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The JVM is a RISC-on-software processor. 04:02:54 gnomon: A lot of issues could be avoided in its evolution if it'd used wordcode microcode instead of bytecodes. 04:03:14 I have indeed. I'm not saying it's inelegant, only that it's unnecessary. 04:03:32 pr3d4t0r, completely agreed about it being incomplete, and about that incompleteness being the main problem. 04:03:40 It's not _bad_; it's just not good enough to last. 04:05:10 eg. I expect the JVM to be outlived by x86 (and x86-64!) as a compilation target, and likely also ARMv6. 04:06:50 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 04:08:33 gnomon: Unless Oracle comes up with a 64- or 128-bit spec... 04:09:09 gnomon: The issue for them will always be backward compatibility. 04:09:19 gnomon: If the VM were modal, though... problem solved. 04:09:55 gnomon: X86, being CISC, isn;t a very good target. 04:10:22 izisf [~izisf@37.191.200.55] has joined #scheme 04:12:29 pr3d4t0r, far be it for me to _ever_ defend x86 as a model for anything except longevity! Horrible, horribly undeserved, shambling-on-long-after-it-should-have-been-killed longevity. 04:13:22 And no, I really don't see an extension of the JVM spec increasing its longevity - quite the opposite, actually, especially given Oracle's recent engineering prowess. 04:14:08 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:14:25 That said, I'm very curious to see what happens if and when they try! The bizarre shifts of compilation target popularity just fascinate me. 04:14:39 gnomon: Heh. 04:14:42 -!- izisf [~izisf@37.191.200.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:14:56 gnomon: I would like to see a VM + image system like Smalltalk's, R's, or Lisp's. 04:15:03 pr3d4t0r, gosh yes. 04:15:08 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 04:15:17 Smalltalk had it so right in so many ways... 04:15:25 (also, Forth belongs in that VM+image list!) 04:15:36 gnomon: Smalltalk was a victim of Xerox's pigheadedness. 04:15:40 There there, poor little Forth. The mean man didn't intend to make you feel bad. ;) 04:15:52 *gnomon* sighs 04:15:53 Yeah. 04:15:56 gnomon: They could've cleaned the floor with Java if they didn't insist on the exhorbitant licensing prices. 04:16:09 And we all lost out as a result! 04:16:15 gnomon: Indeed. 04:16:34 gnomon: However, Smalltalk forces programmers to think things through. 04:17:12 gnomon: Java is a lot less rigorous. 04:17:27 gnomon: Java forces them only to ensure that types match. 04:17:41 That's true! Smalltalk's requirement for that very vigour places it firmly in my good graces, because it means I have to spend less time tasering developers and beating them with chair legs. 04:17:50 -1s/vigour/rigour/ 04:17:51 Sheesh 04:22:43 gnomon: :) 04:23:45 Actually, you know, we may get there again the long way around! 04:23:56 gnomon: Yeah? 04:25:01 Given the focus on deploying applications as entire Linux containers or bottled VMs, and given how virtualization companies are just now starting to preach the virtues of deploying application containers without an OS layer, we may well come back around to image-based development. 04:25:23 It's kind of the next logical step of those combined efforts. 04:26:17 gnomon: Turnkey, baby! 04:26:53 Yessiree bob! 04:26:59 :) 04:27:24 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:36:40 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:50 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] 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07:41:21 -!- alklazema [~alklazema@D97843CA.cm-3-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:42:46 -!- amoe_ [~amoe@host-78-147-169-168.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:50:24 civodul [~user@193.50.110.140] has joined #scheme 07:50:35 does anyone here know whether chibi scheme provides introspective capabilities? finding out which symbols are bound in an environment, finding all active environments, things like that? 07:56:07 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:08 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-gbgnmakmjqxqjkcm] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:59:56 amoe_ [~amoe@host-2-96-237-41.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 08:01:33 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:03:26 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-2-96-228-128.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:05:16 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 08:11:14 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 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seconds] 12:55:12 zacts` [~user@174-28-187-152.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 12:59:22 serhart [~Adium@2607:f878:ff00:805d:e6:4591:b19:6e86] has joined #scheme 13:02:42 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:11 -!- hopfrog [~quassel@pool-96-236-222-96.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:04:00 hopfrog [~quassel@pool-96-236-222-96.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:05:09 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:05:38 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #scheme 13:10:48 b4283 [~b4283@1-173-99-52.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 13:17:15 -!- serhart [~Adium@2607:f878:ff00:805d:e6:4591:b19:6e86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:28 serhart [~Adium@2607:f878:ff00:805d:e6:4591:b19:6e86] has joined #scheme 13:19:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:19:44 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #scheme 13:23:41 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[Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:01:24 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #scheme 14:02:36 -!- pyro- [~pyro@chopstick.dcollins.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:53 pyro- [~pyro@chopstick.dcollins.info] has joined #scheme 14:04:01 -!- b4283 [~b4283@1-175-244-5.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:04:05 b4283 [~b4283@1-175-244-5.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:52 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:16:20 civodul: Not sure if this is based on it: https://github.com/marcomaggi/vicare/blob/master/scheme/ikarus.pretty-print.sls 14:16:22 http://tinyurl.com/cevowzk 14:21:30 jao [~jao@48.Red-88-17-131.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:21:33 -!- jao [~jao@48.Red-88-17-131.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:21:33 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 14:25:27 -!- serhart [~Adium@2607:f878:ff00:805d:e6:4591:b19:6e86] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:25:50 Good morning. 14:26:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 14:26:31 -!- noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26:56 noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has joined #scheme 14:27:43 GOMADWarrior [~Regis@187.65.193.132] has joined #scheme 14:31:11 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:31:18 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:47 leppie: it seems to be a different beast 14:38:36 -!- b4283 [~b4283@1-175-244-5.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:40:33 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:41:25 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-189-185.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:41:31 -!- lazyden [~lazyden@58.185.121.38] has quit [Quit: lazyden] 14:45:03 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:47:11 b4283 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Emacs)] 17:29:00 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:30:01 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:37:50 Riastradh, cky, taylanub, gnomon: http://www.dzone.com/links/r/howto_and_hownot_integrating_3rd_party_languages.html 17:37:50 http://tinyurl.com/dxdkerw 17:39:22 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:44:16 :-D 17:48:49 cky: It's got about 1,000 individual views so far. 17:49:58 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #scheme 17:50:04 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6030F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:50:29 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:53:00 adiii [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-08.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:53:35 izisf [~izisf@37.191.200.55] has joined #scheme 17:55:49 -!- adiii [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-08.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:58:07 -!- izisf [~izisf@37.191.200.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:04:53 pr3d4t0r: Very nice! 18:05:01 cky: I hope you like the mention. 18:05:14 pr3d4t0r: It's great, thanks! 18:05:17 cky: And the content -- since I was pestering you guys for 3 days. That was... painful :) 18:05:27 Hehehe, awww.... 18:05:38 cky: When I realized all the caveats it became HOWTO and HOWNOT :) 18:06:10 pr3d4t0r: The programming minefield. :-) 18:06:32 pr3d4t0r: Speaking of DZone (since you seem to like publishing stuff there), I'm attending this meetup: http://www.meetup.com/refreshthetriangle/events/107345412/ :-) 18:06:41 *pr3d4t0r* checks. 18:06:47 cky: Are you working for Red Hat? 18:07:23 cky: Just astute deduction. NC Triangle Park, Java by day, Scheme by night. Sounds like RH :) 18:07:39 pr3d4t0r: Hahaha, nice, Red Hat is indeed in the Triangle but I don't work for them. 18:07:45 cky: ;) 18:07:47 pr3d4t0r: I work for a Bay Area company called On-Site. 18:08:11 Ah, the code smells presentation. I've seen it before. 18:08:15 cky: Schweet. 18:08:26 :-) 18:09:15 cky: Let me know when you visit Campbell and, if you're around on a Thu, we'll be happy to host you at our weekly Tech Sushi Run :) 18:10:05 pr3d4t0r: Oh, nice! Will be sure to let you know. :-D 18:10:24 pr3d4t0r: Are you actually based out in Campbell? Or did you mention Campbell because that's where On-Site headquarters are? 18:11:13 cky: No, in San Francisco. 18:11:16 cky: Correct. 18:11:22 cky: So, a 45-minute drive north. 18:11:46 cky: Drive to a Caltrain station, one of us we'll pick you up and bring you back at the San Francisco terminal. 18:13:28 pr3d4t0r: On-Site is situated right next to a VTA light rail station. So there will be no "driving" to a Caltrain station. ;-) 18:13:41 cky: Heh - coolio. 18:13:47 cky: Let me know then when it happens. 18:14:05 Will do. Heck, my workmates are totally looking forward to seeing me again, too (last visit was a year ago). 18:14:25 cky: And, as far as the Scheme code in the article -- be gentle! I'm not a Scheme programmer so I parrotted most of it and just applied the little I learned to building that ONE example :) 18:14:29 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD91FDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:14:32 :-) 18:14:33 cky: w00h00 18:14:35 ! 18:14:40 cky: Bring them with you. 18:14:47 Sure, will do. :-) 18:14:49 taylanub [tub@p4FD93E48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:14:52 cky: Last one we did was a week ago, Mexican food. 18:15:00 cky: Er, Mexican seafood. 18:15:06 cky: No sushi. 18:15:16 I was gonna say, since when Mexican seafood qualify as sushi? ;-) 18:15:26 I mean, if you serve ceviche with sushi rice.... ;-) 18:15:44 cky: Actually, lots of Mexican seafood is eaten raw (or even alive). 18:15:48 cky: Clams of all kinds. 18:16:00 That's awesome, and totally in my alley. 18:16:41 -!- serhart [~Adium@2607:f878:ff00:805d:1990:7148:6536:f910] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:16:45 cky: We have something called aguachiles "water peppers" which are raw peeled shrimp in lemon juice, garlic, and spicy serrano peppers. 18:17:06 That's hardcore. :-) 18:17:08 cky: Similar to Thai "naked ladies", except that we garnish them with onion instead of mint. 18:20:49 cky: Real Mexican food is very different from what you get throughout most of the US. 18:21:03 cky: What people think of as Mexican food here is what we'd think of as fast food. 18:21:15 So my wife tells me. :-) She says that much of what you find in the US is like Tex-Mex. 18:21:32 LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af4341a.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 18:21:35 cky: And a pile of "Mexican" things are actually American: burritos and nachos. 5 de Mayo crazy celebrations. 18:21:44 cky: Yup. 18:21:52 cky: Where's she from? 18:21:54 Anyway, I'd say the same about Chinese food in the US, which you'll pretty much never find in real Chinese communities (except perhaps to cater to Westerners). 18:22:16 pr3d4t0r: My wife is American, but she's known a number of Latin American friends over the years. 18:22:36 cky: Exactly. I have a few Chinese restaurants that I frequent where I'm the only Caucasian who shows up. 18:22:43 :-D 18:22:46 cky: Ah. She isn't from Texas, is she? 18:22:49 No. 18:23:15 cky: She's right - TexMex throughout... and like everything Texas, the "Tex" part spoiled the rest! 18:23:25 As for Chinese restaurants, two positive signs are: 1. lots of Chinese patrons (like you say), and 2. Chinese-language menus. 18:23:40 cky: It's easy here in SF. 18:23:43 I actually do read the Chinese menus and order in Chinese (assuming the server speaks the same dialect as I do). 18:23:46 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43906.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:23:54 cky: Most restaurants have a Chinese menu in the back or separate pages. 18:23:57 Hahahaha (re "tex" spoiling things). 18:24:06 cky: :) 18:24:15 cky: I could use some fresh eel, actually... it's almost lunchtime... 18:24:24 Cool, enjoy your fresh eel. :-) 18:25:19 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.61.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:54 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:29:25 cky: scheme.shp -- is it correct to describe that as the "Scheme heap file"? Or does it have a different name? 18:35:27 -!- leppie [~lolcow@105-236-92-117.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:35:36 You know, I don't know enough SISC internals to know the straight answer to that, but I deeply suspect that to be the case. 18:37:10 leppie [~lolcow@105-236-223-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:37:33 cky: That's the term I used on a reply to a comment. I hope to not have offended the Scheme police. 18:39:56 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 18:42:06 :-) 18:46:43 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:48:42 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:49:24 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:50:59 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6030F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:52:22 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:55:52 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6030F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:56:15 tupi [~user@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 18:57:06 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:59:55 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:59:55 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 19:01:00 serhart 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