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[kryptiskt@213.101.209.229] has joined #scheme 11:38:01 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@173-10-14-122-BusName-stockton.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:41:35 -!- tacey [~tacey@220.231.27.150] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:45:55 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD60FB6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:50:40 tcsc [~tcsc@c-71-192-176-137.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:29:53 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 12:30:56 -!- kryptiskt [kryptiskt@213.101.209.229] has quit [] 12:31:12 kryptiskt [kryptiskt@213.101.209.229] has joined #scheme 12:35:21 About minimal special forms: How is (begin ....) different than ((lambda () ....)) ? 12:36:50 dsmith: do you really need the extra pair of parenthesis for the lambda since you don't really supply any value to it from outside? 12:37:37 I don't know if there is a difference though. 12:37:49 *add^_* wouldn't think so, but doesn't know. 12:38:30 add^_, You do need to evaluate the lambda in function call context 12:38:53 Hm 12:39:44 I'd like to have an example, if that's not too much to ask for. 12:40:09 So. (define foo (lambda () 3)) 12:40:19 foo and (foo) are different things 12:41:37 Yes? 12:41:45 Yes 12:41:45 Ah 12:41:47 Right 12:41:54 That's what you meant. 12:41:59 Ok :-) 12:42:38 I mean, unless there is something I'm missing ..... 12:43:02 Nope 12:43:07 is about evaluation not about being function or not 12:43:47 When doing (lambda () 'bah) it evaluates to being a process, when doing ((lambda () 'bah)) it evaluates to bah. 12:44:15 Silly me 12:45:07 *add^_* should have known that, since he used to fiddle around alot with that in CL and also when messing with the y-combinator.. 12:45:21 +in Scheme 12:45:30 carleastlund: http://norvig.com/lispy.html <-- Norvig claims here that quote, if, set!, define, begin and lambda are enough to implement lisp 12:45:59 yes, is true, and? 12:46:05 Hum, I don't really know the difference dsmith. 12:46:15 rszeno: read dsmith's question 12:46:16 minimal and usable are different think 12:46:23 I was thinking that begin doesn't need to be in that list 12:47:01 And if it does, I wanted to know why 12:48:00 dsmith: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-7.4/doc-html/scheme_3.html#SEC39 12:48:01 http://tinyurl.com/kpufrro 12:48:06 thanks rudybot 12:48:32 *add^_* likes a helpful bot 12:49:01 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 12:49:18 Actually, that doesn't answer much.. 12:49:20 Hmmm 12:49:38 Maybe the lambda doesn't necessarily do everything in a specific order? 12:49:48 *add^_* is just thinking out loud 12:50:20 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1 12:50:52 Ahh. That norvig link has lambda only evaluating one expression 12:51:22 are three types, primitive, combinations and abstractions, lambda can deal with primitive, begin execute a sequence of forms 12:51:31 dsmith: really? :-/ 12:53:20 dsmith: just looked, yeah. 12:53:27 rszeno: eeeh 12:54:40 "A special form (also known as a syntax in the Scheme Reports) is an expression that's not evaluated according to the default rule for function application. (The default rule, just to be explicit, is to eval all of the subexpressions, and then apply the result of the first one to the list of the results of the others.)" 12:55:11 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:45 rszeno: and? 12:56:29 BEGIN can be reduced to LAMBDA, so you don't need it as a primitive 12:56:41 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 12:57:50 Thank you ecraven :-) 12:57:55 special form occure few time when norvig link was posted, is important to understand the difference between normal and special forms, how are evaluated 12:59:55 also DEFINE isn't strictly necessary either, it's just a convenient macro 13:01:08 you can build a minimal scheme on a more minimalistic lisp in fact 13:01:09 and keep in mind that implementing this handful of special forms only gives you *syntactic* completeness, you *still* need to think about how to implement DYNAMIC-WIND, CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION, multiple return values, etc. that's probably harder than those few special forms 13:01:52 dealing with types too 13:04:21 simple pure lambda is not enough to model a useful language language even if is minimalist 13:08:32 dsmith, i recommand you to write a toy interpreter and play with it. Is the best way to understand what is inside if this is important for you., :) 13:08:57 LOL 13:09:15 Ehm 13:09:35 *add^_* tries to hold back his laughter 13:10:54 rszeno, I was just confirming what I thought I knew. 13:11:12 add^_, why laugh? 13:11:40 rszeno: I just thought it was funny. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings.. 13:11:43 Sorry 13:11:51 mine, not, :) 13:12:08 no need to be sorry, i was just curios 13:12:31 i think anybody can do anything if is motivated 13:13:12 only time is the limit, :) 13:14:00 rszeno, Yes indeed 13:14:47 he 13:14:48 hehj 13:14:50 argh 13:14:53 -j 13:18:38 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 13:18:48 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19:26 I finally bought the "Lambda Calculus: It's syntax and semantics" book by Henk Barendregt. :-D 13:22:19 add^_: hehe, how goes the reading? 13:22:22 I have to wait for it to arrive though :-/ 13:22:55 ecraven: I just bought it, haven't arrived yet :-( 13:22:59 is not free? 13:23:04 Nope 13:23:11 large yellow book, right? 13:23:16 Yes 13:23:23 Well, yellow-redish 13:24:58 jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:25:01 -!- jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:25:02 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 13:25:48 http://www.amazon.com/The-Lambda-Calculus-Syntax-Semantics/dp/184890066X/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1 13:25:48 http://tinyurl.com/prgmhkh 13:26:20 rudybot: :-) 13:26:20 add^_: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 13:26:29 heh 13:39:03 klez [~klez@93.37.209.211] has joined #scheme 13:39:12 hi all 13:39:29 hi 13:39:50 may I pose a question? a programming question 13:40:14 ask don't ask for permision to ask, is a irc rule 13:40:37 sorry 13:40:39 anyway 13:40:48 no problem, :) 13:42:02 i have a list of lists, while cycling on a row I may need to modify elements of the previous row. How would you go about referencing them when using, for example, for-each? 13:43:10 don't use FOR-EACH in that case :) 13:44:49 so how would you iterate on it? is there something like for in c? 13:45:02 more exactly aree two ways to see this problem, iterative and recursive 13:45:11 s/aree/are/ 13:45:58 rszeno: right :P 13:46:21 you can collect what you need from previous row and use on the next row 13:46:42 uhm 13:46:46 seems right... 13:47:30 well, thanks, I'll give it a try 13:47:44 yes but i don't know how easy will be to do it, :) 13:48:15 klez: either use a LET binding around the FOR-EACH that you mutate with SET! for each row, or (imho better) use a named LET to loop, and just keep a reference for the last row 13:48:44 as in (let loop ((last #f) (current ...)) ... (loop current (next-row))) 13:55:12 ecraven: tnx, I'll also try that 14:02:19 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:40 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:50 have to go, bye and thanks again ecraven and rszeno 14:08:04 -!- klez [~klez@93.37.209.211] has left #scheme 14:08:06 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:11:52 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 14:22:59 yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has joined #scheme 14:25:35 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-28-76.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:29:05 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:35 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:56:56 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@c-71-192-176-137.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bye!] 14:57:06 tcsc [~tcsc@c-71-192-176-137.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:00:49 Some protocols, for example TCP and UDP, define layouts for binary data down to the bits; can such data be worked with via any standard Scheme library, e.g. bytevectors ? 15:05:13 (Actually, UDP doesn't seem to do that, but anyway.) 15:05:38 I'm not sure what your question is 15:06:20 If you have a way of obtaining binary data, representing binary data, and operating on binary data, then of course you can do that 15:06:24 ijp: Let's ask it this way: does bytevector-u8-ref make guarantees on the bit-level endianness ? 15:08:11 Or to give an example, TCP says bit number 103 is the NS flag, 104 is the CWR flag, etc., how can I get the values of these via bytevectors (or any other facility) ? 15:08:31 (Given that I have a TCP packet in a bytevector, for example.) 15:08:35 endianness is about ordering bytes, so is not relevant for u8s 15:09:45 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-216-178.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:10:49 taylanub: for example, you could represent packets as lists of booleans: (#f #t #f ) Then TCP/IP or UDP/IP processing is reduced to lisp processing. 15:13:26 pjb: Well, does R6RS, R7RS-small, or any SRFI, have a facility of turning an input bytestream into such a bool vector ? 15:13:58 I wouldn't have thought so, because vectors have known-constant length, whereas streams do not 15:14:33 That's not what I meant, just eat up n bytes from the stream. 15:14:44 bytes, sure. bits, no 15:15:02 for that, you need to do a little manipulation 15:16:07 Re. endianness, AFAIK some architectures can have weird bit-level endianness differences, so say the 4-bit pattern 0100 could mean either the number 2 or the number 4 ? 15:16:35 (Otherwise you'd just do arithmetic on the byte values, sure ...) 15:17:09 bit operations are specified to operate on the 2s complement version of the number 15:17:29 says so right at the very top of "11.1 Bitwise Operations" 15:18:51 so if you have an integer 23 it is the same as #b00010111 15:20:49 I see, that should work then. 15:24:26 erlang has some neat bit comprehensions, for these sorts of tasks 15:29:58 Most architectures don't have bit-level addressing... 15:36:51 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:32 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:40:07 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 15:49:03 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-216-178.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 15:52:38 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 15:52:54 -!- Anderson [~user@c-67-190-238-152.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:19 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:21 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 16:04:25 arubin 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[~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:05 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:25 -!- Denommus [~Denommus@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:16:34 -!- jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:19:08 pumpkin360 [~main@aeoi212.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 23:20:02 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 23:20:40 what is the difference between a "variable" and a "symbol"?...seems lispers are very careful to use those 2 words carefully in different cases 23:21:20 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 23:23:30 Consider a function that returns lambdas. Suppose you call it three times.. each lambda has its own set of variables, though they use the same symbols 23:24:30 hmmm 23:24:35 a variable is a named value, a symbol is a type of value 23:24:55 LeoNerd: so you have describing a function that returns functions 23:24:59 in the lexical syntax of scheme, variables are represented by symbols 23:25:55 man...lispers are soo good with these words 23:26:09 it takes me a min or 2 to process this 23:27:44 LeoNerd: if a program had 3 functions....f(x), g(x) and h(x) (using algebraic notation)...i'd probably say all those x variables are different yes but they use same symbol 23:28:33 Hmm... yes, perhaps 23:28:33 wow...this is subtle 23:28:42 very fine distinctions 23:29:16 i know algebra well and never really analyzed my use of language that carefully 23:32:23 can openMPI be used as a database? 23:32:32 instead of say postgresql? 23:32:38 for website building? 23:34:15 -!- jvc [~jvc@111.161.77.239] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:45 theseb: In the context of a specific implementation, these terms can become more concrete, I found that to help in understanding, too. 23:35:17 azathoth99: fuck off gavino 23:35:25 hey be nice 23:35:35 I dont wana have to put the smak down on yu az 23:35:47 I was nice 3 years ago, times are different 23:35:49 LOL, do we not have OPs in this channel ? 23:39:18 times are different how? 23:39:28 -!- agumonkey [~agu@117.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:44:00 jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:50:21 theseb: x is fresh in all 3 functions 23:54:24 local symbol 23:54:27 not global