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-!- francisl_ [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176367260.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl_] 03:56:04 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 03:57:28 -!- jschuster [~schuster@c-174-62-235-168.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 04:17:36 -!- b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:21:25 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 04:48:04 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:49:50 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 04:50:55 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #scheme 04:52:48 jrapdx [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:58:23 rck [~hakujin@c-76-22-160-120.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:58:51 evening. starting sicp, anyone mind walking me through using racket? 04:59:15 trying to find a way to load a file and be able to call the functions from the repl 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[~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 11:26:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:35:34 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 11:46:44 protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 11:47:38 if i want a statement to return a and b instead of just b as in (if (>5 3) ( two things) ( two things))....how would i do that? 11:48:13 i can make it return 1 thing easilly....two is weird...i feel like there must be a primitive for this 11:48:14 rudybot: eval (values 'two 'things) 11:48:15 ski: your sandbox is ready 11:48:15 ski: ; Value: two 11:48:16 ski: ; Value#2: things 11:48:42 ski: so I could just (values two things) ? 11:48:59 (values 'two 'things) ** 11:51:06 rudybot: eval (call-with-values (lambda () (if (> 5 3) (values 2 9) (values 4 7))) (lambda (first second) `(first is ,first and second is ,second))) 11:51:06 ski: ; Value: (first is 2 and second is 9) 11:51:22 rudybot: eval (require srfi/8) 11:51:22 ski: Done. 11:51:52 rudybot: eval (receive (first second) (if (> 5 3) (values 2 9) (values 4 7)) `(first is ,first and second is ,second)) 11:51:52 ski: ; Value: (first is 2 and second is 9) 11:51:55 if they are variables do i have to quote them with '? 11:52:02 no 11:52:09 thank you 11:52:31 i only quoted above since i chose to have symbols for the two values 11:53:35 see "Scheme Request For Implementation - receive: Binding to multiple values" by John David Stone in 1999 at for `receive' 11:54:48 thank you again 11:55:26 yw 11:58:02 rudybot: eval ((lambda (a b) (+ a b) ((lambda (x) (if (> 8 x) (values 1 2) (values 4 5))) 3)) 11:58:02 protist: your sandbox is ready 11:58:02 protist: error: #:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 11:58:41 rudybot: eval ((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) ((lambda (x) (if (> 8 x) (values 1 2) (values 4 5))) 3)) 11:58:41 protist: error: context expected 1 value, received 2 values: 1 2 11:59:17 ski: ^ ? 11:59:43 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:48 ah 12:00:04 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 12:00:14 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:00:15 nope still confused 12:01:20 rudybot: eval (call-with-values (lambda () ((lambda (x) (if (> 8 x) (values 1 2) (values 4 5))) 3)) (lambda (a b) (+ a b))) 12:01:20 ski: ; Value: 3 12:01:57 rudybot: eval ((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) (values 1 2)) 12:01:57 ski: error: context expected 1 value, received 2 values: 1 2 12:02:40 `((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) (...))' expects to call the procedure `(lambda (a b) (+ a b))', with a single argument, `(...)' 12:03:13 i thought values should fix that? 12:03:15 each argument expression in a procedure application should evaluate to a single value 12:03:46 there is no way to make a procedure evaluate to two values? 12:04:30 i guess call-with-values does that 12:04:33 yes (`values' is a procedure), but there's no way to get procedure *application* to pass multiple values from an argument expression to the procedure 12:04:34 is that standard? 12:04:38 masm [~masm@bl17-202-220.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:04:48 yes 12:05:19 interesting 12:05:23 and `receive' (which is just a handy shorthand over `call-with-values') is "semi-standard" 12:05:33 would be nice if it were implicit 12:06:22 multiple values are for when you want to return more than one value from a procedure, and the caller immediately want to do something with the values 12:06:54 i see 12:06:56 if you want to treat the multiple values as a compound unit, a compound value, then you could return a single list or vector or record instead 12:07:17 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 12:07:30 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:31 rudybot: eval ((lambda (a-pair) (+ (car a-pair) (cdr a-pair))) (cons 1 2)) 12:07:31 ski: ; Value: 3 12:08:24 ah....for some reason I like that much more 12:08:47 it respects the general right to left more in my view 12:09:51 rudybot: eval (let ((a-list (list 1 2))) (+ (first a-list) (second a-list))) 12:09:51 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #scheme 12:09:51 ski: ; Value: 3 12:13:21 rudybot: eval (define-syntax apply-values (syntax-rules () ((apply-values ?operator ?operand) (call-with-values (lambda () ?operand) (lambda the-values (apply ?operator the-values)))))) 12:13:21 ski: Done. 12:13:40 rudybot: eval (apply-values (lambda (a b) (+ a b)) (values 1 2)) 12:13:40 ski: ; Value: 3 12:14:24 protist : here `apply-values' isn't a procedure, but a special form, which is why it is exempt from the "each argument expression in a procedure application should evaluate to a single value" rule 12:16:09 amoe_ [~amoe@host-78-147-171-70.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 12:17:47 i can imagine the lambda it represents :) 12:18:21 rudybot: eval (apply (lambda (a b) (+ a b)) (list 1 2)) ; cf. 12:18:21 ski: ; Value: 3 12:19:18 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-2-96-235-44.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:35:26 -!- wingo [~wingo@37-8-186-24.coucou-networks.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:36:44 -!- add^_ [~user@m213-101-202-240.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:48 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Class-time. o/] 12:36:49 nightfly_ [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #scheme 12:48:32 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #scheme 12:52:08 wingo [~wingo@2a01:e35:8a0b:ec00:28ac:113f:4a65:aa28] has joined #scheme 13:07:26 -!- wingo [~wingo@2a01:e35:8a0b:ec00:28ac:113f:4a65:aa28] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:10:37 b4283 [~b4283@1-172-81-4.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 13:11:47 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 13:22:14 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:22:22 wingo 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Ja!... Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.] 13:27:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@209-6-30-187.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 13:29:34 -!- foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:56 foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 13:33:36 acedia [~rage@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 13:40:58 phao_ [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 13:41:03 -!- phao_ [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:10 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43:52 anyone got a good definition of when source code is malleable, plastic, fluid or viscous (or better terms than these)? 13:44:42 -!- civodul [~user@193.50.110.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:34 hkBst: is that a homework question? :P 13:46:38 protist: not yet, but I could make it one ;P 13:46:50 civodul [~user@193.50.110.204] has joined #scheme 13:46:52 hkBst: hehe :) 13:47:08 hkBst: so you are a professor? 13:47:18 hkBst: where do you teach?...that would be cool to teach scheme 13:47:23 protist: heh, no I'm not 13:47:43 hkBst: ah....I want to be a professor, but it would be sad to teach python 13:50:12 something like: the plasticity of source code is the amount of efforrt necessary to .... 13:58:01 -!- b4283 [~b4283@1-172-81-4.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:28 b4283 [~b4283@1-172-81-4.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 14:00:02 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:29 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:04:05 hkBst: are you just making up terms? 14:04:10 hkBst: why? 14:08:27 -!- civodul [~user@193.50.110.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:11:53 protist: don't teach python, teach programming :-) it's not about the language, it's about the message 14:12:14 although admittedly I have to admit that teaching java would make me depressed, so I see your point 14:12:36 protist: I'm writing something about quality of software for lays. I'd like to say that source code is high-quality if it is understandable and malleable/plastic. Then I want to define those terms. Especially the latter one. For instance changing a character in the source code is easy, but likely a non-sensical change. So the definition would have to make it clear what kind of changes are relevant. 14:14:40 protist: I'm open to better terms like I said. 14:18:43 hkBst: there are other terms already in existence....like "modular" 14:18:47 finnrobi: :) 14:19:00 hkBst: and "style" 14:19:19 hkBst: sometimes the choice of style is less important than consistency 14:19:34 hkBst: but the users of most languages have a general agreed upon style 14:19:45 hkBst: also, "documentation" 14:21:31 hkBst: modularity, style, and documentation are all common terms 14:21:44 protist: modular is good, but why do you care about that? Because modular source code is easier to * than non-modular source code. 14:22:42 hkBst: modular code is easier to repurpose...and also easier to understand, because you have create levels of abstraction with layers of domain specific languages 14:22:43 protist: developers know to care about modularity becasue of that, but to non-devevlopers it doesn't make sense 14:23:40 consistent style adds legibility 14:23:42 protist: so a one-off project need not care about modularity... 14:24:01 modular code is also easier to understand 14:24:04 protist: why does legibility matter to the non-developer? 14:24:31 more legible source code is easier to debug and refactor...and may lead to a superior product 14:24:50 less time spent in reimplementation...more time spent in improvement 14:26:17 protist: so then it would be more direct to claim that: source code is high-quality if it is easy to repurpose, debug and refactor 14:26:24 the quality of "software" and the quality of "source code" can be taken to be two different things...but the characteristics of the source code are correlated with the quality of the result 14:27:13 hkBst: you could say high-quality code is easy to repurpose, debug, and refactor...but defining it's properties is not defining its characteristics 14:27:58 protist: I think lays care about the properties, then the characteristics can be derived from the properties. 14:28:54 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-21-70.dynamic.telemach.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:29:05 developers also care about the properties, but already know that they are derived from the characteristics. 14:29:19 hkBst: the properties are thought to be caused by the characteristics....or so is the idea of some software engineering principles 14:31:51 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:32:39 francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has joined #scheme 14:32:47 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:48 -!- francisl_ is now known as francisl 14:34:31 protist: I think that there are basically two things that humans do with source code. The first is to look at it and try to understand it or prove properties about it. The second is to edit or work on the source code to change it in a meaningful way. I think the effort to do the first action is quantified by the source code's understandability. What quantifies the effort to do the second action? 14:35:35 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 14:38:25 perhaps "modifiability", entailing separation-of-concerns, orthogonality, irredundancy -- or something like that ? 14:39:28 also, to the extend that part of the program is defining an EDSL, the expressivity of that EDSL 14:42:38 hkBst: what are you writing this for? 14:43:40 ski: so if you reverse course and try to define modifiability? 14:44:17 i don't know, but "modifiability" sounds a bit vague to me 14:45:26 i'm not sure whether one should distinguish separation-of-concerns from orthogonality, and i'm not sure if there's some other important part of "modifiability" not listed after "entailing" 14:45:44 protist: I'm trying to get some sort of process in place at work for software development. 14:46:10 perhaps it could be possible to given a single coherent definition of "modifiability", which entails the things we want, and doesn't entail the things we don't want -- i'm not sure 14:48:52 ski: by reverse course I meant to come up with a definition like: modifiability of source code is the amount of effort necessary to * 14:49:03 I don't want to say modifiability equals separation-of-concerns + orthogonality + ... 14:49:24 *ski* nods 14:49:47 (that's what i refered to by "perhaps ...") 14:49:52 :) 14:53:05 I've been thinking about how the extremes of modifiability would be called. I could then say: low quality software is opaque and *, high quality software is transparent and *. 14:53:42 hkBst : did you have a candidate definition of malleable/plastic along similar lines ? 14:54:07 so that's where fluid and viscous came in..., but I don't think they mean anything to a lay 14:54:51 (hm, or perhaps the corresponding term was "understandability" ?) 14:55:11 (i'm sorry if i'm a bit slow atm, i'm a bit tired) 14:55:28 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:55:32 ski: amount of effort necessary to modify the properties of the corresponding software by changing it. 14:56:26 that being "malleability/plasticity" ? 14:56:32 ski: no understandability is separate from modifiability/plasticity/malleability 14:56:35 yes 14:56:50 ok 14:56:55 btw, i think your "The first is to look at it and try to understand it or prove properties about it. The second is to edit or work on the source code to change it in a meaningful way." parallels two important aspects of a programming language : "reasonability" and expressivity 14:58:27 often when increasing expressivity (which seems to have to do not only with how compactly one can express things, but also whether a translation which translates away the feature in question can be local or not), reasonability suffers 15:00:22 one of the victims of having mutable state is that reasonability suffers, it's harder to prove (formally or informally, or even just a sketch in mind) properties of the program, or proving a rewriting semantics-preserving (wrt the things we care to preserve) 15:00:58 ski: reasonability is your preferred term for what I have been calling understandability? 15:01:01 how hard it is to understand or reason about a piece of source code? 15:01:18 hkBst : "reasonability is your preferred ..." -- maybe 15:01:38 how do you like: interpretability? ;P 15:01:42 however, what i have been tentatively calling "reasonability" was mostly considered at a language level 15:02:19 but of course a library, or part of a single program, can at least sometimes be considered to define a mini-language, and so it could apply in those cases as well 15:02:42 ski: you mean how hard is it to understand tha language semantics? As in C++ is unreasonable? 15:02:43 perhaps your "understandability" covers more, though 15:04:32 yes, because of the presence of mutable state, you can't reorder the execution of different chunks of the program, unless you can show in the specific case that it is ok (and otherwise you'd usually need to do some non-trivial change in one or both parts, if possible at all without a major rewrite) 15:05:13 of course, the programmer can erect conventions, and document such implicit dependencies, but it's still a chore 15:05:45 ski: have you looked and concatenative languages? 15:06:05 protist : a little 15:06:15 ski: i don't know much Forth...but I am impressed with the modularity and how explicit the idea is 15:06:55 ski: all functions act on the stack....if you overwrite a function....all previous functions of that name use the previous definition...so the code is completely linear 15:07:02 yes, as long as a word only has local stack effect (and no other effect, say), it seems better 15:07:27 ski: the idea of Forth reminds me of scheme...I think it is fascinating 15:07:40 ski: it also has reflection and metacirculat evaluation 15:08:02 protist : "if you overwrite a function....all previous functions of that name use the previous definition" sounds like the behaviour of the interactors for SML and O'Caml :) 15:08:03 ski: but it is like a level below scheme, even...which sounds impossible 15:08:22 ski: ah i haven't used SML or O'Caml yet :P 15:08:33 hkBst : "interpretability" sounds more vague to me, somehow 15:09:15 ski: forth has a very small set of primitives used to build other primitives...much like scheme 15:09:59 ski: and you can use a function called "see" to look at the code of a function...and if you run it on a really base level function, it will actually show you the assembly code :) 15:10:07 SML is more or less like a statically-typed (with type-inference) Scheme (with some more differences, of course. but the main programming mode is programming with immutable data) 15:11:00 ski: i will probably learn SML at some point...I have an obsession with languages 15:11:27 i recommend learning SML or O'Caml for the module system 15:11:49 ski: Forth is very linear....functions generally consume their arguements (like linear lisp) to have a clean stack 15:11:51 (iiuc, the module system in Scheme48 was inspired by their one) 15:12:27 *ski* isn't really sure what "linear lisp" really amounts to 15:12:42 ski: sec I'll find the paper...it may not be widely known 15:12:43 (i was some time since i read Henry Baker's article) 15:12:56 ski: linear means concatenative IIRC 15:13:15 perhaps Baker really meant "unique" by "linear" 15:13:25 ski: the idea is that things consume their arguements, elliminating the need for garbage collection 15:13:53 there a "linear" as in "linear logic" -- but this is not quite the same as uniqueness (as implemented by Clean and Mercury) 15:13:56 ski: oh, you /did/ read it :) 15:14:04 yes, but years ago 15:14:09 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html 15:14:17 if you care to look again :) 15:15:00 i can't say I've read and studied every bit of it 15:15:04 in Clean and Mercury, you (more or less) can declare variables as "use-once" -- you are only allowed to have one reference to the datums the variable references 15:15:27 it is interesting to think about how things compile 15:15:36 and what kind of machine would run them efficiently 15:16:03 then, an operation which consumes a "unique (/ use-once)" input and compute a unique output can use the "optimization" of reusing the storage, employing update-in-place 15:16:49 smart 15:17:05 I plan to read this as well, you may like this: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/5731 15:17:08 basically like e.g. `append!' in , except that the system prevents you from even attempting to access the old "used-up" input 15:17:48 i haven't seen append!...likely because SICP lectures avoid state :P 15:18:12 anyway, i think there was some confusion in the beginning between a linearity based system, and a uniqueness based system (at least i confess to have confused them in the past) 15:18:45 a datum is unique of we haven't duplicated the reference to it *yet* 15:18:59 s/of/if/ 15:19:02 I'm not sure of the actual etymology of the terms...but when I think linear...I think reverts all changes to state implicitly 15:19:27 or attempts to as needed 15:19:38 while a datum is linear (as in "linear logic") if we promise to not duplicate *this* reference to it in the *future* (but we could well have duplicated it in the past, before we "coerced" it to linear status) 15:19:57 ah 15:20:02 so unqiueness is about the past, and linearity about the future 15:20:24 well then don't allow non-linear -> linear coersion...only allow linear -> nonlinear 15:20:26 as you can figure out, it's uniqueness we need, if we want to use update-in-place 15:20:44 yes, but linear logic explicitly allows "non-linear -> linear" 15:20:49 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:20:50 (but not vice versa) 15:21:00 that sounds completely odd 15:21:11 but i will likely understand better in the not to distant future 15:21:22 linear logic is meant to be a logic about resources 15:22:02 "non-linear `A'" is represented as `! A' (the `!' "modal" connective being read as "of course") 15:22:11 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-22.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:22:13 while "linear `A'" is represented as just `A' itself 15:22:54 hmmm...are these semantics notations? 15:23:01 `A  B' means that we have one `A' resource, and one `B' resource, and we may, and have to, use both 15:23:14 what do you do for a living? 15:24:42 (that is called "multiplicative conjunction") 15:25:05 `A & B' means that the user have a choice of either deciding to get an `A', or to get a `B' (called "internal choice", or "alternate conjunction" or "additive conjunction") 15:25:55 Will there be any portable way to do this in R7RS: http://stackoverflow.com/q/13701605/15541 ? 15:26:03 `A  B' means that someone has already decided whether you'll get an `A' or a `B' (called "internal choice", or "additive disjunction") 15:26:34 R7 small that is 15:26:36 protist : as you can see `A  A' not means that you have exactly two instances of `A's 15:27:00 or large/big (doesnt really matter) 15:27:00 protist : and now you can think of `! A' as meaning that you can get as many instances of `A' as you like 15:27:42 ski: i see 15:27:53 mathematical / eternal truths are modelled by `! A' -- if you "use it" (by converting it to `A', using the "non-linear -> linear" conversion), you still have `! A' left to use as many times more as you like 15:28:19 this motivates the "non-linear -> linear" conversion 15:28:39 ski: what is the name for the A x B one? 15:28:54 multiplicative disjunction? 15:29:10 oh i see, sorry lost the message :) 15:29:38 i didn't mention a `A x B', only multiplicative and additive conjunction : `A  B',`A & B' 15:29:57 i am not fluent in typing utf characters 15:30:10 by x I meant  15:30:43 however, there is also a multiplicative disjunction -- but it's harder to understand (partly since this brings us into (a kind of) classical logic, instead of intuitionistic/constructive logic -- we aren't very used to thinking in a computational way about classical logic) 15:32:14 i often type `' and `' as `(*)' and `(+)' in ascii 15:32:30 hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 15:32:43 ah I thought about that...but felt like I would just be being cute lol 15:32:51 add^_ [~user@m213-101-202-240.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 15:33:12 so i decided to go with the more mundane and professedly ignorant `x' 15:33:43 (or really, *i* type additive disjunction as `+', so that i can reserve `'/`(+)' for multiplicative disjunction -- however, this is non-standard notation -- the standard notation for mult. disj. is an `&' turned upside-down) 15:34:10 are you a professor? 15:34:31 no, i'm a student 15:34:40 ah 15:34:45 where at? 15:34:53 GU/Chalmers 15:35:02 I'm going to switch majors to CS in february 15:35:07 where is that? 15:35:47 ah looked it up 15:35:48 see `/whois ski' for the country domain 15:38:05 what programming languages do you know? 15:38:24 (i realize know is a nebulus term) 15:38:35 civodul [~user@193.50.110.204] has joined #scheme 15:41:13 ,,,,, might be interesting to browse 15:42:28 Viaken [~david@projecthq.biz] has joined #scheme 15:42:55 -!- b4283 [~b4283@1-172-81-4.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:54 ski: saved to my file of things to remember :D 15:45:21 hm (taking nebulousness of "know" into account), BASIC,6502 assembler,some 680x0 assembler,C,Java,Haskell,Prolog,Scheme,SML,Mercury,LambdaProlog,Lolli,MetaML,Erlang,Agda 15:45:48 (in some of these cases, i'm mostly just familiar with the language, but not really with libraries) 15:47:00 nice 15:47:19 (i've looked a little at concatenative languages,constraint (logic) programming,attribute grammars,dataflow as well) 15:47:31 I know Perl to a degree I would call "well" without fear of retribution 15:48:05 I know C decently and some asm 15:48:11 but have dabbled in many languages 15:48:23 your list looks good 15:48:39 I want to learn a language from each paradigm...I've only been programming for a few months 15:49:39 for some of the above, i've mostly dabbled in the sense of reading documentation about how the language works, but not written very much in them 15:49:45 the more paradigms you learn, then better, imo 15:50:02 huseby [~huseby@gateway/tor-sasl/huseby] has joined #scheme 15:52:05 sooner or later, you'll want to look at logic programming. i think Prolog is mandatory here, if for no other reason, then because most of the material available assumes a Prolog-based system 15:52:27 most constraint logic programming systems are based on a Prolog system 15:52:38 interesting they use prolog based systems 15:53:16 the school I'm going to start at in February (I just moved to New Zealand) uses Python....but meh, Python is easy and so I will have more time to teach myself things 15:53:23 there's also Oz (the language used in the book CTM, which some consider as a kind of more modern variant of SICP),Mercury,Goedel (i don't know much about this last one) 15:53:39 what is CTM? 15:54:06 I am currently reading a book on assembly that I will finish in a few days....and then Starting Forth should arrive in the mail 15:54:41 after that I will do SICP....then maybe Denotational Semantics 15:56:32 "Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming", by Peter Van Roy,Seif Haridi, at 15:56:32 be sure to also check out the video lectures for SICP 15:57:28 logic programming can be seen as constraint programming for equality constraints (plus a few things more) 15:57:52 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:58:00 i have been watching a lot of the SICP lectures recently 15:58:38 I'm on lecture 6A 15:58:50 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:59:45 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 16:00:09 -!- add^_ [~user@m213-101-202-240.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:28 ski: I've heard of that book...what did you think of CTM? 16:00:38 ski: i just didn't recognize the abbreviation 16:02:13 , 16:02:14 ok 16:02:14 if you want more book suggestions, then i think "Purely Functional Data Structures" by Chris Okasaki and "Types and Programming Languages" by Benjamin Pierce are two good ones 16:02:15 CTM is nice in that it describes different paradigms (including logic programming) in a single language -- each paradigm corresponding to a particular subset of the language 16:02:21 one nice thing i talks about is declarative concurrency which is possible with dataflow variables 16:02:50 s/i /it / 16:03:02 ski: I just got this right on my first try: http://projecteuler.net/problem=22 16:03:04 ski: :D 16:03:45 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #scheme 16:04:04 ski: thank you for the information...i have also saved these suggestions to my file :) 16:06:02 , 16:06:02 http://tinyurl.com/advatfh 16:06:25 rudybot: that's *two* links, you insensitive clot ! 16:06:26 ski: and then a clot of blood. He brings you infants into the world; you 16:08:40 jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:10:38 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:13:11 masm1 [~masm@bl17-202-220.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 16:14:51 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:55 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:15:56 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-202-220.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:19:00 .. there's also a language, "Io", Raphael L. Levien's language with continuations as fundamental structure, described in his paper "Io: a new programming notation" (1989-09-10) at and in chapter 2 of the book "Advanced Programming Language Design" by Raphael A. Finkel in 1996 at 16:19:06 implementations "Amalthea" by Martin Sandin at and "Ganymede" by BMeph at 16:19:06 http://tinyurl.com/csqffpd 16:19:41 ski: all in my file :) 16:20:35 (in this language, there are no functions, the only abstraction facility is the continuation. instead of writing a function that takes arguments and returns a value, you write a continuation which takes arguments, some of which may be other continuations, out of which it can "return" the result to) 16:21:01 adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:21:56 protist : .. it might perhaps be easiest(?) to first get an understanding of what continuations and (CPS) continuation-passing-style are, in Scheme or SML/NJ say 16:22:34 (but you're welcome to try reading that paper ior chapter if you want) 16:23:35 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:25:13 ski: i can't say when I will look at everything...but I keep lists of things that look interesting 16:25:18 ski: I am in no hurry 16:25:21 ski: :) 16:25:34 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has joined #scheme 16:25:35 ski: i do spend the time to get through material quickly, though 16:29:15 -!- samth [~samth@samth2.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:20 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-21-70.dynamic.telemach.ba] has joined #scheme 16:32:24 samth [~samth@samth2.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:32:24 -!- samth [~samth@samth2.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 16:32:24 samth [~samth@racket/samth] has joined #scheme 16:33:04 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:34:02 -!- civodul [~user@193.50.110.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:04 protist : np, just trying to give some pointers to material i've found interesting 16:41:43 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:45:29 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #scheme 16:47:55 Khisanth 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