05:01:15 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 05:01:15 05:01:15 -!- names: ccl-logbot adiii Fare white_magic tenq copumpkin yacks alexei___ clog preflex sethalves zzing zacts Obfuscate yazdmich felipe brendyyn gabot pchrist drewc m4burns tessier_ ecraven Nshag saccadewrk__ icelesstea pothos rotty fizzie Nisstyre-laptop nitefli19 em waxysubs` taylanub BossKonaSegwaY mario-goulart adzuci acarrico cky cdidd shardz_ krig_ weinholt antoszka_ mrowe ASau` Euthy mutley89 sirdancealot asumu Natch ijp trusktr ohama robot-beethoven 05:01:15 -!- names: SHODAN araujo Tanami MichaelRaskin hiroaki hiroakip ski_ tupi``` dsmith amgarching b4283 wingo teiresias bipt SeySayux joneshf-laptop gf3 pyro- levi hive-mind kryptiskt pjb fadein Viaken peterhil Triclops256|away yosafbridge ineiros certainty Saeren joast dan64 kunsel gnomon blz37 shachaf offby1 karswell` Guest76703 acieroid FireFly tali713 noam samth stephe joneshf fgudin ft evhan leppie _1126 eli aoh turbofail arbscht finnrobi misv InvalidCo jrslepak 05:01:15 -!- names: Razz Khisanth LeoNerd rapacity mmc githogori ivan\ duncanm muep kranius DerGuteMoritz eMBee ozzloy dessos fds zbigniew copec tizoc klutometis cross stamourv twem2 rudybot pib1972 jaimef amoe arbn d1ck cibs danking aking elliottcable z0d 05:02:31 offby1: Well, the answer is "where it fits", clearly. 05:12:15 myk267 [~myk@adsl-75-23-132-24.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:31:14 -!- pyro- [~pyro@chopstick.dcollins.info] has quit [Changing host] 05:31:14 pyro- [~pyro@unaffiliated/purplepanda] has joined #scheme 05:38:43 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #scheme 05:40:25 -!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:44:00 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:1c6a:7578:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:48:38 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:2812:57e7:b3ee:137e] has joined #scheme 06:01:56 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:02:38 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 06:05:12 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:33 -!- tupi``` [~user@186.205.69.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:17:29 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:27 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 06:48:02 -!- zzing [~zzing@198-91-217-153.cpe.distributel.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 06:56:30 zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 07:02:12 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 07:08:52 -!- white_magic [white_magi@206.126.18.184] has left #scheme 07:10:28 white_magic [white_magi@206.126.18.184] has joined #scheme 07:11:00 did i miss something, ski_? 07:12:57 white_magic : separate function clauses of the same function definition are separated by `;'s (but should be terminated by a `.' after the last one). (also conditional, `case' and `receive' clauses are separated by `;'s) 07:13:37 yea, that's correct 07:13:46 i was too lazy to correct that here after i realized my mistake 07:16:13 i'm not sure of the exact source of the error, though. probably depends on the rest of the definition of `liftProcess' 07:18:23 i sorted it out by now 07:18:37 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 07:18:42 i had modified what liftProcesses was returning to something that was completely wrong 07:18:52 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 07:18:53 so subsequent calls to liftProcess caused an error every time 07:18:59 ah, i see 07:27:07 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:31:07 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:32:26 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:32:54 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 07:35:37 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has joined #scheme 07:45:19 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 07:50:48 -!- weinholt [weinholt@ratio.weinholt.se] has quit [Changing host] 07:50:48 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 08:10:54 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 08:34:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-237.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:35:54 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-54-213.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 08:36:50 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 08:44:22 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:49:07 -!- white_magic [white_magi@206.126.18.184] has left #scheme 08:57:31 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:58:20 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 09:06:39 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD61031.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:09:20 -!- krig_ [~krig@109.74.3.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:10:10 krig [~krig@109.74.3.242] has joined #scheme 09:11:55 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:12:14 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 09:13:24 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:36:33 -!- myk267 [~myk@adsl-75-23-132-24.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ack! 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It's the lhurgoyf!] 09:40:51 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:41:12 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 09:45:22 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD61031.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:51:12 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:51:31 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 09:54:21 -!- dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:14 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-122-136.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:57:18 dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:37:26 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD61031.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:38:20 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47:50 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 10:53:34 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 10:54:14 tacey [~tacey@211.101.48.70] has joined #scheme 10:57:39 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 10:57:55 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD615CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:58:40 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:59:04 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 11:02:58 -!- tacey [~tacey@211.101.48.70] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:03:13 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:24 tacey [~tacey@211.101.48.70] has joined #scheme 11:06:21 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.79] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:16:53 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 11:20:17 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 11:22:53 acedia [~rage@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 11:33:52 -!- tacey [~tacey@211.101.48.70] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:34:37 tacey [~tacey@211.101.48.70] has joined #scheme 11:36:30 -!- tacey [~tacey@211.101.48.70] has quit [Client Quit] 11:37:09 tacey [~tacey@211.101.48.70] has joined #scheme 11:40:49 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:43:07 -!- tacey [~tacey@211.101.48.70] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:44:30 tacey [~tacey@220.231.27.150] has joined #scheme 11:47:24 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:57:57 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 12:00:55 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 12:06:04 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af433ec.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 12:16:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-237.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-237.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 12:20:42 jao [~jao@90.163.238.248] has joined #scheme 12:20:45 -!- jao [~jao@90.163.238.248] has quit [Changing host] 12:20:45 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 12:39:08 mixmix [~mix@86-46-215-179-dynamic.b-ras1.pgs.portlaoise.eircom.net] has joined #scheme 12:44:59 -!- mixmix [~mix@86-46-215-179-dynamic.b-ras1.pgs.portlaoise.eircom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:55:30 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #scheme 12:58:41 -!- sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:34 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:11:56 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 13:12:38 FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-21-70.dynamic.telemach.ba] has joined #scheme 13:15:53 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:16:11 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 13:17:31 -!- tenq [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:25:58 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #scheme 13:27:20 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 13:32:15 -!- tacey [~tacey@220.231.27.150] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:33:20 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:33:34 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 13:39:01 nomous [~nomous@78.209.173.133] has joined #scheme 13:42:04 Is (let/ec foo body) the same as (call/ec (lambda (foo) body)) ? 13:42:05 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:42:33 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 13:42:41 yes 13:43:24 OK. 13:43:39 We should have another alias, `block', for CL refugees. :P 13:44:13 /ec ? 