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[~jewel@105-236-178-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:30:42 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@89.202.203.51] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:59 pnkfelix [~Adium@89.202.203.51] has joined #scheme 15:34:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:36:56 -!- TLH [sin@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe96:99a5] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:41:38 TLH [~sin@amnezia.2f30.org] has joined #scheme 15:43:03 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:43:46 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:47:01 siag-offcie ftw!! 15:49:12 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-195-119.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:51:57 mmc1 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 16:00:12 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01:04 jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-137.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:03:30 https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2013-12/msg00061.html 16:03:43 was released yesterday. functional package manager that uses Scheme 16:03:54 i.e. the package description language is Scheme, using Guile 16:05:26 neat! 16:06:00 guix is awesome! :) 16:06:10 come help us write packages. #guix 16:06:26 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 16:07:58 *elly* will take a look after work 16:09:05 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-195-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:09:22 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-135-165.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:15:06 apparently it uses a lot of Guile-specific extensions, though, note 16:16:02 still, very cool 16:19:51 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:21:31 *sbp* looks at SIOD (used by siag-office, mentioned by azathoth99 above) 16:21:58 hmm... 16:21:59 x ftp-put.txt: (Empty error message) 16:21:59 tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors. 16:22:24 ugh, and it tarbombed 16:24:22 cool, it uses a Pratt parser 16:28:02 aranhoide [~smuxi@94.Red-81-33-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:28:58 whats a prat parser? 16:28:59 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:31:55 jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:31:58 -!- jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:31:58 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 16:33:12 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:33:24 azathoth99: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_parser 16:34:21 SIOD uses it to parse sexprs by the looks 16:34:29 e.g. parser_pratt.c:LISP pratt_read_token(LISP buffer,LISP chars,LISP stream) 16:38:14 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@94.Red-81-33-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:27 fadein [~Erik@c-67-161-246-186.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:39:30 does a pratt parser allow me to search kinda like regexes? 16:39:31 or? 16:40:01 er... kind of... 16:40:21 a parser is something that takes textual input and then makes in-memory representations of structures in that text 16:40:39 in this case, we have stuff like the string "(1 2 3)" going in 16:40:53 and then we get a linked list with the members 1, 2, 3, and () out 16:41:03 aranhoide [~smuxi@60.Red-79-157-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:41:10 a regexp is a sort of simple case of that. text in, but only captured text out 16:41:51 see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy#The_hierarchy for fun details 16:42:06 that's about the complexity of what you can parse 16:43:52 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:00 hm 16:45:24 can you use pratt to liek search logfiles? 16:45:30 instead of regex? 16:45:34 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 16:45:38 or is it not raealy a repalcment? 16:46:22 <`^_^v> parsing is not a search tool 16:47:31 oh 16:47:46 azathoth99: A parser will usually be an internal component of another program, not a stand-alone program. 16:47:47 technically you could, but you wouldn't because "parser" typically means more complex kinds of parsing 16:47:53 whereas search is very simple parsing 16:48:09 hm 16:48:13 azathoth99: For example a compiler or interpreter will usually have a parser. 16:48:35 what the most commonly used regexy pacakge in scheme? 16:48:52 O saw something about structural regexes on some lisp site 16:49:01 not sure if they are better.. 16:50:52 there are grey areas, like that JavaScript searcher someone made recently 16:50:55 can't find the link, grr 16:53:03 oh, this: http://graspjs.com/ 16:53:25 that uses a parser which is more complicated than regexp 16:53:28 but it uses it for searching 16:54:07 I also wrote a thing that would allow you to search in sexprs: 16:54:08 http://inamidst.com/lisp/serex 16:56:06 Hi, Gavino. 16:59:32 sbp, you cite SRE, but are you familiar with trx? http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/trx.pdf 17:00:35 http://john.freml.in/re2-benchmark 17:03:48 -!- SeySayux_ is now known as SeySayux 17:09:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:13:10 Riastradh: I wasn't; thanks! 17:15:17 this is pretty good 17:18:03 *sbp* wonders if jcowan and dpk know about this 17:18:22 chexing 17:18:31 sbp: i am here you know 17:18:38 yeah, yeah 17:18:40 hehe 17:18:41 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 17:18:54 no, i didn't know of this 17:19:09 Riastradh has enlightened us all 17:19:15 interesting 17:19:34 note that he does it my way, not your way. MY WAY! 17:19:46 what was my way again? 17:24:21 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:24:29 -!- quasus [~stanislav@bl6-188-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:24:52 ManDay [~ManDay@p4FEBFB32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:25:40 Does anyone know a good r6rs (guile, not racket!) web-based documentation/introduction (preferably not a tutorial à la "teach by examples")? 17:28:41 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@89.202.203.51] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:28:43 -!- mmc1 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:30:04 ria is smart 17:30:14 probly has a good chess game 17:30:48 ManDay: have you tried guile reference manual already? 17:31:01 your way was using the language and everything is a predicate 17:31:20 defanor_: no, not really 17:31:22 thanks 17:33:17 yw 17:35:45 Just a general question, if you don't mind: All languages which are said to implement scheme are actually rnrs compliant plus offer respective augmentations to the standard, right? so guile and racket (say) are indistinguishable as far as r6rs is concerned and they only differ in points which are beyond r6rs? 17:36:11 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 17:36:36 in theory, if an implementation says it's RNRS compliant, then it's RNRS compliant, yeah 17:37:13 all the good, useful stuff is outside RNRS though, as everybody knows 17:37:33 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:37:35 that'll be fixed in R8RS, I'm sure 17:38:29 sbp: I didn't know 17:38:55 What would you consider the most essential thing missing in the std? 17:38:55 yep, reasonable question 17:39:22 well, a standard set of print-a-likes would be handy, and standard environment introspection 17:40:05 and i miss standard C FFI, but it seems like a hard thing to do 17:40:09 a misunderfstanding 17:40:30 i meant syntactically, not library-wise 17:40:32 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD563B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:41:00 syntactically? it's lisp. everything can be anything! 17:41:39 "gramatically", then? 17:41:55 grammatically? what does that mean in the context of a programming language? 17:42:02 you want infixes or something? 17:42:23 I'm thinking of language features (not library features) that are in either Racket or Guile bot not in r6rs 17:42:31 sbp: Like that 17:42:46 Though I obviously not want them, But I'd count that towards language features as opposed to library features 17:42:52 oh, I see. er... dunno 17:43:00 I mean, take immutable cons cells from Racket for example 17:43:12 if you "introduced" them to Scheme, all hell would break loose wouldn't it? 17:43:20 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 17:43:27 like that person who asked for fexprs on the Scheme dev list not so long ago 17:44:12 what about an IR macro system, à la CHICKEN? does that count as a language feature? 17:44:57 it's a library, is it not 17:44:59 so no 17:45:03 ijp [~user@host86-185-215-47.range86-185.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:45:47 Or is it not? 17:45:58 I'm sorry, I can't answer that question 17:49:17 mmc1 [~michal@88.128.80.6] has joined #scheme 17:52:44 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 17:56:28 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 18:00:30 -!- mmc1 [~michal@88.128.80.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:28 quasus [~stanislav@bl6-188-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 18:02:02 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@60.Red-79-157-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:06:40 ManDay: some implementations make it so that you can use [] instead of () in specific places (let ([firstvar something] [secondvar someotherthing]) body ) 18:06:48 is that enough of a grammar change for you? 18:07:12 (the specific example i'm thinking of is in gauche. i'm very much a scheme newbie though) 18:07:19 http://cliki.net/cl-irregsexp 18:09:26 -!