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The `with-...' group of procedures/macros, usually implemented with `dynamic-wind' or so, are what solve that problem in Lisps in general, right ? 11:19:47 in CL, the answer is unwind-protect 11:20:08 in scheme, continuations mess with the notion of "will never happen again" 11:20:29 `unwind-protect' is roughly a synonym to `dynamic-wind' though, not ? 11:20:44 Ah no, it doesn't have re-entry forms. 11:23:47 -!- mlamari_ [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:03 mlamari [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:38:14 kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 11:43:45 -!- eff__ [~quassel@123.122.69.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:44:28 ASau` [~user@p4FF97D54.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:46:05 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 11:47:10 edw_ [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 11:47:12 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:47:29 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF971EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:47:41 taylanub: rather dynamic-extend declaration for local variables. 11:48:21 I wonder if it would be useful for a Scheme implementation to offer a `with' syntax that's like `let' but binds objects whose lifetime is the dynamic extent of the `with' form, setting the variables to some "null" value and/or making it illegal to reference them at all without first putting another object into them, after the object they hold has its lifetime pass. 11:48:22 taylanub: unwind-protect helps in doing clean up, but usually it's unrelated to dynamically allocated objects. 11:48:43 taylanub: continuations 11:48:59 taylanub: Isn't that fluid-let ? 11:49:09 taylanub: if you can have the compiler prove that the data is not leaked? (Well, cl:dynamic-extend declaration doesn't require a compiler proof, it's a user guarantee). 11:50:50 taylanub: http://mumble.net/~campbell/blag.txt grep for unwind-protect 11:51:15 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:06:30 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:11:51 -!- defanor [~d@ppp91-77-166-113.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:12:15 vraid_ [~vraid@host-95-195-155-235.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 12:13:39 -!- vraid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:13:41 -!- vraid_ is now known as vraid 12:17:45 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:20:01 samth [~samth@129-79-241-204.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 12:22:55 CL's `dynamic-extent' seems to be what I was trying to imagine. (Obviously, it needs to act on *objects* and not variables, so something like `fluid-let' doesn't cut it.) 12:23:38 ogamita: What happens when the user violates the guarantee ? 12:24:59 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 12:25:43 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Client Quit] 12:25:47 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 12:34:20 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 12:44:29 eff_ [~quassel@123.122.69.65] has joined #scheme 12:48:25 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:24 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:51:59 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:52:55 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:53:35 pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 12:54:47 davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has joined #scheme 12:56:17 -!- oleo_ [5098faa7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.152.250.167] has quit [] 12:59:30 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:00:00 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 13:00:44 teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has joined #scheme 13:08:24 davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has joined #scheme 13:10:53 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #scheme 13:15:46 taylanub: some implementations ignore the declaration and allocate on the heap anyway. Some implementation may break just like in C return &my_auto_var; notably with (optimize (safety 0)). 13:17:10 taylanub: notice that neither in ANSI CL or in ANSI C, there's any strong prescriptions about run-time check or static analysis. You could have a C implementation that does the same run-time (type) checks as a CL implementation, or a CL implementation as unsafe as a usual C implementation. 13:17:41 (but people often coalesce language and implementation). 13:19:32 vraid_ [~vraid@host-95-195-132-213.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 13:20:00 -!- vraid [~vraid@host-95-195-155-235.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:20:04 -!- vraid_ is now known as vraid 13:24:24 tiksa [~tiksa@93-87-176-239.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #scheme 13:25:07 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@93-87-176-239.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has left #scheme 13:26:09 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:31:54 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:32:34 I see, thanks. I wonder if it could be made to signal an error instead of crashing. Perhaps that's difficult without undermining other optimization possibilities. 13:35:27 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 13:38:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 13:45:48 zordon [~zordon@djy178.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 13:47:18 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.152.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:48:28 -!- zordon [~zordon@djy178.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:26 yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has joined #scheme 13:50:37 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:40 yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has joined #scheme 13:56:13 b4283 [~b4283@118.150.139.66] has joined #scheme 13:56:51 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 13:56:55 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 13:58:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:08:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 14:08:23 Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 14:22:04 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:24:29 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24:39 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:25:47 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 14:26:21 ijp: Took me some time to grok but I think I understand. So `unwind-protect' is actually orthogonal to `dynamic-wind', and only calls its unwind procedure when it can prove that the dynamic extent won't be entered anymore (by marking wind points (stack frames?) "dirty" if any continuation of them is reified, and/or calling its unwind procedure in the "finalizer" of a dummy object that the garbage collector will reclaim once it can't be 14:26:21 reached from any continuation anymore). (I hope I didn't confuse myself and spew nonsense there.) 14:27:50 Of course that still doesn't offer deterministic reclamation of resources, so all that is yet orthogonal to `rewind-protect' which simply forbids re-entry of the dynamic extent. 14:29:40 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:09 zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.150] has joined #scheme 14:31:13 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 14:31:44 (Well actually `dynamic-wind' itself *does* behave deterministically if I'm not mistaken, it's just that the offering of the re-entry procedure implies an expectation that the entry/exit operations are reversible.) 14:33:38 rewind-protect does offer deterministic reclamation of resources, it gets that by forbidding reentry 14:33:39 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:34:41 Yes, and so does `dynamic-wind', but one will have to omit the re-entry action, making the entry/exit actions asymmetric, which is un-nice. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) 14:35:26 dynamic wind without allowing reentry _is_ rewind protect 14:35:35 Indeed :) 14:36:30 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:36:31 And now I also realize that all of that is *still* orthogonal to a mechanic which can mark arbitrary objects as "invalid" akin to a file descriptor being closed or a database connection disconnected. 14:37:21 Slowly, everything is getting clearer. :P 14:37:30 agumonkey [~agu@253.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 14:37:36 how orthogonal? 14:38:00 or rather, what do you mean by wanting to mark an arbitrary object as invalid 14:38:29 (let ((c (cons x y))) (deallocate c) (car c)) => error: c deallocated 14:38:54 that's just absurd 14:38:57 Then a `rewind-protect+deallocate' could be implemented that stack-allocates objects. 14:39:13 anybody having issues with ido-ubiquitous 2.0 ? emacs complains about ido-ubiquitous-default-command-overrides being nil, can't figure out the problem 14:39:25 agumonkey: This is #scheme :) 14:39:43 agumonkey: not #emacs, but IIRC technomancy doesn't suggest people use ido-ubiquitous anymore 14:41:37 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:38 ijp: Perhaps the solo `deallocate' is unfeasible, but if the `rewind-protect+deallocate' is feasible to implement directly it would be neat. 14:41:47 taylanub: Sounds like you want region type systems. 14:42:39 ijp: heh, so used to see you on #emacs I thought ... 14:42:53 You could probably hack something together in Racket with weak references, but that sounds like a bad idea. 14:43:30 vraid_ [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:43:37 stamourv: Any resources on that topic ? Google yields some results but I'm not sure which are relevant. ("region type system") 14:43:44 -!- vraid [~vraid@host-95-195-132-213.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:43:47 -!- vraid_ is now known as vraid 14:43:52 taylanub: (define-record-type deallocated-object) (define the-deallocated-object (make-deallocated-object)) (define-syntax-rule (deallocate c) (set! c the-deallocated-object)) 14:44:12 taylanub: ISTR MLKit maybe having something like that? 14:44:22 *stamourv* doesn't know much about regions. 14:44:28 asumu: ^ 14:45:33 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 14:45:54 ijp: Heh, I suppose that could just be "good enough". 14:46:26 ijp: No wait, you want to replace an *object* with this deallocated object, not change a reference to it. 14:46:27 well, in any case deallocate should be a special form 14:47:12 I mean, (let* ((c (cons..)) (k c)) (deallocate c) (car k)) => error: deallocated 14:47:20 vishesh [~vishesh@103.26.216.219] has joined #scheme 14:47:55 we allow it for so many other pieces of state, but for memory I thought we were past this spooky-action-at-a-distance 14:48:04 This is a bit mind-bending when one is accustomed to the "nothing is ever deallocated" mentality. 14:48:23 *taylanub* still has to implement a Scheme! 14:50:32 ijp: The idea is that it could allow optimization of some memory-usage hotspots without dropping down to C. I suppose this is mainly interesting for a Scheme with conservative garbage collection; precise collection means deterministic deallocation, right ? 14:51:19 ... 14:51:27 No wait, precision doesn't mean no tracing, duh. 14:52:15 I was thinking of reference counting, but that has its own array of problems of course. 14:53:01 stamourv, taylanub : best resource on region type systems is probably Advanced Types and Programming Languages. 14:53:21 You could also try reading the Tofte and Talpin paper on regions. 14:53:33 Oleg also has a page on them: http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/regions.html 14:53:37 (what doesn't Oleg have a page on?) 14:53:50 PHP (I hope) 14:54:27 For practical use of regions, see the Cyclone manual and others: http://cyclone.thelanguage.org/wiki/Introduction%20to%20Regions/ 14:54:52 phew, when I saw the "other programming languages" page I was worried for a moment 14:54:56 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 14:55:28 he has PL/I text editor there though 15:00:50 *taylanub* puts "try to implement `rewind-protect+deallocate'" on the indefinite-future TODO 15:01:26 -!- Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:03:31 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 15:08:22 *stamourv* shudders at the mention of PL/I. 15:08:26 Bad memories. 15:14:46 just point out on the doll where it touched you 15:16:15 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #scheme 15:21:07 jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@li62-33.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 15:22:27 bowmanb [~bowmanb@38.98.105.130] has joined #scheme 15:25:14 -!- bowmanb [~bowmanb@38.98.105.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:19 bowmanb [~bowmanb@38.98.105.130] has joined #scheme 15:26:35 stamourv: sounds a funnier language than C, thought. 15:28:01 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:28:21 ogamita: Harder to shoot yourself in the foot, but that's about it. 15:28:23 *stamourv* disappears. 15:28:46 -!- palach [~palach@gw.kintech.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:59 Foot guns! 15:33:20 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:56 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af437e8.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 15:41:57 pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:42 pnkfelix` [~user@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:49:10 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 15:56:28 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:20:28 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 16:22:07 -!- agumonkey [~agu@253.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:25:04 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 16:28:02 -!- teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:28:21 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:31:52 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:33:21 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:34:39 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:57 -!- bowmanb [~bowmanb@38.98.105.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:59 agumonkey [~agu@112.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 16:43:06 -!- ogamita [~t@77.104.4.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:46:40 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:46:49 -!- agumonkey [~agu@112.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:52:54 -!- Guest53212 is now known as xenophon 16:54:35 bowmanb [~bowmanb@38.98.105.130] has joined #scheme 16:58:20 jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:23 -!- jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:23 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 17:07:23 -!- bowmanb [~bowmanb@38.98.105.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:44 Ripp__ [~textual@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:13:26 Isnt cons for concatenate, why does doing "(cons (car lst) '())" wrap parenthesis around the first element of my list then ? 17:14:46 vraid: any idea ? :) ^ 17:15:06 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@103.26.216.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:16:23 shivani: cons returns a list 17:16:53 (a . nil) 17:17:25 ((car lst) . ()) 17:17:52 shivani: all lists end with an empty list, which is usually omitted 17:17:53 if you have defined nil as () i.e. 17:18:15 so what is left is a list of (car lst), and not the element on its own 17:18:49 cons doesnt mean appending then ? 17:18:51 vraid: ? 17:18:58 no 17:19:28 it's not appending, neither concatenating.... 17:19:44 look at your head-tail box drawings.... 17:20:05 oleo : okay looking 17:20:14 well it's sort of appending 17:20:54 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:58 (cons a ls) appends ls to (list a) 17:22:16 if a is a list..... 17:22:28 no 17:22:36 it appends ls to a list of a 17:24:15 -> (a . nil) -> (a . (ls . nil)) ? 17:24:16 (cons 1 (list 2 3)) -> '(1 2 3) 17:24:17 (cons (list 1) (list 2 3)) -> '((1) 2 3) 17:24:17 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 17:24:35 (1 . (2 . 3)) ? 17:24:47 erm, (1 . (2 . (3 . nil))) 17:25:05 what's the dot syntax? 17:25:27 cons! 17:25:47 ah. if the second argument is not a list 17:25:57 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5741111/help-explaining-how-cons-in-scheme-work 17:25:58 http://tinyurl.com/k6fm3ca 17:26:01 maybe this helps I guess 17:26:12 But cons is not intuitive to me 17:26:23 its weird how it behaves so differently. 17:26:25 (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3))) 17:26:34 nil is mostly ommitted for brevity.... 17:28:50 (cons 3) is short for (cons 3 nil) 17:28:51 oleo : whydid you call it sort of appending and not appending ? 17:28:57 mhm.. 17:29:04 shivani: cons creates a pair 17:29:30 a list is a pair where the second element is either a pair or nil 17:29:54 vraid: Ah makes more sense, and so when I have a longer list , its just nested pairs? 17:29:58 which means that all finite lists end in nil, and it is omitted when displaying a list 17:30:07 ah oka 17:30:20 that' what i meant, it's not flat append, it's nested..... 17:30:21 I get it .. ! 17:30:25 yes! 17:30:30 much much more clear now 17:30:30 vraid: shivani: cons doesn't return a list, it returns a pair (aka cons cell). 17:30:32 :D 17:30:49 taylanub: yes, got that 17:30:49 taylanub: ye, i corrected myself 17:31:06 and so while it seems like wrapping , its only returning a pair with (list.nil) 17:31:12 wherein the nil is omitted in writing 17:31:22 and so it appears to me that the car of my list is wrapped 17:31:25 right :D 17:31:37 whatever conclusions you draw...... 17:32:04 do some exercises and it will be clear...... 17:32:31 shivani: a pair of the first element of lst, not of the whole list 17:32:33 oleo: yeah I am actually doing some exercises from eopl book right now 17:32:40 ok 17:32:46 vraid: yes, correct :) 17:33:21 And saying that (cons a ls) appends a to ls is also a misleading way to say what actually happens: it returns a pair whose first element ("car") is a, and its second element ("cdr") ls. 17:34:07 yes and it's a shortcoming not to see that the cdr itself can be another pair.... 17:34:27 taylanub: i didn't say that 17:34:48 only when the last cdr is nil, then it's a proper list 17:35:27 (1 . nil) is (1 . 2) is not 17:35:36 the first is a list, the last is a cons pair we say just.... 17:35:42 vraid: Ah, I see. (cons a ls) appends ls to (list a) I suppose one can view it like that, although I'd discourage ignoring the workings of cons cells themselves. 17:35:57 Unless the context is a list API ... 17:36:28 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.139.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:06 vishesh [~vishesh@103.26.216.160] has joined #scheme 17:40:13 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 17:40:51 bowmanb [~bowmanb@38.98.105.130] has joined #scheme 17:41:27 now you should ask, ok i got appending, but how does prepending work then or putting it in the middle of my list...... 17:41:35 eheh 17:42:05 oleo: if thats for me , i'd love to ask that too :P 17:42:19 yeh, go figure... 17:42:53 *shivani* hides behind her book :D 17:49:07 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298AF1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:51:41 -!- tenq|away [~tenq@199.19.116.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:54:40 jlongster [~user@ip-64-134-44-136.public.wayport.net] has joined #scheme 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#scheme 21:10:29 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@65-130-17-108.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:11:01 -!- igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@65-130-25-95.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:11:02 -!- igotnole_ is now known as igotnolegs- 21:14:33 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:14 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.2.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:00 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:01 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:45:11 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 21:47:41 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 21:53:38 -!- edw_ [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:55:35 davexunit [~user@c-71-232-35-199.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:06:31 tenq|away [~tenq@199.19.116.207] has joined #scheme 22:06:34 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 22:10:07 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:43 -!- jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:10:53 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:23 jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:00 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 22:18:47 the ` (backquote) is basically like a normal quote for lists except that you can eval some elements with commas in front right? 22:18:57 does that have any uses besides for macros? 22:20:17 it is often used in macros, but can be used anywhere you want to construct lists 22:20:25 for example, I use it to generate HTML or XML via SXML 22:20:27 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:20:58 i see ..thanks 22:21:54 ecraven: so in your html template you have stuff like

,text

? 22:22:15 where the comma says to eval something to get content? 22:23:59 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:31 theseb: I have something like (sxml->html `(html (head (title "test page")) (body (div (@ (style "color: red;")) (p "Some red text"))))) 22:25:58 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:26:27 ecraven: wait...the whole PURPOSE of backquote is the allow comma stuff..i don't see any comma magic in your code 22:26:36 which translates to the obvious HTML tags. I can edit it well in Emacs, using paredit (as it is all s-expressions), it is easy to transform (as it is all lists) 22:26:56 ecraven: why not just use regular quote ' ? 22:27:05 theseb: imagine (p "Hello" ,username ", how are you?") instead of the (p "Some red text") 22:27:08 or really anything 22:27:26 ok 22:27:43 for example, you could easily write a function LINK-TO that returned `(a (@ (href ..)) ...), making linking much nicer 22:28:06 then use `(p "Look " ,(link-to ....) " for more details") 22:28:54 also, unquote does not really eval anything (regarding your original question) 22:29:09 rather, backquote is macro-expanded to code that quotes everything except the unquoted parts 22:29:27 try to look at the macro-expanded code that is generated for backquote in your Scheme implementaton 22:30:04 for example, `(cons 1 ,a) expands to (list 'cons 1 a) here 22:30:13 so no magic :) 22:31:04 1 isn't quoted too? 22:31:07 but you don't have to use it, if you don't think it's useful outside macros, don't use it outside macros yourself :) 22:31:16 numeric literals are self-evaluating, they don't need quoting 22:31:22 same as strings 22:31:32 read r9rs for which data is self-evaluating 22:31:40 ecraven: yes but backquote still brainlessly quote them anyways right? 22:31:43 s/9/7/ 22:31:54 theseb: why should it be brainless? 22:32:28 ecraven: what i mean is....backquote macro expands everything to quoted code so it will quote the 1 too 22:32:47 ecraven: unless the macro expansion does type checks to know what it doesn't have to quote? 22:32:50 why would it do that? why couldn't it just not quote things that don't need quoting? 22:33:08 (also, (quote 7) evaluates to 7, so there's no difference here) 22:33:12 ecraven: sure 22:33:26 ecraven: but your way would mean the macroexpander was more intelligent that's all 22:33:37 i.e. need more code for such smarts 22:33:43 theseb: you'd have to inspect your implementation for what it does exactly 22:34:20 k 22:34:21 thanks again 22:34:27 no problem, hope it helped 22:34:29 good night! 22:40:44 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:46:42 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:49:32 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:38 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:41 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:08 -!- jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:01:35 jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:54 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 23:08:28 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:08 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:09:35 -!- samth [~samth@129-79-241-204.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:02 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:26:56 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #scheme 23:29:22 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #scheme 23:41:54 sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-71-191-94-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:41:54 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-71-191-94-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:41:54 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme