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2014-10-03T03:24:28Z Alestan: So I've heard references to implementing domain specific languages in scheme, but now when I go looking I can't find much on how to do it...  Anyone got some advice for a newbie?
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2014-10-03T06:29:13Z ecraven: Alestan: one way is by extending the language to include whatever your dsl needs
2014-10-03T06:29:33Z ecraven: so if you want a DSL for describing picture manipulations, you do what SICP (or some other textbooks) do
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2014-10-03T09:14:35Z CaptainRant: Has string-copy any use other than it may be distinct from its input ?
2014-10-03T09:14:46Z CaptainRant: *the output string
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2014-10-03T09:14:56Z taylanub: Alestan: you just use macros.  you can make EDLSs (embedded DSLs) in other languages too; it's just that you'll be limited by the fact that you have to do everything via function-calls.  sometimes function calls aren't adequate to fully abstract something, which is where macros come in play
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2014-10-03T09:15:30Z taylanub: CaptainRant: since strings are mutable, that's indeed its only purpose.  if strings were immutable, there would be no string-copy
2014-10-03T09:16:20Z CaptainRant: So if i avoid mutations, i don't need to worry ?
2014-10-03T09:17:03Z taylanub: if you don't make use of any operations that mutate strings, you won't ever need string-copy
2014-10-03T09:17:31Z taylanub: (that includes any APIs which might mutate strings implicitly...)
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2014-10-03T15:46:30Z CaptainRant: To which point the syntax can be extended ? It feels like the semantics are extended rather than the syntax
2014-10-03T15:46:55Z taylanub: CaptainRant: ?
2014-10-03T15:47:37Z CaptainRant: Using syntax-rules and all this features. Are they really able to extend the syntax, or just influence their semantics ?
2014-10-03T15:48:47Z taylanub: depends on how you define syntax and semantics respectively I guess.  but given that macros are always implemented in terms of other constructs existing in the language, you could say they add no semantics.  indeed they're mostly seen as "syntax extensions"
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2014-10-03T15:53:50Z vanila: syntax rules lets you define new macros
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2014-10-03T16:00:15Z ilammy: CaptainRant, Lisp-like languages have two layers of syntax
2014-10-03T16:00:59Z ilammy: the one is so-called 'extenal representation' which codifies all those rules like 'lists are written in parenthesis'
2014-10-03T16:01:42Z ilammy: and the other one is the syntax of forms, which is codified by special forms, procedure calls, and macros
2014-10-03T16:02:29Z ilammy: You cannot extend semantics of forms via macros. There are only special forms and procedures calls in the end. This cannot be changed in any way.
2014-10-03T16:03:19Z ilammy: But of course any macro and expression has its own implied semantics which is obtained by combining the semantics of its parts.
2014-10-03T16:05:49Z ilammy: Well, this is mostly terminological question... to treat abstractions as having their own semantics or not.
2014-10-03T16:06:31Z ilammy: I'd rather say that macros are 'syntactical abstractions' rather than extension.
2014-10-03T16:06:35Z theseb: SAY!!! i read that R6RS will introduce unhygenic macros to scheme?!?!?
2014-10-03T16:06:37Z theseb: is that right?
2014-10-03T16:06:55Z CaptainRant: Isn't R7RS what the cool kids use nowadays ?
2014-10-03T16:07:01Z theseb: old skool macros are coming back???
2014-10-03T16:07:01Z ilammy: Just like records, lists, vectors are data abstraction, and procedures are behavioral abstractions.
2014-10-03T16:07:02Z theseb: why?
2014-10-03T16:07:24Z vanila: syntactic-closures are good
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2014-10-03T16:08:51Z ilammy: theseb, I thought 'old skool' macros are stuff like define-macro from CL and rusty fexprs
2014-10-03T16:09:21Z ilammy: And unhygiene to be introduced will be controlled unhygiene.
2014-10-03T16:10:13Z ilammy: CaptainRant, I doubt. R6RS has more batteries.
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2014-10-03T16:14:37Z ilammy: But yeah, I'm using R7RS for fun...
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2014-10-03T16:20:04Z taylanub: theseb: can you please stop abusing exclamation/question marks?  R6RS, and most credible implementations, have syntax-case.  it's hygienic by default, and can break hygiene deliberately.
2014-10-03T16:20:46Z LeoNerd idly wonders what a scheme function whose name was  foo???  might mean
2014-10-03T16:21:10Z theseb: taylanub: wait...so by unhygenic they mean you'll still use syntax-case?.....it doesn't mean defmacro is coming back?
2014-10-03T16:21:10Z taylanub: it returns, like, a very boolean value?
2014-10-03T16:21:12Z LeoNerd: Presumably it's a predicate test function that returns true iff it's given the  foo??  predicate test
2014-10-03T16:21:17Z LeoNerd: (foo??? foo??) => #t
2014-10-03T16:21:27Z theseb: taylanub: that bites
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2014-10-03T16:21:37Z taylanub: theseb: I don't think defmacro is ever coming back to Scheme.  and R6RS has been out since ages...
2014-10-03T16:22:29Z taylanub hands theseb a joint ... just .. chill
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2014-10-03T16:26:52Z theseb: taylanub: but i loooove defmacro quick and dirty macros....they were sooo easy
2014-10-03T16:27:06Z theseb: and no thanks..i don't touch the stuff :)
2014-10-03T16:27:06Z taylanub: they're harmful.  it's best to not ever use them.
2014-10-03T16:27:14Z vanila: they're bad
2014-10-03T16:27:24Z theseb: nothing a little gensym action can't fix
2014-10-03T16:27:33Z vanila: gensym only fixes one issue of hygiene
2014-10-03T16:27:38Z vanila: and you have to do it manually
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2014-10-03T16:28:12Z theseb: iirc....old skool gensym macros only had issues when folks do insane stuff like redefine lambda, car,cdr or other monkey biz
2014-10-03T16:28:23Z theseb: right?
2014-10-03T16:28:28Z vanila: yes
2014-10-03T16:28:38Z vanila: or any other name
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2014-10-03T16:29:02Z Guest_____: How would I convert normal time to Naval time in scheme?
2014-10-03T16:29:06Z taylanub: (define (copy-pair pair) (let ((car (car pair)) (cdr (cdr pair))) (cons car cdr)))
2014-10-03T16:29:31Z taylanub: theseb: ^ maybe it's a contrived example, but you get the idea
2014-10-03T16:29:40Z taylanub: "it happens"
2014-10-03T16:30:03Z taylanub: Guest_____: what's naval time?
2014-10-03T16:30:13Z Guest_____: With (define (ToNavyTime hour ampm) and cond
2014-10-03T16:30:29Z taylanub: anyway, I don't think any Scheme standard defines procedures to deal with timezones
2014-10-03T16:30:39Z Guest_____: Normal time: 12 pm would be Naval TIme: 12
2014-10-03T16:30:50Z taylanub: oh, homework?
2014-10-03T16:30:54Z Guest_____: Normal TIme: 12 am would be Naval Time: 0
2014-10-03T16:31:04Z Guest_____: taylanub yes homeowrk
2014-10-03T16:31:11Z Guest_____: * homework
2014-10-03T16:32:17Z Guest_____: Here I got this far: http://prntscr.com/4sp127
2014-10-03T16:32:36Z taylanub: copypaste code into a pastebin like paste.lisp.org please, no screenshot
2014-10-03T16:33:14Z taylanub: what values does ampm have?  0 for am, 1 for pm, or what?
2014-10-03T16:33:51Z Guest_____: My bad. http://paste.lisp.org/display/143927
2014-10-03T16:34:07Z Guest_____: am is 0 pm is 1
2014-10-03T16:34:18Z taylanub: (by the way, in lisp/scheme, we prefer names like foo-bar-baz instead of FooBarBaz)
2014-10-03T16:34:40Z taylanub: Guest_____: re-read how exactly cond works
2014-10-03T16:34:41Z Guest_____: Function names and variable names given by teacher
2014-10-03T16:34:43Z Guest_____: I gtg
2014-10-03T16:34:47Z Guest_____: Ill come back later
2014-10-03T16:34:59Z taylanub: might want to pick a proper nick too, BTW
2014-10-03T16:35:00Z taylanub: laters
2014-10-03T16:35:03Z Guest_____: My compsci period is over
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2014-10-03T16:55:06Z ilammy: LeoNerd, (set! foo 1) (set!!! foo 1) (set!!!!!111111one foo 1)
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2014-10-03T20:32:59Z pnpuff: ok, now reading about how internal definitions extend an environment is more clear the rule of letrec
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2014-10-03T22:15:20Z MrSavage: I'm using DrRacket, how can I see if a procedure is tail-recursive? I remember hearing you can print out the functino calls or something like that?
2014-10-03T22:17:25Z MrSavage: nevermind it was trace
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2014-10-03T22:46:55Z pjdelport: MrSavage: Generally, you can see it from inspection.
2014-10-03T22:47:24Z MrSavage: pjdelport: i'm new to scheme and i'm trying to understand how to implement an iteration of a complicated function
2014-10-03T22:47:31Z MrSavage: any tips?
2014-10-03T22:47:32Z pjdelport: Just check that the recursive calls are in tail position (where "tail position" roughly means: the very last thing that the function does)
2014-10-03T22:47:58Z pjdelport: MrSavage: I'm on my way to bed, but i can have a go if it's quick. :)
2014-10-03T22:48:01Z MrSavage: pjdelport: I mean to say I'm trying to implement an iterative version of a complicated function
2014-10-03T22:48:17Z vanila: MrSavage, you can use tail recursion to loop
2014-10-03T22:48:29Z MrSavage: A function f is defined by the rule that f(n) = n if n<4 and f(n) = f(n - 1) + 2f(n - 2) + 3f(n - 3) + 4f(n - 4) if n>= 4
2014-10-03T22:48:42Z vanila: f(n) = f(n - 1) + 2f(n - 2) + 3f(n - 3) + 4f(n - 4)  is a linear recurrence
2014-10-03T22:48:56Z MrSavage: i don't understand
2014-10-03T22:49:04Z vanila: it's just a name for that kind of thing
2014-10-03T22:49:12Z vanila: here's a much simpler one:
2014-10-03T22:49:18Z vanila: f(n) = n if n<2
2014-10-03T22:49:27Z vanila: f(n) = f(n-1) + f(n-2)
2014-10-03T22:49:30Z pjdelport: MrSavage: Cool; that's not a function that's trivial to translate, but the pattern of it does allow stating it as a loop.
2014-10-03T22:49:44Z vanila: finding out how to do an iterative version of this will give you the tools you need to do an iterative version of your function
2014-10-03T22:49:58Z pjdelport: MrSavage: Are you familiar with making a loop / tail-recursive version of the Fibonacci function?
2014-10-03T22:50:16Z MrSavage: I see an example and barely understand it
2014-10-03T22:50:58Z MrSavage: I assume to make a procedure iterative, you have to start from the primitive allowed values and iterate a # of times with the operations
2014-10-03T22:51:06Z pjdelport: You might recognize the similarity with the function above: fib(n) = n if n < 2 else fib(n - 1) + fib(n - 2)
2014-10-03T22:51:15Z MrSavage: I have no idea really how it was thought up or the mentality behind creating it
2014-10-03T22:51:26Z MrSavage: I do notice it
2014-10-03T22:51:54Z pjdelport: Have you seen the looping version of fib?
2014-10-03T22:52:03Z pjdelport: (Or can you see how to implement it?)
2014-10-03T22:52:06Z MrSavage: the iterative, yes i'm looking at it from the sicp
2014-10-03T22:52:24Z pjdelport: Cool.
2014-10-03T22:52:47Z MrSavage: I'm still trying to understand how it can apply to this function that i have
2014-10-03T22:52:56Z pjdelport: Yeah; i'm using the term "looping" more or less synonymously with "iterative", in SICP's sense.
2014-10-03T22:53:16Z ilammy: Tail-recursive fib is just a loop: the way one sums up 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 5...
2014-10-03T22:53:30Z MrSavage: with that function I wrote, it can never go into the negatives right?
2014-10-03T22:53:33Z vanila: yeah but you have to hold a vector of 2 values
2014-10-03T22:53:42Z ilammy: It's not like with factorial where recursive is almost the same as tail-recursive
2014-10-03T22:53:43Z pjdelport: Well, to make the iterative version of fib, we take advantage of the fact that each recursive call in the above statement only references the two *immediately preceding* values of fib.
2014-10-03T22:55:25Z pjdelport: That means that instead of recursing "backwards" from fib(n) to compute the values of fib(n - 1) and fib(n - 2), we can instead do the computation "forwards": if we know fib(n), and fib(n + 1), we can use them to compute fib(n + 2)
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2014-10-03T22:59:45Z pjdelport: This lets us express the fib function as a single iterative tail-recursive loop that only needs to keep track of the two current values of fib(n) and fib(n + 1), starting from the base cases of 0 and 1,
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2014-10-03T23:00:50Z pjdelport: MrSavage: For the function above, you'll need to do essentially the same thing, but instead of keeping track of 2 adjacent values, your loop will have to keep track of 4.
2014-10-03T23:01:39Z pjdelport: And for each iterative step, it will shift this "window" of 4 values forward, by calculating the next value following the current four.
2014-10-03T23:01:55Z pjdelport: Does that make sense/
2014-10-03T23:01:56Z pjdelport: ?
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2014-10-03T23:08:30Z MrSavage: pjdelport: that's what I thought
2014-10-03T23:08:37Z MrSavage: pjdelport: yes
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2014-10-03T23:56:01Z MrSavage: I finally got it, woohoo1
2014-10-03T23:56:02Z MrSavage: !