- wingo [~wingo@fanzine.igalia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:57 http://cliki.net/cl-irregsexp 18:21:35 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 18:33:00 Ogion: I don't know. 18:33:22 I came here with the impression that Lisp and Scheme in particular is one of those languages where you can basically redefine everything 18:34:04 So *if* it's theoretically possible to achieve this kind of syntax in, say, guile, by means of simple r6rs commands, then this would count as "library feature" 18:35:01 auxiliary "language features" to me are features which can *not* be reproduced in that exact form by simply emplying r6rs. 18:35:05 does that make any sense? 18:36:27 aranhoide [~smuxi@60.Red-79-157-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:38:35 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 18:38:55 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:13 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 18:40:27 ManDay: i guess it does make sense. and i guess the [] thing is probably just a macro, so i a way it's a language feature 18:40:47 essentially you're asking if different implementations parse differently 18:40:55 Matched square brackets can be used synonymouslywith parentheses. <-- from r6rs 18:40:59 hm, would different comment characters count? 18:41:37 like # is not really a valid comment char according to language specs, am i right? but variousimplementations implement it anyway so one can use it for a shebang ina script 18:42:06 If I write (define (myfunc a b) (+ a b)) there is a piece "(myfunc a b)" in that line - yet it's not an error although written on it's own it would. Why is that so? 18:42:30 read sicp 18:42:34 it has asnwers 18:42:42 azathoth99: directed at me? 18:43:53 i thought scheme used eager evaluation, so i wonder how that goes together 18:47:55 um, i can't remember anything about macros in sicp 18:48:34 but it could be achieved with macros. they could just transfer it to (define myfunc (lambda (a b) (+ a b))) 18:48:57 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 18:49:14 (which is equivalent to that definition) 18:51:18 but some things could be seen as special forms anyway, not everything evaluates by the same rules 18:51:49 well, i understand "lambda" is a syntactic element of the language then while "define" is not. but yet, (define lambda 1) gives no error and afterwards "lambda" is 1 - did I destroy the language or is it that "lambda" is not a syntactic language component either? 18:52:16 in other words: once I did "(define lambda 1)" - how do I get the original "lambda" back? 18:52:36 is there something yet more fundamental from which "lamdba" can be derived? 18:54:58 nope, lambda is most fundamental. lambda is 'syntax', and when you are defining it via define, you are just defining a variable with the same name as defined syntax keyword has 18:57:18 but i'm afraid to miss something here, so it'd be better if someone else will explain it 18:58:43 and, btw, there are defined rules, at least in r7rs, about what to do when you are defining it. will try to find it, wait 19:01:04 -!- vraid [d91bbc5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.27.188.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:01:30 defanor_: I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess if there is something like "Undefine" somewhere, and I call it on my "lambda" variable, the original "lambda"-keyword will become visible again 19:01:35 (and I can't undefine that) 19:04:09 I just tried the following and I'm a bit disappointed that it did not work: (define (noop x) x) and then (lambda (noop a) (+ a 3)) 19:06:10 there's no 'undefine', and 'lambda' as syntax could be visible still. actually, i'd think that it should be, but it becomes unusable in guile, so i'm lost here 19:06:17 and what have you tried to do with that? 19:06:42 first argument of 'lambda' expression is 'formals', not an expression 19:06:43 defanor_: Oops, I just realized that my "lambda" is still "1" - so of course it did not work... restarting. 19:07:14 I was trying to examine the logic behind the "lambda" keyword accepting unbound variablenames as their arguments but others not. 19:07:32 btw, i've found just this about macros in r7rs now: http://lpaste.net/2328710961285824512 19:09:13 defanor_: I hoped that there was some consistent logic to that, namely that: "If there is an unbound variable in a procedure call, just pass it to the prodcedure ubound (e.g. lambda can deal with getting passed unbound variables))" 19:09:43 unfortunally, it does not appear to be case and refering to not (yet) existing variables in (lambda ...) really only works because it's some special syntax 19:09:49 at least my understanding thus far 19:10:39 defanor_: I don't know what transformers are, yet, so I don't understand that 19:11:14 defanor_: Do you happen to know R? 19:12:23 ManDay: http://sprunge.us/SdWQ 19:12:38 it does seem there is something weird going on 'writing' over lmabda 19:12:40 ManDay: nope. and i think i don't understand your previous messages, not clearly 19:12:43 *lambda 19:13:34 but probably it's better to think about all those macros-related things as about 'special forms' until you'll learn them 19:13:55 s/macros-related/syntax-related 19:14:46 defanor_: yes, I just happen to arrive at 3.3.1.4 of `info guile` and they also simply refer to such statements, which may take unbound/unevaluated expressions as "special". May be the hopes I put into scheme were a bit too high as far as minimalistic consistency is concerned =) 19:15:02 but then, perhaps I will learn about something unifying these "special" things somehow 19:16:53 -!- weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:16:56 ManDay: most of them are not really 'special', just done so via macros to be easier to use. and those which are special, are special with purpose 19:17:50 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 19:18:11 it's not just a grown up lambda calculus, but minimalistic and consistent still, imho 19:19:14 and some of my answers could be not correct, so beware 19:19:25 defanor_: in my opinion, it would be consistent if the operation of keywords such as "if", "set" and "lambda" may be defined through one unified (special) syntax (which is also available to define arbitrary other keywords by the user) 19:20:18 If they were all just macros, that would be it - but unfortunally they are probably not 19:20:47 anyway, it's probably too early for me to draw any conclusions 19:20:50 *ManDay* back to reading 19:22:14 they aren't, but you need some fundamental things anyway, to start from. and if it'd be based on pure lambda calculus, SKI, or smth similar, then it'll be not practical, most likely 19:23:52 i mean, 'if' could be a macros over cond, but there will be cond then. not sure about caveats if you'd implement it only with lambdas though 19:23:58 there were some, afair 19:24:02 -!- quasus [~stanislav@bl6-188-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #scheme 19:24:41 as a pure matter of taste, I'd like to have seen those fundamental things to have a special, unique appearance - (like being enclosed in delimiters which are reserved for exactly that purpose) 19:25:07 ( like ~if ~while ~lambda - all prefixed with a tilde ) 19:26:52 lately i thought that it'd be nice to see them in a separate chapter of specification btw 19:27:24 what is potentially annoying is "set!" - i mean, why the "!"? 19:27:33 but, still, if you have a pair of them, where one could be expressed via another, it's hard to decide which one is fundamental 19:27:51 i understand lisp is different, but shouldn't we reserve punctation for special, syntactic purpose? 19:27:57 it indicates that 'set!' mutates the state 19:28:32 defanor_: That would simply be the task of the spec - to decice which is fundamental and which is defined via the other 19:28:55 why not "define!"? 19:29:12 doesn't that mutate state, too? 19:29:17 syntax is minimal, just s-exp and a little syntax sugar. it does not require punctuation 19:29:52 http://common-lisp.net/projects/cl-irregsexp/ 19:30:00 right, still, in that case the use of punctation should be left up to the user and avoided as far as possible in the core language 19:30:11 -!- noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:30:38 noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has joined #scheme 19:32:22 define mutates or adds something to environment, but it's different when it's not top-level 19:32:43 closer to 'let' than to 'set!', i think 19:32:47 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:33:22 hm 19:34:03 not quite happy with it :-p but I guess the naming of the keywords is detail which takes little from the overall quality of the language :) 19:34:10 and again about punctuation - it's a convention, which helps you to see some things. same with predicates: you always see if a functions is a predicate, which helps 19:34:26 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:34:51 arubin [uid489@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uwuyakhbnubjkvmr] has joined #scheme 19:35:39 defanor_: principally, i'm of the opinion that for the core language (and perhaps even library) any convention but "keep it as plain as possible" should be avoided 19:35:46 vraid [5fc78f6e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.199.143.110] has joined #scheme 19:35:50 of course you are right that it helps to distinguish things 19:36:37 but then, this is probably little to not needed at all for schemer while, on the other hand, it's just an irregularity in the core language 19:37:17 (the real problem with which is that it suggests a meaning of those symbols were actually, the language should have no bias towards punctation, whatsoever9 19:37:22 s/9/) 19:39:44 why should it have bias towards languages (naming functions in english) then? i think, it all is just to help users to read and remember names 19:41:58 but i'm not a scheme expert, so, just in case, will repeat: beware, my answers could be not correct 19:44:03 defanor_: You're quite correct, in my opinion. The bias towards language is principally the same thing. But while reasons to deviate from the "as plain as possible" guideline (i.e. convey specific characteristics of the keywords, such as "set!" mutating the environemtn) appear rather insignificant, the reasons for using English to name the keywords are apparent. Consider the altneratives: A different language 19:44:06 would be absurd. Using symbols instead of any language at all has two major downsides: 1) Hard to remember (much harder than remembering that "set!" mutates the environment, which is part of its definition) 2) Again we would have a heavy bias towards puncations. 19:45:36 So I think English for naming the keywords is a reasonable choice, while trying to "pack as much of self-documentation into the keywords as possible" by augmenting them with punctation and overly descriptive names (latter not really the case here), is questionable. 19:46:28 but as I said: Just a matter of personal taste. And I'm very opinionated :) 19:47:06 also, being a fanatic minimalist, I guess I'd find something to complain in any case 19:47:49 ManDay: have a look at tcl 19:48:08 http://antirez.com/articoli/tclmisunderstood.html 19:48:47 tcl, as in tcl tk? 19:48:48 btw, using english for naming schemes is only "reasonable" for english speakers ;) 19:49:05 yes, thouogh tk is just a toolkit built on tcl, tcl works just fine without tk too 19:49:16 Ogion: I'm german, yet I would strong suggest against using German names :) 19:49:39 i'm german myself and why not? 19:49:40 :P 19:49:40 Ogion: I did some tcl a few years ago 19:49:56 if you're the only intended programmer to read your own source, what's wrong with doing it in german? 19:50:02 and I don't remember it being particularly appealing 19:50:22 Ogion: I'm speaking of the (few) (syntactic) keywords of a language 19:50:28 it's very minimalist 19:50:30 @tcl 19:50:49 ManDay: yes, but as i said, english has no inherent advantage. the only reason for english is the larger number of speakers 19:50:50 languages are usually targeted at an international audience, so use either english, russian, or chinese. i.e.: use english ;p 19:51:07 Ogion: Yes, that's exactly the advantage 19:51:10 More people speak it. 19:51:37 Ogion: @tcl, yes, but I also remember it being not completely self-consistent (as far as this can be called so), either 19:51:49 If I had a pound for every time I heard someone mention tcl in the past 5 years, I'd have 3 pounds 19:51:54 and notably less powerfull than, say, scheme 19:52:04 ijp: :) 19:52:14 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 19:52:29 i don't claim to be proficient in tcl, i just read that interesting article i linked recently :P 19:52:50 (*read it recently) 19:52:55 back when i used it, I used it in SCILAB to write user interfaces and stuff with tcl tk 19:53:35 since then, i became a gtk evangelist and despise every other toolkit religiously :-D 19:54:05 well as i said, tcl itself is no toolkit :P 19:54:56 % set a pu; set b ts; $a$b "Hi ManDay" 19:54:57 Hi ManDay 19:54:58 :P 19:55:21 (yes tclsh first expanded $a$b to puts and then called the command puts) 19:56:25 Ogion: ...could say the same of bash.... 19:58:16 the reason why my interest in scheme got revived is that I'm looking for an (elegant) (scripting) language which allows me to implement a tensor-calculus library where tensorial operations can expressed naturally 19:58:41 i guess if scheme doesn't allow for it I need to write my own language (which I wont, there are already languages for that) 19:59:21 i couldn't say, as i said i'm not very advanced with scheme (and much less maths :P) 19:59:39 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:00:21 i'm not sure how much i will be frowned upon here if i link this but you could also look at http://www.newlisp.org/ 20:00:26 an example would be that I could write: T_ij A^ik where T and A are objects/variables and the i j and k just refer to indices of those array-like objects 20:00:59 like literally "T_ij A^ik" ? 20:01:32 honestly, that sounds like you should pick a nice language and then use a parser/write a parser in it 20:01:47 Ogion: yes, literally 20:02:48 Well, I hope not. If Scheme is flexible enough through redefining syntax, it should be doable 20:04:58 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 20:05:07 i don't think parsing should be that hard, and if you combine it with some macro for nice frontend i suppose it might do what you want 20:08:25 btw, ManDay have you looked at racket? it's specifically for language extension and creation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racket_(programming_language) 20:08:30 (it's in scheme too) 20:08:50 the point with parsing is that the parser supposedly produces one rather static output format. What I want to get from sth. like T_ij A^ik should again be a very flexible object which can used "normally". I guess C++ would easily allow for this with its notorious operator redefinitions, but I don't really like cpp :) 20:09:42 Ogion: let me just look at guile first. if it doesn't do what I want, I have at least learned scheme and I can understand the differences to racket faster 20:10:21 sure 20:12:10 -!- noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:12:45 noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has joined #scheme 20:15:32 ManDay: not sure, but maybe it's what you'd want to know (about "redefining syntax"): scheme's [standard] syntax is quite flexible, but is bounded by s-expressions, and macros requrie syntax keywords (an identifier at the start of s-exp) 20:17:43 hm 20:17:53 That doesn't sound like what I want :-( 20:18:37 So it will never be possible that I define two objects T and A and *only* write T_ij A^ik and something happens? 20:20:02 you could write (T_ij A^ik) and something will happen if T_ij is some macro's keyword or a function, or if you'll use/write additional parser for that, but if it's not s-exp, it'll not be valid scheme syntax 20:20:13 What about (doMyStuff T_ij A^ik) where, again, only T and A are defined as objects - is it possible to write a procedure doMyStuff which makes sense of the _ik and ^ik (i.e. is "special" in that it does not need the the T_ik and A^ik evaluated) 20:20:41 defanor_: I thought let-syntax and friends would allow me to do arbitrary magic 20:21:08 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #scheme 20:21:10 yep, it's possible in guile to extract first letters there 20:21:19 and other letters, and to do something 20:21:29 that's good then 20:21:33 I can live with that 20:21:46 check syntax-case for that 20:21:57 understood 20:22:06 you'll probably need to convert symbols to strings and parse those strings 20:22:30 Hm, I was rather hoping to define the _ and ^ as some sort of infix operator or so 20:22:40 (by means of macros or let-syntax) 20:22:53 it'll parse 'T_ij' as a single identifier 20:23:16 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [] 20:23:40 ManDay: scheme is pretty dead set on the whole prefix thing 20:23:42 That's unfortunate, I see myself making a lot of compromises then - I guess T _ i j would still work, though, if Scheme need whitespace, I'll give it whitespace :) 20:24:09 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 20:24:17 yep, that will work 20:24:30 ijp: I even thought I had heard people say that by means of let-syntax you could basically turn LISP into every langauge you want 20:24:50 i guess let-syntax isn't the swiss-army knife I had hoped it would be 20:25:05 it's not quite true 20:25:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:12 defanor_: No problem there if i and j are not bound in that scope, right? 20:25:21 if you want infix and all that, you'll need to write a parser 20:25:37 ijp: That kind of defies the point of choosing lisp for it :) 20:25:38 ManDay: if you'll do something with them by macros, then no problem 20:25:52 but thanks, I'll see how I deal with those compromises I have to make in order not to write a parser 20:25:55 ManDay: then you'll need to choose something else 20:26:20 ijp: I'm open for suggestions, of course 20:27:12 -!- vraid [5fc78f6e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.199.143.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:30:55 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 20:32:38 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:34:39 ManDay: maybe something here helps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_software ? 20:34:39 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #scheme 20:35:05 what's the the story behind 'hunoz being used as a variable? 20:35:38 excuse me? 20:35:45 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:36:06 guy steele uses it in the lambda papers and elsewhere 20:36:39 you mean the symbol "hunoz", or just symbols in general? 20:37:00 that particular symbol 20:37:10 hmm, I don't remember that 20:37:23 it might be pronounced "who knows"? 20:38:11 atually I"m sure that it is because I see it paired with hukairz in the art of the interpreter 20:38:45 (pg 37) 20:38:55 huh, so there is 20:40:43 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 20:41:50 -!- ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has quit [Quit: Our valued destiny comes to nothing] 20:42:46 zarul [~zarul@ubuntu/member/zarul] has joined #scheme 20:44:21 it looks like they are just there so that you don't need a BEGIN 20:44:45 I'd need to reread it to figure out why that is desirable 20:45:15 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:10 vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has joined #scheme 21:00:13 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #scheme 21:07:57 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 21:08:29 thanks everybody 21:08:30 -!- ManDay [~ManDay@p4FEBFB32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 21:22:49 -!- Ogion [~Ogion@203.Red-88-9-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:24:43 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:04 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 21:31:39 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:36:38 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:45 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #scheme 21:38:40 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:50 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:39:57 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #scheme 21:40:25 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 21:42:00 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:06 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #scheme 21:53:33 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:54:00 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:06 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #scheme 21:55:36 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:57:53 zzach [~zzach@dslb-092-073-094-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:56 when using large network fulla vmware solr redis mongodb iis cold fusion windows ubuntu etc, I can't help but think that with scheme this could all be solved better 22:00:51 Is it possible to somehow eval a string and access lexically bound variables? (eval (read (open-input-string ...))) does not seem to get lexical variables. 22:01:36 whats a lexical variable? 22:01:39 local or global? 22:01:42 I forgot 22:01:44 azathoth99: fuck off gavino 22:02:11 zzach: depends on the scheme, but usually no 22:03:17 in guile, you can use "the-environment" and "local-eval" 22:03:23 azathoth99: variable is local, defined like (let ((varname val)) ...), eval is tried inside ... 22:04:17 ijp: thanks, will try it in guile. Anything similar known for racket and gauche? 22:04:20 the one argument version of eval is an implementation specific extension too 22:04:51 zzach: I don't know 22:05:38 -!- strobe [~user@188.168.72.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:08 ASau` [~user@p54AFE651.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:09:29 -!- ASau [~user@p5083DB38.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:09:32 Want to have a repl with access to local variables inside a function. Would it be possible to get such a repl using continuations? 22:09:42 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 22:10:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-137.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:10:54 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@60.Red-79-157-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:39 aranhoide [~smuxi@60.Red-79-157-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:11 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:19 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 22:17:51 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:12 kobain [~sambio@190.57.227.106] has joined #scheme 22:18:22 -!- kobain [~sambio@190.57.227.106] has quit [Changing host] 22:18:22 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 22:31:21 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD905AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:31:50 TaylanUB [tub@p4FD90D3C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:32:17 zzach: continuations have nothing to do with it 22:40:00 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:52 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:45:09 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:41 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:12:47 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@60.Red-79-157-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:22:43 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 23:27:39 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 23:28:22 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 23:33:30 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 23:33:32 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 23:35:00 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 23:36:23 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.206.121.42] has joined #scheme 23:38:14 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 23:41:20 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.206.121.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:00 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:22 rudybot [~luser@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 23:53:05 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD563B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:54:40 -!- gf3 [~gf3@aether.gf3.ca] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 23:58:11 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD563B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme