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2014-10-13T13:17:18Z BitPuffin: hoi
2014-10-13T13:18:00Z BitPuffin: Anyone know what C version prescheme targets
2014-10-13T13:18:10Z BitPuffin: I'm considering writing my compiler in prescheme
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2014-10-13T14:28:36Z LeoNerd: Random thoughts: call/cc.. and how horrible it is. Are there any sufficiently compelling use-cases for it, that would justify its inclusion in an implementation that otherwise wanted to avoid it and replace it with, say, call/ec and friends..?
2014-10-13T14:29:00Z LeoNerd: By removing call/cc I can place a whole tonne of guarantees on runtime behaviour that its mere presence would remove
2014-10-13T14:29:07Z vanila: I think that basically there's nothing good about call/cc
2014-10-13T14:29:18Z LeoNerd: Hmm.. Other than its presence in r5
2014-10-13T14:29:28Z LeoNerd: So you can't claim to be an r5 impl. without it
2014-10-13T14:29:45Z vanila: one neat thing is that the CPS semantics of callcc are in CPS
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2014-10-13T14:30:00Z vanila: so you can very easy add this to a CPS based implementation of scheme
2014-10-13T14:30:11Z vanila: that's not true of reset/shift
2014-10-13T14:31:25Z LeoNerd: hmm
2014-10-13T14:33:53Z taylanub: LeoNerd: AFAIK what you want to do is implement delimited continuations, then implement call/cc in terms of those
2014-10-13T14:34:24Z LeoNerd: Yeah but even the delimited ones are still annoying for things like TCMC
2014-10-13T14:34:30Z LeoNerd: I just like the idea of TCMC
2014-10-13T14:34:44Z LeoNerd: (well and other generalisations of it).. I like the idea of guarded mutations
2014-10-13T14:34:53Z taylanub: what's TCMC?
2014-10-13T14:35:14Z LeoNerd: tailcall-modulo-cons
2014-10-13T14:35:36Z LeoNerd: The idea that   (cons head (tailcall ...))  would be a tailcall if not for the cons.
2014-10-13T14:35:49Z taylanub: ah, I heard/read about that before but don't remember...
2014-10-13T14:36:01Z LeoNerd: So what you do is you arrange for the cons to be returned anyway, and tailcall to the nested function call with a special arrangement to ensure that the return value ends up in the right place
2014-10-13T14:36:49Z LeoNerd: Effectively it lets you build and return a list efficiently, by having the implementation arrange for the "head and tail pointer" logic to happen automatically underneath you, while just writing code that would still work "normally", albeit less efficiently
2014-10-13T14:37:20Z vanila: it's a clever optimization
2014-10-13T14:37:27Z LeoNerd: There are other generalisations, such as   (+ 1 (tailcall ...))
2014-10-13T14:37:52Z vanila: I wonder if we could use delimited continuations to implement TCMC functions more easilty
2014-10-13T14:38:00Z vanila: rather than asking the compiler to do them
2014-10-13T14:38:05Z LeoNerd: Amusingly gcc can already turn that form of code into a tailcall :)    int strlen(char *s) { if(!*s) return 0; return 1 + strlen(s+1); }  <== becomes a tailcall
2014-10-13T14:38:10Z vanila: (or manually turning them into it)
2014-10-13T14:38:22Z vanila: LeoNerd, I saw this recently! gcc is very powerful
2014-10-13T14:38:28Z taylanub: so it's like turning  (define (a) (cons 'x (b)))  (define (b) 'y)  into  (define (a) (b 'x))  (define (b x) (cons x 'y))  ?
2014-10-13T14:38:28Z LeoNerd: vanila: The primary problem with TCMC is that it doesn't play nicely with call/cc if there's any sort of chance of multiple invocation
2014-10-13T14:38:42Z vanila: yeah that's a good point
2014-10-13T14:38:54Z LeoNerd: But of course call/ec doesn't have that problem because call/ec doesn't guarantee you can invoke the continuation more than once.
