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2014-09-22T00:16:00Z jcowan: hey ho
2014-09-22T00:19:57Z jcowan: Are there any known Gödel numbering schemes other than Gödel's that work well over an infinite but countable alphabet, and are less computationally intensive?  (Over a finite alphabet it's trivial to do better.)
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2014-09-22T08:56:26Z vanila: I have some problem with the syntactic-closures
2014-09-22T08:56:55Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/111408
2014-09-22T08:57:13Z vanila: I don't understand why but some of the variables are not being changed
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2014-09-22T09:12:31Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/i8GsXa6T Im trying to create a function that has the same function as odd? with the use of pred
2014-09-22T09:12:47Z lrs_: even if n=0 and odd if n=1 else f(n-2)
2014-09-22T09:12:57Z lrs_: Im having a bit hard understanding what to do, thanks for the help
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2014-09-22T09:18:11Z pjdelport: jcowan: Arithmetic encoding?
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2014-09-22T09:20:38Z pjdelport: lrs_: Can you try translating how you just defined it in English into Scheme syntax?
2014-09-22T09:21:01Z pjdelport: Using 'if' or 'cond'?
2014-09-22T09:23:51Z lrs_: cond
2014-09-22T09:23:54Z lrs_: pjdelport, http://pastebin.com/RX2JKRG2
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2014-09-22T09:24:19Z pjdelport: lrs_: That's a good start!
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2014-09-22T09:25:38Z pjdelport: lrs_: Okay, so firstly, the first two conditions need a return value.
2014-09-22T09:26:22Z pjdelport: Do you know where to put that in, so that the (= n 0) case returns true and the (= n 1) case returns false?
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2014-09-22T09:27:39Z lrs_: YEah
2014-09-22T09:27:43Z lrs_: And i assume it is uhhh
2014-09-22T09:28:46Z lrs_: 0
2014-09-22T09:28:47Z lrs_: and then 1
2014-09-22T09:29:06Z lrs_: pjdelport, http://pastebin.com/q5RaksjD
2014-09-22T09:29:25Z pjdelport: Ah, not quite.
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2014-09-22T09:29:44Z pjdelport: Do you know Scheme's primitive true and false values?
2014-09-22T09:29:48Z pjdelport: #t and #f ?
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2014-09-22T09:30:42Z pjdelport: #t is what you'll use for true, and #f is what you'll use for false.
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2014-09-22T09:37:13Z lrs_: pjdelport, Right
2014-09-22T09:37:20Z lrs_: pjdelport, So what do I do wrong?
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2014-09-22T09:38:08Z pjdelport: Well, you put those 0 and 1 values in the right place, but they're numbers, not boolean values: so you should instead just insert #t and #f :)
2014-09-22T09:38:30Z pjdelport: Does that make sense?
2014-09-22T09:40:52Z lrs_: Ah
2014-09-22T09:41:58Z lrs_: pjdelport, But the recursive description says
2014-09-22T09:42:06Z lrs_: even if n=0
2014-09-22T09:42:09Z lrs_: odd if n=1
2014-09-22T09:42:15Z lrs_: else f(n-2)
2014-09-22T09:45:56Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/mnx8a6F9 is how it looks like right now
2014-09-22T09:46:36Z pjdelport: lrs_: That looks good :)
2014-09-22T09:47:11Z pjdelport: In English, you can read the first condition ((= n 0) #t) as "If n equals 0, then return true"
2014-09-22T09:47:53Z pjdelport: lrs_: Now, the else clause's body just needs adjustment
2014-09-22T09:48:44Z pjdelport: At the moment it doesn't make sense: "( even2? )" tries to call even2? with no parameters
2014-09-22T09:49:02Z pjdelport: Instead, you want to call it with 2 sutbracted from n, right?
2014-09-22T09:49:07Z pjdelport: subtracted, even
2014-09-22T09:49:16Z lrs_: Hmm?
2014-09-22T09:49:22Z lrs_: Also I need to use pred
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2014-09-22T09:50:07Z pjdelport: (I have to run for a while, i'm afraid... but i'll be back in an hour or two)
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2014-09-22T11:01:11Z rudybot: la la la
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2014-09-22T11:21:54Z lrs_: pjdelport, there?
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2014-09-22T13:12:24Z CaptainRant: Is there any usefull case, for a variable to change its type multiple times inside a function ?
2014-09-22T13:13:08Z CaptainRant: Usually the procedure foo takes a value of type bar and it stays so inside the function.
2014-09-22T13:15:22Z mario-goulart: CaptainRant: a common case is (let ((var #f)) ... (set! var 42))
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2014-09-22T13:16:18Z CaptainRant: Is #f guarranteed to be its own type ? Or is this implementation dependent ?
2014-09-22T13:16:33Z C-Keen: CaptainRant: #f is guaranteed to be the only false value
2014-09-22T13:16:36Z mario-goulart: It is a boolean, defined by the standard.
2014-09-22T13:16:44Z C-Keen: and what mario-goulart said
2014-09-22T13:17:36Z CaptainRant: Thanks, this explains a lot.
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2014-09-22T13:21:58Z taylanub: in Guile we also have #nil now to support Elisp inter-op ...
2014-09-22T13:22:31Z CaptainRant: Lots of other languages have the mess with false, 0, NULL, nil, null, ...
2014-09-22T13:22:49Z CaptainRant: custom_false, GL_FALSE, FOOBAR_FALSE, ...
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2014-09-22T13:23:59Z taylanub: Scheme just has #f and that's it.  even 0 is true; it's just another number after all
2014-09-22T13:24:40Z taylanub: and '() is the empty-list/null object; no real reason to make that false either
2014-09-22T13:25:26Z CaptainRant: And '() is just an alias for (list) ? The latter one seems to return a new empty list, rather than beeing just null.
2014-09-22T13:26:20Z taylanub: that's implementation-dependent; it can return the same empty list every time.  since it's an immutable object, there's no observable difference either, except possible for `eq?' which is kind of an abstraction-leaking procedure for the sake of effiicency
2014-09-22T13:26:22Z taylanub: efficiency*
2014-09-22T13:26:50Z taylanub: wow, my English is bad today:  there's no observable difference anyway, except possibly for `eq?'
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2014-09-22T13:32:14Z taylanub: CaptainRant: actually it seems the standard guarantees that the empty list exists only once; (eq? (list) (list)) => #true
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2014-09-22T14:02:37Z ilammy: taylanub, CaptainRant: well, _this_ result does not explicitly guarantee it; it's just eq? is defined as eqv? for empty lists, and eqv? is obliged to return #t for two empty lists
2014-09-22T14:02:38Z ecraven: All implementations I've looked at treat '() as a special value that is encoded differently than other lists, all empty lists are considered eq?
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2014-09-22T14:04:50Z ilammy: Oh. Just found this clause: 'Notwithstanding this, it is understood that the empty list cannot be newly allocated, because it is a unique object.'
2014-09-22T14:05:41Z taylanub: well, it really doesn't matter; the lowest level thing in the spec is eq? and if that can't discern two objects then you can say they have the same identity, unless you're talking about some implementation details/extensions
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2014-09-22T14:53:32Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/q5RaksjD
2014-09-22T14:54:32Z lrs_: Sorry
2014-09-22T14:54:34Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/fjvi2EVs
2014-09-22T14:54:45Z lrs_: How do I change this clause so that it works with pred
2014-09-22T14:54:50Z lrs_: I have no idea how to do this
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2014-09-22T14:58:52Z CaptainRant: Are records/structs/classes the idiomatic way in scheme to couple functions to data ?
2014-09-22T14:59:10Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/vQR5yE2J ...
2014-09-22T14:59:14Z lrs_: ;_; please help
2014-09-22T14:59:22Z CaptainRant: Im confused, since this involves tons of mutations!
2014-09-22T14:59:34Z tsuyoshi: CaptainRant: closures are the idomatic way
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2014-09-22T15:00:09Z CaptainRant: So instead of a class with 5 functions, i create 5 closures ?
2014-09-22T15:00:13Z tsuyoshi: records didn't even exist in r5rs
2014-09-22T15:00:46Z tsuyoshi: CaptainRant: I don't know, it depends on what you're trying to do
2014-09-22T15:00:57Z CaptainRant: And should i use a vector/list, to bundle related closures ?
2014-09-22T15:01:26Z CaptainRant: tsuyoshi: im just thinking about how to structure things. I know there are books, but :D
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2014-09-22T15:03:13Z tsuyoshi: well.. if a record is the natural way to do it, I would put things into a record
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2014-09-22T15:18:00Z ecraven: CaptainRant: if you need actual classes, use one of the object systems
2014-09-22T15:18:17Z ecraven: if you need no inheritance, no specific methods, just some container for data, use records or structures (whatever your Scheme provides)
2014-09-22T15:18:40Z ecraven: you can implement both of these using closures but chances are the people who already implemented one of the above put more time and effort into it than you want to
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2014-09-22T15:26:02Z CaptainRant: How hard is it to ensure, that larger projects are not prone to typos and runtime type errors ?
2014-09-22T15:26:13Z CaptainRant is still a newbie in the functional, dynamic world.
2014-09-22T15:26:49Z tsuyoshi: I haven't had much trouble with typos
2014-09-22T15:27:12Z ecraven: quite a few Scheme systems even tell you when identifiers you use are unbound, so you can catch that
2014-09-22T15:27:22Z ecraven: just de-couple your modules as much as possible and write a few tests
2014-09-22T15:27:25Z tsuyoshi: runtime type errors happen a lot... you have to test your code
2014-09-22T15:27:48Z ecraven: there's even compilers that warn you about invoking functions on wrongly-typed values (Scheme48 did that I think)
2014-09-22T15:27:50Z CaptainRant: tsuyoshi: i rather mean renaming stuff afterwards
2014-09-22T15:28:35Z tsuyoshi: CaptainRant: it doesn't usually cause problems, in my experience
2014-09-22T15:29:38Z ecraven: CaptainRant: that depends on your programming style and how hard it is to actually find all places where you invoke the function you have renamed
2014-09-22T15:29:52Z ecraven: if you have some proper dark macrology, that can be non-trivial ;)
2014-09-22T15:30:02Z taylanub: CaptainRant: SRFI-9 records are currently the most standard and idiomatic way
2014-09-22T15:30:26Z taylanub: tsuyoshi: using closures as objects is a neat trick and could even fulfil some simple realistic use-cases but it's certainly not the recommended practice
2014-09-22T15:30:56Z taylanub: tsuyoshi: SRFI-9-ish records existed since hell of a long time; Scheme just lags in standardization as usual :)
2014-09-22T15:31:52Z tsuyoshi: well, I am just answering the question of how you associate data with a procedure
2014-09-22T15:32:31Z tsuyoshi: I guess if you have a whole object-oriented way of thinking, that's an insufficient answer
2014-09-22T15:32:32Z taylanub: oh sorry, it seems I missed that part of the question :\  that's true, lexical scoping makes data available there where it's referenced
2014-09-22T15:33:55Z CaptainRant: taylanub: the oop mindset is not my problem, but rather the idea of what can be checked at compiletime, is worth it.
2014-09-22T15:33:56Z taylanub: CaptainRant: ^ so the explicit coupling becomes a secondary concern; usually you define data structures separately from procedures that operate on them.  in fact often you only export procedures that create and access a structure without revealing at all what data structures are used internally
2014-09-22T15:34:12Z taylanub: CaptainRant: oh, not much is checked at compile time, since Scheme is dynamically typed
2014-09-22T15:34:47Z taylanub: a smart Scheme compiler can go a long way, but in general you get no static checks as long as lexical syntax and macro usage is correct
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2014-09-22T15:35:31Z taylanub: .oO( conceptually, one could perhaps see macro expansion as all what "compilation" does, from an abstract perspective )
2014-09-22T15:36:45Z CaptainRant: On my oddysee, im jumping from language to language. Scheme is the closest, so i want to ensure i don't find some no-go's like in the other languages.
2014-09-22T15:39:25Z taylanub: if you ask me, as far as language beauty goes, I feel Scheme, ML-descendants (SML, Ocaml), and Miranda descendants (Haskell) are where it's at.  but this is mostly an emotional thing :)  in practice, library availability and other practical concerns will usually trump other concerns when choosing a language...
2014-09-22T15:40:32Z CaptainRant: Ocaml looks very promising, but most people argue against it in favor of haskell.
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2014-09-22T15:41:59Z taylanub: I'm actually being a bit silly because Scheme is the only one I know well from the ones I mentioned, but from all I know about the others, the ML family and Haskell have some differences which aren't clear/objective advantages/disadvantages, but simply different.  most notably, Haskell has lazy evaluation, ML eager
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2014-09-22T15:53:40Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/vQR5yE2J ...
2014-09-22T15:53:42Z lrs_: Anyone?
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2014-09-22T16:01:42Z lrs_: I need ro replace - n2 with something
2014-09-22T16:01:51Z lrs_: That gives am e #t or #f if it is even or not
2014-09-22T16:01:52Z lrs_: :S
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2014-09-22T16:04:43Z ecraven: any haskellist will argue that lazy is more efficient :)
2014-09-22T16:06:28Z ijp: at least until it comes time to optimise
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2014-09-22T16:07:00Z suppi: not sure if more efficient, but they will probably argue that it is more expressive :)
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2014-09-22T16:32:40Z pjdelport: lrs_: The (- n 2) is right.
2014-09-22T16:32:58Z pjdelport: lrs_: However, it's not actually calling the even2? function there.
2014-09-22T16:33:00Z lrs_: pjdelport, What am I doing wrong
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2014-09-22T16:33:32Z lrs_: pjdelport, http://pastebin.com/fK82exH0
2014-09-22T16:33:36Z lrs_: Thats how it looks like right now
2014-09-22T16:33:38Z pjdelport: The "even2? (- n 2)" in "(else even2?(- n 2))" is actually just two different expressions.
2014-09-22T16:34:11Z pjdelport: It will just return (- n 2), instead of the result of calling even2? with (- n 2)
2014-09-22T16:34:50Z pjdelport: lrs_: Remember that a function call in Scheme doesn't look like f(x), it looks like (f x)
2014-09-22T16:35:48Z pjdelport: So for that latest example, how would you express calling function "evn" with argument "(pred n)"?
2014-09-22T16:37:24Z lrs_: (evn 2)
2014-09-22T16:37:25Z lrs_: ?
2014-09-22T16:37:30Z lrs_: You mean in the input window
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2014-09-22T16:54:43Z lrs_: pjdelport, (evn) (- n 2)
2014-09-22T16:54:44Z lrs_: ?
2014-09-22T16:54:54Z lrs_: I have no idea :( I dont even know what Im doing
2014-09-22T16:54:59Z lrs_: Or how it works
2014-09-22T16:55:06Z lrs_: I need to use pred to get this to workj
2014-09-22T16:55:14Z lrs_: And I cant find anything to help me
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2014-09-22T17:22:16Z pjdelport: lrs_: Back, sorry :)
2014-09-22T17:22:16Z pjdelport: lrs_: Well, remember the syntax: (f x)
2014-09-22T17:22:16Z pjdelport: To do the call above, what should 'f' be, and what should 'x' be?
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2014-09-22T17:27:11Z lrs_: pjdelport, what do you mean "call"
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2014-09-22T17:27:37Z lrs_: Do you mean the last recursive thing?
2014-09-22T17:27:40Z lrs_: The last lines
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2014-09-22T17:27:57Z lrs_: or do you mean (f 4) for example
2014-09-22T17:29:51Z pjdelport: lrs_: Right, that.
2014-09-22T17:30:16Z lrs_: Well, (evn 3)
2014-09-22T17:30:33Z pjdelport: It's the same thing: Scheme doesn't make any distinction between calling a function recursively or not.
2014-09-22T17:31:00Z pjdelport: Cool, (evn 3) will call evn with argument 3, but what about in general?
2014-09-22T17:31:19Z pjdelport: In other words, how would you call it with (- n 2) instead of 3?
2014-09-22T17:31:52Z pjdelport: (Remember that a function's argument can be any expression.)
2014-09-22T17:32:17Z lrs_: (evn (- n 2))
2014-09-22T17:32:21Z lrs_: ;_;
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2014-09-22T17:36:40Z lrs_: pjdelport, Or what do you mean
2014-09-22T17:37:07Z pjdelport: lrs_: That's right :D
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2014-09-22T17:37:42Z pjdelport: So that performs two function calls: First it calls - with arguments n and 2, and then it calls evn with the result of that.
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2014-09-22T17:38:07Z pjdelport: (And "-" is just another function, like "evn".)
2014-09-22T17:38:41Z pjdelport: lrs_: So you can do the same kind of thing calling "pred" instead of "-".
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2014-09-22T17:38:56Z pjdelport: Does that make sense?
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2014-09-22T17:40:08Z theseb: can ANY string be a var name that does NOT include spaces, ( or )?
2014-09-22T17:41:12Z lrs_: pjdelport, so i do (evn (pred))
2014-09-22T17:41:14Z lrs_: ?
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2014-09-22T17:41:28Z lrs_: And keep
2014-09-22T17:41:55Z lrs_:    (else evn(- 2))))
2014-09-22T17:41:56Z lrs_: Or something
2014-09-22T17:41:57Z lrs_: ?
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2014-09-22T17:52:10Z lrs_: pjdelport, I dont get it
2014-09-22T17:52:12Z lrs_: :/
2014-09-22T17:52:26Z pjdelport: theseb: More or less, yeah.
