00:00:18 take guile. at the module level, there is a hashtable, if you like 00:00:57 In the Chicken compiler, for example, variables are just locations on the C stack, and there is a link from inner to outer scopes that is just a C pointer. The names of local variables are not kept around at run time, and there is no searching. 00:00:58 for local variables, we can get rid of some of them altogether, some are stack allocated 00:01:26 lexical closures are in essence, a vector of values (for immutables) and boxes (for mutables) 00:01:38 an immutable vector* 00:03:07 -!- dsp [~dsp@amnezia.2f30.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:03:49 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:03:57 dsp [~dsp@171-196.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 00:07:40 That's one implementation but certainly not the only one. A closure can be a linked list of vectors rather than a single flat vector, and Rabbit carefully kept track of which variables were mutable rather than allocating boxes on the heap. 00:08:24 main: Part of the point of Scheme compiling is that one size does not fit all. Because Scheme compilers only have a few simple constructs to deal with, they can afford to make a very thorough analysis of them to figure out the best thing to do in each case. 00:12:56
ok, will have more questions when I will try to make my C scheme interpreter small and efficient enough to submit scheme do with this interpreter on programming contests/ 00:13:26 I really wish you wouldn't add to the already gigantic mound of scheme interpreters 00:13:29
and generally algorithmic tasks 00:13:39 think of poor jcowan, and the schemes he has to test on 00:14:02
but it is a matter of learning. 00:14:27 Quite so. At this point, adding new interpreters is fairly cost-free for me, as long as they aren't written in something that takes a year to install. 00:14:28
and still not sure if any scheme would do everything I want. 00:14:40 The worst case right now is Guile, which takes half a day to build on my system. 00:14:49 most of which is two files 00:15:04
why do You have to test things on all schemes ? 00:15:05 stupid boot-9 and stupid psyntax 00:15:12 main: he doesn't, that can't be done 00:15:24
*many/most 00:15:44 as time progresses, the number of scheme implementations will approach infinite 00:16:39
is it possible to achieve decent performance with a interpreter with short code? (500-700 lines) 00:16:48
not implementing 00:16:59
all those worthless error checking 00:17:39
by decent performance I mean faster than python 00:17:45
but not much. 00:18:00 jcowan: with all due respect, many of these functions seem suspect to me 00:18:24 No need for too damn much respect, I am your brother Joseph 00:18:28 Tell me what you don't like. 00:18:45 contrary to my usual functional approach, I wouldn't really expect that from a module explicitly calling itself "hash tables" 00:19:28 You mean the functional update procedures? 00:19:36 well yes 00:20:03
ok. thanks for all the help. gtg. see You, tommorow or some other day (pumpkin360) 00:20:05 hash-table-map->list seems ssupect if you already have folds and a way to convert to an alist 00:20:34 -!- main [~main@aagj174.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:22:01 I am no great fan of the success/failure continuation approach 00:22:37 I'd get rid of the "hash tables as functions" section 00:24:15 all in all, it looks like you've taken every possible function you've ever seen someone use on a hashtable and added it 00:24:19 Oh, but they're cool: they let you replace a procedure in map or whatever with a hash table. In effect, hash tables become an implementation of finite functions. 00:24:42 Pretty much yes: this is supposed to be the large language, after all. And I don't think it's a hodge-podge, because I have rounded them out quite a bit. 00:25:08 I should probably specify that the success and failure continuations are tail called. 00:25:24 (if the function is tail called) 00:25:45 Tail called from the function, that is, as for example eval tail-calls its first argument. 00:26:01 This is guaranteed by RnRS 00:26:22 some of these mass mutators seem of limited utility 00:27:33 I'm also not perfectly convinced of the optional hash argument 00:27:39 (to make-hash-table) 00:28:43 Well, that is issue 2: if you are going to allow arbitrary equiv predicates, you have to allow arbitrary hash functions too. Making it mandatory isn't a win, because of the possibility of self-rehashing eq? hash tables. 00:29:00 That's a bad bit in SRFI 69, that you have access to the implementation's hash-by-identity. 00:29:11 what did the "small" report say about function equality? 00:29:50 because if that's unspecified, then this sounds like an incompatibility 00:29:54 Right now it's R6RS, but it will almost certainly revert to R5RS before it's finalized. The WG has unanimously said so, and I doubt if the Steering Committee will disallow the change. 00:30:22 In any case, no R6RS known to me actually fails when top-level functions (with empty closures) are involved. 00:30:42 That's one of the reasons for the appeal of issue 1, however. 00:30:48 Just one thing to deal with. 00:31:10 a standards should not implicitly require a specific kind of incompatibility in one part, in another 00:31:42 you know me. I want things to be specified and consistent. 00:32:05 not that the wgs seem content to oblige me 00:33:11 and about hash-tables as sets: 00:33:15 first, you are missing intersection 00:33:50 second, how do you handle merging two hash table functions that use separate notions of equality? 00:34:09 THat's an error. 00:34:49 You're right about not having intersection, that's an oversight. 00:34:57 nasal demons error, or a specific kind of error? 00:35:10 who am I kidding, the former 00:35:54 jcowan: I presume you've seen this years april rfc 6919? 00:36:01 april fool* 00:37:55 No, I hadn't, thanks. 00:38:15 I found it a very depressing document 00:38:28 "Is an error" always means nasal demons error. Otherwise it's "an error is signaled" or "an error that satisfies is signaled". 00:38:50 Without reflection, you can't guarantee to throw an error. 00:38:57 s/to throw an error/to detect the situation 00:40:02 in my functional sets/maps I handled this by defaulting to the procedures of the first one. 00:40:17 I wasn't particularly happy with it, but I wasn't happy with any of the solutions. 00:41:16 Well, "is an error" allows the implementation to resolve it however it prefers. 00:41:39 I am all too painfully aware of what it means 00:42:02 Okay, updated doc to add intersection 00:42:06 I draw the line at xor, however 00:42:21 I had no intention of suggesting it 00:42:30 What does "a standards should not implicitly require a specific kind of incompatibility in one part, in another" mean, though? 00:42:31 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:42:55 My sets proposal (soon to be a SRFI) has set-xor but not bag-xor 00:42:55 jcowan: I mean, you should not require functions to be equal in the hash tables module, if they are not expected to be equal any where else 00:43:23 only I tried to generalise it, and ended up wiht some terrible verbiage 00:45:16 hash-table-unfold seems a bit much 00:45:38 At worst I would add make-eq and make-eqv procedures a la R6RS 00:45:41 and it always requires a hash, which is inconsistent your earlier stance on not requiring it to allow rehashing for eq 00:45:58 Good point, I'll reorder the args 00:47:34 procedures like hash-table-unfold and hash-table-map and hash-table-map! should probably mention that it is not defined what happens if you generate an equal? key multiple types 00:47:36 Done. 00:48:59 and that'll have to do for now, since I have some other things to attend to 00:55:44 Thanks. 01:02:24 -!- cpach_ [~cpach@h125n2-veo-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:02:44 cpach [~cpach@h125n2-veo-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #scheme 01:07:34 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:09:22 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 01:34:22 Why can't databases with write-ahead logs be opened read-only? Why couldn't the wal-index be constructed in memory without writing to any files? 01:37:41 -!- cinolt [~cinolt@108-230-150-77.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:38:50 Riastradh: Context? 01:39:08 I certainly have heard of systems that do the latter. 01:40:21 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-113-249.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:59 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:43:12 Oops. 01:43:19 That was supposed to go to #sqlite. 01:43:34 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:18:19 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #scheme 02:18:52 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:16 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 02:25:11 -!- Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! 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lambda 10:02:04 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 10:04:37 -!- tenq [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:05:30 with one clause, that is 10:06:07 what is the mean of the word "clause" when talking about syntax, in general? 10:20:08 -!- samth_away [~samth@samth2.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:20:33 -!- danking [~danking@gorf.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:21:59 danking [~danking@gorf.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 10:22:04 (btw i live in norway -- if you're all sleeping) 10:22:04 samth_away [~samth@samth2.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 10:23:02 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 10:37:09 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:47:07 -!- dsp is now known as \dsp 10:47:55 -!- \dsp is now known as dsp 10:52:02 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 11:00:10 pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has joined #scheme 11:00:20 dnolen` 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[~Eddie@th130213.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has quit [Quit: introom] 14:34:45 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:34 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:26:15 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:01 thatJasonSmith [~vader@ip68-102-56-198.ks.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 15:31:34 (let ((a 12) (b -21)) (list (* a a) (* b b))) 15:32:31 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:32:34 -!- microcode [~microcode@bas1-toronto04-1176392378.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:33:08 microcode [~microcode@bas1-toronto04-1176392272.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 15:33:25 i just tested a let-construct with random number values and it turned out to be a nice symmetric answer. too bad that the symmetric property don't hold for every other numbers -- the negative inverse ordering of the digits 15:51:49 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 15:54:28 igli [~igli@fu/coder/igli] has joined #scheme 15:54:35 megha [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 15:54:40 pierpa [~user@95.236.59.155] has joined #scheme 16:01:07 -!- HotHat [~lyhux@58.22.249.129] has left #scheme 16:05:27 what libraries are useful to learn/start with in scheme if i want to make some (perhaps) useful program or shell utility? i have only used R5RS/base before 16:10:00 -!- zifeitong [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:02 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:24:56 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 16:33:01 -!- taraz [~user@p5DCA36B4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:30 -!- pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:42:21 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 16:45:14 dsp_ 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[~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 17:34:57 tupi [~user@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 17:37:40 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 17:42:11 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-133-246.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:47:11 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:48:49 -!- fdr [~user@186.231.45.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:09 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.20.26] has joined #scheme 17:55:41 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-133-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:57:45 -!- megha [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 18:00:19 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:25:53 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@pD9E16084.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:33:16 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:34:02 htor: the SRFI collection. 18:34:10 http://srfi.schemers.org/ 18:34:48 The most widely implemented SRFIs are probably the most useful: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tRCHK6jWXuKMABKAfoOwWqw 18:37:46 0 implementations of 49... I guess that's the least useful? ah... an alternate (python-like?) syntax. http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-49/ 18:39:05 aeth: you think scheme isn't useful? 18:40:32 htor: no, pjb said that the most widely implemented SRFIs are probably the most useful, which implies that the least implemented SRFIs are probably the least useful, and SRFI 49 has 0 implementations. SRFI 49, which I linked to, has an indentation-based syntax (probably Python-inspired) rather than a parentheses-based syntax 18:40:54 I can see how that would, in fact, not be very useful to implement. 18:43:28 aeth: okay, misinterpreted that sentence 18:43:32 -!- brianloveswords [~brianlove@li124-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:44:10 brianloveswords [~brianlove@li124-154.