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I have used Chicken's awful and really liked it, but would really like something that I could just drop in with Apache 06:37:33 -!- SrPx [b1624343@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.98.67.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:42:01 Sean-Der: 06:42:44 Sean-Der: probably the best thing is to configure apache to forward requests to another scheme process that understands HTTP, using the reverse proxy feature. 06:43:56 jcowan [John@70.44.231.3.res-cmts.bus.ptd.net] has joined #scheme 06:44:52 The seventh draft is published 06:45:09 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs-draft-7.pdf 06:45:31 This is the one that goes to the Steering Committee and gets voted on by the electorate. 06:45:53 there's something called mod_lisp which implements yet another fastcgi-style interface, and andy wingo used it for a while, but eventually came to the conclusion that it was better to just use http. 06:49:01 I see that it still mandates (eqv? +0.0 -0.0) for non-IEEE-754-2008 numbers :-( 06:49:30 Alas, yes. 06:50:09 As far as I am concerned, however, MPFR numbers *are* IEEE 754. 06:50:25 Does MPFR have -0.0? 06:50:45 -!- foof` is now known as foof 06:51:32 Ah, it does. 06:51:44 yes it does, and yet it does _not_ conform to IEEE 754-2008. Therefore, the R7RS draft 7 _requires_ that (eqv? +0.0 -0.0) => #t for MPFR numbers, thus making memoization produce the wrong answers for the reciprocal function and many others. 06:52:46 In that case, list it as a documented deviation from R7RS. 06:53:09 Yes, it's at least in the spirit of R7RS. 06:53:17 That clause was, I think, meant to handle floats with serious semantic differences from IEEE. 06:53:26 Yeah, well. So much for being able to write a portable R7RS program that uses memoization and works properly. 06:53:33 ... 06:53:52 You've never had that in any Scheme standard. 06:54:16 From a practical perspective, I have that in R6RS. 06:54:45 -!- Sean-Der [~sean@NW1-DSL-74-215-64-154.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:54:46 The flaw you found is valid, but in practice implementors will understand what is meant. 06:55:11 I _really_ don't understand why you insist that R6RS is allowed to bend the rules but R7RS isn't. 06:55:53 Yes, and in practice an MPFR implementation will consider itself equivalent to IEEE-754 and return #f for (eqv? +0.0 -0.0). It's the same thing. 06:55:56 What I care about is being able to write a portable program that works reliably, or being able to pass the buck to the implementor if it doesn't work. 06:56:28 Also, signed zeros are a corner case. R6RS is broken for _all_ inexact numbers. 06:57:30 So just document the deviation. It will be just as portable in practice. 06:58:47 My concern is not for Guile. Guile will do the right thing regardless. My concern is writing portable programs, which is what standards should be about, no? 06:59:44 So far there is not even a single implementation which uses MPFR, and the only implementation thinking about it will do the right thing. What are you so afraid of? 06:59:47 You may say that in practice implementors will consider MPFR to be IEEE-754 conformant, but personally I have _much_ less confidence in that than for R6RS. 07:00:41 There are much bigger portability concerns. R7RS small was conservative in what it requires. You're not even guaranteed the full numeric tower or full unicode. 07:01:36 In addition, wherein does MPFR differ from a non-interchange format of 754:2008? 07:01:58 I'm just surprised that you folks have been so cavalier about this issue. 07:02:32 We're not cavailer, and for the record I agree with you, but we've voted on this multiple times. 07:02:49 It's probably the single thing I hate most about the draft. 07:03:03 But all in all, it's not the end of the world. 07:03:09 jcowan: MPFR does not support gradual underflow, which is one of the most important requirements of IEEE-754. 07:03:19 Ah. 07:04:15 foof: I'm glad that you agree with me, so why have you not fixed it? You took on the job of editing this report. 07:04:25 We can't fix things contrary to WG votes. 07:04:31 We have a process. 07:05:09 And the vote in favor of the current definition was very strong - a revote would be unlikely to change anything. 07:05:56 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-28-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:05:56 New information was brought to light since the last vote. It was not clear in people's minds before the vote that the same-bits proposal only solves the problem only for one particular representation, and totally fails for any other representation. Now it is. 07:06:17 That should be reason enough to raise the issue and call for another vote. 07:06:19 This is not new - I brought that issue up. 07:06:58 I brought up a long list of issues with the proposal and the response was tumbleweeds followed by a strong vote in favor of same-bits. 07:07:03 Sean-Der [~sean@NW1-DSL-74-215-64-154.fuse.net] has joined #scheme 07:07:36 This is a failure of the standards process. Two seriously flawed (and mutually incompatible) reports in a row. Maybe it's time to give up on the name Scheme and come up with a new name. 07:08:31 I'm sorry to say that the Scheme standards have become a mess if such a glaring flaw such as this is allowed to end up in the report. 07:09:04 A serious flaw in a report does not make it a "seriously flawed report". 07:09:13 You are being very naive. All standards have flaws. 07:09:40 Including R5RS. 07:09:48 If you truly expect perfection you'll never be happy with anything. We can only strive to do our best. 07:11:06 And there are widely differing opinions on every issue, including eqv?. Many people prefer to use = even for IEEE-754 numbers, and will claim the operational equivalence is "seriously flawed". 07:11:08 I'm sorry, but I don't believe you have done your best. I believe you could have done much better on this issue. 07:12:16 Eqv? is the hardest thing to specify, and the arguments on it have gone back and forth endlessly since the first standards. There is no right answer. 07:13:03 A perfect definition may be elusive, but what you have now is a mess. 07:13:32 You exaggerate. If we voted again we'd be more likely to go back to R5RS. 07:13:33 It does _no_ justice to any representation other than IEEE-754-2008. 07:14:14 Now you can say to yourself "If only I had participated in WG1, I could have prevented this." It probably isn't true, but it may be gratifying to think so. 07:14:23 Which _would_ in practice break your use case, unlike the current definition which I'd wager $100 will never break. 07:14:30 it's not even internally inconsistent. it goes one way for IEEE-754-2008, and the other way for any other representation. 07:15:17 Believe, I very much wish that I had tried to get on the WG1. But I wasn't paying attention to the standards process at that time. 07:15:25 *Believe me 07:15:55 Note that "any other" means *any* other. In particular, the representation of inexact numbers might not even be a floating-point representation in which the terms of the same-bits proposal even make sense. 07:16:21 I take pride in writing reliable programs. That means when it comes to numerics, I have to use R6RS. 07:17:12 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 07:17:28 Well, you are free to lobby the electorate to reject the draft, but I hope you won't, because I think it would be a seriously disproportionate response to an 88-page document to shoot it down for a single sentence. 07:17:29 Then you'll have no community and no real libraries. 07:17:36 jcowan: yes, that's exactly true. That's why the same-bits proposal is fundamentally flawed. I think it's the right thing for that particular representation, but it can't be used for any othe representation. Which means that you haven't solved the problem. So you have to come up with a definition for other representations. 07:18:12 but then the WG1 got lazy and just punted on that. 07:18:34 Eqv? is a problematic procedure, because although in principle it is arbitrary, it defines how locations work (what comes out of a location must be eqv? to what went into it). 07:18:34 We've been working insanely hard and never punted on anything. 07:18:55 We spent in fact far too much time on this issue. 07:18:56 Amen. 07:18:57 Yes, you've been working very hard. I can see that. But you *did* punt on this. 07:19:14 mark_weaver: Thanks for the advice! My only adversion to this is I want as minimal config as possible. A fastcgi scheme would be my dream 07:19:16 We probably discussed this more than any other single issue. 07:19:57 foof: Since you mentioned the things you've had to put into Chibi that you don't like, just because they are in R7RS, I've been trying to identify those. 07:20:13 This can't be one of them, since Chibi doesn't support non-IEEE inexacts. 07:20:53 This is one of them. I prefer the R5RS definition - I think having eqv? and = disagree is too confusing. 07:20:56 I realized though that ballots 1 and 2 don't contain embedded votes, and refer to the most recent version of the ballot pages, not the versions used for tohe ballots. 07:21:16 foof: too confusing? so memoization doesn't matter? 07:21:32 It just means you have to special-case a few things. 07:22:09 We have a *much* bigger gap around memoizing procedures that return procedures, and R6RS is no help at all there. 07:23:07 For me, having 0.0 and -0.0 be eqv? was Just Wrong, which is why I went with same-bits. 07:23:34 No, that issue will never cause a memoized procedure to return the *wrong* answer. (and (eqv? -0.0 +0.0) (not (eqv? (/ -0.0) (/ +0.0)))) => #t *will* cause a memoized numerical function to return the wrong answer. 07:23:48 -0.0 is a blemish on Scheme. IEEE floating point is garbage, but we're stuck with it for efficiency reasons. That doesn't mean I have to like it. 07:24:14 Well, I don't agree with either claim, but fortunately I don't have to. 07:24:29 IEEE floating point is not garbage. If you think so, you haven't done your homework on this. 07:24:55 I understand why you think so. I did for a long time myself, until I researched the issue. 07:25:07 mark_weaver: I don't understand what you are saying about "will never cause a memoized procedure to return the wrong answer." Given that there is no identity function for procedures, it is certainly free to do so. 07:25:34 Return the wrong answer, or any arbitrary answer, that is. 07:26:06 mark_weaver: I've taken my numerical analysis courses, and my day job is largely number crunching. I understand IEEE 754 enough to know it's an efficiency hack. 07:26:24 as long as (eqv? ) never returns #true unless both procedures are exactly equivalent, memoization will not return the *wrong* answer. The worst that will happen is that it won't be as efficient. 