00:01:08 a bit weird indeed! 00:04:31 -!- SrPx [b19dc86b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.157.200.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:08:49 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:51 maybe we should have a king elected by some farcical aquatic ceremony who will sort it out 00:09:46 *offby1* lobs a scimitar at DerGuteMoritz 00:12:53 I suppose SRFI's could rather go through some voting process before being finalized where people vote on consistent naming. 00:13:01 THe issue is, how are we now going to call a function that does that but for lists? 00:13:15 simple majority or two-thirds? 00:13:41 A quadruplet of map, vector-map, map-index and vector-map-index would be consistent 00:13:42 80% 00:13:48 It's just the name anyway. 00:13:54 I think it's fairly customary for vector-iteration procedures to pass an index in addition to the object itself. 00:14:32 Apparently, but there's no reason why this can't exist for lists 00:15:53 I actually kind of like the OCaml way how the module name is part of the function name in practice. String.from_int, Float.from_int etc all exist 00:16:36 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:52 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@76.Red-83-59-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:22:22 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 00:22:58 Scheme practically tends to do the same anyway, but doesn't force it, plus module systems tend to offer ways of renaming imported symbols. 00:25:11 Well, OCaml doesn't force it, you just get a conflict since pretty much every module with a datatyype offers from_int. 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Ora vector map that doesn't. 08:25:12 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:58 ubii [~ubii@198.45.198.1] has joined #scheme 08:25:58 -!- ubii [~ubii@198.45.198.1] has quit [Changing host] 08:25:58 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #scheme 08:26:00 Yes, PHP's inconsistent naming conventions have driven me to suicide in the past, I'm actually a zombie, why do you ask? 08:27:00 cdan [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has joined #scheme 08:28:01 cdan_ [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has joined #scheme 08:34:49 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:35:58 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38:02 -!- cdan_ [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:38:02 -!- cdan [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:41:20 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 09:02:10 -!- b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:02:43 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 09:13:50 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:14:39 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #scheme 09:15:00 dkordic [~danilo@109-93-178-73.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #scheme 09:39:51 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@78.179.247.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:44:19 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@76.Red-83-59-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:00:15 CADD [uid21876@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-owofrflaztknacye] has joined #scheme 10:06:36 bars0 [~Name@d143-96.icpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 10:13:39 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD61753.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:22:12 -!- Captain_Islaam is now known as KahviIslaamilain 10:26:29 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #scheme 10:43:20 przl [~przlrkt@p4FFF0C29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:04:17 -!- b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:08:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FFF0C29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:27:52 thevishy [~thevishy@59.96.201.195] has joined #scheme 11:28:29 how does (let ((a 1)) a) fit into the normal (+ 1 a) i.e operator operand pattern ? 11:39:36 let is usually syntax or a primitive procedure 11:57:39 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 12:01:04 przl [~przlrkt@p4FFF0C29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 12:02:21 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:09:17 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 12:13:51 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 12:14:23 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:16:51 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:02 -!- lolcow [~lolcow@105-236-33-151.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:19:41 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #scheme 12:21:51 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 12:24:03 thevishy: same way lambda, if, and define do 12:24:43 if you like "let" is the operand, and ((a 1)) and a are the arguments, but the evaluation order is different 12:25:05 s/operand/operator/ 12:26:32 yeah interesting 12:26:41 you saying let is a form ? 12:28:07 ijp : if you like is tricky :) 12:32:43 thevishy: the syntax is always (operator operand ...). if the operator is special, it gets it's operands unevaluated. if it is not special, it gets them evaluated. 12:32:49 its* 12:33:52 perhaps life would be simpler if we differentiated them syntactically, but we don't 12:34:26 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD61753.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:36:13 yeah its a bad syntactic sugar 12:36:38 its a bit like keywords in other languages right 12:36:52 the so called special forms 12:37:19 right 12:38:43 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:41:14 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD61753.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 12:47:24 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 12:50:57 leppie [~lolcow@105-236-33-151.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:02:09 cdan_ [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has joined #scheme 13:02:25 cdan [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has joined #scheme 13:06:51 taylanub [~taylanub@85.100.71.194] has joined #scheme 13:09:40 -!- ijp [~user@host86-132-92-12.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: M-x ejector-seat] 13:13:17 -!- leppie [~lolcow@105-236-33-151.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:18:01 leppie [~lolcow@105-236-33-151.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:47:14 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:13 thevishy, it evil in fact that it shares the same local syntax and in order to see if it's a function or special form you have to know the keyword. 13:48:37 Arguably different braces should be used for special forms which some style guides enforce but the language doesn't really. 13:49:37 -!- KahviIslaamilain [~nevzets@unaffiliated/nevzets] has left #scheme 13:50:01 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FFF0C29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:51:45 przl [~przlrkt@p4FFF0C29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:58:16 jewel [~jewel@41.52.192.193] has joined #scheme 14:06:48 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 14:41:42 ijp [~user@host86-132-92-12.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 14:43:51 -!- cdan_ [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:43:55 -!- cdan [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:44:37 cdan_ [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has joined #scheme 14:44:37 cdan [~cdan@95.76.67.170] has joined #scheme 15:25:23 m6502 [~user@lisp.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 15:32:53 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:39:34 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 15:57:52 arubin [uid489@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ksrncwzsivgpodnd] has joined #scheme 16:05:08 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:10:19 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 16:13:09 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:26:40 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.52.192.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:53:45 -!- m6502 [~user@lisp.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:38 langmartin [~langmarin@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 17:04:40 -!- langmartin [~langmarin@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:15:17 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 17:15:17 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Changing host] 17:15:17 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@unaffiliated/rageofthou] has joined #scheme 17:20:45 langmartin [~langmarin@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 17:23:02 tupi [~user@189.60.24.28] has joined #scheme 17:23:03 -!- thevishy [~thevishy@59.96.201.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:40 thevishy [~thevishy@59.96.201.195] has joined #scheme 17:24:12 -!- thevishy [~thevishy@59.96.201.195] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:24:36 -!- langmartin [~langmarin@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:48 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #scheme 17:24:50 thevishy [~thevishy@59.96.201.195] has joined #scheme 17:25:20 -!- thevishy [~thevishy@59.96.201.195] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:25:26 -!- fire [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 17:26:02 thevishy [~thevishy@59.96.201.195] has joined #scheme 17:26:25 langmartin [~langmarin@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 17:26:34 -!- thevishy [~thevishy@59.96.201.195] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:26:53 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 17:27:58 thevishy [~thevishy@59.96.201.195] has joined #scheme 17:35:58 -!- langmartin [~langmarin@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz] 20:40:14 amirouche [~amirouche@AMarseille-653-1-204-159.w2-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:40:50 héllo, I'm trying to understand why « let » exists, what is its purpose compared to language like python where no such thing exists. Thanks. 20:42:05 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD61753.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:49:42 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:09:04 -!- weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:02 weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 21:14:23 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:16:40 -!- stanislav [~stanislav@bl21-66-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:41 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:22:47 Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has joined #scheme 21:23:37 stanislav [~stanislav@bl21-66-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 21:30:14 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:08 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:00 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 21:37:36 amirouche: To introduce local/temporary variables. Other languages usually allow doing this in an ad-hoc way, by assigning a value to an undeclared variable (which declares it magically at that point), or allowing variable declarations to appear anywhere, interleaved with executable expressions, which implicitly determines the scope of the variable to be a subsection of the visible block, ... 21:39:19 A notoriously bad example is JavaScript, where all "var foo" variable declarations in a block are "hoisted" to the beginning of the block, so (function(){ var foo = 0; (function(){ foo = 1; var foo = 2; })(); return foo })() returns 0 instead of 1. 21:40:12 (To make that more readable, consider this pseudo-code: { var foo = 0; { foo = 1; var foo = 2; } return foo; }.) 21:41:52 so let allows to be explicit 21:42:07 about the scope of variables 21:42:13 amirouche: In other words, Scheme has a very clear distinction between introducing a new variable, and changing the value of an existing variable. You can't (set! foo 0) if foo doesn't exist yet. 21:42:31 I fail to understand why 21:42:48 is their a reason for «You can't (set! foo 0) if foo doesn't exist yet.» 21:43:24 it could just create a local variable if it doesn't exist 21:43:44 Such implicit behavior pollutes the semantics for no clear benefit. 21:48:40 -!- weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:55:09 This makes me wonder, what do modern C implementations do for a block like { int foo; { int bar; } } ? Would that actually stack-allocate bar after and deallocate it before , or are foo and bar allocated/deallocated together and the access to bar outside of its scope is merely a "linguistic" error that the compiler won't allow, so to say. 21:56:19 -!- stanislav [~stanislav@bl21-66-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:57:36 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD61753.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:36 stanislav [~stanislav@2.82.66.136] has joined #scheme 21:57:38 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61753.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:57:50 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has left #scheme 21:59:20 -!- stanislav [~stanislav@2.82.66.136] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:45 vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has joined #scheme 22:10:29 tenkyuu [~tenkyuu@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:10:50 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:21 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.24.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:12:27 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 22:17:20 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 22:19:50 jaccas [~pjfcl@3.182.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 22:22:27 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 22:22:32 -!- jaccas [~pjfcl@3.182.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has left #scheme 22:25:28 jaccas [~pjfcl@3.182.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 22:37:39 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@unaffiliated/rageofthou] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:43:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FFF0C29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:59 -!- leppie [~lolcow@105-236-33-151.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:49:51 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:51:07 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-95.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:52:08 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:52:16 leppie [~lolcow@105-236-114-20.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:55:02 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 23:06:37 -!- tenkyuu [~tenkyuu@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06:49 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:57 tenkyuu [~tenkyuu@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:20:15 defanor [~defanor@ppp91-77-169-181.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:22:07 -!- defanor- [~defanor@ppp91-77-166-176.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:22:49 -!- defanor_ [~defanor@ppp91-77-166-176.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:24:19 defanor- [~defanor@ppp91-77-169-181.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:24:34 taylanub, I highly suspect that { {int foo; } <...> { int bar; }} foo and bar would use the same stack locations. 23:30:43 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #scheme 23:32:13 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 23:33:55 In C89, nested blocks introduce new block scope for variables. In C99, you can declare variables at any point in a function and their scope extends from the point of declaration to the end of the enclosing block. 23:34:30 C scoping rules are actually more sane than Javascript scoping rules. :P 23:36:49 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 23:37:13 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #scheme 23:46:25 note however that in c99 the lifetime of an object with automatic storage duration starts at the beginning of the block it's declared in (and ends at the block's end), even though its scope might not 23:47:39 -!- arubin [uid489@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ksrncwzsivgpodnd] has quit [] 23:48:02 that is, in { int foo; } foo is alive in blah already, which may matter if it's accessed there via a pointer, and if blah is goto'd into from bleh 23:48:18 understandably, this doesn't apply to variable length arrays. 23:49:15 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:52:51 dsmith: You mean the same stack frame, or what does location mean in this context ? 23:57:39 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:57:46 amirouche: As you see, the rules to sanely support this just get more and more complex, and then you end up wishing your language supported `let' anyway because it's cleaner from a mental perspecive, at least when thinking in functional-programming style which Scheme encourages. 23:58:22 The extent of an automatic variable in C is from the start of the function or block in which it is declared until the end of the enclosing function/block. 23:59:10 And if that automatic variable has an initializer, the initialization happens upon entry at the *top* of the block. So you have to be careful with goto and switch. 23:59:19 I just noticed that dsmith's code snippet isn't identical to mine. Must've misunderstood my question, or I fail to see how that remark relates to my question ..