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 18:44:31 aeth: i'm okay with parenthesis-based syntax though, that's one of the things i like with lisp 18:44:46 exactly. 18:48:00 so the srfi #9 is the most implemented here? 18:50:57 why isn't racket listed in that table? is it plt scheme? 18:51:23 http://plt-scheme.org/ 18:51:30 I would guess that it's slightly out of date, then. 18:51:42 4.2.1 was before 5.0, when it got renamed to racket 18:52:24 -!- sleepduck is now known as DrDuck 18:52:43 aeth: i see 18:53:39 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:54:12 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-149-171.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:54:53 what do i need to do simple file I/O in scheme? 19:04:43 -!- thatJasonSmith [~vader@ip68-102-56-198.ks.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:05:05 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:06:31 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:19:25 htor: open-input-file, open-output-file, read-char and write-char :) 19:21:17 -!- ijp [~user@host81-155-30-8.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: The garbage collector got me] 19:21:34 thatJasonSmith [~vader@ip68-102-56-198.ks.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:21:44 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-149-171.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 19:28:38 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-149-171.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:33:12 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:35:13 good evening, Riastradh 19:35:23 Hi. 19:37:10 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:52:34 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:54:07 ecraven: thanks, that wasn't too bad! 19:57:46 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 19:59:15 what on earth is dynamic-wind? 19:59:55 Wind that changes. 20:01:45 that makes sense. not. 20:02:16 (dynamic-wind before thunk after) calls thunk. Every time control enters thunk, it calls before. Every time control exits thunk, it calls after. 20:02:38 If there are no interesting control transfers, then it's the same as (begin (before) (begin0 (thunk) (after))). 20:03:02 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-197.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:07:31 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:10:31 okay. are thunks tagged lists? 20:12:24 No. A thunk is a zero-argument procedure. 20:13:43 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:16:14 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:16:57 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 20:23:11 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 20:28:52 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 20:28:53 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:28:53 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 20:32:24 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 20:32:56 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@pD9E16084.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:33:27 -!- Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 20:37:32 ASau` [~user@p5797E512.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:40:32 pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has joined #scheme 20:41:09 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF963D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:46:50 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD910A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:47:16 taylanub [tub@p4FD91BDD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:47:58 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@pD9E16084.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:48:13 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-235-184.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:00 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 20:51:31 pothos [~pothos@114-36-242-129.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:52:29 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:29 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:04:31 -!- pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:05:08 pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has joined #scheme 21:14:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-132.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:19:04 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 21:25:19 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:27:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:34 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-197.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:30:50 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:11 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 21:55:35 miql_ [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 21:57:21 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-197.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:57:32 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:02:47 -!- civodul [~user@reverse-83.fdn.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:12:45 -!- pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:14:24 pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has joined #scheme 22:17:07 tenq [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:19:16 -!- tupi [~user@139.82.89.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:24:02 -!- pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:26:09 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:28:19 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:44:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:35 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-197.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 23:10:31 .oO(thwap) 23:12:00 amoe_ [~amoe@host-78-147-104-51.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 23:13:17 -!- brianloveswords [~brianlove@li124-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:15:17 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-2-96-237-247.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:15:28 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.20.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:40 brianloveswords [~brianlove@li124-154.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 23:18:56 bjz_ [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 23:21:48 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:21:49 -!- bjz_ [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:04 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 23:24:13 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 23:28:05 -!- Triclops256|away is now known as Triclops256 23:40:58 petrus_ [~petrus@unaffiliated/petrus] has joined #scheme 23:50:33 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme