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2014-09-16T00:09:11Z atomx_: hi
2014-09-16T00:09:51Z atomx_: I have just posted a question on stackoverflow. Can you answer me, please ?
2014-09-16T00:09:55Z atomx_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/25857871/load-a-module-without-evaluating-its-body-at-top-level?noredirect=1#comment40462542_25857871
2014-09-16T00:09:55Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/n8e3b5q
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2014-09-16T00:28:34Z atomx_: my question is no more valid here, as I solved it on #racket, thanks.
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2014-09-16T00:48:15Z vanila: in a two space GC based scheme how often does GC occur?
2014-09-16T00:49:17Z ijp: surely that's a "how long is a piece of string" question
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2014-09-16T01:17:39Z vanila: in a two space GC based scheme how often does GC occur?
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2014-09-16T02:06:22Z modernist: yeah
2014-09-16T02:06:26Z modernist: man
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2014-09-16T02:06:36Z vanila: hi modernist
2014-09-16T02:07:18Z modernist: vanila: how am I supposed to make money with scheme?
2014-09-16T02:07:40Z vanila: modernist, i should give up trying t write a scheme compiler, its way too hard
2014-09-16T02:08:08Z vanila: i put too much efort into it that i m neglecting everything else
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2014-09-16T02:09:34Z modernist: try stalin
2014-09-16T02:09:38Z modernist: or chicken
2014-09-16T02:09:58Z vanila: its not about that, i wnted to do it myself
2014-09-16T02:10:04Z modernist: supply creates its own demand
2014-09-16T02:10:12Z vanila: but closure analysis and liveness and stuff
2014-09-16T02:10:17Z vanila: basically the optimizations,, , they're too hard
2014-09-16T02:10:22Z modernist: hm
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2014-09-16T04:34:00Z lamC: Hi, all, there is an cps version of product function, https://gist.github.com/liweijian/00a0eab6225c5d28a878#file-cps-product-rkt , I am wondering the reason of using (let f ([ls ls]) here?
2014-09-16T04:34:00Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/lv2hwor
2014-09-16T04:34:39Z vanila: lamC, That's a named let - used to perform looping
2014-09-16T04:35:01Z vanila: ls is the intial value of ls, but on second iteration it will be (cdr ls), then (cdr (cdr ls)) down to '()
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2014-09-16T04:35:28Z lamC: Oh, I see, thanks vanila:)
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2014-09-16T05:15:40Z sigjuice: Anyone familiar with "Propagation of Constraints" from SICP?
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2014-09-16T12:23:26Z amgarching: hello, if I have closures over some object that needs to be destroyed when the closure is no more in use, what is the most obvious way to get (preserve) access to that object: (let ((obj (malloc-like-proc)) (lambda (x) (f obj x)))
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2014-09-16T17:51:11Z atomx: How can I run the test module in REPL under geiser ?
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2014-09-16T18:12:33Z taylanub: atomx: what "test module" do you mean?  the SRFI?
2014-09-16T18:12:42Z taylanub: (SRFI-64)
2014-09-16T18:13:35Z taylanub: if so, ",use (srfi srfi-64)" will do in the REPL, or "(use-modules (srfi srfi-64))" in code as well as in the REPL
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2014-09-16T18:31:20Z theseb: (append list_1 list_2) <==== you can think of this adding list_1 to LEFT side of list_2 as well as adding list_2 to RIGHT side of list_1 right?
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2014-09-16T18:32:02Z theseb: btw iirc...there's a command to add a number to the LEFT side of a list but not the RIGHT side right?
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2014-09-16T18:32:12Z theseb: sorry tryin to get it all straight in my noodle
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2014-09-16T18:33:56Z vanila: (let ((u '(a b c)) (v '(x y z))) (display (append u v)) (display u) (display v))
2014-09-16T18:34:14Z vanila: if you run this you will see that it doesn't change those two lists - it just produces a new one
2014-09-16T18:34:46Z theseb: vanila: yes...dunno why i was getting hung up about what *side* to imagine stuff gets added to
2014-09-16T18:34:50Z vanila: although it shares v - can explain if you like but it's only important when you do mutation
2014-09-16T18:34:52Z theseb: to construct the new copy
2014-09-16T18:34:58Z vanila: well okay consider this
2014-09-16T18:35:33Z vanila: (let ((u '(a b c)) (v (list 'x 'y 'z))) (let ((z (append u v))) (set-car! v 'hello) z))
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2014-09-16T18:38:44Z theseb: vanila: oh i know what was freaky..due to natures of conses..it is trivial to add a element to LEFT of list but not the RIGHT!?!? does that bother you/anybody?
2014-09-16T18:38:58Z vanila: yeah!
2014-09-16T18:39:03Z vanila: so u is copied
2014-09-16T18:39:06Z vanila: but v is shared
2014-09-16T18:39:19Z vanila: that's j ust because (list a b c) is (cons a (cons b (cons c '())))
2014-09-16T18:39:38Z theseb: vanila: so it isn't trivial to write a append-to-right-side function
2014-09-16T18:39:53Z vanila: well what do you want the function to do?
2014-09-16T18:40:02Z theseb: not the most brilliant insight..just making sure i'm thinking of this right
2014-09-16T18:40:09Z gnomon: theseb, you may want to look up TCONC
2014-09-16T18:40:20Z theseb: e.g. (append-to-right-side (1 2) 3) ->
2014-09-16T18:40:24Z theseb: (1 2 3)
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2014-09-16T18:41:10Z theseb: gnomon: i can guess that you have to walk down the linked list until you find the last cons to do the business of adding something there
2014-09-16T18:41:36Z theseb: i know it is possible....it is just funny how much harder that side is vs. left side
2014-09-16T18:42:11Z vanila: (cons (cons (cons '() a) b) c)
2014-09-16T18:42:23Z vanila: ifyou make lists this way, you could share the left instead of the right
2014-09-16T18:42:29Z gnomon: theseb, look up TCONC.  It's a list wherein the first (mutable) pair caches a pointer to the end of the list.
2014-09-16T18:42:45Z theseb: gnomon: nice..that's another way to do it! :)
2014-09-16T18:42:59Z theseb: someone always has a clever solution
2014-09-16T18:43:21Z theseb: vanila: yes but then my comment of asymmetry would apply to left side :)
2014-09-16T18:43:23Z gnomon: theseb, there is also a _very_ clever non-pair-based amortized O(1) list structure that Riastradh posted about a long time ago...
2014-09-16T18:44:33Z vanila: theseb, I don't think it would - you can share one side and not the other - which one you can share is arbitrary and the wahy that lists are built from conses determines it
2014-09-16T18:44:50Z theseb: right
2014-09-16T18:45:20Z gnomon: I think it was an Okasaki paper?
2014-09-16T18:45:27Z gnomon: http://www.usma.edu/eecs/SiteAssets/SitePages/Faculty%20Publication%20Documents/Okasaki/jfp95queue.pdf - might be that one.
2014-09-16T18:45:31Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/k5l5ka9
2014-09-16T18:46:22Z theseb: in python lists are the fundamental data structure....so i sometimes like to "forget" scheme lists are made of pairs/conses...it just sometimes annoys me
2014-09-16T18:48:11Z theseb: e.g. the asymmetry between right and left side in python would never come up
2014-09-16T18:48:55Z vanila: because python wickedly hides things from you
2014-09-16T18:49:04Z vanila: like the truth about lists
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2014-09-16T18:49:22Z theseb: vanila: YEAH!!!!
2014-09-16T18:49:31Z theseb: i like it..ignorance is bliss
2014-09-16T18:49:46Z theseb: vanila: no seriously....no one really cares about conses unless you ..
2014-09-16T18:50:02Z theseb: vanila: are trying to *implement* lists in C or assembly...then yes..it is a big deal
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2014-09-16T18:54:52Z gnomon: theseb, saying "no one really cares about conses" is an extremely broad generalization, and it's demonstrative of a certain presumptive narrowness of experience.
2014-09-16T18:55:44Z theseb: gnomon: yea..
2014-09-16T18:56:35Z gnomon: theseb, I'm not saying you're _wrong_, I'm just advising you to remember that statement and think about it again in a year or two.
2014-09-16T19:00:16Z vanila: Where acn i get lots of small example programs fro sche,e?
2014-09-16T19:00:44Z vanila: I took this https://github.com/pkrumins/the-little-schemer and SICP code and some from  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/scheme/code/bench/gabriel/
2014-09-16T19:00:45Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/lk4p7qj
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2014-09-16T19:06:34Z vanila: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/will/GC/sourcecode.html found these but theya are quite scry
2014-09-16T19:06:35Z vanila: scary
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2014-09-16T19:24:46Z turbofail: theseb: there's also some horrible problems with python lists though.  for example, because python lists are mutable, the length of a list is not necessarily constant
2014-09-16T19:24:51Z turbofail: which results in all sorts of fun surprises
2014-09-16T19:25:11Z turbofail: because of this, you DO have to care about how python lists are implemented
2014-09-16T19:26:12Z theseb: turbofail: ok..i'm open to your point but i don't see it......i've been using python for 11 years....what surprises come from lists have variable sizes? or did i misunderstand your poitn?
2014-09-16T19:26:17Z theseb: point*
2014-09-16T19:27:11Z turbofail: well usually the problem stems from doing something like append in a recursive function and forgetting that it will modify all references to that list
2014-09-16T19:28:02Z turbofail: or pop, actually
2014-09-16T19:28:13Z theseb: ah
2014-09-16T19:28:27Z turbofail: basically any time you try and use a list in a recursive function, you have to be careful
2014-09-16T19:28:53Z theseb: or having 2 names for same function....voodoo dolls
2014-09-16T19:29:00Z theseb: s/fnction/list
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2014-09-16T19:30:57Z turbofail: but even something as simple as the usual "loop over all the indices in this list" becomes odd if the number of elements in the list changes while you're doing it
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2014-09-16T19:36:06Z theseb: turbofail: i see what your saying....i rarely get bit from the mutability of python lists....i don't know if it is because i just avoid "dangerous" constructs by habit or what...it doesn't seem to be a problem in day to day work
2014-09-16T19:36:18Z theseb: for me at least
2014-09-16T19:36:44Z turbofail: yeah well it's not that hard to avoid them, but it discourages certain ways of using them
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2014-09-16T19:37:35Z turbofail: i typically don't get bitten by that either, but when i do it's annoying as hell
2014-09-16T19:39:33Z turbofail: also, once you start including threads in the mix, things get even more complicated
2014-09-16T19:39:43Z theseb: sure
2014-09-16T19:40:01Z theseb: i used to do parallel processing ...MPI stuff..that was fun
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2014-09-16T19:44:48Z turbofail: well MPI is shared-nothing, which eliminates the problem of shared access to mutable data
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2014-09-16T20:08:18Z theseb: is it ALWAYS easy to rewrite macros with intermediate functions to avoid EVER having to deal with multiple levels of nested quasiquotes and commas?
2014-09-16T20:08:28Z theseb: (i can handle *one* level but not deep nesting)
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2014-09-16T22:16:44Z vanila: Where could i get an overview of macro systems?
2014-09-16T22:17:05Z vanila: I want to implement on primitive macro system that will enable me to implement other macro systems like syntax-rules
2014-09-16T22:17:15Z vanila: would syntactic-closures be the best primtive?
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2014-09-16T22:20:24Z pjdelport: http://library.readscheme.org/page3.html ?
2014-09-16T22:20:44Z pjdelport: That doesn't narrow it down too much, obviously, but maybe a good list to scan through again?
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2014-09-16T23:09:49Z vanila: syntactic closures, reverse syntactic closures, explicit renaming
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2014-09-16T23:23:34Z vanila: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2008-04/msg00013.html
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2014-09-16T23:28:55Z vanila: where can I get riaxpander
2014-09-16T23:29:00Z vanila: i found it
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