00:01:24 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:04:09 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD938F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:04:38 taylanub [tub@p4FD9370D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 00:05:50 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 00:30:09 -!- deveux [~deveux@74.red-83-45-150.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:33:21 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:34:46 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 00:48:32 agumonkey [~agu@97.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:24 amoe [~amoe@host-2-96-237-124.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:59 -!- LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af431b9.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:55:52 -!- walter [~walter@ip-64-134-101-130.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:01:31 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:01:57 trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.140] has joined #scheme 01:05:48 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:06:12 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-21-70.dynamic.telemach.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:08:21 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af431b9.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 01:12:34 BossKonaSegwaY1 [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:12:42 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:13:53 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-197.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:20:15 -!- BossKonaSegwaY1 [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:22:03 pjb: I could teach you 01:31:11 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:31:22 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:53 jcowan [~jcowan@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 01:37:08 cinolt [4247579e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.71.87.158] has joined #scheme 01:38:27 How is binary I/O usually done with Scheme? Is it highly implementation-dependent? 01:42:39 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:43:27 cinolt: Pretty much, yes. R6RS standardizes it, and so does the R7RS draft. 01:43:35 mmhm 01:43:55 I like R7RS for the most part 01:44:02 I hope it gains implementation momentum 01:44:12 Good. Are you voting for it? 01:44:57 voting where, on what? 01:45:15 on whether or not the draft passes? 01:45:21 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:26 is that a process I can involve myself in? 01:45:31 I've just been reading the drafts personally 01:45:34 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:45:46 Any member of the Scheme community can vote. 01:46:04 cool 01:47:18 I'll definitely get in on that action 01:47:21 thanks, jcowan 01:48:32 yeming [~user@180.168.36.194] has joined #scheme 01:51:31 microcode: See http://lists.scheme-reports.org/pipermail/scheme-reports/2013-April/003299.html for how to vote. 01:51:31 http://tinyurl.com/cbr8y7d 01:52:12 jcowan++ so organized :) 01:52:54 adiii [~adityavit@65-122-15-169.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:49 For a R5RS implementation, what would be a "general" way to go about it? So I at least know what to search? 01:54:59 Are you looking to find one or to write one yourself? 01:55:05 cinolt: you would probably go byte-by-byte with something like http://practical-scheme.net/wiliki/schemexref.cgi?open-output-file 01:55:07 etc. 01:55:26 -!- agumonkey [~agu@97.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:57:42 jcowan: Not sure what you mean by that, I guess I'd be looking to "find" an implementation that can do it. 01:58:46 microcode: I'd still need something that is able to convert integers to some size and encoding (how many bytes, little endian vs big endian etc.) 01:58:48 Most Scheme implementations provide R5RS. 01:59:21 Oh, sorry, I lost the context. 01:59:27 You're asking about binary I/O. 01:59:32 yeah 02:00:03 cinolt: go ahead and decide for yourself what endianness and precision you want 02:00:10 then calculate that stuff yourself :P 02:00:34 Character I/O really can't do byte I/O in an implementation-independent manner. 02:00:49 microcode: Seems fair, but still when I try (write 1 port) it writes the ASCII value, not the binary value. 02:00:52 There is no guarantee of what encoding you are going to get. 02:01:08 write always writes a Scheme datum representation. 02:01:31 You want write-char, but there is no guarantee it will work, because the character encoding is implementation-dependent. 02:02:24 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:02:58 http://www.okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/binary-io.html 02:03:32 this guy claims his implementation should work on any R5RS system 02:04:43 u8vector is standard, isn't it? 02:04:59 It's part of SRFI 4, but not R5RS. 02:05:31 R6RS and R7RS have it under the name of bytevector. 02:05:41 SRFI 66 02:06:08 provides a different setup 02:06:12 To be precise, Oleg claims it works if (char->integer (read-char)) returns the appropriate value from 0 to 255. Which is implementation-dependent. On Chibi, for example, it won't. 02:06:46 yeah 02:07:03 hmm 02:08:16 But Chibi has read-u8 as part of R7RS, so no problems. 02:12:02 shouldn't that be read-byte or something? 02:12:08 since u8vector is now bytevector? 02:12:12 hmm 02:15:32 it's funny 02:15:44 I'm reading this implementation-independent lib for this 02:15:56 and it uses the opposite substitution of names 02:16:02 uses u8vector s 02:16:06 and read-byte 02:16:27 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:57 Chibi seems decent. I'll probably just go with the native R7RS route. 02:24:03 mmhm 02:24:28 there will probably soon be more r7rs implementations as well 02:24:49 considering the similarity to R5RS 02:30:38 Indeed. 02:30:58 Chicken and Gambit folks are both working on it, and there is also Sagittarius, a new R6RS/R7RS implementation in progress. 02:31:24 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:31:56 cool 02:32:19 it feels better to hear that now 02:33:10 microcode: I'm trying to make an R7RS scheme 02:33:47 I don't think I'll ever get call/cc working, or TCO 02:34:35 yeah, reading about that, I'm not really sure how one would implement it cleanly 02:35:11 it's tough 02:35:41 will it have a major impact on complexity of implementing the standard? 02:35:51 I would have to pick a different implementation language to fix call/cc and TCO 02:35:57 I've not tried yet, so I'm curious 02:36:37 those two have been in there since R1RS, 02:37:14 ahh 02:37:31 nobody talks about them 02:37:35 and I've not really seen them used 02:37:40 but I assume they're useful for some things 02:37:42 microcode: the most complex new thing is probably bytevectors 02:38:07 microcode: which is the old definition of string before unicode, so that's pretty easy 02:40:01 microcode: also, people talk about call/cc and TCO all the time 02:45:48 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 02:46:09 -!- jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:47:04 I must miss it 02:47:30 -!- adiii [~adityavit@65-122-15-169.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:47:36 trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.140] has joined #scheme 02:51:20 So hey, I've got this really fantastic TCO. Who wants to talk about it? 02:51:57 Is it instantaneous TCO, or just amortized TCO? 02:52:40 Instantaneous if I'm selling, amortized if I'm buying! 02:54:05 -!- Triclops256|away is now known as Triclops256 02:56:20 haha 02:56:42 gnomon: congratulations 02:57:35 gnomon: are you going to vote? 02:58:49 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 02:59:52 jcowan: can you give me an example of some software which uses call/cc? 03:00:04 I don't think I've seen a continuation 03:00:46 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:01:30 jcowan, if I do, I will be an uninformed voter: my activity in this channel is unfortunately representative of my involvement in the Scheme standardization process as a whole. I'm doing that Young Professional thing of letting my career eat my whole life, minus the Young part. 03:01:44 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:02:11 gnomon: no way! me too! 03:02:15 plus the young part 03:03:20 microcode: You see continuations all the time, except you don't actually *see* them, they are just implicit. 03:03:41 microcode, a continuation is just a future forward path for your program. 03:03:50 When you want to do something in Scheme that takes a special case in other languages, you use call/cc as the basic building block. 03:04:02 ahh 03:04:08 makes sense 03:04:11 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:04:20 so what's with these people wanting to discard it? 03:04:24 For example, early return from a procedure, or coroutines (the "samefringe" problem), or backtracking, or threads. 03:04:26 microcode, most languages give you the ability to name some types of forward paths, but call/cc gives you the power to name _any_ forward path. 03:04:51 ooh 03:04:53 cool 03:05:05 that sounds actually useful 03:05:16 microcode, there's an argument that call/cc is too powerful and prone to abuse, and that it complicates compiler optimizations - precisely the same arguments as were leveled at the "goto" statement in other languages, for many of the same reasons. 03:05:34 call/cc continuations represent the *entire* future of the computation, so once you invoke one, it never returns to you. 03:05:55 So-called delimited continuations allow you to represent only *part* of the future, from *here* to *there* and then it returns to you. 03:06:06 Call/cc is equivalent to setting *there* to be the end of the program. 03:06:44 I'm not going to hoot and hollar for managed execution being the mother of all greatness and glory, and that we should trust our overlords to decide our futures and continuations 03:07:04 GOTO seems easy enough to implement really, if you're in an imperative environment 03:07:10 call/cc seems like a bit of a pain 03:07:29 Goto has the same issues if you are allowed to jump out of the current procedure. It's only simple if you can't do that. 03:07:35 less so though, if you have COW normally I would think 03:08:00 well 03:08:13 GOTO literally is just a jump-to-label in a lot of languages 03:08:31 You can think of call/cc as not only allowing you to jump out of the current procedure, but also to jump *into* a procedure that you were in at one time. 03:08:33 jrapdx [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:34 microcode: http://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/ 03:08:35 no real special cases afaik 03:08:49 As I say, that's because it's restricted to intraprocedural jumps only. 03:08:55 as in C 03:09:11 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:28 so in other languages, it's sugar-coated with something that makes it more complex than a jump? 03:10:14 Or the opposite of sugar-coated, which makes it something other than a jump by allowing it to quietly break other guarantees made by the language. 03:10:18 adu: that's quite cool 03:10:21 Right, the stack needs to be reset if you jump into a procedure that called you. 03:10:41 that's not a jump 03:10:47 And if you are allowed to jump back in, then the stack has to be a tree, specifically a Multiple Worlds Interpretation tree. 03:10:50 jumps don't affect the stack afaik 03:11:06 It's not a machine-code-level jump 03:11:10 GOTOs might though I guess 03:11:27 they don't exactly take a frame though do the? 03:11:28 microcode: goto + stack-copy 03:11:34 quite confusing 03:11:36 I see 03:12:08 There are other ways to do it, stack-copying is not necessarily required. 03:12:33 and since I'm writing my scheme in go (which does some funky things with the stack), I've given up on the dream of implementing call/cc 03:13:17 oh someone suggested a trampoline 03:13:36 oh dear god 03:13:56 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-uumjoqnvivbaffkj] has joined #scheme 03:14:01 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 03:14:01 Trampolines are all fun and games until someone gets rambunctious and ends up in the hedge. Again. Not to name any names, OFFBY1 I AM LOOKING AT YOU. 03:14:16 >I'm implementing a dynamic language as an interpreter on a static language running in a virtual machine 03:14:30 give up on life :( 03:14:35 ? 03:15:29 microcode, it's VMs all the way down. Your CPU instruction set architecture gets transformed into microcode, which is then often further refined into RISC-y micro-ops; it really is turtles all the way down. 03:15:35 microcode: can you elaborate? 03:16:00 :( 03:16:02 :((( 03:16:12 stop abstracting my machines, guys 03:16:20 this is why I'm trying to build a lisp machine 03:16:37 too many virtual machines, no real machines 03:16:51 MMIX is real 03:17:01 In many ways more real than x86. 03:17:04 adu: I just cringe at the level of abstraction 03:17:07 haha 03:17:14 x86 is very difficult to consider real 03:17:22 it's never been completely defined 03:17:25 Steele's original Scheme interpreter used a trampoline, or UUO as he called it. 03:17:28 nor has it ever been completely implemented 03:17:40 tenq [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:18:46 microcode, your reflexive distaste for unnecessary abstraction is laudable, but beware fixing too firmly in your mind the idea of tilting at that particular windmill, lest your scope expand to covering the entire Dutch countryside. 03:19:42 microcode: In Chicken, each Scheme procedure is translated to a C procedure which allocates data on the C stack and then calls its continuation, so none of them ever return from the C point of view. 03:19:53 gnomon: gaah 03:20:01 When the stack gets too big, all the live data is copied to the heap and then the stack is reset with longjmp(). 03:20:02 so much abstraction in your english 03:20:53 jcowan: that's pretty sad, really 03:21:04 Why? 03:21:07 those stack frames which are left behind for the younger, hipper stack frames 03:21:33 Gone to garbage every one, When will they ever learn? 03:22:05 :( 03:22:42 From the Scheme viewpoint, the C stack is the first-generation heap 03:23:38 It also means you can have a precise garbage collector without having to know just how the C compiler lays out the stack, as long as you know whether it grows up or down. 03:26:21 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:30:29 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 03:40:11 permagreen [~donovan@204.195.27.175] has joined #scheme 03:42:21 UUO was the name of a PDP-11 instruction 03:42:28 PDP-10 03:42:43 On the '11 it was EMT and TRAP 03:44:43 oops, sorry, I meant 10, of course. 03:45:12 how come I didn't see that ratification email earlier? my email filters must be all wrong. 03:47:25 UUO? 03:47:28 Fare! 03:49:34 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 03:50:34 -!- yeming [~user@180.168.36.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51:09 adu: hi 03:51:12 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 03:51:40 Fare: long time no see 03:51:47 ltns indeed 03:52:14 any news on tunes? 03:52:30 *Fare* is still doing CL at Google in Cambridge, but is moving to NYC where there is no such job. Maybe time to move to Racket or some other Lisp. 03:54:08 I recommend racket 03:54:21 I'm confused about this import stuff in R7RS. For instance write-u8 doesn't seem to be defined with (import (scheme)), yet it's defined if I have (import (scheme base)). How am I supposed to know that? 03:54:38 There is no standard library called (scheme). 03:54:41 cinolt: in chibi? 03:54:51 adu: Yep 03:54:57 In the latest chibi, the (scheme) library is now called (chibi) 03:55:02 cinolt: (scheme) isn't a library 03:55:37 So in other words, always (import (scheme base)) and I'm good to go? 03:55:50 racket is on top of my list, indeed 03:56:04 You can start Chibi with "chibi-scheme -xscheme.base" to get an R7RS base import. 03:56:11 I still want to develop a linear lisp dialect for low-level programming, though. 03:56:29 jcowan: you wouldn't have heard of anyone doing that, would you? 03:56:31 Compiled into a concatenative language? 03:56:34 Henry Baker 03:56:38 Now open-binary-output-file isn't defined without (import (scheme)). 03:57:35 That's because it is in (scheme files). If you look at the R7RS draft, you'll see that it says "files library procedure". 03:58:02 The idea is that some Schemes may be embedded enough that they don't support files, so that library (like all libraries except base) is optional for conformance. 03:58:39 Aight, seems to make sense now. 03:58:51 jcowan: dunno -- do concatenative languages do linearity beyond the stack? 03:59:07 yes, saw the hbaker thing, and would use it as a starting point 03:59:10 linearity? 03:59:22 The point is that the linearity is compiled away. 03:59:27 adu: as in linear logic 04:00:40 jcowan, compile it away if you can, but to me it's an essential user-visible language feature to for resource control, memory management, security capabilities, mutual exclusion, etc. 04:00:43 multiplicative conjunction? 04:00:47 what does that even mean? 04:00:58 adu: google girard linear logic 04:01:12 I'm reading the Wikipedia page right now 04:01:26 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ForthStack.html 04:01:29 jarod_ch_ [~jarod_che@115.193.189.227] has joined #scheme 04:01:39 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html 04:01:51 I still don't get it 04:02:09 adu: ever did some basic algebra? 04:02:32 Fare: I'm a mathematician 04:02:51 an expression is linear in X if it is a sum of products where X appears exactly once per product 04:03:17 but why are there 2 ors and 2 ands? 04:03:27 now consider the algebra of data types, with disjunction as sum and conjunction as product 04:03:34 aha 04:04:34 In PL terms, a language is linear iff each parameter and local variable is referenced exactly once. 04:04:43 because A (x) B is a datum that has both A and B at the same time, so you can decomposite and have both pieces 04:04:52 is this related to algebraic datatype differentiation == algebraic datatype path 04:05:32 A & B is the two data floating in parallel in the sea of computations having already been decomposed or never composed 04:05:51 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 04:05:54 amb? 04:06:17 A (+) B is a single datum that has either A or B, but not both - when you open it, you have one, or you have the other 04:06:45 A (P) B is a fork in the universe, where one branch has A, and the other has B 04:06:58 so more like amb indeed 04:07:29 these all would look better with unicode 04:07:45 I used to have a file with those unicode characters 04:08:09 so (x) is struct, (+) is interface, & is enum, and P is amb? 04:08:52 (+) is a usual ML sum type 04:08:58 (x) is a usual ML product type 04:09:06 so (+) is enum 04:09:16 & is parallelism in the same universe 04:09:21 (P) is amb 04:09:28 Concurrency rather than parallelism 04:09:31 despite the name 04:09:40 ok, & is concurrency 04:09:52 and P is parallellism? 04:10:01 (P) - often an upside down &, is amb 04:10:11 I think they are both concurrency 04:10:13 as in parallel quantum universes 04:10:58 so you're in one, or you're in the other, but not in both 04:11:03 http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2012/04/concurrency-vs-parallelism.html 04:11:04 http://tinyurl.com/d56ysn3 04:11:06 Fare: I understand, I just like short words like "struct" instead of product type, and "enum" instead of sum type 04:11:13 whereas with & you have both A and B in the same universe 04:11:21 sum type = "union" 04:11:32 yup, union, not enum 04:11:49 or a struct of an enum and a matching union 04:11:53 jcowan: but a tagged union, and the tag has to come from somewhere... 04:12:05 *jcowan* nods. 04:13:01 Fare: do you like NY? 04:13:30 apart from it's being dirty, aggressive, and either ugly or unaffordable, yes. 04:13:38 its 04:13:49 jrapdx0 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:14:08 if I don't like it there, I can move in 2 years 04:14:24 "Dirty" is a matter of degree. As cities go, I don't find it particularly so. HOwever, it's true that we don't have alleys, so garbage cans have to be on the street. 04:14:41 interesting, I need time and grass in order to develop software, most people just need energy drinks, not me 04:14:54 I feel like NY has neither time nor grass 04:15:02 We do have shared grass in substantial quantities. 04:16:50 adu: Except for the special case of getting bit-level access to floats and pointers, unions are basically always tagged, even if the tag is only in the programmer's head. 04:16:54 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:17:31 BossKonaSegwaY1 [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:17:51 also, city will be an intellectual downgrade from snotty Cambridge MA. 04:18:17 (how do they do unions in Go?) 04:19:18 jrapdx1 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:20:17 -!- jrapdx0 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:21:13 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:21:52 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:23:23 jcowan, are you based in NYC ? Do you mean the LispNYC ? Are there other interesting meetup groups? 04:27:07 -!- Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 04:28:18 -!- cinolt [4247579e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.71.87.158] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:28:47 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #scheme 04:29:24 -!- jarod_ch_ [~jarod_che@115.193.189.227] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 04:30:50 Fare: they do interfaces with a method that starts with a lowercase letter, and so can only be implemented by the current package, which effectively limits the number of instances of that type to your choosing 04:30:50 zacts` [~user@75-161-65-104.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 04:30:59 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:32:44 -!- BossKonaSegwaY1 [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:33:09 -!- zacts` is now known as zacts 04:33:18 Fare: as a bad example, type Bool interface {isBool()}; type (True struct{}; False struct{}); func (_ True) isBool() {}; func (_ False) isBool() {}; 04:33:21 -!- zacts [~user@75-161-65-104.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:33:21 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 04:34:35 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:26 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:39:12 -!- jrapdx1 is now known as jrapdx 04:39:51 Fare: I'm based on NYC, or more accurately I live there. 04:39:59 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:40:09 jcowan: we should hang out some time. 04:40:14 trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.140] has joined #scheme 04:40:15 Indeed we should. 04:40:20 Dunno when I'm moving. Sometime between now and september. 04:40:28 *jcowan* nods. 04:40:41 dunno where I'll live. Maybe close to Columbia, or maybe Brooklyn. 04:40:44 I don't know when I'm moving either. Sometime after my death. 04:49:31 *jcowan* chuckles. 04:49:46 Say "my death" and whatever conversation has been in progress immediately abends. 04:50:22 can I hang out too? 04:50:27 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #scheme 04:50:46 zacts` [~user@174-28-32-203.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 04:51:33 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:51:49 jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 04:51:55 -!- zacts` [~user@174-28-32-203.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:24 -!- jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53:29 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:54:27 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:54:54 jrapdx0 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:58:22 -!- jrapdx 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the connection] 21:42:50 hopfrog [~quassel@pool-96-236-222-96.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:23 `cons' has no identity element does it, such that e.g. (cons x y) -> y? 21:46:42 klutometis: no 21:46:50 (nor x) 21:47:42 dpk: I thought not; at least `append' has (). 21:48:04 What is the property of `cons' such that it lacks an identity element? 21:48:12 Is anyone aware of a name for the property? 21:48:16 pothos_ [~pothos@1-164-214-14.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:48:36 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-234-12.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:48:37 uh  well cons creates an entirely new object, a pair, from its arguments 21:48:52 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 21:50:00 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298B6E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:50:52 dpk: Yes; I was thinking more along the lines of something related to unital algebra. 21:57:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-27.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping 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