13:44:21 Escape-continuation, aka one-shot. 13:44:34 Ooh, it's like call/cc but not.. 13:45:02 Performs better (in some implementations?). Only can be called once, and not from outside the lexical scope(?) it was created in, or something. 13:45:10 Yah 13:45:25 Well, an ec is creatble on the stack easily. It's basically setjmp/longjmp of sorts 13:45:37 I say "the".. er.. on a stack 13:45:44 *taylanub* doesn't know the details well yet .. 13:49:47 -!- nomous [~nomous@78.209.173.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:10 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:00:14 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 14:01:55 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:02:23 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 14:05:07 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 14:08:15 -!- kryptiskt [~kryptiskt@213.101.209.229] has left #scheme 14:12:21 kryptiskt [~kryptiskt@213.101.209.229] has joined #scheme 14:12:35 -!- kryptiskt [~kryptiskt@213.101.209.229] has quit [Client Quit] 14:18:58 kryptiskt [~kryptiskt@213.101.209.229] has joined #scheme 14:21:56 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:23:25 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.253] has joined #scheme 14:51:20 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kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:37:12 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:41:28 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:45:04 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:19 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 18:47:51 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-183-198.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:49:46 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29807A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:49:48 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:51:18 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:53:00 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:57:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-237.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:58:15 -!- tupi [~user@186.205.69.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:02:08 rndnick4901 [~user@stgt-5f71af29.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 19:19:01 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 19:22:43 -!- rndnick4901 [~user@stgt-5f71af29.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:06 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:31 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:50:08 zzing [~zzing@198-91-217-153.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 19:50:29 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD615CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:50:41 If I have a string such as "1 + 2 - 4" and I wanted to evaluate this, is there an easy means of doing so? 19:50:49 (evaluate in the algebraic sense) 19:51:00 zzing: parse it into a sexp, evaluate this sexp. 19:51:11 int0x80 [~chatzilla@103.16.14.8] has joined #scheme 19:51:40 zzing: google for scheme infix parser 19:51:46 ok 19:54:12 I think I found a way to do my problem without strings 19:54:28 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD615CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:54:53 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-50-18-28-110.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:14 (eval (list '+ 1 (list '- 2 4)) (rnrs-environment 5)) --> -1 19:55:35 rudybot [~luser@ec2-50-18-28-110.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 19:55:36 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-50-18-28-110.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:07 rudybot [~luser@ec2-50-18-28-110.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 19:56:27 rudybot: botsnack 19:56:27 *rudybot* dances happily 19:56:33 rudybot: seen ijp 19:56:33 offby1: ijp was seen in #emacs two hours ago, saying "the dump", and then ijp was seen quitting in host86-184-183-126.range86-184.btcentralplus.com two hours ago, saying "Quit: off babysitting" 19:57:41 I mean: (eval (list '+ 1 (list '- 2 4)) (scheme-report-environment 5)) --> -1 20:10:10 -!- int0x80 [~chatzilla@103.16.14.8] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307122853]] 20:10:11 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:47 actually this other method significantly reduces the search space 20:16:04 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-122-136.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:16:39 damn I hate when my nib gets a fibre from paper caught inbetween the tines. Makes it hard to write solutions to problems. 20:17:53 *offby1* avoids pens and pencils and prefers keyboards 20:18:01 lousy handwriting since childhood; too lazy to improve 20:18:45 I have made quills by hand before 20:19:01 I have some dip pens too :P 20:19:31 *zzing* hands offby1 an ios soft keyboard 20:20:29 My housemate has a keyboard without key labels and mechanical switches - (das keyboard), it is the loudest and annoying thing 20:24:00 Soft keyboards are horrible. Haven't tried a Das or anything similar from what I'm aware, but I know that tactile feedback is generally good. 20:24:18 Assuming that with "soft keyboard" you mean one existing on a touch-display. 20:24:20 My favourite keyboard of all time has to be the one that apple uses now 20:24:26 taylanub, yes 20:24:40 Chicklet I believe is the type I like 20:25:24 But in Canada, now I would have to settle for an Apple because all of the keyboards everyone else ships with laptops are these horrible french canadian abominations (no offense to french canadians, but I hate those keyboards :P) 20:25:42 Although I do love apple machines, so it isn't really settling :P 20:26:53 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-161.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:29:53 I think I am out of practice with functional style of thought 20:31:16 zzing: you're lucky, you can use procedure style in scheme if you want. Use set! 20:31:58 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:32:48 I am going to try a let :P 20:44:22 I almost think haskell would be easier on my mind right now :P 20:45:30 Can I have a list with strings and functions together? 20:45:44 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@ip82-139-81-70.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:46:07 ok, it appears that is yes 20:46:31 sure. 20:47:04 (list + "hello" 42) --> (# hello 42) 20:47:28 Oops. bigloo has a strange way of printing strings 20:47:34 Now say that I had a list such as (list "1" * "2" * "3" * "4") where * is either a function to concatenate together, or leave separate, is there a way to do this? 20:48:00 I don't understand your alternative. 20:48:16 * is bound to a function. (list "1" * "2") returns a list with two strings and a function. 20:48:23 (the function in the middle). 20:48:59 But you probably should work with numbers and symbols instead of strings and function. 20:49:13 (list 1 '* 2 '* 3 '* 4) --> (1 * 2 * 3 * 4) 20:49:30 Basically, if I have '(1 2 3), I want to generate a list, with all combinations such as '(1 2 3) '(12 3) '(1 23) '(123) (although I want to avoid length three combinations, but not too important) 20:49:40 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:49:56 I am trying to work out a way to do this, and I could encode the spaces inbetween the numbers as meaning whether to concatenate or not 20:52:52 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 20:55:20 when you have a list with n operands, you have n-1 operators. You can generate all the combinations of n-1 operators, and then apply them by order of priority. And indeed, you can represent a concatenate operator. 20:55:43 (apply-operator '(+) '(1 2)) --> (+ 1 2) 20:55:50 (apply-operator '(concat) '(1 2)) --> (concat 1 2) 20:55:56 (concat 1 2) --> 12 20:57:05 so (apply-operators '(+ * concat * +) '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) --> (+ (+ 1 (* (* 2 (concat 3 4)) 5)) 6) 20:57:26 The problem is to determine apply the operators in the order of priority. 20:57:30 s/determine// 20:58:47 hmm, this sounds interesting 20:59:07 racket has no apply-operators it seems 20:59:43 No, those are the functions you have to write. 20:59:52 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 21:01:34 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-122-136.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 21:02:03 It doesn't have this concat either 21:02:33 So it's a bug. Debug it: write the concat function. 21:02:39 It's called wishful programming. 21:02:49 You write your program with all the convenient functions. 21:02:59 And then you write the missing functions. (same way). 21:03:17 Not hard to write a concat 21:03:54 Trying to remember my higher order functions 21:04:07 I need a foldr 21:04:14 It has its trick, since it's not a string concatenation, but works on number. You have to consider their decimal representation. 21:04:25 (concat 123 567) --> 123567 21:05:41 hmm, the one I need is indeed string concatenation 21:06:25 (define (concat a b) (+ (* a (number-of-digits b)) b)) 21:06:34 Now write number-of-digits. 21:07:24 That would be number of digits before decimal? 21:07:40 Yes. 21:08:37 (define (number-of-digits n) (assert (and (integer? n) (< 0 n))) (ceiling (log-of-base (1+ n) 10))) 21:09:08 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43d83.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 21:11:03 (define (number-of-digits n) (ceiling (/ (log (+ 1 n)) (log 10)))) 21:11:25 Yes but it's better to abstract it away, rather than writing it inline like that. 21:11:36 (define (log-in-base n base) (/ (log n) (log base))) 21:11:42 abstract what away 21:11:53 The function logarithm in base. 21:12:02 It can be reused. 21:12:43 reminds me of the promise of OOP - reusing things everywhere, although I can see the possibility here :P 21:13:15 This is just a basic mathematical notation. 21:13:36 (define (log-of-base x b) (/ (log x) (log b))) 21:13:42 Instead of writing ln x/ln 10 all the time, we write log x = (log-in-base x 10) 21:15:44 Now this assert you use, is that another thing to write, racket seems not to have that either 21:15:52 jao [~jao@90.163.238.248] has joined #scheme 21:15:54 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 21:15:56 -!- jao [~jao@90.163.238.248] has quit [Changing host] 21:15:56 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 21:16:39 hmm, I found it with google but not in the index in the actual reference 21:16:44 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 21:18:05 For math things, better use math.worlfram.com instead of google.com http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Logarithm.html 21:18:50 pjb, all this math stuff is fairly obvious to me, I am looking up appropraite functions 21:20:50 Should I even be using the racket language? I am not sure if it is helping or hindering 21:20:56 It does appear to support r6rs 21:21:24 Racket is more an IDE than a language. It provides various languages, including indeed r6rs, r5rs and other schemes, and more. 21:22:06 I am aware 21:22:17 Hence why I ask. The interface is very convenient 21:22:36 zzing: I would use #lang racket 21:22:57 if you want static typing then check out typedracket 21:23:02 To answer your question it all depends on your objectives. For me, it's important not to be dependant on the tools. So I try to stick to standards and to write portable programs, ie. programs that can be run in different environments, compiled by different compilers. In the long term, it gives less work. 21:24:23 I have a few motivations for what I am attempting to do. Ultimately, it comes down to a parsing paper that is using scheme (haven't seen the reference as to which one yet) that I want to implement. The secondary motivation is that I have a class next year that includes some use of scheme. 21:24:35 zzing: "reminds me of the promise of OOP - reusing things everywhere" 21:24:37 Everything else is just solving problems attempting to learn something 21:24:55 That's not the promise of OOP, that's the promise of abstract algebra and category theory. :-) 21:25:23 gleag__, the promising, meaning what people were saying about it when it was being promoted thirty years ago 21:25:25 I've been bitten in this respect several times by policy and product changes by commercial entities, hence my choice. But of course, with free software, you can just keep around the sources of your compiler, and if the upstream makes some incompatible or incovenient changes, you can stay with your frozen version of the compiler. But this may still be inconvenient to have to maintain your tools too. 21:25:48 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:50 zzing: I don't recall the actual PARC people ever promising that to anyone. 21:26:02 It was supposed to be a way of modelling stuff. 21:26:15 I can only witness that this promise is fulfilled. 21:26:33 For example, when you write a Cocoa application, you are reusing a ton of code from the Cocoa frameworks. 21:27:08 pjb, and it seems to work very well at that. 21:27:15 True, but how does that differ from reusing, say, libc or Modula-2 standard libraries? 21:27:30 It is much easier and automatic. 21:27:51 I always thought that the reuse referred instead to single entities being able to reuse their code elsewhere in other systems. 21:27:55 To me, reusability seems like an issue orthogonal to this. 21:28:06 -!- gleag__ is now known as gleag 21:28:09 On the other hand, to get good code reuse in OO, you need to have deep enough class hierarchies. 21:28:23 Some people prefer to write flat hierarchies and this leads to a lot of code duplication. 21:28:29 Aargh, hierarchies. :/ 21:28:43 That feels like a dirty word. 21:28:57 That plus the lack of multiple inheritance produces code duplication too. 21:29:58 Deep hierarchies are not my favourite thing 21:30:52 Of course, they require a lot of thinking. 21:30:59 analysis and design. 21:31:26 Probably more than would fit in a Agile/scrum story of reasonable amount of "points". 21:31:57 But you can build them progressively, and move things around. 21:32:06 Isn't it about time for the 'next design methodology scam' to come along? 21:32:10 *gleag* thinks that footnote 52 on page 200 of SICP is one of the best parts of the book. 21:33:18 pages are not numbered on the web. url? 21:33:31 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html 21:33:32 (And of course the text it refers to.) 21:34:38 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-18.html#call_footnote_Temp_289 21:34:40 http://tinyurl.com/blva365 21:34:48 thanks. 21:36:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29807A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:36:52 Well, that's why you cannot use a predetermined methodology with a predetermined OO system. Hence closures or the MOP. 21:37:05 mop? 21:37:06 Again, this just proves the superiority of meta-programming. 21:37:09 zzing: pjb is a common-lisper, so take what he says with a bucket of salt. 21:37:13 Meta Object Protocol. 21:37:26 *zzing* casts ARC on the channel 21:37:31 In the scheme world, relying on standards won't get you anywhere productive as it would in CL. 21:37:38 Well, MOP has been implemented for other languages than CL (CLOS). Eg. there's a MOP for C++. 21:37:47 Also, Racket is not an IDE -- it *includes* DrRacket which is and IDE. 21:38:03 Have a look at https://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html#openc++ 21:38:09 pjb: Please avoid further misinformation. 21:38:10 pjb, template metaprogramming is awesome in C++ :P 21:38:31 No, it's horrible. But MOP C++ programming is OK. 21:38:37 (Guile has GOOPS. Elisp has EIEIO, although that's said to be a macro- and efficiency-hell.) 21:39:13 But EIEIO is not MOP. It's a partial implementation of CLOS. 21:39:20 Reading the GOOPS manual made me (more) depressed about using Objective-C at work .. 21:39:28 pjb: Oh, didn't know that. 21:42:01 -!- edw_ [~edw@cpe-67-250-41-22.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:28 taylanub: only CL let me restore sanity after work, even in Objective-C :-( 21:42:34 edw_ [~edw@cpe-67-250-41-22.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:43:21 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:43:55 I wish my co-workers were less casual programmers; we could use Gambit or so for iOS development. 21:44:05 Is it possible to determine the arity of a function? Specifically, I need to know if it takes one or two parameters 21:44:18 Not in standard Scheme. 21:44:30 Is there a value representing none? 21:44:47 Not in standard Scheme, usually #f is used. 21:45:03 I can definitely use that 21:45:25 or 'nil ;-) 21:45:34 Boo. :P 21:45:50 pjb: Please avoid further misinformation. 21:46:12 Well there are symbols in scheme and they can be use to represent things symbolically. 21:46:21 Such as the absence of a value. 21:46:33 You may prefer 'none, it's ok by me. 21:47:07 I guess it would be fine, but unconventional. 21:47:42 zzing: If you are using racket, then you can use `procedure-arity', otherwise, you'll need to find how your chosen implementation does it. (Like I said, there's no point in sticking to the raw standard.) 21:48:10 eli, I am using racket. I also notice you have a history with it given a search on google scholar :P. 21:48:27 pjb: very interesting, that c++ stuff. 21:48:28 (Yes, I'm one of its developers.) 21:49:13 zzing : template metaprogramming in C++ is like writing a grammar of English in Klingon. 21:49:43 eli, I am interested in developing some things related to parsers, and attached to that is creating a custom language (not scheme). Is that easy to target the DrRacket environment? 21:49:49 tenq [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 21:49:56 A sane person would ask "if grammars of English are written in English, why can't I control the behavior of C++ code with C++ code?" 21:50:26 gleag, do you do template metaprogramming? 21:50:29 Instead of with template code, which is a different language. 21:50:50 zzing: I don't do C++ in the first place. 21:51:03 gleag, that would probably explain your position on it 21:51:11 I probably would do C++ if my life depended on it, but so far, that hasn't materialized. 21:51:19 zzing: Yes, it's very easy, and there's a bunch of quick tutorials etc that will show you how to do it. 21:51:37 I *was* forced to do C++ a long time ago in college and the language just didn't make sense. 21:51:42 eli, very nice 21:51:45 zzing: But note that it's easy with the context of racket -- drracket is just the gui too. 21:51:56 eli, yes 21:51:59 The same thing happened for me with Perl. That also didn't make any sense at all. 21:52:05 gleag, is it possible your professor was subpar? 21:52:32 zzing: most professors are subpar, by definition. 21:52:44 I don't think it's possible to be a good C++ professor. 21:52:44 zzing: The way that you do that is by a combination of a customized reader to provide the parsing, and a module to provide the semantics, and then user code uses "#lang" with your new language. 21:53:21 We have a PhD student (he delayed a bit, so he is 35 or so) here that is essentially an expert in C++, and runs a course on it. He is a brilliant professor. 21:53:35 eli, that sounds ideal 21:53:55 zzing: I've always understood what C++ templates are supposed to do, but that doesn't negate the fact that there must be better ways of achieving the same. 21:53:59 I mean, if he were a good profession, he wouldn't teach C++ to his students. 21:54:07 s/sion/sor/ 21:54:12 zzing: Yeah, making up new languages is the main focus point of racket. 21:54:30 The Haskell folks essentially have The Right Stuff...with the small problem that is the eight different ways of doing it! 21:54:44 eli, I think it would be nice if my university used racket for a first year introduction language. We currently use miranda. 21:54:53 Here, C++ at least wins by teaching everyone to do the same bad thing. 21:55:12 pjb, I am collecting too many buckets of salt. 21:55:59 zzing: Miranda??!! That's ... special. 21:56:33 Has anyone present read Stepanov's Elements of Programming? 21:56:40 eli, I agree. I think it is a case of an older professor not wanting to change slides. It wouldn't take much to change to haskell. But I suspect, scheme could be a great alternative. 21:58:40 eli, in that course, we were doing some basic relational algebra. I wrote a program in c++ to generate all the combinations of functions I needed instead of each one manually, on a print out I generated about 26 pages worth of code. 21:58:48 That kind of stuff is insane 21:59:22 That's meta programming. Much more easily done in scheme or lisp. 22:00:20 pjb: I've never heard of htmlize-region. BTW, do you happen to use org-mode? 22:00:22 pothos_ [~pothos@114-36-228-33.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 22:00:38 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-240-13.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:00:43 *gleag* has considered adopting org-mode as a sane online publishing solution. 22:00:53 eli, interestingly enough I have heard that racket is used as part of a 4th year course on languages. 22:00:54 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 22:01:28 gleag: I have a couple of org-mode files. I'm not a heavy user. 22:01:54 zzing: Re Miranda: it basically died as a result of a failed attempt to have the language trade-marked or commercialized in some other way. Having Haskell as a free alternative pushed Miranda into a grave, practically speaking. 22:02:09 org-mode is pretty ingenious, but I'd appreciate a more documented file format. That would be wonderful to have. 22:02:14 eli, was there ever even a market for miranda? 22:02:17 zzing: Re Racket in a PL course -- there are many places that do that. 22:02:20 I still use restructured text to write "published" documents. 22:02:47 Are there any standards for restructured text? 22:02:55 zzing: I don't remember -- I think that there was something small, but then Haskell made it irrelevant. (Perhaps by some people who grumbled on the attempted name closure.) 22:03:02 Not that I know of, but it's quite documented, and there are several parsers. 22:03:02 I know that Sphinx uses it, but I'd like to write my own tools. 22:03:12 eli, closed source could be an issue too 22:03:28 Not because of NIH, but I'd like to try some meta-stuff to handle stuff. 22:03:31 gleag: have a look at http://www.jarw.org.uk/lisp/cl-docutils.html 22:03:44 http://www.jarw.org.uk/lisp/cl-docutils.html#parse 22:03:51 pjb: thank you, I'll look at it. 22:03:57 I wonder how successful a programming course would be if it started with data types, taught s-expressions, and only then moved to Lisp semantics of s-expressions. 22:04:21 taylanub: how do you want to measure success of your course? 22:04:26 I was using haskell for webdev last year, it is a very nice language, but the type system killed me. I am using python right now, and the basic libraries are exactly the same in how they work. 22:04:26 I can imagine how starting directly with a Lisp can be problematic with regard to the syntax. 22:04:33 Speaking of restructured text: https://notex.ch/ 22:04:40 taylanub: newbies don't mind. 22:04:58 I guess your success criteria must depend on your target audience. 22:05:36 zzing: I don't think it was closed source -- you just had to do add some ridiculous ® or  when you mentioned it. 22:05:40 A good objective measurement of the success of an educational course is probably very difficult, I'm only talking very generally .. 22:06:23 taylanub, this is the first year first semester C course we have: http://cs.uwindsor.ca/~cezeife/courses/60-140/outline/index.html I am almost embarrased to put the link here, the concept list by date is at the bottom of the page. 22:06:40 zzing: trademark, according to the WP page. 22:06:52 eli, ridiculous is the word for sure. 22:07:07 not to mention type variables.... * -> ** -> *** 22:07:10 :) 22:07:28 IIRC that convention dates back to some very early ML. 22:07:48 It is the work of the devil! 22:08:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:08:16 I guess a starter won't mind s-expression syntax at first, but once you reach e.g. `quote' they will have to learn the whole truth, and it might get confusing; teaching s-expressions in their own right first might avoid some problems, and data-types are very important anyway so teaching them first shouldn't be a waste. 22:08:47 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-54-213.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:05 Just throwing my idea out there though, I'm far from a teacher. 22:09:30 Its a shame that a lot of the interesting stuff is pushed to 3rd and 4th year here. THe most interesting thing is really in second year - parsing. 22:09:54 jup, and i got not much understanding of parsing.... 22:10:00 well, just superficially.... 22:10:02 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:10:08 dunno how to make the rulesets..... 22:10:18 even i if i knew the grammar 22:10:47 I am looking into recursive ascent parsers right nwo 22:11:26 When I do (cons 1 (cons 2 3)) I get: '(1 2 . 3) what does the . mean? When I have '(3) the dot goes away. 22:11:49 (cons 1 2) --> (1 . 2) 22:11:57 it is the notation for cons cells. (pairs) 22:12:10 (cons 1 (cons 2 3)) == (1 . (2 . 3)) 22:12:47 try (cons 1 (cons 2 3 nil)) or so.... 22:12:59 But the lisp printer prefers to print lists. proper lists are built from () the empty list, and (cons element proper-list), and printed as (e1 e2  en) 22:13:16 (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '()))) ; no nil in scheme :-( 22:13:18 nil is undefined 22:13:21 (define nil '()) if you wish. 22:13:36 so (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '()))) is printed as (1 2 3) 22:13:43 but it's really (1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) 22:13:52 zzing: S-expressions only have pairs (literally pairs) as a compound data-type. Lists are actually linked-lists of pairs (foo . (bar . (baz . END))), the syntax (foo bar baz) is a convenient shortcut for that. 22:13:53 '(1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) is printed as (1 2 3). 22:14:12 (In Scheme, replace END with (). In CL, with NIL.) 22:14:42 Well, in CL () is read as NIL so you can use () in both. 22:14:45 ok, my main problem right now is that I need to recurse where the value ultimately at the end of the function is a list. 22:14:49 (Conceptually it's the "empty list" actually, I should've used e.g. EMPTY and not END.) 22:14:51 trusktr [~trusktr@c-71-193-54-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:14:57 I would use (:) in haskell and end with [] 22:15:05 (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 22:15:12 (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '()))) 22:15:30 -!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:15:31 aaah blody '() 22:15:47 zzing: You terminate with null? which checks if the object is (). 22:17:01 (You could do (equal? object '()) but that's discouraged. Will even break in future Guile code because we have #nil which doubles as both #f and '(), so you should always use `not' and `null?' etc. instead of testing equality to #f and '(). :P) 22:17:19 (Reason is to support Emacs Lisp, by the way.) 22:17:36 *zzing* runs away from any mention of emacs 22:17:49 *pjb* runs away from any mention of guile. 22:18:06 *taylanub* runs away from the thought of an Emacs-less or Guile-less world. :P 22:18:29 guile reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8egDQiH1-e0 22:19:56 I'm surprised that's not "Guile's theme goes with everything." 22:20:11 (Or another reference to the Street Fighter character.) 22:25:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:04 sonic boom 22:41:43 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-122-136.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:42:41 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29807A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:46:35 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:46:55 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29807A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:52:15 -!- tenq [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:54:23 jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has joined #scheme 22:58:28 kniu [~kniu@c-67-160-8-163.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:07 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:01:42 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:05:48 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:07:51 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:18:33 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:24:12 -!- FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-21-70.dynamic.telemach.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:25:34 -!- Guest45621 is now known as tertl3 23:28:35 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@c-71-193-54-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:29:36 -!- jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:35:41 trusktr [~trusktr@c-71-193-54-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:43:06 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:24 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme