2014-10-24T00:00:33Z ijp: about the only thing simpler is not bothering 2014-10-24T00:01:26Z ijp: (that's not a value judgement) 2014-10-24T00:02:03Z leb joined #scheme 2014-10-24T00:05:38Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: alists or plists are usually more efficient than hash-tables, when there are less than 5-30 slots (depending on the lisp implementation). Therefore it is quite reasonable enough to implement an object system using alists or plists, given that there are not too many slots. 2014-10-24T00:06:00Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: but it's most efficient to use instead vectors and indices for the slots. 2014-10-24T00:07:01Z cutgovspend: avoid object oriented programming 2014-10-24T00:07:22Z pjb: cutgovspend: go away gavino! 2014-10-24T00:07:24Z cutgovspend: it is a partiularly bad idea that could only have originated in california 2014-10-24T00:07:30Z ijp: of course, if you have a good hashtable implementation they use a different representation for small hashtables anyway (see e.g. python) 2014-10-24T00:07:39Z cutgovspend: whos gavino? 2014-10-24T00:07:58Z ijp: someone who is not convincing anyone 2014-10-24T00:08:02Z pjb: cutgovspend: OO originated in Norway, dumbo! 2014-10-24T00:08:28Z ijp: simula was norwegian? 2014-10-24T00:08:38Z pjb: Simula inventor was, yes. 2014-10-24T00:08:43Z ijp: til 2014-10-24T00:08:54Z alexei___ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-24T00:08:56Z cutgovspend: djikstra could beg to differ 2014-10-24T00:09:10Z cutgovspend: you know that the inventors of tcp ip inveneted th einternet right? 2014-10-24T00:09:16Z cutgovspend: not berners lee who inveneted the hyperlink 2014-10-24T00:09:31Z cutgovspend: demand side economics doesn't work 2014-10-24T00:09:40Z ijp: seriously, shut the hell up 2014-10-24T00:10:20Z pjb: cutgovspend: the hyperlink was invented by Ted Nelson, dumbo. 2014-10-24T00:10:54Z zRecursive joined #scheme 2014-10-24T00:11:23Z cutgovspend: the fuk it was 2014-10-24T00:11:31Z cutgovspend: germany beat england in 2 world wars 2014-10-24T00:11:34Z cutgovspend: usa saved them 2014-10-24T00:11:38Z _tca: cutgovspend: what about row polymorphism 2014-10-24T00:11:53Z cutgovspend: oo design is the roman numeral of programming 2014-10-24T00:12:11Z _tca: what is oo anyway 2014-10-24T00:12:25Z ijp: drewc: I think I could write a better gavino than gavino 2014-10-24T00:12:42Z Ryan_Burnside: OO to me is nothing more than a nice way to group variables locally. 2014-10-24T00:13:03Z _tca: so oo is records? 2014-10-24T00:13:09Z zRecursive: wish Scheme could make a real applications like Maxima in CL :) 2014-10-24T00:13:17Z drewc: ijp: well, at least you can spell, and your grammar and punctuation seem to be correct... 2014-10-24T00:13:21Z Ryan_Burnside: _tca, more or less 2014-10-24T00:13:32Z Ryan_Burnside: They are just simple hashes in Python from what I gather. 2014-10-24T00:13:45Z _tca: no they arent 2014-10-24T00:13:51Z Ryan_Burnside: Just some wrapping around their dictionary ty[e 2014-10-24T00:14:21Z _tca: do they need mutation 2014-10-24T00:14:40Z _tca: hidden state? 2014-10-24T00:14:55Z ijp: _tca: OO is about as well defined as intelligence 2014-10-24T00:14:57Z cutgovspend: published authors don't worry about niggling punctuation 2014-10-24T00:15:16Z Ryan_Burnside: Sure, there are some additional things but the attributes in it are defined in a dictionary. 2014-10-24T00:15:30Z Ryan_Burnside: You can change them at runtime if you know how to get to it. 2014-10-24T00:15:30Z _tca: you cant really compare them though 2014-10-24T00:15:49Z _tca: because there are good implementations of message passing that are unrelated to that and good implementations of extensible records unrelated to that 2014-10-24T00:16:33Z drewc programs in CL where everything is an object with a class ... does that count as OO? 2014-10-24T00:16:37Z _tca: gavino is 100% right about avoiding OO, row polymorphic records and optimized message passing exist 2014-10-24T00:16:52Z _tca: cl doesn't have OO it has gimped predicate dispatch 2014-10-24T00:17:40Z drewc: _tca: can you explain what you mean by "gimped predicate dispatch"? 2014-10-24T00:17:55Z _tca: amop generics 2014-10-24T00:17:58Z ijp: if you are going to argue about the one true OO can you do it outside? 2014-10-24T00:18:06Z _tca: clos* 2014-10-24T00:18:07Z cutgovspend: whos gavino? 2014-10-24T00:18:31Z cutgovspend: why does common lisp have a loop macro if it has recursion? 2014-10-24T00:18:56Z drewc: cutgovspend: stack 2014-10-24T00:19:15Z _tca: cutgovspend: tail recursion is imperative 2014-10-24T00:19:30Z _tca: it sould be avoided 2014-10-24T00:19:40Z cutgovspend: so all functional programming is shit then? 2014-10-24T00:19:43Z _tca: yes 2014-10-24T00:19:49Z cutgovspend: we might as well write loops 2014-10-24T00:19:56Z _tca: some loops are imperative also 2014-10-24T00:20:06Z drewc: then go for it! Show me the results :P 2014-10-24T00:20:09Z _tca: they need to be proper and declarative 2014-10-24T00:20:18Z _tca: racket's arent any good either 2014-10-24T00:20:53Z _tca: cutgovspend: mercury recursion is good because it isn't imperative 2014-10-24T00:21:09Z _tca: even prolog recursion is imperative its pretty sad 2014-10-24T00:21:21Z ijp: _tca: protip: ignore him 2014-10-24T00:21:27Z cutgovspend: https://metacpan.org/pod/release/XSAWYERX/Dancer2-0.153000/lib/Dancer2.pm what do you think if this? 2014-10-24T00:23:39Z _tca: i think it sucks cutgovspend the web sucks 2014-10-24T00:23:56Z cutgovspend: with schemes abstractions powers 2014-10-24T00:24:07Z cutgovspend: maybe it can be ported to scheme in 10% the code 2014-10-24T00:24:26Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-10-24T00:24:28Z _tca: we could replace the web in 10% of the code of that 1 web framework 2014-10-24T00:25:35Z cutgovspend: I wonder if sunet and scsh will be updated for amd64 2014-10-24T00:25:42Z cutgovspend: sunet seems pretty awesome 2014-10-24T00:25:43Z _tca: have you seen http and html cutgovspend ??? why would those be invented when s-expressions already existed and are far superior 2014-10-24T00:25:54Z ijp: lol 2014-10-24T00:26:05Z _tca: javascript for scripting? but scheme is already there? 2014-10-24T00:26:56Z cutgovspend: flash seems bigger than a gambit scheme interpreter..... 2014-10-24T00:27:14Z cutgovspend: I mean with 4 metal posts filled with concrete 2014-10-24T00:27:34Z cutgovspend: you can slap thin metal on top and plasic walls and make a cheap mass produced house for 7000$US 2014-10-24T00:27:52Z cutgovspend: disrupt the housing indistry 2014-10-24T00:29:10Z cutgovspend: I bet a cooler browser could be engineered in scheme 2014-10-24T00:29:22Z _tca: do you know dijkstra cutgovspend 2014-10-24T00:29:26Z cutgovspend: then servers could utilize the underlying scheme interpreter for more dynamic sites 2014-10-24T00:29:36Z _tca: about recursion, he knew it was bad 2014-10-24T00:29:47Z cutgovspend: no I haven't read my Dijstra book, Ive been meaning to 2014-10-24T00:29:49Z _tca: see his dude construct 2014-10-24T00:29:52Z _tca: which book? 2014-10-24T00:30:01Z cutgovspend: structured programming 2014-10-24T00:30:10Z _tca: oh i dont have that one 2014-10-24T00:30:11Z _tca: i have another 2014-10-24T00:30:14Z cutgovspend: he had something called eiffel 2014-10-24T00:30:16Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-10-24T00:30:22Z cutgovspend: I wonder what happened to eiffel 2014-10-24T00:31:08Z _tca: here cutgovspend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarded_Command_Language#Repetition:_do 2014-10-24T00:31:29Z _tca: this is good loop better than recursion 2014-10-24T00:31:33Z cutgovspend: http://supervert.com/elibrary/marquis_de_sade/120_days_of_sodom here tca 2014-10-24T00:31:56Z _tca: iove read this before 2014-10-24T00:32:01Z Ryan_Burnside: The Internet is a log cabin built of turds. 2014-10-24T00:32:04Z _tca: wasnt that good 2014-10-24T00:32:47Z cutgovspend: big plastic blocks can be filled with concrete or dirt and shaped into a house very durible 2014-10-24T00:33:02Z Ryan_Burnside: _tca, I've also wondered why the sexp was not used instead of HTML. 2014-10-24T00:33:33Z Ryan_Burnside: But it has the "scary parens" 2014-10-24T00:33:56Z Ryan_Burnside: And people just feel more comfortable with repeating the tag for each nested piece twice. 2014-10-24T00:33:58Z _tca: Ryan_Burnside: the obvious thing to see is that you basically want to get rid of the need to escape strings 2014-10-24T00:33:59Z Ryan_Burnside: -_- 2014-10-24T00:34:10Z _tca: but at the same time when he made html he never intended humans to write it 2014-10-24T00:34:22Z _tca: said so himself, and the first browser was also a wyswig editor because of it 2014-10-24T00:34:36Z Ryan_Burnside: Now we are tricking browsers into being virtual machines for something that was supposed to be for flat scholarly documents. 2014-10-24T00:34:39Z _tca: http too 2014-10-24T00:34:45Z cutgovspend: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/java alternatives line is a howl 2014-10-24T00:34:49Z _tca: why come up with some bulshit hard to parse ascii garbage isntead of something structured 2014-10-24T00:35:07Z _tca: makes no sense 2014-10-24T00:35:35Z Ryan_Burnside: I don't like the modern browser be the "ultimate solution" to portability. 2014-10-24T00:35:42Z TrueShiftBlue joined #scheme 2014-10-24T00:35:43Z Ryan_Burnside: I still like to own a program. 2014-10-24T00:35:59Z _tca: you still can 2014-10-24T00:36:09Z _tca: its closer to that than it was with more javascript on the client side 2014-10-24T00:36:37Z _tca: it would have been from the start if they just used scheme which was already as fast as javascript is now after the years of hard work 2014-10-24T00:36:50Z cutgovspend: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/node.js 2014-10-24T00:36:54Z _tca: and would be faster with the hard work into a proper language instead 2014-10-24T00:37:52Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-10-24T00:38:14Z Ryan_Burnside: Unfortunately too much of The Internet relies on proprietary plugins. 2014-10-24T00:38:28Z Ryan_Burnside: I'd like a single monolithic language rather than 10. 2014-10-24T00:39:00Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-10-24T00:39:03Z cutgovspend: I wish there was a tek job website that showed A compensation B had no "recruiters" 2014-10-24T00:39:08Z Ryan_Burnside: Then all the hipsters in their damn skinny jeans and knit hats and square glasses would lament. 2014-10-24T00:39:21Z cutgovspend: What book do you think is best for learning scheme the right way? 2014-10-24T00:39:56Z cutgovspend: I want to make a movie where hipsters have to work together or die, like saw. 2014-10-24T00:40:06Z _tca: the th ing about having a single language is that it can be more simple and the other languages can compile to it 2014-10-24T00:40:08Z Ryan_Burnside: And they can't use javascript. 2014-10-24T00:40:13Z cutgovspend: hipster to me is a synonym for nerd 2014-10-24T00:40:17Z Ryan_Burnside: Truly torture for them. 2014-10-24T00:40:17Z _tca: which is what they are doing with javascript even though it is a horrible language for encoding semantics 2014-10-24T00:40:50Z Ryan_Burnside: Hipsters write terrible "code" in web programming languages with no back ground in computer science. And think easing and visual effects are more important that the site working well. 2014-10-24T00:40:51Z ijp quit (Quit: enough stupidity for one night) 2014-10-24T00:41:04Z Ryan_Burnside: *background 2014-10-24T00:41:52Z _tca: its thef ault of what they were given 2014-10-24T00:41:54Z cutgovspend: now I don't have a compsci degree, what is the most important thing to learn as a programmer without a compsci degree? 2014-10-24T00:41:58Z Ryan_Burnside: The kind of people who build "apps" by gluing huge chunks of library together and having no skill beyond gluing huge frameworks together. 2014-10-24T00:42:00Z _tca: if they were given scheme they would be able to make great things 2014-10-24T00:42:23Z cutgovspend: I want to make good things, maybe great if I can... 2014-10-24T00:42:26Z turbofail: no, if they were given scheme they would be able to spend all their time making scheme implementations because they would never be able to agree on anything 2014-10-24T00:42:32Z _tca: if scheme was the standard browser scripting language then there would be proper teaching material and the whole world would be ahead in technology by about 10 years 2014-10-24T00:42:34Z turbofail: incompatible scheme implementations i mean 2014-10-24T00:42:54Z Ryan_Burnside: They would just replace the parens with XML tags and call it more intuitive and modern. Then parse it with some Java XML parser. 2014-10-24T00:42:56Z turbofail: just like how it happened in reality 2014-10-24T00:43:08Z cutgovspend: lol 2014-10-24T00:43:11Z Ryan_Burnside: Seriousl. 2014-10-24T00:43:13Z _tca: xml isnt that bad 2014-10-24T00:43:14Z turbofail: speaking of reality we should probably try and drag ourselves back there 2014-10-24T00:43:14Z Ryan_Burnside: *seriously. 2014-10-24T00:43:18Z bpalmer joined #scheme 2014-10-24T00:43:21Z _tca: it was allowing malformed xml that really killed it 2014-10-24T00:43:25Z cutgovspend: I heard xml is very very bad. 2014-10-24T00:43:35Z _tca: and then not actually supporting xml 2014-10-24T00:43:39Z _tca: stuff like xslt 2014-10-24T00:43:50Z _tca: look at 2014 they are introducing "web components" 2014-10-24T00:43:53Z cutgovspend: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/ 2014-10-24T00:43:54Z Ryan_Burnside: Don't know if anyone has worked in xpath but it is absolute hell. 2014-10-24T00:43:56Z zRecursive: not so bad as it is more descriptive by itself 2014-10-24T00:44:02Z _tca: whats wrong with xpath 2014-10-24T00:44:08Z gnomon: Ryan_Burnside, yup, I've had to deal with XPath. I likely will have to again. 2014-10-24T00:44:28Z Ryan_Burnside: Needs to be more of a programming language and less of a query language. 2014-10-24T00:44:28Z gnomon: XPath learned nothing from Shivers's tre. 2014-10-24T00:44:33Z cutgovspend: Am I the only one here who has never developed a working dynamic website, unless you count installing stuff like jira, workpress, sugarcrm, osticket 2014-10-24T00:44:33Z Ryan_Burnside: temp vars etc for string building 2014-10-24T00:44:43Z cutgovspend: I feel small brained 2014-10-24T00:44:49Z gnomon: Er, Shivers's trx. 2014-10-24T00:44:56Z zRecursive left #scheme 2014-10-24T00:45:07Z Ryan_Burnside: I abstain from web programming. 2014-10-24T00:46:03Z Ryan_Burnside: Oracle has really pushed XML into the professional world. Now the kids make EVERYTHING XML. I've seen people store individual pixels in xml tags. 2014-10-24T00:46:21Z cutgovspend: I can rip apart a text file, use tcl string operations to rearrange and print almost anything, but the whole cgi and getting the web request, breaking it into pieces, and making some kinda query from that and returning the result....kinda don't know 2014-10-24T00:46:23Z Ryan_Burnside: Thanks Java. 2014-10-24T00:46:28Z turbofail: kids these days! 2014-10-24T00:46:30Z cutgovspend: if it was as easy as printing the raw html 2014-10-24T00:46:54Z cutgovspend: I mean I can do a blog by hand with 4 html tags. 2014-10-24T00:46:55Z Ryan_Burnside: 9-5 "developers" with no respect for the CPU and file size. 2014-10-24T00:47:01Z cutgovspend: and can script updates n all 2014-10-24T00:47:06Z cutgovspend: but cant do it for web yet 2014-10-24T00:47:26Z Ryan_Burnside: Tcl wasn't such a bad idea. 2014-10-24T00:47:54Z Ryan_Burnside: It was a good attempt for a portable standard for GUIs. 2014-10-24T00:47:59Z Ryan_Burnside: Which the world still needs. 2014-10-24T00:48:18Z gnomon: Ryan_Burnside, I think you're thinking of Tk. 2014-10-24T00:48:51Z cutgovspend: siag office was an impressive scheme app 2014-10-24T00:49:52Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2014-10-24T00:51:42Z cutgovspend: do you have the confidence when you see an app in I dunno say perl, that it could be better in scheme? 2014-10-24T00:53:34Z cutgovspend: firefox is portable standard gui as it stands 2014-10-24T00:54:18Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-10-24T00:57:52Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-24T01:00:51Z Niac joined #scheme 2014-10-24T01:02:24Z tcsc joined #scheme 2014-10-24T01:20:14Z tobik quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-24T01:21:38Z tobik joined #scheme 2014-10-24T01:44:53Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2014-10-24T01:59:56Z guampa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-24T02:06:56Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-24T02:13:00Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-24T02:15:38Z brianmwaters joined #scheme 2014-10-24T02:24:02Z Ryan_Burnside: I think the people who program in perl are usually craftsmen. 2014-10-24T02:24:13Z Ryan_Burnside: In that they tend to be programmers that value their work. 2014-10-24T02:27:45Z antonv` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-24T02:30:07Z brianmwaters: ...I do not know any people that program in perl, but I can say that most of the perl code I've seen tends to be pretty craft-y, so I guess that's a +1 2014-10-24T02:30:46Z Ryan_Burnside: There can be a big difference between a guy who programs for work and hates it and a person who hacks code for their own pleasure. 2014-10-24T02:31:10Z Ryan_Burnside: Certain languages are more for hackers than 9-5ers. 2014-10-24T02:31:30Z Ryan_Burnside: Perl kind of falls into that category. Lisp very much falls into that category. 2014-10-24T02:31:53Z Ryan_Burnside: C#, Java, and Visual Brainsick seem to be more for 9-5ers. But not always. 2014-10-24T02:31:59Z brianmwaters: yeah. the difference in perspective between hackers, academics, and programmers can be amusing, illuminating, if not frustrating at times. 2014-10-24T02:32:29Z brianmwaters: at one point, I assume perl was very much for 9-5'ers. but that was a bit before my time, mostly. 2014-10-24T02:32:48Z Ryan_Burnside: Well I think for a lot of Unix web servers perhaps. 2014-10-24T02:33:05Z Ryan_Burnside: CGI stuff 2014-10-24T02:33:17Z brianmwaters: it's true, though. a lot of the lisp hackers I know are unemployed, stay-at-home parents, or work in other industries 2014-10-24T02:33:30Z brianmwaters: myself included 2014-10-24T02:35:27Z brianmwaters: ...not that i have hacked much lisp in ~6 months, heh 2014-10-24T02:46:28Z jcloud quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-24T02:48:13Z jcloud joined #scheme 2014-10-24T02:56:57Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-10-24T03:12:28Z leb joined #scheme 2014-10-24T03:13:29Z brianmwaters: you could literally think of a million bajillion ways to do it. so signature-based detection will not catch 100% of traffic. there are statistical/machine learning methods too, but those have false positives and false negatives. 2014-10-24T03:13:37Z brianmwaters: oops wrong channel!!!!! 2014-10-24T03:14:01Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2014-10-24T03:14:09Z jusss joined #scheme 2014-10-24T03:24:05Z cutgovspend: this djikstra thingsabout provable program proff whizz over my head 2014-10-24T03:24:05Z cutgovspend: hoare logic!! woa 2014-10-24T03:35:12Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-24T03:39:46Z work_op quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-24T03:40:18Z Ryan_Burnside: Maybe I'll work on my LOGO library for GIMP more... 2014-10-24T03:40:26Z Ryan_Burnside: Not sure what additional features I should be working on though. 2014-10-24T03:41:28Z tadni joined #scheme 2014-10-24T03:58:25Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-24T04:08:36Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-24T04:12:31Z bjz joined 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that's enough for tonight. 2014-10-24T07:30:35Z Ryan_Burnside: Not even sure it will be used by the Gimp guys. 2014-10-24T07:30:39Z BossKonaSegwaY quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-24T07:30:41Z Ryan_Burnside: I used it for me, and that is enough. 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z 17SAAO8YG joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z certainty joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z mark_weaver joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z girrig joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z mutley89 joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z arrdem joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z ventonegro joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z karswell` joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z amoe joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z klltkr joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z rtra joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z aap_ joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z Sgeo joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z dsp joined #scheme 2014-10-24T07:32:23Z rsf joined #scheme 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rule the world through a trading card game) 2014-10-24T17:38:04Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-10-24T17:40:39Z pera quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-24T17:41:41Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-10-24T17:43:48Z Riastradh: wingo: Your TLS write-up is famous! 2014-10-24T17:43:55Z Riastradh: I guess you already knew that, though. 2014-10-24T17:43:58Z wingo: is it! 2014-10-24T17:44:07Z wingo: it hit a nerve tho it seems :) 2014-10-24T17:44:26Z wingo: Riastradh: safe trip back to boston? 2014-10-24T17:44:34Z wingo: i mean i guess yes 2014-10-24T17:44:35Z Riastradh: Yep, safe and uneventful. 2014-10-24T17:44:37Z wingo: you can type 2014-10-24T17:44:54Z wingo: a smarter question would be "good trip" or whatever 2014-10-24T17:44:56Z wingo: anyway :) 2014-10-24T17:45:11Z Riastradh: Didn't get stuck in any podunk middle-of-nowhere Atlantean border town with no languages in common on a flight to Paraguay or anything. 2014-10-24T17:48:25Z kongtomorrow quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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