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chenjf [3d90f811@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.144.248.17] has joined #scheme 06:10:09 #join #clojure 06:13:16 lol 06:19:03 dkordic_ [~danilo@5.138.255.249] has joined #scheme 06:22:26 -!- dkordic [~danilo@5.138.167.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:27:13 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5091FB1A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:33:41 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:35:09 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:43 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:36:45 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:36:58 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 06:39:13 Ripp__ [~textual@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:39:55 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:43:53 -!- Fare 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[~ianclarks@ool-18bf6d86.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:11:57 ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.203.150.149] has joined #scheme 07:12:49 -!- ebzzry__ [~ebzzry@112.203.150.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17:31 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 07:25:23 jewel [~jewel@197.78.131.56] has joined #scheme 07:27:14 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:32:28 -!- jewel [~jewel@197.78.131.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:34:36 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c0fc-28.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:36:32 ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.203.150.149] has joined #scheme 07:37:18 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.203.150.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:49:36 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 07:56:39 wingo: what is this tweet of yours about? https://twitter.com/andywingo/status/383492555792322560 07:57:22 *ggherdov* searching archives of es-discuss... 07:57:31 ebzzry__ [~ebzzry@112.203.150.149] has joined #scheme 07:58:51 -!- ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.203.150.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:04:53 peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has joined #scheme 08:08:10 -!- fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317373.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:10:54 haha got it https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2013-September/033756.html 08:15:09 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:13 -!- vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:17:26 :) 08:18:22 peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has joined #scheme 08:28:07 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 08:28:29 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f76986f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:28:36 TheRealPygo [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f768b9a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 08:28:45 alexei 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11:44:08 b4283 [~b4283@118.150.134.111] has joined #scheme 11:45:15 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 12:06:40 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 12:07:10 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 12:19:59 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:10 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 12:34:52 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-191-204.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:44:12 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 12:45:20 SrPx [b12892fe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.40.146.254] has joined #scheme 12:46:18 What is the correct way to represent data on Scheme (ie, without Racket's structs)? 12:47:23 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-78-55-57.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:48:43 you could use srfi-9 12:50:16 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-133-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:52:23 SrPx: procedures (code = data). Eg. (define (kons a d) (lambda (k) (k a d))) (define (kar k) (k (lambda (a d) a))) (define (kdr k) (k (lambda (a d) d))) 12:52:57 SrPx: then: (kar (kons 1 (kons 2 '()))) == 1 , (kar (kdr (kons 1 (kons 2 '())))) == 2 and (kdr (kdr (kons 1 (kons 2 '())))) == () 12:53:18 SrPx: similarly for all other kind of data, including numbers (check Church Numerals). 12:53:46 ogamita: eh, sure, I understand what you mean, but I mean for practical programs? 12:54:08 Why do you want to avoid Racket's structs? The first thing you do if you don't have them, is to recreate them with a procedural abstraction, just like I did for kons! 12:54:43 ogamita: but what if I'm using another compiler (which would be interesting if I needed to make FFI without an overhead, I heard gambit does that) 12:55:18 so in this case I don't have Racket's structs 12:55:39 SrPx: well, you write modular code. You can use racket's structures, and bring along either a reference implementation in standard scheme, or at least the documentation of the struct operators you use. 12:55:56 So that you can rewrite them in standard scheme or mapping them to what is provided by the other implementation. 12:55:56 (I'm also avoiding it because I couldn't find a good Racket->JS compiler... the one existent is unmaintened now) 12:56:15 tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has joined #scheme 12:57:10 not sure if I get it.. 13:01:36 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 13:02:24 You can define a macro named struct that takes a name and a list of fields, and that expands to the functions needed. 13:03:17 If the new implementation has something similar to structures, then you can expand to that. 13:03:32 Otherwise you can use lists or vectors to store the structures. 13:04:21 Since the struct macro in racket generates a predicate to identify a given structure type, you will have to store that type in the structure objects, ie. in the vectors if you use vectors. 13:04:37 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #scheme 13:05:01 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:05:43 So (struct point (x y)) -> (begin (define (point x y) (vector 'point x y)) (define (point? o) (and (vector? o) (= 3 (length o)) (eq 'point (vector-ref o 0)))) (define (point-x p) (assert (point? p)) (vector-ref p 1)) (define (point-y p) (assert (point? p)) (vector-ref p 2)) ) 13:06:21 But alternatively, you can generate something like what I did for kons above (which is a structure of 2 fields, car and cdr). 13:06:56 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 13:07:13 SrPx: you need to know how to write macros (define-syntax in r5rs). 13:10:25 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 13:11:40 I do.. 13:12:29 my question was just what is the best way to store all data 13:12:41 I could use vectors but i guess structs are more optimized on the compiler, no? 13:13:21 defanor [~defanor@ppp91-77-170-236.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 13:13:32 (i mean, i guess racket is not using vectors for its structs like that, is it?) 13:15:05 SrPx: it is probably better to write the program, then consider what compatibility layer (if any) you need to write. 13:15:50 you do not understand my question or I don't understand your answer 13:16:17 Or both 13:16:19 -!- defanor_ [~defanor@ppp91-77-189-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:27:37 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:27:56 -!- ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:46 -!- mlamari [~quassel@72.183.103.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:50 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 13:40:42 jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:40:46 -!- jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:40:46 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 13:42:25 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44:58 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:47:20 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:48:08 SrPx: you'd be surprised what compilers do. 13:48:10 SrPx: in all probability, there's no difference between a struct and a vector. 13:48:17 and given a good compiler, there'd be no difference between them and a closure either. 13:48:58 I'm *NOT* surprised with what a compiler do. I just had to spend 4 hours optimizing an opengl mesh generating procedure, I went from 240 calls/second to 42000 calls/second by just inlining the math formulas :( 13:49:36 -!- Lagavulin [~Lagavulin@cm-84.215.103.49.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:50:19 ogamita: fun that you just said that, I was just thinking how closures look like they are implemented just like spaces on memory reserved to a function 13:50:42 SrPx: they're implemented just like object = structures. 13:50:55 uh huh 13:52:12 btw, vectors on scheme allow for any kind of object, right? So you can have a int vector and suddenly at runtime decide to put another vector in a specific position. I wonder how the memory model works for that under the hoods 13:52:47 There's no standard API to make specialized vectors in scheme indeed. But perhaps implementations provide different kinds of vectors? 13:53:31 chenjf [~chenjf@58.254.168.54] has joined #scheme 13:58:31 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 14:01:59 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:15 palach [~palach@gw.kintech.ru] has joined #scheme 14:03:12 -!- chenjf [~chenjf@58.254.168.54] has left #scheme 14:04:33 SrPx: a vector is always a vector of pointers (mostly), so you can put in anything you want 14:05:51 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-214-140.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 14:06:02 tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has joined #scheme 14:09:28 SrPx: the thing is that you can't really write a code that will be optimized on all the implementations. There are always differences that would requires changes both low and high level, depending on the implementation. 14:09:57 SrPx: what you can do on the other hand, is to write your code in a high level way, and add a layer that takes it and generates specific optimized code for each implementations you target. 14:10:05 I hope you didn't do this inlining by hand! 14:19:04 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@24.137.221.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:08 what's the difference between inlining and macro-expansion ? 14:20:38 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:01 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 14:21:02 None. 14:21:44 spacebat1 [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #scheme 14:21:48 well inlining does also apply to functions not ? 14:21:49 And that's the key to enforce inlining: replace some toplevel function call by a macro that gets the definitions of the subfunction calls and expands them automatically. 14:22:10 Yes, this is something that is done automatically on functions by compilers that implement inlining. 14:22:18 aah ok 14:22:29 ie. in CL, you just write (declaim (inline f1 f2 f3)) and that's it. 14:23:21 i still don't get the difference between declaim and proclaim 14:23:33 afaik proclaim shall be global or so 14:23:34 But if you don't have that, you can define a define-inlined-function macro that keeps around the source code, and a (with-inlined-functions ) macro that substitute the applications in subexpressions of those "inlined" function by their body. 14:23:35 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23:50 oleo: declaim is a macro that expands to problaim: no difference. 14:23:56 oh 14:24:00 heh 14:24:12 chenjf [~chenjf@58.254.168.54] has joined #scheme 14:24:15 man you seem to know much of that stuff.... 14:24:16 cool 14:24:33 Try: (macroexpand '(declaim (inline f1 f2 f3))) ; well, declaim work at compilation time so it expands to an eval-when :compile-topleve. 14:25:14 and proclaim is only runlevel ? 14:25:21 err run-time ? 14:25:46 -!- chenjf [~chenjf@58.254.168.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:08 chenjf [~chenjf@58.254.168.54] has joined #scheme 14:26:38 Yes, proclaim is a function so it's effects are only when it's called, usually at run-time. 14:26:40 -!- chenjf [~chenjf@58.254.168.54] has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:45 its 14:26:54 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:12 ok 14:28:04 meekrabr6r [~meekrabr6@cpe-065-190-035-046.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:53:30 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:00:28 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 15:00:41 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:05:36 civodul [~user@193.50.110.127] has joined #scheme 15:09:04 -!- Fare 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[Quit: Leaving.] 17:33:50 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:42:15 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:42:23 yati [~yati@223.239.201.31] has joined #scheme 17:43:56 Hi. I'm starting out with SICP and have installed MIT Scheme. The REPL shell is not really very good (it does not even have history, and for errors, I have to type (restart 1) every time). Is there something better I can use? 17:45:03 j3pl [~Adium@38.102.133.106] has joined #scheme 17:45:19 You will probably be happier using Edwin rather than the console REPL. 17:45:42 (You can type C-g, by the way, or C-c C-u, instead of typing `(restart 1)'.) 17:46:28 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:07 Riastradh, thanks. Also, some people said I should try DrScheme, which I think has now evolved to become Racket, if I'm not wrong. 17:51:06 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-214-140.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 17:52:56 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 17:53:02 turbofail [~user@107-215-216-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:54:23 Ripp__ [~textual@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:56:19 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 17:56:39 -!- j3pl [~Adium@38.102.133.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:57:54 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.134.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:42 j3pl [~Adium@38.102.133.106] has joined #scheme 18:03:48 -!- yati [~yati@223.239.201.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:11 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-5-76.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:59 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:18 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:18:40 -!- youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:21:29 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:24:52 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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