00:01:02 Riastradh: thanks for the hint, it works now using ,(car pattern) instead of ,pattern . 00:05:59 That doesn't avoid the error I described... Perhaps you mean ',(car pattern) instead of ,pattern but just ,(car pattern) will have the same problem (unless the Scheme system you're using for some reason allows referring to macros as if they were variables). 00:10:01 Riastradh: yes, it is better, with ',(car pattern) it returns indeed mname1, without the quote, it (Gauche) returned # . 00:14:10 Well, Gauche is silly if it does that without complaint... 00:14:15 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:20:19 The world would be much better if people invested into quality of implementation rather than vapourous simplicity. 00:23:37 Natch [~Natch@c-63cde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 00:32:29 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:33:37 -!- jyc [~jyc@173.245.6.163] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 00:34:17 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 00:35:14 jyc [~jyc@173.245.6.163] has joined #scheme 00:39:50 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:40:29 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:44:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:46:19 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:48:23 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60126.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:48:31 'quality' is multi-faceted 00:49:33 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 00:50:33 if in a group you sit down and decide what quality is, then this is ideal, other times when realities of dealing with stubborn idiots you might want to go with simplicity, as these idiots will errode an aspect of quality that they don't understand 00:51:21 -!- karswell` [~user@87.113.101.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:57 -!- kobain_ [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:59:04 I define quality as a continuous process, not a static thing. like the scientific method 00:59:16 but also it must be fun and have an artistic side to it 01:01:49 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:13 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 01:07:11 vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has joined #scheme 01:16:26 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:21:40 jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:21:43 -!- jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:21:43 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 01:36:48 hillgreen [~gxd@182.48.115.163] has joined #scheme 01:37:40 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 01:38:58 -!- hillgreen [~gxd@182.48.115.163] has quit [Client Quit] 01:43:47 m4burns [~m4burns@happierface.convextech.ca] has joined #scheme 01:44:55 pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 01:46:59 hillgreen [~gxd@182.48.115.163] has joined #scheme 01:49:45 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:51:57 rien [~user1@38.105.226.18] has joined #scheme 01:54:56 Guesticles [62de1665@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.222.22.101] has joined #scheme 01:55:16 What is the best program to write Scheme in? 01:56:00 a text editor 01:56:22 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 01:58:03 :-\ 01:59:08 Guesticles: emacs is typically used 01:59:15 yeah, text editors are awesome. a lot of people prefer emacs, afaik, including me. but try and decide for yourself 01:59:45 I'm going to admit it's for homework 02:00:04 This is our only assignment using Scheme, and I'm totally lost. :( 02:00:21 drracket is easy 02:00:30 I'm using DrRacket 02:01:25 -!- fdr [~rafaelfdr@ps53163.dreamhost.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:25 i know what it feels like to be totally lost so you can ask questions you think are dum if you like 02:01:33 yeah in that case dont use emacs. its not worth learning for one assingment. drracket is good 02:05:33 -!- rien [~user1@38.105.226.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:05:49 Guesticles: a change of editor will probably not make it clearer, focus on the code logic instead 02:06:44 vraid: Yea, I just wasn't sure if there was anything better out there for noobs than DrRacket 02:07:12 I'm used to programming in Java, so this just makes my brain hurt 02:07:31 And I work full time as a WebDev, so that doesn't help either 02:08:59 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:09:33 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 02:09:55 ah, you want code completion and those things? 02:10:40 Yea, we were given part of an assignment and responsible for writing the rest 02:13:48 the one about a newspaper being profitable? 02:14:27 Negative 02:15:04 ah, was my best guess 02:15:10 but just ask if you need some help to get started 02:15:45 Thanks :) 02:16:19 and before you start, forget everything you know from java 02:19:26 timsg [~timsg@pool-71-178-11-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:29:10 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 02:29:19 -!- hillgreen [~gxd@182.48.115.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:33:11 jcowan [~John@earth.ccil.org] has joined #scheme 02:35:38 hoi 02:50:54 vraid: I'm leaving my current school, which I haven't attended any comp sci classes yet, but it is a m$ school and java school. 02:51:05 I'm going to go to a creative art school for comp sci. 02:51:27 @ least for my undergrad studies 02:51:45 I'm not saying that java is bad, as I don't know java, but yeah. 02:51:58 m$ is bad though. 03:04:53 dlnt [~dlnt@50-51-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 03:06:06 zacts: creative arts offers comp sci? 03:06:14 Hello to you. 03:07:07 And hello to you too 03:08:06 weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:09 daverce [~user@50-38-14-53.lagr.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:37 What langauges do you use to speak in here? 03:09:06 English, mostly, with a little Dutch, Esperanto, and Classical Greek. 03:09:18 Glad to hear. 03:09:39 ouie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:53 What do you mean by Classical Greek? That is - ancient greek? 03:11:24 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:13:21 -!- weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:14:17 I like C# over Java. 03:14:23 dlnt: classical greek was greek spoken before the times of alexander 03:14:32 Their MVC is far superior to Java's spring framework 03:14:36 followed by koine greek, which developed into medieval greek 03:17:09 Koine greek? 03:17:33 koine greek. 03:17:41 (Nods) 03:18:05 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 03:18:08 So, you understanr greek, probably? 03:18:15 not me 03:18:18 Any greek. 03:18:47 What is MVC? 03:19:55 Model-View-Controller, a programming paradigm. 03:20:03 any opinions on haskell and it's type system? at the moment the type stuff is sucking the joy out of FP for me. 03:23:45 Most of you are LISP lovers? Or people who just like to try LISP sometimes. 03:24:12 vraid: sort of yeah 03:25:40 Riastradh [~riastradh@jupiter.mumble.net] has joined #scheme 03:26:53 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 03:27:45 There are many Lisp experts here, others who are programmers but not experts. Note that Lisp is a family of languages, of which Common Lisp (at #lisp), Scheme, and Emacs Lisp are probably the most well-known. 03:38:14 -!- zzach [~zzach@dslb-092-072-001-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:38:50 zzach [~zzach@dslb-084-063-142-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 03:45:20 I am not a Lisp expert; I am a free variable! Wait...what's going on? 03:46:02 Riastradh: dlnt wishes to be informed about the sort of people we have here. His/her English is limited. 03:46:19 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:46:56 We're the most wretched hive of scum and villany on Freenode here... 03:47:00 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 03:47:49 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 03:48:45 Riastradh: No, that would be #emacs. 03:49:48 I read the log. What suggests dlnt's English is limited? 03:50:42 PMs I am having. 03:50:47 kvda, you should learn to use type classes in Haskell. They are the most important linguistic innovation in decades. 03:51:10 oxum [~oxum@122.164.87.241] has joined #scheme 03:51:13 Of course, you could learn to use them in Scheme. 03:51:27 SRFI 114 is all about a type class. 03:51:28 Here's a cute application of type classes: . See the bottom page for what it turns out to look like. 03:51:37 hillgreen [~gxd@182.48.115.163] has joined #scheme 03:51:45 jcowan, no, you can't. There's no static type system to drive the decision of what instances to pass around. 03:51:55 thanks Riastradh , i need more examples 03:51:59 Wherefore you must do it explicitly. 03:53:13 s/.$/? 03:56:53 Not really. The overhead of explicit syntax to write it down and explicit checks to make it safe makes it impractical. 03:58:29 That's an argument against Scheme in general. 03:59:44 Scheme is better for working in domains where the examples are clear but the formal relations between them are not so clear. 04:00:27 This is why I suggested pursuing the idea I called `ontologies' for Scheme. 04:03:17 -!- dlnt [~dlnt@50-51-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #scheme 04:03:56 Riastradh: pointer? 04:05:29 I think Alexey brought it up on the scheme-reports list. 04:05:36 We talked about it a little bit some months ago here. 04:06:49 Ah, okay. That is precisely what SRFI 114 is. 04:07:33 No, I don't think so... 04:08:02 See http://lists.scheme-reports.org/pipermail/scheme-reports/2013-May/003547.html 04:08:02 http://tinyurl.com/mxxfwye 04:08:31 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 04:09:08 SRFI 114 is about a single type class. 