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2014-09-18T00:04:51Z pjb: jcowan: how different to here, where men are called persons and women are called persons, so only confusion remains.
2014-09-18T00:07:04Z jcowan: That's just sub/superclassing, nothing to do with identity.
2014-09-18T00:07:16Z jcowan: Unless you want to say that "named Robert" is a class.
2014-09-18T00:08:21Z jcowan: The whole virtue of 2 is that it doesn't have an identity, ergo it is a value.
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2014-09-18T00:20:13Z pjb: 2 has an identity: the identity of 2 is being 2.
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2014-09-18T00:24:42Z jcowan: In that case, what do you mean by value?
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2014-09-18T11:57:22Z taylanub: I'd say value and identity are the same thing.  Often the implementation exposes two equal values with different identities, but that's an implementation detail.
2014-09-18T11:58:29Z pyro-: but you can't have mutation or assignment without it
2014-09-18T11:58:55Z taylanub: contents don't determine value
2014-09-18T11:59:35Z pyro-: i don't follow you
2014-09-18T11:59:42Z taylanub: but I guess it's indeed an abuse of the word "value" when saying two pairs (1 . 2) and (1 . 2) aren't the same value...
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2014-09-18T12:01:52Z pyro-: to me creating new identities is one of the most important properties of cons
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2014-09-18T12:07:03Z taylanub: it's creating new values, from my viewpoint
2014-09-18T12:07:28Z pyro-: both!
2014-09-18T12:08:32Z pyro-: (equal? (cons 1 2) (cons 1 2)) ; it has recreated the same value
2014-09-18T12:09:03Z pyro-: (eq? (cons 1 2) (cons 1 2)) ; it has suppled the newly created calues with fresh non equal identities each time
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2014-09-18T12:11:58Z taylanub: what `equal?' tests is very vague, I wouldn't give it a fundamental and concrete name such as "value"
2014-09-18T12:12:22Z taylanub: but then I waste names by using the same term for "identity", "value", "object", etc. :P
2014-09-18T12:12:32Z taylanub: er, using all of those terms for the same concept, rather
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2014-09-18T12:16:33Z pyro-: there's an empircal difference between (cons 1 2) and (cons 1 2), in that set-car!'ing one doesn't change the other. i call that having seperate identity. but there is an emprical similarity in that (at least if mutation isn't involved), you can replace anything that evaluates to (1 . 2) with (cons 1 2) and the meaning of the program doesn't change, i call that having the same value. in (define a (cons 1 2)) (define b a), since (set-car! b) changes a, i
2014-09-18T12:20:10Z taylanub: yeah, we just disagree in the naming
2014-09-18T12:21:46Z taylanub: BTW your client seems to cut lines, it stops after "... since (set-car! b) changes a, i"
2014-09-18T12:22:19Z pyro-: how would you describe the difference between the two that looks the same but changing one doesn't change the other?
2014-09-18T12:22:30Z pyro-: oh, thanks, i will look into it. irssi
2014-09-18T12:22:35Z taylanub: containing the same values
2014-09-18T12:22:51Z pyro-: ah, i understand
2014-09-18T12:23:20Z taylanub: I think it's also called "structural similarity" or so
2014-09-18T12:24:42Z taylanub: well actually I'm wrong; containing the same values would imply, under my naming, that the two cons cells in the two lists ((1 . 2)) and ((1 . 2)) are the same cons cells
2014-09-18T12:24:46Z taylanub: the same cons cell*
2014-09-18T12:25:54Z taylanub: it's difficult to express in English :\  when saying "they *have* the same value" then it actually sounds fine even if their identities differ, but "*being* the same value" kind of implies same identity...
2014-09-18T12:26:21Z pyro-: i understand
2014-09-18T12:27:57Z pyro-: it's difficult
2014-09-18T12:28:04Z pyro-: especailly i'm sick and lightheaded :D
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2014-09-18T19:04:45Z vanila: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0
2014-09-18T19:04:50Z vanila: the guy steel e talk
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2014-09-18T19:31:36Z theseb: vanila: those scheme guys are scary smart
2014-09-18T19:32:31Z vanila: eyeah it's so cool
2014-09-18T19:32:52Z theseb: vanila: abelson has some nice vids too
2014-09-18T19:33:28Z vanila: any you would recommend ?
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2014-09-18T19:36:10Z theseb: vanila: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAY0_pesZ6s
2014-09-18T19:36:24Z theseb: vanila: i meant sussman
2014-09-18T19:36:26Z vanila: thanks!
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2014-09-18T20:21:33Z ecraven: I still wonder how much influence Guy Steele had on Java. It just seems really different in every aspect to Scheme.
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2014-09-18T20:28:13Z vanila: I think that mostly Guy Steele just specced it - and maybe guided it a tiny bit like he said in the talk
2014-09-18T20:28:21Z vanila: the language itself was already basically designed as I understand it
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2014-09-18T20:39:12Z pjdelport: Java was basically James Gosling's design, wasn't it?
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2014-09-18T21:33:12Z vIkSiT: hello all
2014-09-18T21:33:19Z vanila: hi
2014-09-18T21:33:37Z vIkSiT: hey vanila
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