2014-09-22T17:52:59Z pjdelport: theseb: There are a few other non-symbol special characters too, like ' and so on.
2014-09-22T17:53:20Z pjdelport: lrs_: Well, you have to call pred with something too.
2014-09-22T17:53:38Z pjdelport: lrs_: (pred) will try to call the "pred" function with no arguments, but it needs one, right/
2014-09-22T17:53:39Z pjdelport: ?
2014-09-22T17:53:51Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/tmPxCYhC pjdelport
2014-09-22T17:53:55Z lrs_: Thats how it look like right now
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2014-09-22T17:54:33Z ilammy: pjdelport, I believe symbol escaping allows to really use _anything_ for variable names
2014-09-22T17:54:43Z ilammy: like |'|
2014-09-22T17:54:52Z pjdelport: ilammy: Right.
2014-09-22T17:55:00Z lrs_: pjdelport, http://pastebin.com/u46Gxn93 Thats how the original looked. I need to replace the impleneted even? and odd? by using pred
2014-09-22T17:55:02Z lrs_: ;_;
2014-09-22T17:55:03Z pjdelport: Hence "more or less". :)
2014-09-22T17:57:23Z pjdelport: lrs_: I think we need to step back a bit from that problem: you have to be comfortable with expression syntax before tackling problems like the above.
2014-09-22T17:57:34Z pjdelport: Which tutorial are you working from again?
2014-09-22T17:57:59Z lrs_: pjdelport, Ok
2014-09-22T17:58:23Z lrs_: I have to do this and another problem until tomorrow though ;_; and I cant find anything that helps me
2014-09-22T17:58:33Z pjdelport: Is it for homework?
2014-09-22T17:58:37Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-22T17:58:45Z lrs_: Graded homework
2014-09-22T17:58:49Z pjdelport: lrs_: Ah, do you have course material or such available?
2014-09-22T17:58:53Z lrs_: Only SICP
2014-09-22T17:59:04Z pjdelport: lrs_: Okay, i would say try a few online tutorials
2014-09-22T17:59:20Z pjdelport: I'll try and find a few that are readable:
2014-09-22T17:59:20Z pjdelport: http://www.shido.info/lisp/scheme2_e.html
2014-09-22T17:59:40Z lrs_: pjdelport, I get that
2014-09-22T18:00:00Z lrs_: I dont have problem with the expression thing
2014-09-22T18:00:03Z pjdelport: Look at how expressions and function calls are structured... it's absolutely critical to understand that.
2014-09-22T18:00:39Z lrs_: http://www.shido.info/lisp/scheme7_e.html < I think its this I have problem with
2014-09-22T18:01:35Z pjdelport: lrs_: Are you sure you're comfortable with it?
2014-09-22T18:01:39Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-22T18:01:47Z lrs_: Its
2014-09-22T18:01:47Z lrs_:      (else evn(pred (- n 2)))))
2014-09-22T18:01:50Z lrs_: This I dont get
2014-09-22T18:01:58Z lrs_: How am I gonna convert (- n 2) into pred
2014-09-22T18:02:01Z pjdelport: Well, that's what i mean: that's not a sensible expression.
2014-09-22T18:02:32Z lrs_: Heres how I see it
2014-09-22T18:02:50Z lrs_: I need f(n-2) to calculate if a problem is even or uneven if it isnt 0 or 1
2014-09-22T18:02:55Z lrs_: So I write
2014-09-22T18:02:59Z pjdelport: lrs_: That looks like you're trying to call the evn function as f(x) instead of (f x)
2014-09-22T18:03:05Z pjdelport: Which is not how Scheme syntax works.
2014-09-22T18:03:07Z theseb: pjdelport: ah yes..thanks...quotes can be in var names..yes
2014-09-22T18:03:08Z lrs_: else evn(????)
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2014-09-22T18:04:16Z pjdelport: That's why i want to go back to getting to really understand how Scheme expressions are structured: it's the absolute foundation of Scheme, and if you're not comfortable with that, then the concepts that build on it won't make sense.
2014-09-22T18:04:36Z pjdelport: lrs_: It's *really* important to understand that.
2014-09-22T18:04:51Z pjdelport: Otherwise everything will be confusing.
2014-09-22T18:05:04Z pjdelport: Have you worked through http://www.shido.info/lisp/scheme2_e.html before?
2014-09-22T18:05:24Z lrs_: I get everything in that page -_-
2014-09-22T18:05:32Z pjdelport: lrs_: Are you *sure*?
2014-09-22T18:05:36Z lrs_: Yes -_-
2014-09-22T18:05:51Z pjdelport: lrs_: Do you understand why f(x) and (f x) mean two different things in Scheme?
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2014-09-22T18:06:03Z lrs_: YEs
2014-09-22T18:06:25Z pjdelport: lrs_: And evn(x) and (evn x) ?
2014-09-22T18:06:39Z lrs_: Where is it located? define?
2014-09-22T18:06:52Z pjdelport: No, that doesn matter; i just mean the syntax
2014-09-22T18:07:10Z pjdelport: Okay, so in the above code, why did you write evn(pred (- n 2)))) ?
2014-09-22T18:07:21Z theseb: pjdelport: cannot*
2014-09-22T18:07:33Z pjdelport: Try and explain the reasoning to me: what does each bit of that expression do?
2014-09-22T18:07:40Z pjdelport: And how will Scheme interpret it?
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2014-09-22T18:08:18Z pjdelport: So, for example, in the inside bit, (- n 2) will call the function "-" with two parameters: "n" and "2"
2014-09-22T18:08:32Z pjdelport: What does the rest of that expression mean?
2014-09-22T18:08:43Z lrs_: I have no idea... Thats the thing :| I see the problem as I should implement the function evn(n-2) somehow
2014-09-22T18:08:52Z lrs_: But replace n-2 with pred
2014-09-22T18:08:56Z lrs_: which is defined as x+1
2014-09-22T18:09:01Z lrs_: And I have no fkn idea how to do that
2014-09-22T18:09:15Z pjdelport: lrs_: Okay, that's what i mean: if you have no idea, then you *don't* understand comfortably how expressions work with Scheme.
2014-09-22T18:09:16Z lrs_: *x-1
2014-09-22T18:09:30Z pjdelport: lrs_: And you *have* to understand that, or nothing will make sense.
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2014-09-22T18:09:54Z lrs_: Ok so here is what I guess I would write
2014-09-22T18:09:56Z pjdelport: lrs_: It's critical. So we have to step back, and get you to understand how expressions work.
2014-09-22T18:10:01Z lrs_: If id want it to call f(n-2)
2014-09-22T18:10:03Z lrs_: Without using pred
2014-09-22T18:10:13Z lrs_: (else evn(- n 2))
2014-09-22T18:10:17Z pjdelport: I really want you to re-read http://www.shido.info/lisp/scheme2_e.html
2014-09-22T18:11:11Z pjdelport: lrs_: But why are you saying evn(- n 2) ? That's not how you call a function in Scheme.
2014-09-22T18:11:15Z lrs_: pjdelport, I dont get it. Everything written there is pretty much clear to me.
2014-09-22T18:12:08Z lrs_: lrs_, so I dont get it to call the function by choosing evn?
2014-09-22T18:12:13Z lrs_: I dont use evn at all or what?
2014-09-22T18:12:34Z pjdelport: lrs_: I suspect there's a conceptual misunderstanding somewhere...
2014-09-22T18:12:47Z lrs_: Yes
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2014-09-22T18:12:57Z pjdelport: lrs_: Consider this expression in mathematical notation: exp(2/3)
2014-09-22T18:13:09Z pjdelport: lrs_: How would you write the same expression in Scheme?
2014-09-22T18:13:09Z lrs_: e^(2/3)
2014-09-22T18:13:11Z lrs_: ?
2014-09-22T18:14:06Z lrs_: (exp 2/3) or (exp (/ 2 3))
2014-09-22T18:14:10Z lrs_: Im guessing (exp 2/3)
2014-09-22T18:14:16Z pjdelport: Right, the second one is right.
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2014-09-22T18:14:28Z lrs_: Ok
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2014-09-22T18:15:40Z taylanub: lrs_: pjdelport: er, both are right
2014-09-22T18:15:47Z taylanub: x/y is syntax for exact rational numbers
2014-09-22T18:16:14Z taylanub: and (/ x y) will return the same value.  (assuming x and y are exact integers)
2014-09-22T18:16:25Z pjdelport: (taylanub: Right, i'm just trying to focus on the expression structure. :)
2014-09-22T18:16:30Z lrs_: But as I said this is not the problem
2014-09-22T18:16:34Z lrs_: The problem is
2014-09-22T18:16:39Z taylanub: ok, was missing context :)
2014-09-22T18:16:43Z pjdelport: lrs_: Okay, how would you write the Pythagorean distance? sqrt(a^2 + b^2) ?
2014-09-22T18:16:59Z lrs_: sqrtU
2014-09-22T18:17:01Z lrs_: Woops
2014-09-22T18:17:06Z pjdelport: (assuming you can use "sqrt" and "exp" in Scheme)
2014-09-22T18:17:26Z lrs_: sqrt( (exp a 2) (exp b 2))
2014-09-22T18:17:53Z pjdelport: Ah, that's not right
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2014-09-22T18:18:01Z pjdelport: lrs_: This is where the problem comes in, i think.
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2014-09-22T18:18:36Z pjdelport: lrs_: This is a very important thing: f(x) is never how you call a function in Scheme.
2014-09-22T18:19:00Z lrs_: Ok
2014-09-22T18:19:13Z lrs_: So what do you write =
2014-09-22T18:19:24Z lrs_: if you want
2014-09-22T18:19:25Z taylanub: lrs_: do you know other programming languages?  do you know the JSON data format?
2014-09-22T18:19:27Z pjdelport: lrs_: In the above, you say sqrt(...), but that won't call sqrt. Instead, to Scheme, it means two separate and unrelated expressions: "sqrt", and "(...)"
2014-09-22T18:19:28Z lrs_: f(n-2)
2014-09-22T18:19:47Z lrs_: Hmm?
2014-09-22T18:19:50Z lrs_: What is (..)
2014-09-22T18:20:03Z pjdelport: lrs_: It's just a placeholder
2014-09-22T18:20:20Z taylanub: if yes and yes, then this might help, though I'm not sure how good the approach is:  http://taylan.uni.cx:8080/github-live/doc/lisp-rundown.txt
2014-09-22T18:20:27Z pjdelport: For example: sqrt((exp a 2) (exp b 2))
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2014-09-22T18:21:06Z pjdelport: lrs_: This is how Scheme sees that: sqrt ((exp a 2) (exp b 2))
2014-09-22T18:21:26Z pjdelport: lrs_: The "sqrt" is a stand-alone expression: Scheme will evaluate that and throw it away.
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2014-09-22T18:21:38Z pjdelport: lrs_: Then, Scheme will see: ((exp a 2) (exp b 2))
2014-09-22T18:21:53Z pjdelport: Now, remember that (f x) means to apply the function f to x.
2014-09-22T18:22:21Z pjdelport: lrs_: So the above tells Scheme to take the result of (exp a 2) and apply it to (exp b 2)
2014-09-22T18:22:34Z pjdelport: Which doesn't make sense, because (exp a 2) is not a function.
2014-09-22T18:22:39Z lrs_: Hmm
2014-09-22T18:22:53Z lrs_: Do you mean im supposed to do it backwards or something?
2014-09-22T18:23:15Z pjdelport: lrs_: No, it's just not how Scheme syntax works at all.
2014-09-22T18:23:31Z pjdelport: lrs_: I *really* *really* think you should read http://www.shido.info/lisp/scheme2_e.html again.
2014-09-22T18:24:01Z pjdelport: lrs_: You've said you think you understand it, but i think you don't really: it's still unclear.
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2014-09-22T18:24:21Z pjdelport: lrs_: It explains the same thing i'm trying to explain now.
2014-09-22T18:24:46Z lrs_: (+(sqrt exp(a 2)) (sqrt exp(b 2)))
2014-09-22T18:24:46Z lrs_: ?
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2014-09-22T18:26:25Z pjdelport: lrs_: Try reading this too: http://www.roboguy.net/tutorials/scheme.php
2014-09-22T18:26:50Z pjdelport: lrs_: Pay extra attention to the syntax
2014-09-22T18:27:14Z lrs_: pjdelport, Can you tell me the correct way to write that function though?
2014-09-22T18:27:18Z lrs_: I think it would help me
2014-09-22T18:27:30Z lrs_: I know that i need to start with else
2014-09-22T18:27:40Z pjdelport: lrs_: Well, i don't just want to give you the answer without you understanding what it means.
2014-09-22T18:27:43Z lrs_: and then I need to put in f(n-2) somewhere
2014-09-22T18:27:57Z lrs_: Well, if you give me the answer I might do
2014-09-22T18:28:15Z lrs_: Ive been sitting on my ass for  10 hours and not getting it so
2014-09-22T18:28:32Z pjdelport: lrs_: There's no shortcut: you *have* to undersand how expressions work.
2014-09-22T18:28:58Z lrs_: I know
2014-09-22T18:29:03Z pjdelport: lrs_: Please, read that most recent link i gave, and see if it helps.
2014-09-22T18:29:24Z pjdelport: Then i can try explaining in more detail.
2014-09-22T18:29:31Z lrs_: pjdelport, Are you 100% sure that I need to write an expression that does f(n -2)
2014-09-22T18:29:52Z pjdelport: But without understanding the fundamentals, there's nowhere to even start explaining, is what i'm trying to say.
2014-09-22T18:30:21Z pjdelport: lrs_: Ignore that problem entirely for now: just try to undestand how expressions work.
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2014-09-22T18:31:04Z pjdelport: My earlier explanations made no sense because you don't understand how expressions work yet: and it will keep on not making sense until you do.
2014-09-22T18:32:14Z pjdelport: lrs_: I don't want to go beyond the sqrt(a^2 + b^2)  example until you actually understand how to translate that to Scheme syntax.
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2014-09-22T18:33:50Z lrs_: pjdelport,
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2014-09-22T18:34:24Z lrs_: (sqrt(+ (* a a) (* b b))
2014-09-22T18:34:46Z pjdelport: lrs_: Okay, cool :)
2014-09-22T18:34:57Z pjdelport: lrs_: Do you see why that makes sense, and the earlier one didn't?
2014-09-22T18:35:18Z pjdelport: lrs_: Note that in scheme you will usually write a space after the function: (sqrt (+ (* a a) (* b b))
2014-09-22T18:35:32Z pjdelport: lrs_: I think you have to get into the habit of doing that, to avoid confusion
2014-09-22T18:35:50Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-22T18:35:58Z lrs_: I am just wondering how i would write if id use exp instead
2014-09-22T18:36:17Z pjdelport: lrs_: Oh, there's also one parentheses missing: can you see where it is?
2014-09-22T18:36:30Z lrs_: (sqrt(+ (* a a) (* b b)))
2014-09-22T18:36:37Z pjdelport: exp is pretty similar: you had it right before: (exp a 2)
2014-09-22T18:36:45Z pjdelport: lrs_: Cool, but remember that space :)
2014-09-22T18:36:50Z lrs_:  (sqrt (+ (* exp(a 2) exp(b 2))))) ?
2014-09-22T18:37:09Z pjdelport: No... you're writing it as f(x) again instead of (f x)
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2014-09-22T18:37:19Z pjdelport: Scheme *only* uses the second syntax.
2014-09-22T18:37:22Z pjdelport: Never the frist.
2014-09-22T18:37:23Z pjdelport: first, even
2014-09-22T18:37:30Z lrs_: (sqrt (+ (* (exp a 2) (exp b 2)))))) ?
2014-09-22T18:37:40Z ARM9: that's a lot of parens
2014-09-22T18:38:27Z pjdelport: lrs_: Right, now the exps are right, but you can remove the *
2014-09-22T18:38:47Z pjdelport: And you shouldn't have extra closing parentheses
2014-09-22T18:38:56Z lrs_:                  (define pythagoras
2014-09-22T18:38:56Z lrs_:   (lambda (a b)
2014-09-22T18:38:56Z lrs_: (sqrt (+ ((exp a 2) (exp b 2))))))
2014-09-22T18:39:21Z turbofail: expt, not exp
2014-09-22T18:39:32Z ilammy: (* a a) ftw
2014-09-22T18:39:39Z lrs_: (sqrt (+ ((expt a 2) (expt b 2))))))
2014-09-22T18:39:39Z lrs_: ?
2014-09-22T18:39:44Z pjdelport: lrs_: Cool :)
2014-09-22T18:39:45Z pjdelport: Yeah.
2014-09-22T18:39:47Z lrs_: Doesnt work
2014-09-22T18:39:48Z lrs_: ;_;
2014-09-22T18:39:54Z turbofail: er, there's still extra parens
2014-09-22T18:40:03Z lrs_:    (define pythagoras
2014-09-22T18:40:04Z lrs_:   (lambda (a b)
2014-09-22T18:40:04Z lrs_: (sqrt (+ ((expt a 2) (expt b 2))))))
2014-09-22T18:40:04Z turbofail: you can't just stick in extra parentheses wherever you want in scheme
2014-09-22T18:40:35Z lrs_: Nope. I didnt
2014-09-22T18:40:40Z lrs_: Thats how it looks now
2014-09-22T18:40:41Z turbofail: but you did
2014-09-22T18:40:49Z pjdelport: Okay, that's looking a lot better; and yeah, the actual Scheme function is expt, not exp, like turbofail said. (My mistake, sorry.)
2014-09-22T18:40:58Z turbofail: there's extra parens around ((expt a 2) (expt b 2))
2014-09-22T18:41:23Z lrs_: Ah cool
2014-09-22T18:41:39Z ilammy: You definitely need an editor that highlights parenthised regions.
2014-09-22T18:41:41Z pjdelport: lrs_: Right: when you take a out a function call, you need to take out both the function *and* the surrounding parentheses.
2014-09-22T18:41:48Z lrs_: ilammy, I have, so no worries
2014-09-22T18:41:58Z pjdelport: lrs_: Because the parentheses actually mean calling, or application.
2014-09-22T18:42:11Z lrs_: "take out" ?
2014-09-22T18:42:27Z ARM9: delete
2014-09-22T18:42:29Z ARM9: remove
2014-09-22T18:42:30Z pjdelport: lrs_: or remove, like did for *
2014-09-22T18:42:58Z lrs_: Remove a function call
2014-09-22T18:43:03Z pjdelport: like you did, i mean.
2014-09-22T18:43:05Z lrs_: Why would I remove it
2014-09-22T18:43:12Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-09-22T18:43:19Z pjdelport: Well, you had an extra * in there before. :)
2014-09-22T18:43:30Z lrs_: Oh ok, Im thinking ahead
2014-09-22T18:43:38Z pjdelport: Cool.
2014-09-22T18:44:21Z pjdelport: Okay, so don't forget this important point: in Scheme, you never say f(x), and always (f x)
2014-09-22T18:44:28Z pjdelport: to call a function
2014-09-22T18:44:56Z pjdelport: or (f x y z), or however many arguments the function takes.
2014-09-22T18:45:04Z lrs_: "Calling a function" = recursive call ?
2014-09-22T18:45:13Z pjdelport: It's just calling a function.
2014-09-22T18:45:17Z lrs_: Where
2014-09-22T18:45:18Z pjdelport: It doesn't matter whether it's recursive or not.
2014-09-22T18:45:29Z lrs_: Where in the code do yo ucall a function and why do you do it
2014-09-22T18:45:34Z pjdelport: In all of the above examples, you're just calling a function.
2014-09-22T18:45:43Z lrs_: Is f(n-2) calling a function (I am assuming it is)
2014-09-22T18:45:57Z pjdelport: Yes (although that's not Scheme syntax, of course)
2014-09-22T18:46:09Z pjdelport: lrs_: In Scheme, almost everything is a function.
2014-09-22T18:46:22Z pjdelport: + and - and * and sqrt and expt are all functions
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2014-09-22T18:46:29Z pjdelport: And all you do is call them.
2014-09-22T18:46:42Z ilammy: A sudden question to macro wizards. Does Scheme generally dislike 'auxiliary syntax' because homonymous user-defined variables shadow such identifiers and break the macros?
2014-09-22T18:46:42Z lrs_: So I dont start with else?
2014-09-22T18:46:49Z pjdelport: So (+ 2 3) means calling the "+" function with arguments "2" and "3"
2014-09-22T18:46:56Z lrs_: Right
2014-09-22T18:47:35Z lrs_: I get that stuff
2014-09-22T18:47:50Z turbofail: but more importantly, ((+ 2 3) 4) means "attempt to call the result of (+ 2 3) with arguments 4", which doesn't make sense, because (+ 2 3) yields the number 5 and not a function
2014-09-22T18:48:08Z turbofail: that's what you seemed to be missing
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2014-09-22T18:48:26Z lrs_: (*(+2 3) 4)
2014-09-22T18:48:28Z lrs_: :|
2014-09-22T18:48:46Z turbofail: you need a space between + and 2 as well
2014-09-22T18:48:55Z pjdelport: lrs_: Rather (* (+2 3) 4)
2014-09-22T18:49:07Z pjdelport: Yeah; the space is not technically required in that case, but it makes it much clearer.
2014-09-22T18:49:07Z lrs_: (* (+ 2 3) 4)
2014-09-22T18:49:27Z pjdelport: Err, yes, with spaces after both functions like that, good. :)
2014-09-22T18:49:28Z turbofail: +2 is the number "positive 2"
2014-09-22T18:49:29Z ilammy: ( * ( + 2 3 ) 4 )
2014-09-22T18:49:39Z turbofail: so again you'd be trying to call a number as if it were a function
2014-09-22T18:49:43Z ilammy: Never understood folks who write in such way in C
2014-09-22T18:49:45Z pjdelport: (ilammy: Don't confuse! :)
2014-09-22T18:50:18Z pjdelport: lrs_: Anyway, you seem a bit more comfortable now. That's good. :)
2014-09-22T18:50:33Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-22T18:51:04Z pjdelport: Just remember that this is *always* how you write expressions and function calls in Scheme: no other way.
2014-09-22T18:51:13Z pjdelport: Scheme syntax is very homogenous in this way.
2014-09-22T18:51:16Z pjdelport: It's not like other languages that mix things up.
2014-09-22T18:51:25Z lrs_: Yup. I've gone through this before so, but as you know it takes time to be skilled with this
2014-09-22T18:51:39Z pjdelport: Right. :)
2014-09-22T18:51:56Z ARM9: it's all lists
2014-09-22T18:52:15Z pjdelport: Okay, so back to the homework: What do you have right now?
2014-09-22T18:53:18Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/gVCzknEG
2014-09-22T18:53:18Z lrs_: :|
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2014-09-22T18:54:21Z pjdelport: Okay, so first, just a tiny style thing: rather write those first two conditions as ((= n 0) #t)
2014-09-22T18:54:22Z pjdelport: (note the spaces)
2014-09-22T18:54:23Z lrs_: Ok
2014-09-22T18:54:23Z pjdelport: That reads better, and will help you gain familiarity with reading other Scheme code written in the same style.
2014-09-22T18:55:04Z pjdelport: The else clause is looking better now: it's syntactically valid, but it probably doesn't do exactly what you want it to do.
2014-09-22T18:55:31Z lrs_: Nope, and I also need to implement pred in there in some strange way I have no idea how to :S
2014-09-22T18:56:15Z lrs_: if pred = x - 1, How do I go from (x-1) to ( n -2)
2014-09-22T18:56:40Z lrs_: pred + pred + n
2014-09-22T18:56:41Z lrs_: ?
2014-09-22T18:56:44Z lrs_: ;/
2014-09-22T18:57:20Z lrs_: No wait, that doesnt work
2014-09-22T18:58:18Z lrs_: pred+pred-n
2014-09-22T18:58:21Z lrs_: :S
2014-09-22T18:58:28Z lrs_: Gah.
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2014-09-22T19:03:36Z turbofail: why are you multiplying by n in that else clause?
2014-09-22T19:04:21Z turbofail: first of all your function is returning true or false, so it stands to reason that the recursive call to it should be returning true or false
2014-09-22T19:04:53Z turbofail: so you'd be multiplying a number by a boolean
2014-09-22T19:04:57Z eupcan277_y_t quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-09-22T19:06:14Z turbofail: forget it.  let's use static types for everything.  pack up the channel, we're all going home
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2014-09-22T19:10:49Z tsuyoshi: hah... where is home?
2014-09-22T19:11:00Z pjdelport: lrs_: You just apply the pred function twice?
2014-09-22T19:11:44Z pjdelport: lrs_: How would you write taking the square root of a number twice in Scheme? :)
2014-09-22T19:12:09Z turbofail: tsuyoshi: ML-land or something
2014-09-22T19:13:00Z lrs_: pjdelport, (x-1)(x-1)
2014-09-22T19:13:22Z lrs_: x^2-2x+1
2014-09-22T19:13:25Z lrs_: ;_;
2014-09-22T19:15:19Z pjdelport: lrs_: Well, ignore square root. How do you apply a function to some value twice?
2014-09-22T19:15:36Z pjdelport: lrs_: (f x) apply f to x once. How would you apply f again to the result of that?
2014-09-22T19:19:11Z lrs_: Ngrh. Is that the problem?
2014-09-22T19:19:18Z lrs_: Im not really sure how you would do that?
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2014-09-22T19:19:48Z lrs_: Gah.
2014-09-22T19:20:19Z lrs_: I thought that function meant (x-1) but youre saying if you multiply the function it means just -1+-1?
2014-09-22T19:20:34Z turbofail: we're not multiplying functions
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2014-09-22T19:22:07Z turbofail: he's saying if you apply the function once you get x-1, and if you apply the function again on that you get (x-1) - 1
2014-09-22T19:22:25Z pjdelport: lrs_: Think simply. How do you apply f to x?
2014-09-22T19:23:11Z pjdelport: lrs_: And if x happens to be (f x), how you do apply f to *that*?
2014-09-22T19:23:18Z lrs_: Aha
2014-09-22T19:23:33Z lrs_: And F(n-2) = (x-1)-1
2014-09-22T19:24:56Z pjdelport: That's the idea, yes :)
2014-09-22T19:25:11Z lrs_: Well, I need help with this
2014-09-22T19:25:15Z lrs_: I dont know you do this in scheme
2014-09-22T19:26:18Z pjdelport: Just think about syntax, for starters: those questions i have above.
2014-09-22T19:26:32Z pjdelport: Remember, it's all just expressions and function application.
2014-09-22T19:26:47Z pjdelport: Like i was explaining earlier. :)
2014-09-22T19:28:11Z lrs_: (f x x)
2014-09-22T19:28:13Z lrs_: ??
2014-09-22T19:28:25Z lrs_: (f x)+x
2014-09-22T19:28:28Z lrs_: ?
2014-09-22T19:28:51Z pjdelport: Well, (f x x) will call f with *two* arguments: both x
2014-09-22T19:28:57Z lrs_: Ah
2014-09-22T19:29:07Z pjdelport: (f x)+x isn't Scheme syntax ):
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2014-09-22T19:29:12Z pjdelport: :) even
2014-09-22T19:29:38Z pjdelport: How about this: let's say you have "(f x)". How would you apply another function, g, to that?
2014-09-22T19:30:14Z suppi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2014-09-22T19:31:37Z lrs_: (+ (f x) x)
2014-09-22T19:32:15Z taylanub: that's  f(x) + x  in case that's what you were aiming at
2014-09-22T19:32:29Z lrs_: Thats the same as
2014-09-22T19:32:32Z lrs_: f(n-2)
2014-09-22T19:32:49Z taylanub: no, that'd be  (f (- n 2))
2014-09-22T19:33:33Z lrs_: So how do I translate this as a recursive call?
2014-09-22T19:33:34Z lrs_: I dont get it
2014-09-22T19:33:41Z lrs_: Ive been trying for 10 hours :|
2014-09-22T19:34:03Z lrs_: If f(n-2) is the same as f(x) + x
2014-09-22T19:34:06Z turbofail: i think there's still some serious communication mixups here
2014-09-22T19:34:15Z taylanub: recursion is when you define a function that calls itself.
2014-09-22T19:34:16Z taylanub: (define foo (lambda () (display "Imma calling myself!") (foo)))
2014-09-22T19:34:32Z taylanub: warning: that function will shout at you forever
2014-09-22T19:34:33Z lrs_: Thats what Im supposed to do right?
2014-09-22T19:36:14Z taylanub: I'm reading the backlog and it looks like pjdelport was trying to teach you some fundamentals whereas you keep rushing for the goal...
2014-09-22T19:36:29Z taylanub: lrs_: do you know any programming languages?
2014-09-22T19:36:34Z taylanub: or just math notation?
2014-09-22T19:36:49Z taylanub takes over the lesson -- tries his chance
2014-09-22T19:36:52Z lrs_: Well, Ive been trying to know how you write f(n-2) aka f(x)+x for 10 hours
2014-09-22T19:37:04Z lrs_: I also have ADD, so yeah, I am a bit rushed I guess
2014-09-22T19:37:15Z taylanub: it would help if you answered people's questions :)
2014-09-22T19:37:45Z taylanub: lrs_: do you know any programming languages?  or just math notation?
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2014-09-22T19:37:52Z lrs_: Only math notation
2014-09-22T19:37:57Z taylanub: ok
2014-09-22T19:38:08Z taylanub: does the notation  g(f(x))  make any sense to you?
2014-09-22T19:38:13Z lrs_: YEs
2014-09-22T19:38:19Z taylanub: can you explain what it means?
2014-09-22T19:38:43Z lrs_: Its a function g with the function f(x) in it
2014-09-22T19:38:47Z ARM9: common lisp: a gentle introduction to symbolic computation is a good intro read for getting into programming, especially lisps
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2014-09-22T19:39:07Z taylanub: lrs_: well, is it a definition of a function, or is it the notation to call a function?
2014-09-22T19:39:23Z suppi joined #scheme
2014-09-22T19:40:29Z lrs_: Hm
2014-09-22T19:40:40Z lrs_: A definition of a function
2014-09-22T19:40:42Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2014-09-22T19:40:44Z taylanub: nope
2014-09-22T19:41:07Z taylanub: of course it *could* be the definition a function, if for example I wrote:   h(x) = g( f(x) )
2014-09-22T19:41:15Z taylanub: then I would be defining h, by using g and f
2014-09-22T19:41:28Z taylanub: but when I only write  g( f(x) )  then I'm not defining anything
2014-09-22T19:41:54Z taylanub: I'm just expressing a value, by using two functions
2014-09-22T19:41:57Z taylanub: lrs_: you know what I mean?
2014-09-22T19:42:26Z lrs_: Right
2014-09-22T19:42:43Z taylanub: so, can you explain what  g(f(x))  is?
2014-09-22T19:42:52Z taylanub: (what it stands for?)
2014-09-22T19:43:14Z lrs_: Uhm...
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2014-09-22T19:43:28Z taylanub: how would you read it out loud?
2014-09-22T19:44:06Z lrs_: A function g (x) where its x is replaced with the function f(x)
2014-09-22T19:44:29Z taylanub: you still seem to confuse *defining* a function and *using* a function.  those are two different things
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2014-09-22T19:44:41Z gnomon: gee whiff eff whiff ecks whap whap
2014-09-22T19:45:20Z taylanub: gnomon: is that what that one guy developed for voice input?
2014-09-22T19:46:06Z gnomon: taylanub, no, I don't know if shorttalk includes any facilities for parentheses.  Let me check.
2014-09-22T19:46:13Z lrs_: taylanub, Im not really sure what Im supposed to say
2014-09-22T19:46:20Z ilammy: eleven?
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2014-09-22T19:46:48Z taylanub: lrs_: you would read "2 x 4" as "2 times 4", right?  or "multiplying 2 and 4"
2014-09-22T19:46:52Z lrs_: How would you use this function
2014-09-22T19:46:54Z lrs_: That isnt defined
2014-09-22T19:47:03Z taylanub: lrs_: just assume it to be defined, it's just an example
2014-09-22T19:47:14Z ARM9: imperative minds
2014-09-22T19:47:30Z taylanub: lrs_: another way to write that multiplication could be  multiply(2, 4)
2014-09-22T19:47:57Z taylanub: lrs_: just like "2 x 4" stands for the *action* of multiplying those two numbers,  f(x)  stands for the *action* of using f on x
2014-09-22T19:48:04Z lrs_: Oh ok
2014-09-22T19:48:11Z taylanub: "using" a function is also called "calling" a function, by the way
2014-09-22T19:48:29Z taylanub: so  f(x)  is a function call.  it's a call of the function f, on the value x
2014-09-22T19:48:43Z taylanub: given that, can you figure out  g(f(x))  ?
2014-09-22T19:50:23Z lrs_: "figure out" ?
2014-09-22T19:50:28Z taylanub: well, how you would read it out
2014-09-22T19:50:51Z lrs_: Function g doing it operations on f(x)
2014-09-22T19:50:53Z lrs_: :|
2014-09-22T19:50:57Z taylanub: LOL
2014-09-22T19:51:03Z taylanub: ok, I'll just spoil it then
2014-09-22T19:51:14Z taylanub: you call the function g on the value resulting from calling the function f on the value x
2014-09-22T19:51:21Z turbofail: well that's basically what he said
2014-09-22T19:51:24Z taylanub: in other words, calling g on the result of calling f on x
2014-09-22T19:51:35Z turbofail: just worded slightly strangely
2014-09-22T19:51:39Z taylanub: oh, it->its
2014-09-22T19:51:43Z taylanub: ok, I failed to read it right
2014-09-22T19:52:00Z taylanub: turbofail: but yeah, it also didn't have the assumption of eager evaluation, which is actually OK, but I'll need to instill that so hush :P
2014-09-22T19:52:29Z taylanub: lrs_: indeed, you were right too, it's g working on f(x), where f(x) is f working on x
2014-09-22T19:53:04Z taylanub: lrs_: the only missing point is that, most often in programming, when there is such a "nesting" of function calls, then the innermost function is called first, and then the next outer one is called on the resulting value
2014-09-22T19:53:26Z lrs_: The resulting value of the inner function
2014-09-22T19:53:30Z taylanub: yup
2014-09-22T19:53:51Z taylanub: so if you have  h(g(f(x)))  then first it does  f(x)  then it calls g on the result of that, and then it calls h on the result of g
2014-09-22T19:53:55Z lrs_: So in scheme it starts calculating the inner first
2014-09-22T19:54:00Z taylanub: yup
2014-09-22T19:54:34Z lrs_: So how do I write g(f(x)) in scheme
2014-09-22T19:54:35Z taylanub: almost all programming languages do it that way.  (the biggest exception is Haskell)
2014-09-22T19:54:55Z gnomon: taylanub, ah, the ShortTalk syntax for "(" and ")" is "laip" and "rye", respectively.  (!?)   cf. http://shorttalk-emacs.sourceforge.net/ShortTalk/quickref.pdf
2014-09-22T19:55:09Z taylanub: lrs_: in Scheme, the only difference is that you put the function's name inside the parantheses together with what it's being called on
2014-09-22T19:55:44Z taylanub: gnomon: very interesting; maybe it's easier for the software to recognize
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2014-09-22T19:55:52Z taylanub: lrs_: so for example,  f(x)  turns into  (f x)
2014-09-22T19:56:03Z taylanub: lrs_: can you figure out what  g(f(x))  turns into?
2014-09-22T19:57:15Z lrs_: (f (g x) )
2014-09-22T19:57:17Z lrs_: ?
2014-09-22T19:57:23Z taylanub: almost!
2014-09-22T19:57:27Z taylanub: think again
2014-09-22T19:57:43Z taylanub: you just made a small mistake
2014-09-22T19:57:54Z lrs_: (* f (g x))
2014-09-22T19:58:01Z lrs_: (f (g x) x)
2014-09-22T19:58:02Z lrs_: ?
2014-09-22T19:58:06Z taylanub: no no no
2014-09-22T19:58:22Z taylanub: you were very close the first time
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2014-09-22T19:58:58Z lrs_: (f (g x)) is as far as I get
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2014-09-22T19:59:06Z lrs_: I mean
2014-09-22T19:59:08Z lrs_: Yeah
2014-09-22T19:59:14Z lrs_: Or
2014-09-22T19:59:33Z lrs_: ( f(g x))
2014-09-22T19:59:38Z turbofail: (f (g x)) applies f to (g x), while g(f(x)) applies g to f(x)
2014-09-22T20:00:13Z lrs_: f(g x)
2014-09-22T20:00:25Z lrs_: f(g x))
2014-09-22T20:00:27Z taylanub: lrs_: you were right the first time except you mixed the order of f and g
2014-09-22T20:00:41Z lrs_: Hm? Order?
2014-09-22T20:00:50Z lrs_: You said it computes the inner first so I need to switch right
2014-09-22T20:00:55Z taylanub: (f (g x))  would be  f(g(x))
2014-09-22T20:01:23Z lrs_: ???????????
2014-09-22T20:01:36Z taylanub: lrs_: you misunderstood that part of what I said then
2014-09-22T20:01:41Z lrs_: (g (f x))
2014-09-22T20:01:45Z taylanub: yes
2014-09-22T20:01:47Z taylanub: correct
2014-09-22T20:01:48Z lrs_: Oh ok
2014-09-22T20:02:02Z taylanub: the "inner first" was just about how the computer does things
2014-09-22T20:02:11Z lrs_: I thought I need to switch the inner to be first because it compiles it first or something
2014-09-22T20:02:33Z taylanub: nah
2014-09-22T20:02:44Z lrs_: So what happens now
2014-09-22T20:02:50Z lrs_: f(n-1)
2014-09-22T20:02:56Z taylanub: now
2014-09-22T20:03:07Z taylanub: lrs_: "n - 1" is actually a function call
2014-09-22T20:03:18Z taylanub: lrs_: previously I said "2 x 4" could be written  multiply(2, 4)
2014-09-22T20:03:24Z taylanub: lrs_: can you guess how "n - 1" can be written?
2014-09-22T20:03:30Z lrs_: (f (- n 2))
2014-09-22T20:03:40Z taylanub: yes!
2014-09-22T20:03:47Z taylanub: (except 1 instead of 2, of course)
2014-09-22T20:03:53Z gnomon: .oO( "2"? )
2014-09-22T20:04:14Z lrs_:      (else (evn (- n 2)) n)))
2014-09-22T20:04:17Z lrs_: Is what I got now
2014-09-22T20:04:43Z taylanub: lrs_: not sure what the "n" is doing at the end there, show me your whole code again
2014-09-22T20:05:01Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/xGMvhbgK
2014-09-22T20:05:11Z lrs_: I need to replace f(n -2) with pred
2014-09-22T20:05:38Z taylanub: well, what's that lonely "n" doing there at the end?..
2014-09-22T20:05:46Z lrs_: I dont know, I just tested
2014-09-22T20:05:50Z lrs_: Though there had to be pairs
2014-09-22T20:05:55Z lrs_: ANd it had to count shit or something
2014-09-22T20:06:05Z taylanub: remove it, it has no business there
2014-09-22T20:06:19Z lrs_: Got it
2014-09-22T20:06:33Z lrs_: Cool
2014-09-22T20:06:34Z lrs_: It works
2014-09-22T20:07:01Z turbofail: do you understand why the `n' there was wrong?
2014-09-22T20:07:14Z lrs_: I understand the function
2014-09-22T20:07:23Z lrs_: The n was just a test thing
2014-09-22T20:07:37Z lrs_: Ive been trying various stuff for like 10 hours so
2014-09-22T20:08:57Z lrs_: Nice, im getting the hang of this stuff
2014-09-22T20:09:04Z taylanub: :)
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2014-09-22T20:09:16Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/F5JEmZpd < Heres the finished one
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2014-09-22T20:09:51Z taylanub: hm, you call pred twice.  why is that?
2014-09-22T20:10:12Z lrs_: (n-1)+-1
2014-09-22T20:10:13Z lrs_: Right?
2014-09-22T20:10:30Z taylanub: hm?
2014-09-22T20:10:47Z taylanub: oh, do you need to subtract 2 from n?
2014-09-22T20:10:52Z ilammy: because n has the same evenness as (n - 2)
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2014-09-22T20:11:09Z lrs_: Yes
2014-09-22T20:11:15Z lrs_: f(n-2)
2014-09-22T20:11:17Z taylanub: right.  it's OK then, just a bit strange because "pred" could just subtract 2 so you would need to call it once only
2014-09-22T20:11:21Z lrs_: else
2014-09-22T20:11:21Z ilammy: and, as I believe, he _has_ to use pred, not sub
2014-09-22T20:11:28Z taylanub: oh!
2014-09-22T20:11:34Z taylanub: I didn't get what "pred" stands for
2014-09-22T20:11:35Z lrs_: Yeah, but the problem was to use the definitioon of pred so
2014-09-22T20:11:44Z lrs_: Predeccesor i think
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2014-09-22T20:11:49Z taylanub: right, that
2014-09-22T20:11:57Z taylanub: it's correct then
2014-09-22T20:12:14Z lrs_: Do you guys want to help me with my last problem?
2014-09-22T20:12:34Z taylanub: just the spaces are a bit messed up.  ((= n  0) #t)  would be correct
2014-09-22T20:12:37Z taylanub: (just style)
2014-09-22T20:12:41Z ilammy: Believe me, it won't be the last one :)
2014-09-22T20:13:00Z lrs_: Heh
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2014-09-22T20:15:15Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/kX4qQ68t
2014-09-22T20:15:19Z lrs_: Heres what Ive done
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2014-09-22T20:15:54Z ilammy: You definitely should look into basic lambda-calculus in some free time. It really... settles the notion of calculation. At least, it did for me.
2014-09-22T20:16:34Z lrs_: I will
2014-09-22T20:16:47Z lrs_: I just have to get this finished first  :|
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2014-09-22T20:17:54Z lrs_: The cut off function is basically something that will give a 0
2014-09-22T20:18:01Z lrs_: If the result is a negative number
2014-09-22T20:18:44Z ilammy: Well, as I understand, (cut-off a b) basically returns (a - b) value, clamped to 0 if it negative.
2014-09-22T20:18:58Z ilammy: Like, substraction for natural numbers only.
2014-09-22T20:19:03Z lrs_: Right
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2014-09-22T20:20:22Z ilammy: So you can take the result of (cut-off a b) and if it is zero, it means that a <= b, so you can return b as a maximum, else it is a.
2014-09-22T20:20:34Z ilammy: Pretty similar to the min function you already have.
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2014-09-22T20:21:24Z lrs_: Right, im gonna make a max function
2014-09-22T20:24:49Z lrs_: ilammy, Im having trouble getting cut off to work though
2014-09-22T20:24:59Z lrs_: Same stuff as I had problem with the previous problem
2014-09-22T20:26:05Z lrs_: nvm, got it to work
2014-09-22T20:27:28Z ilammy: gave it a bunch of lashes? :)
2014-09-22T20:27:30Z lrs_: The cut-off that is
2014-09-22T20:27:35Z lrs_: The max Im still stuck on
2014-09-22T20:29:53Z lrs_: ilammy, PRetty much
2014-09-22T20:38:37Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/uwcG54b0 < Still stuck. If you'll help me Id appreciate it
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2014-09-22T20:54:30Z ilammy: Oh. Uh... You're missng a ). After zero. Parentheses are important.
2014-09-22T20:54:46Z ilammy: lrs_ ^
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2014-09-22T20:56:11Z lrs_: Hmmm
2014-09-22T20:57:28Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/km2ycz31 ilammy
2014-09-22T20:57:30Z lrs_: Doesnt work
2014-09-22T20:57:37Z ilammy: and x and y seem to be interchanged
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2014-09-22T20:59:04Z lrs_: interchanged? where
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2014-09-22T21:01:11Z ilammy: when you return the result
2014-09-22T21:01:26Z ilammy: you should return y when the value of (cut-off ...) is zero
2014-09-22T21:01:35Z ilammy: and x if it is not
2014-09-22T21:01:46Z ilammy: and you're doing the reverse now
2014-09-22T21:02:04Z lrs_: Like this? http://pastebin.com/VhnPFYTd
2014-09-22T21:03:29Z ilammy: ya, that should work
2014-09-22T21:04:06Z lrs_: Nope
2014-09-22T21:09:47Z lrs_: ;_;
2014-09-22T21:10:36Z lrs_: ilammy, Nevermind... I wrote   (cut-max(cut-off 2 3))
2014-09-22T21:10:37Z lrs_: -_-
2014-09-22T21:11:46Z lrs_: ilammy, But I guess I was supposed to use the cut-off thing..?
2014-09-22T21:11:55Z lrs_: Or no, it is defined in the function
2014-09-22T21:13:20Z ilammy: Well, you did use it to define cut-max, so I believe that's okay
2014-09-22T21:13:26Z lrs_: Yeah
2014-09-22T21:14:12Z lrs_: ilammy, Can I plague you with one last question?
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2014-09-22T21:14:41Z ilammy: sure
2014-09-22T21:15:07Z lrs_: The question itself is pretty vague I guess
2014-09-22T21:15:08Z lrs_: http://pastebin.com/ubhFuF13
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2014-09-22T21:15:36Z lrs_: But I have just a hard time understanding how the defintions off plus becomes mul
2014-09-22T21:15:39Z lrs_: Like, mathematically
2014-09-22T21:15:42Z lrs_: Functionwise
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2014-09-22T21:15:52Z lrs_: The steps from plus > mul > exp
2014-09-22T21:18:09Z ilammy: Well, a + b = a + 1 + 1 + 1 ... (b times). This is why plus is defined with succ (which does that +1).
2014-09-22T21:18:44Z ilammy: Then a * b = a + a + a + a ... (again, b times). That's why mul is defined in terms of plus.
2014-09-22T21:18:55Z ilammy: And a ^ b = a * a * a * a ...
2014-09-22T21:19:35Z lrs_: Yeah, I get that
2014-09-22T21:19:52Z lrs_: Im more curious on how
2014-09-22T21:19:56Z lrs_:  (succ (plus (pred a) b))))) = plus
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2014-09-22T21:20:01Z lrs_: and then how that is being called in
2014-09-22T21:20:07Z lrs_:  (plus b (mul (pred a) b)) ) ) )
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2014-09-22T21:20:19Z lrs_: Is it ( (succ (plus (pred a) b)))))) (mul (pred a) b)) ) ) )
2014-09-22T21:20:27Z lrs_: Do you get what I'm getting at? :|
2014-09-22T21:20:40Z ilammy: Well, _almost_ like that.
2014-09-22T21:21:06Z ilammy: You just need to add that 'lambda' thing for this expression to make sense
2014-09-22T21:22:03Z lrs_: ( lambda (a b) (succ (plus (pred a) b)))))) (mul (pred a) b)) ) ) )
2014-09-22T21:22:04Z lrs_: ?
2014-09-22T21:22:07Z ilammy: You can understand it is such way that when you write (plus b (mul (pred a) b)) the whole (lambda (a b) ...) that makes the definition of plus is substituted for the 'plus' in mul
2014-09-22T21:22:42Z ilammy: You can actually write ((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) 1 2) and get 3
2014-09-22T21:22:42Z lrs_: But the lambda a b in plush as two variables a and b
2014-09-22T21:22:54Z lrs_: What is a b in mul?
2014-09-22T21:23:08Z lrs_: And how does plus, mul and exp look mathematicall
2014-09-22T21:23:13Z lrs_: That is
2014-09-22T21:23:17Z lrs_:    (succ (plus (pred a) b)))))
2014-09-22T21:23:19Z lrs_: (plus b (mul (pred a) b)) ) ) )
2014-09-22T21:23:22Z lrs_:   (mul b (expt(b (pred(n)))b))))
2014-09-22T21:23:41Z ilammy: That is the concept of 'lexical scoping'. The a and b from plus have no meaning in mul.
2014-09-22T21:24:02Z ilammy: They make sense only inside the definition of plus.
2014-09-22T21:25:05Z lrs_: "They"?
2014-09-22T21:25:34Z ilammy: When you write, for example, (define foo (lambda (a b) ((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) (* a b) (- a b))))
2014-09-22T21:25:50Z ilammy: then in (+ a b) these are a and b from the inner lambda
2014-09-22T21:26:06Z ilammy: and in (* a b) and (- a b) the outer ones are used
2014-09-22T21:26:35Z ilammy: In this way a and b in plus cannot be confused with a and b from mul.
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2014-09-22T21:27:55Z lrs_: (plus b (mul (pred a) b)) ) ) ) What does that mean exactly
2014-09-22T21:27:58Z lrs_: Fuck
2014-09-22T21:27:59Z lrs_: Its so hard
2014-09-22T21:28:05Z ilammy: From mathematical point, such function definitons as identities.
2014-09-22T21:28:06Z lrs_: Like, the definition of plus is all strange
2014-09-22T21:28:09Z lrs_: Its like
2014-09-22T21:28:39Z lrs_: Fuck, I dont even know
2014-09-22T21:28:53Z lrs_: (plus b (mul (pred a) b)) = b + (a - 1) * b
2014-09-22T21:28:57Z lrs_: (succ (plus (pred a) b))))) = 1 + ((a - 1) + b)
2014-09-22T21:29:06Z ilammy: For example, you define mul as (define (mul a b) (if (= a 0) 0 (plus b (mul (pred a) b))))
2014-09-22T21:29:20Z lrs_: but what is (mul b (expt(b (pred(n)))b))))
2014-09-22T21:29:46Z ilammy: Well, _that_ is nonsense.
2014-09-22T21:30:07Z ilammy: It should rather be like... (mul b (expt b (pred n)))
2014-09-22T21:30:24Z lrs_: ITs correct though
2014-09-22T21:30:28Z lrs_: It does what its suposed to do
2014-09-22T21:30:28Z ilammy: If (expt a n) takes a to the power n.
2014-09-22T21:30:29Z lrs_: U_U
2014-09-22T21:30:57Z lrs_: That works too
2014-09-22T21:30:59Z lrs_: o.o
2014-09-22T21:31:03Z ilammy: I have no clue, how it does that :)
2014-09-22T21:31:13Z ilammy: (mul b (expt(b (pred(n)))b)))) <-- this
2014-09-22T21:31:44Z lrs_: Why do you keep a b in front of it
2014-09-22T21:31:46Z taylanub: that won't run, that's garbage.  it's tryin to call 'n' as a function.
2014-09-22T21:32:28Z taylanub: things will become easier if you put spaces in the right places by the way.  if you have no space before an opening parenthesis, it will confuse you.  (unless it comes right after another opening parenthesis)
2014-09-22T21:33:01Z taylanub: (f g(x))  <- this is extremely confusing because it looks as if it's calling g on x, but it doesn't.
2014-09-22T21:33:26Z taylanub: the right way to type that would be  (f g (x))  which calls x as a function (which is probably wrong, but at least it's clear what it's trying to do)
2014-09-22T21:33:35Z taylanub: anyway I'm out, gotta sleep, good luck
2014-09-22T21:33:49Z lrs_: taylanub, THanks alot
2014-09-22T21:34:04Z lrs_: ilammy and pjdelport  too
2014-09-22T21:34:09Z lrs_: You saved my ass
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2014-09-22T21:35:07Z lrs_: I think Im also off to sleep
2014-09-22T21:35:13Z lrs_: See ya
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2014-09-22T21:56:22Z arthurgleckler: who scheme
2014-09-22T21:56:52Z ijp: you scheme
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2014-09-22T22:30:28Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe
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