04:09:28 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 04:09:40 That's what I said, I believe. 04:09:44 The idea I explained to Alexey is that an ontology should be an object with any kind of information about a domain you want to throw into it. 04:10:33 -!- Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:10:57 Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has joined #scheme 04:11:07 Explain to me, if you please, the benefits of having general ontologies (as opposed to specific type classes) 04:11:41 That is, if I am writing a program and I realize I want to work with lattices in the program, I ought to be able to tell Scheme, `There are operations called MEET and JOIN.', and then later, for various domains I come across, throw MEET and JOIN implementations into the ontologies for those domains. 04:12:13 Quite so. 04:12:33 But what operations can be performed on all ontologies, other than reflective ones? 04:12:56 Other parts of the program should be able to come across some domain and say to themselves `Huh, I see you form a lattice. I was going to use a dumb algorithm -- but since you form a lattice, I will use a clever algorithm that works fast on lattices.' 04:14:33 This is not the same as passing the dictionary for an instance of the lattice type class to those other parts of the program -- rather, you may not know a priori what type classes that part of the program might be interested in, and you pass a whole ontology for a domain you're working with. 04:16:43 With type classes you use the static types of program terms to drive the choice of what operations get passed around to the same algorithms. With ontologies you use the tools available to you -- as you discover them at run-time -- to decide what algorithms to use. 04:17:01 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:17:57 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #scheme 04:20:22 Okay, so you need to be able to reflect on the ontology to determine what operations it provides, and hope that its names for them are the same as yours. 04:20:41 Yes, but there's no hoping involved; you use lexical scope to agree on names. 04:20:49 *jcowan* scratches his head. 04:20:51 How? 04:21:08 (define hash-function (make-ontology-operation)) 04:21:18 (if (ontology-supports? some-ontology hash-function) 04:21:20 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 04:21:25 (let ((h (hash-function some-ontology))) ...) 04:21:31 ...use an alist instead...) 04:22:34 Okay, so you use global unique objects instead of symbols. No real difference. 04:22:54 There is a real difference: you get to use lexical scope. 04:26:11 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:27:28 Yes, I see that, if you want it. 04:27:41 But it does not solve the mutual ignorance problem. 04:28:16 In practice, the lattice-supporting package has no way to ask "Do you support meet and join, and under what names?" 04:28:45 It has to define them itself (possible collision with other such packages), or it has to have the identifying objects passed to it. 04:29:58 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 04:30:59 No, you just create a module called `lattices' defining the meet and join operations, and get everyone to agree to use that. 04:31:21 This is not difficult and is totally irrelevant to the substance of the ontology concept. 04:33:17 It's no different from possible collision with other packages defining your comparator type class. 04:34:23 vraid: You there? 04:35:35 for a few 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Quit] 04:55:37 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.87.241] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:55:41 hillgreen [~hillgreen@182.48.115.163] has joined #scheme 04:57:01 -!- hillgreen [~hillgreen@182.48.115.163] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02:33 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:27 davecc [~user@50-38-14-53.lagr.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 05:19:13 hillgreen [~gxd@182.48.115.163] has joined #scheme 05:23:05 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 05:26:27 chare [322f5f0f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.95.15] has joined #scheme 05:26:33 starcraft clone project in scheme 05:26:34 who is with me 05:26:38 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:31:57 -!- chare [322f5f0f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.95.15] has left #scheme 05:33:28 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:37:59 -!- vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has quit [Ping 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