2014-10-13T14:39:00Z LeoNerd: Atmost once is the rule.. which is fine against TCMC
2014-10-13T14:39:03Z vanila: but I can rewrite e.g. MAP into a tail call function that works the same except when call/cc or similar are involved
2014-10-13T14:39:33Z LeoNerd: yah; well the traditional way to do it is to pass a cons cell as an accumulator into your tailcall, and have each iteration do a (set-cdr! ) on it
2014-10-13T14:39:37Z ELLIOTTCABLE: you called?
2014-10-13T14:39:40Z taylanub: LeoNerd: can use of delimited continuations not be optimized to let/ec through static analysis?
2014-10-13T14:39:42Z LeoNerd: That is effectively exactly what TCMC is doing underneath
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2014-10-13T14:39:57Z ex: goddamnit iPhone
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2014-10-13T14:40:34Z LeoNerd: taylanub: Only if they're lexically scoped like that. My thinking is that an implementation can easily detect not a single instance of call/cc but only call/ec by a very simple global flag internally
2014-10-13T14:40:44Z LeoNerd: Provided that flag is still clear, you knwo you're safe to TCMC
2014-10-13T14:40:59Z LeoNerd: The moment anyone anywhere tries to call/cc then all bets are off and you have to go the slow way round
2014-10-13T14:41:19Z LeoNerd: It's like those impls that detect a lack of set-car! and set-cdr!
2014-10-13T14:41:34Z LeoNerd: If that's the case then lists are immutable and again lots of fun trickery can come into play
2014-10-13T14:42:23Z LeoNerd: So my thought is more along the lines of: what interesting trickery do I cut off by telling people "thou shalt not use call/cc for it is evil and will break all my optimisations"
2014-10-13T14:42:23Z ec: since my name's in it … what's call/ec? I'm very familiar with continuations (although not much of a lisper), but I've never heard of it.
2014-10-13T14:42:46Z LeoNerd: call/ec is syntactically exactly like the generic call/cc, but it only guarantees you can invoke the continuation at-most once
2014-10-13T14:42:55Z LeoNerd: It lets you implement 'return' semantics familar from C-like languages
2014-10-13T14:43:01Z ec: gotcha.
2014-10-13T14:43:09Z LeoNerd: (call/ec (lambda (return) (body here and at some point we  (return 123)) )
2014-10-13T14:43:38Z ec: my own language work involves something like that; although instead of only being invokable once, they're only invokable at a given *location* once.
2014-10-13T14:43:53Z LeoNerd: You can still pass the 'return' cont into your own callees if you like, but if you didn't invoke it by the time you return from the body normally, you're not allowed to use it ever.
2014-10-13T14:44:10Z vanila: ec: Are you writing ac ompiler
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2014-10-13T14:44:30Z LeoNerd: So call/ec is much nicer on such trickery as TCMC because it doesn't allow code to be invoked multiple times, unlike some abuses of call/cc does
2014-10-13T14:44:45Z ec: vanila: nope, my work's too exotic to be compiled yet. Just simple vms and interpreters, for now.
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2014-10-13T14:45:32Z LeoNerd: It's short for "call-with-escape-contiunation", by the way.
2014-10-13T14:47:35Z _tca: LeoNerd: most of the uses for continuations require calling it multiple times
2014-10-13T14:47:46Z LeoNerd: Oh?
2014-10-13T14:48:28Z ecraven: LeoNerd: but it's hard to do for example those continuation web framework thing with call/ec :-/
2014-10-13T14:48:31Z _tca: yea you cant do anything coroutine-like with call/ec which is just a fancy name for exceptions, catch/throw
2014-10-13T14:48:40Z LeoNerd: Oh I wonder if I could tag every closure with a "TCMC-safe" bit...
2014-10-13T14:49:05Z LeoNerd: So dynamically trace the places known to be safe to apply it
2014-10-13T14:52:02Z taylanub: escape continuations trivially implement at least: continue, break, return, and exceptions (non-continuable).  and they do it better; with let/ec you can return from any "block" of code and not just the whole function.  you can also return to any outer block if you're within nested returnable blocks...  it's really neat.
2014-10-13T14:52:38Z taylanub: (let/ec return1 ... (let/ec return2 ... (return1 'foo))) => foo
2014-10-13T14:52:56Z LeoNerd: Yes; I'm aware of the arguments in favour of /ec. What I'm asking about is what they can't do that a more generic /cc can do, and if those things are sufficient enough argument to warrant my retaining full /cc ability
2014-10-13T14:53:12Z vanila: what about (let/ec x (lambda (x) (return x)))?
2014-10-13T14:53:35Z vanila: LeoNerd, There is an argument for reset/shift as primitives
2014-10-13T14:53:42Z taylanub: vanila: did you mean (let/ec return (lambda (x) (return x))) ?
2014-10-13T14:53:51Z ELLIOTTCABLE: continuations are a useful and powerful abstraction. (real ones, not /ec, which sounds like throw couched in schemey terms, not a real continuation at all)
2014-10-13T14:53:52Z vanila: taylanub, yeah!
2014-10-13T14:53:56Z LeoNerd: Yes but if I recall, reset/shift still allows multiple reinvocation and thus will still break TCMC
2014-10-13T14:54:07Z taylanub: vanila: that would be the same as call/ec, i.e. call/cc but you can use the cont. only once
2014-10-13T14:54:22Z LeoNerd: ELLIOTTCABLE: Yes, this is my questoin: you claim "useful and powerful" - useful for what? I'd like to see examples
2014-10-13T14:54:25Z vanila: LeoNerd, yes - that's true but I was thinking maybe you can write TCMC functions as genuine tail calls using these operators
2014-10-13T14:54:34Z vanila: then you wouldn't need the optimization
2014-10-13T14:54:52Z ELLIOTTCABLE: LeoNerd: I mean … beyond what you get from basically googling "continuations?"
2014-10-13T14:55:13Z LeoNerd: ELLIOTTCABLE: Most things I find are trivial introductions or things that call/ec can do just as well
2014-10-13T14:55:24Z LeoNerd: I want to see something realworld and practical
2014-10-13T14:55:28Z ELLIOTTCABLE: (I'm on my phone 'cuz keep getting hilighted by "ec" … but am surprised I need to defend the usefulness of continuations in a *scheme* channel, of all places)
2014-10-13T14:55:30Z taylanub: vanila: no wait .. I think that breaks.  you're meant to keep 'return' from escaping like that
2014-10-13T14:55:41Z _tca: LeoNerd: most everything i see is coroutines
2014-10-13T14:55:58Z LeoNerd: Hrm.. But aren't there other nice ways to recreate coroutines, again without needing a fully generic call/cc ?
2014-10-13T14:56:11Z _tca: nope
2014-10-13T14:56:19Z ELLIOTTCABLE: okay, well, ignoring scheme-specific implementations and continuation-specific semantics, let's just talk multiple-invocation flow-control applications:
2014-10-13T14:56:53Z _tca: LeoNerd: well shift/reset not call/cc
2014-10-13T14:56:56Z vanila: LeoNerd, I don't think there's any use of call/cc that isnt' done better by reset/shift - except..  a couple realyl weird things like proving that LETREC does mutation
2014-10-13T14:56:58Z _tca: call/cc obviously shouldn't exist
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2014-10-13T14:57:01Z vanila: but these are just theoretical
2014-10-13T14:57:27Z LeoNerd: Hm..
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2014-10-13T14:57:59Z LeoNerd: Well, that makes the problem slightly simpler, because shift/reset only breaks TCMC if it's actually in the "stack scope" at the time, for want of a better word
2014-10-13T14:58:00Z vanila: taylanub, I think there's something terrible about call/ec then - you need a type system or something to ensure it doesn't escape.. it seems dangerous to just say "Hey programmer: Don't let ec escape"
2014-10-13T14:58:15Z ELLIOTTCABLE: multiple-return-ish scenarios allow for useful (hell, straight-up *slick*) call-patterns for APIs (a server library that says "I'll return every time I get a request", typed primitives that flow clearer than callbacks);
2014-10-13T14:58:26Z vanila: This is the nice thing about most scheme operators, they're totally unrestricted
2014-10-13T14:58:43Z LeoNerd: vanila: taylanub: you can fairly trivially just mark the escape cont. as dead if its creator call/ec returned, then if anyone does attempt to invoke it that's an instant fail
2014-10-13T14:59:03Z _tca: so call/ec is dynamic extent
2014-10-13T14:59:31Z LeoNerd: Yes; I think the entire nature of the idea of "escape" is dynamic
2014-10-13T14:59:48Z _tca: well its the opposite of dynamic
2014-10-13T15:00:16Z ELLIOTTCABLE: there are plenty of realtime or asynchronous tasks that are much less complex in implementation with multiple-return structures: the sorts of things for which you traditionally assign "listeners" or "callbacks" are no longer necessary, because you can simply call them directly, allowing them to pass events or generated results directly *back* to you,
2014-10-13T15:00:22Z LeoNerd: It says "take me away from this place back to where I was earlier"
2014-10-13T15:00:52Z _tca: call/ec and call/cc both aren't dynamic where catch/throw and shift/reset are
2014-10-13T15:00:53Z ELLIOTTCABLE: then of course there's an entire body of coroutine benefits, reachable with continuation-style implementations of multiple-return
2014-10-13T15:01:46Z LeoNerd: I'm failing to understand your assertion that call/ec isn't dynamic
2014-10-13T15:02:07Z vanila: well is dynamic a formal term here?
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2014-10-13T15:02:30Z LeoNerd: Especially in the face of your then statement that catch/throw -are- dynamic, when catch/throw can be implemented easily using call/ec
2014-10-13T15:03:08Z taylanub: LeoNerd: ec are limited not only in that they can be invoked once ... or rather, passing "normally" through a continuation also counts as invoking it, meaning that (let/ec foo (set! some-place foo)) will not work; the foo continuation will already have been "called" through the (let/ec ...) form returning normally
2014-10-13T15:03:27Z taylanub: LeoNerd: hence, it kind of has "static" scope, but not sure if that's why _tca called it non-dynamic
2014-10-13T15:03:35Z _tca: it is
2014-10-13T15:03:54Z LeoNerd: Yeah that's not what I think dynamic means
2014-10-13T15:04:09Z vanila: I think R7RS dropped the ball allowing the tyranny of call/cc to continue, it was time to move to reset/shift
2014-10-13T15:04:24Z taylanub: well yeah, it still doesn't have static scope as in lexical scope, because it's still a first-class object which you can pass into a lower stack frame and call from there
2014-10-13T15:04:34Z LeoNerd: I think call/ec is dynamic because you have to inspect the runtime actual historical state of a real running program, in order to work out "where" the invocation of a call/ec continuation will actually take you; you can't just statically analyse the source of the program
2014-10-13T15:04:45Z LeoNerd: In the general case of it being passed into callees, I mean
2014-10-13T15:04:57Z LeoNerd: Obviously in some limited cases if you don't pass it around anywhere you can do it statically
2014-10-13T15:05:00Z _tca: yea you can because it is dynamic extend
2014-10-13T15:05:04Z _tca: extent*
2014-10-13T15:05:31Z _tca: and you have the actual binding to the "prompt" unlike catch/throw which use a runtime object
2014-10-13T15:06:00Z LeoNerd: Is throw-catch not just a call/ec combined with fluid-let or similar
2014-10-13T15:06:01Z LeoNerd: ?
2014-10-13T15:06:15Z _tca: fluid-let aka dynamic binding
2014-10-13T15:06:22Z _tca: adding the dynamic part :>
2014-10-13T15:07:17Z LeoNerd: Hmm.. but is dynamicness not "leaky", in the sense that if some feature when combined with a dynamic feature, is itself dynamic, then the original must have been dynamic too?
2014-10-13T15:07:22Z LeoNerd: Sticky, for want of a better word
2014-10-13T15:07:41Z LeoNerd: Whereas a lexical binding of say, a plain 'let', can be fully explained by only static lexical effects
2014-10-13T15:08:12Z LeoNerd: I don't know; maybe we're splitting hairs here.
2014-10-13T15:08:52Z _tca: its not terminology i made up... if you read the papers on delimited continuations they all make it clear the difference in runtime behavior of these different continuation types and why delimited are dynamic
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2014-10-13T15:17:55Z vanila: I thought shift/reset were not dynamic, but had dynamic counterparts
2014-10-13T15:18:03Z vanila: and they each macro-expressible as each other
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2014-10-13T15:18:19Z vanila: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/ftp/techreports/TR611.pdf
2014-10-13T15:18:56Z vanila: oh, it's reset/shift that are dynamic - and "control" static
2014-10-13T15:32:17Z _tca: btw LeoNerd dylan took that approach, they only have that dynamic-extend return style via: block (return) return(1) end; and CL-style resumable exceptions
2014-10-13T15:32:21Z _tca: extent*
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2014-10-13T15:33:09Z _tca: and right now they are suffering because of it as they have no coroutines to do net stuff with
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2014-10-13T17:10:14Z 
2014-10-13T17:10:14Z names: ccl-logbot jlongster dmiles_afk kuribas MichaelRaskin przl kwmiebach developernotes drdanmaku sheilong araujo fridim_ iterrogo stepnem lrs taylanub vanila oleo BitPuffin petercommand _5kg pnkfelix jeapostrophe Natch rsf DerGuteMoritz dpk fgudin Razz DGASAU daviid oldskirt Vutral acieroid epsylon Soft pjdelport aoh rtra wingo guampa Guest92400 BossKonaSegwaY tadni_ ivanshmakov effy amgarchIn9 tobik aretecode peterhil renopt diginet niklasl offby1 ineiros
2014-10-13T17:10:14Z names: ByronJohnson leo2007 leif emma hiyosi acarrico fikusz Kryo Saeren serhart aranhoide tali713 Sgeo Kabaka pjb joneshf-laptop finnrobi nowhere_man leppie jkraemer juanfra tessier aking mornfall zacts ivan\ cdidd carc jeremyheiler weinholt defanor fizzie FracV noncom frkout c74d cataska bb010g omefire1 cam joast byte48 greghendershott ELLIOTTCABLE superjudge arbscht balkamos benaiah gabot joneshf Khisanth C-Keen cky utkarsh aap_ haroldwu dan64 samth
2014-10-13T17:10:14Z names: dytrivedi_ mrowe_away ft girrig eMBee gnomon turbofail teiresias kbtr_ micro^ duncanm akp eli Blkt vukcrni clog ggherdov akkad cross alezost aksatac gluegadget choas_ Neet mark_weaver edw poucet GGMethos abbe Nshag dsp certainty _tca Kruppe sethalves arrdem sigjuice Riviera ohama tsuyoshi SirDayBat necronian rudybot ski copec jrslepak zbigniew_ tstc fadein averell kilimanjaro nitrix gf3 stamourv Intensity ecraven z0d antoszka twem2_ rotty_ LeoNerd SHODAN
2014-10-13T17:10:14Z names: dca cjh`_ amoe xian eagleflo klutometis evhan yosafbridge sung_ ctindall pchrist asumu cibs
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2014-10-13T19:42:42Z zacts: hi schemers
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2014-10-13T19:45:47Z vanila: hi
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2014-10-13T20:00:07Z _tca: hello schemer
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