07:27:12 The signed zeroes are about getting branch cuts right in the presence of numerical underflows. 07:27:33 NaNs are indeed an efficiency hack, and nothing more. 07:27:37 Yes! Exactly. There should be no underflows. 07:27:42 but the signed zeroes are not a mere efficiency hack. 07:28:21 Just as fixnums don't overflow or wrap but instead promote to bignums, underflows should promote to a higher precision representation. 07:28:40 mark_weaver: Unfortunately there is no such guarantee: ((cdr '(32 . +)) 5 6) => undefined. 07:29:04 sure, you could do that, but that's even more important than NaNs for efficiency. 07:29:48 Also NaNs are part of IEEE 754, so now you're aggreeing with me that it's a hack. 07:29:59 jcowan: are you telling me that an implementation is allowed to have (eqv? ) => #true for procedures that are not equivalent? 07:30:09 I've been thinking about Fateman-Yan extended ratios in the last few days. They are affine, like IEEE; the Kawa implementation of exact infinity, though, is half affine, half projective. 07:30:38 okay, sure, it's an efficiency hack, but it's a _crucial_ efficiency hack. Many things simply would not work without it. 07:30:56 As I said, when you put an object into a pair or vector, what you get out is guaranteed to be eqv? to the object you put in. Since eqv? is implementation-dependent when applied to procedures..... 07:31:07 No efficiency hack is insurmountable. 07:31:21 Anyway, I've got hacking to get back to. 07:31:44 And I've got a bed to go to, with a Significant Other in it (probably asleep). 07:32:01 okay, good night folks. 07:32:33 I would hope that no implementation would return #t on two procedures that do different things, but neither R6RS nor R7RS requires this. 07:33:00 -!- jcowan [John@70.44.231.3.res-cmts.bus.ptd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:35:59 nejucomo [~nejucomo@gateway/tor-sasl/nejucomo] has joined #scheme 07:38:37 I'm reading r6rs and it looks like the shorthand characters for quote and quasiquote are two non-ascii characters that look very confusingly similar in my browser. 07:39:38 Has anyone had positive/negative experiences with these in their code? 07:40:01 Their codepoints are 0x2018 and 0x2019. 07:42:35 nejucomo: the actual codepoints for those shorthands are 0x27 for quote and 0x60 for quasiquote. 07:43:04 (both ascii, obviously) 07:43:12 -!- Sean-Der [~sean@NW1-DSL-74-215-64-154.fuse.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 07:43:29 nejucomo: what URL are you reading this from? 07:44:35 http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-7.html 07:45:05 Actually, I determined those code points from cut'n'paste between my browser and emacs, so maybe there's some transcription noise there. 07:45:09 *nejucomo* views the html source. 07:46:18 Nope, it's actually spelled out as ’ in the html. 07:47:01 nejucomo: the html source messed up those characters. the converter was too clever, presumably in an effort to make them more aesthetically pleasing. 07:48:02 Ok, thanks. 07:48:02 That's relieving. 07:48:44 I thought r6rs had jumped the shark. 07:50:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:50:17 hehe 07:57:43 answer_42 [~answer_42@541AF138.cm-5-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #scheme 08:03:11 -!- kilimanjaro 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[~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-130.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-130.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:03:32 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-149-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: What happened to Systems A through E?] 16:04:20 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 16:08:15 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@213.101.209.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:27 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.27.231] has joined #scheme 16:53:49 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:02:47 nah 17:05:27 -!- b4283 [~b4283@1-172-80-210.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:11:21 -!- Riastrad1 [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:12:01 b4283 [~b4283@1-172-80-210.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 17:18:30 Anyone know why srfi-1 doesn't have lset-adjoin! ? 17:18:42 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-51-49.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:25:34 Ah, I see even the other ! operations aren't *required* to mutate their arguments; I should always set!. 17:34:26 gosh, i would love it if somone could transform all those non-tail-calls into proper tail-calls automatically..... 17:34:47 when possi belle 17:40:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-130.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:42:41 Onionnion|Eee [~ryan@adsl-68-254-165-14.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:47 -!- b4283 [~b4283@1-172-80-210.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:54:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-130.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:55:18 b4283 [~b4283@1-172-80-210.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 17:58:43 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:04:00 albert-irc [~albert@adsl-71-156-38-115.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:08:00 mark_weaver 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20:41:52 jcowan [John@70.44.231.3.res-cmts.bus.ptd.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:38 -!- hiroaki_ [~hiroaki@p5B04BF07.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:49:12 hoi 20:49:49 Well, now that the American election season is over, the Scheme election season is beginning. The candidates are fund-raising like mad, impaired only by their boring names. 20:58:47 hiroaki_ [~hiroaki@77-20-78-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:58:52 Onionnion|Eee [~ryan@adsl-68-254-165-14.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:23 when will the attack ads start? 21:05:47 chicken++ 21:05:52 *g* 21:06:37 I don't know; certainly I will run a compaign permeated with the odor of joss-sticks and honorable high-mindedness. 21:06:57 In any case, it's all about the ground game, as above, so below. 21:07:05 or rather, as below, so above. 21:07:08 what is the campaigning for? 21:07:17 I've been avoiding the rnrs mailing lists for health reasons 21:07:30 The ratification of the current (seventh) draft of R7RS-small. 21:08:11 We had our big burst of toxicity early and got it out of our system. Two opponents perished locked in mutual loathing (well, one had a little help from his unfriends) and since then it's been work and more work. 21:09:07 sounds like a friendly place :-) 21:09:37 Overall yes. We could have done, perhaps, with a little more judicious levity, but overall I would say the stiuation is satisfactory, very satisfactory. 21:10:18 -!- mrm [~user@89.189.142.249.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:10:24 well, you have all heard my opinion on the matter of r7rs, but based on past experience I have little faith I'll convince anyone 21:10:32 youlysses-laptop [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 21:10:56 Sorry; perhaps you could remind me of your views? 21:11:36 languages should be written for programmers, not implementors 21:11:43 that's the very condensed version 21:12:12 r7rs continues the tradition of favouring the latter over the former 21:12:40 ijp: What's an example? 21:12:50 Euthy: the exception system 21:13:23 Euthy: it is a completely orthogonal part of r7rs 21:14:05 In what sense? It is a convenience feature; it can be completely implemented using core constructs only. 21:14:19 jcowan: it's not integrated with any of the builtin procedures 21:14:33 phao [phao@177.146.138.102] has joined #scheme 21:14:44 What would count as integration in this case? 21:14:52 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 21:15:11 say, call-with-input-file giving a known catchable exception when the file does not exist 21:15:22 as opposed to, "lol, an error occurs" 21:16:02 that you broke _all_ of my existing r6rs code didn't set me up for a happy ride either 21:16:48 it is simply not possible to upgrade without any rewriting 21:17:06 In what sense? An exception is guaranteed to be raised, and there is a predicate, namely `file-error?` to test the condition object to see if it represents that particular condition 21:17:38 then this is something that has changed in the last version or so 21:17:47 It's true that R7RS-small isn't an upward compatible version of R6RS. 21:17:59 nor can r7rs large be 21:17:59 ijp: Yes. 21:18:22 which, as I have said, was a bait and switch 21:19:07 I'm still unhappy about the "consistent subset" wording 21:19:24 I very much doubt that those implementation supporting R6RS will abandon it in favor of R7RS support, though they may *add* R7RS support. I expect it will be possible to do so in a fairly portable way, modulo the library system itself, which is mostly backward compatible with R6RS. 21:20:44 Where is this wording of which you speak? Both the WG1 and WG2 charters say "insofar as possible" and "appropriate subset", which language is doubly hedged. 21:20:57 s/language// 21:21:05 hedging on numbers and unicode is what I'm annoyed about 21:21:51 great, I get to rely on ASCII now, I could have done that in any bad language over a decade ago 21:23:02 and the concept of a high-level language without _guaranteed_ bignums, is a contradition in terms 21:24:11 but, as I said, I've had this conversation plenty of times, and I've never convinced any of the 50page crowd 21:24:15 without guaranteed bignums? no? 21:25:01 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60675.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:25:39 you can write a scheme implementation, right now, that is standards compliant and only supports fixed precision integers. For the exact same reason you don't need to support exotic characters like #\ö 21:25:59 Right, provided they don't wrap. 21:26:25 For some users, that may be just what they need. 21:27:16 let them write C 21:27:23 Similarly, there are still lots of dinos who hate Unicode with a passion, and by no means all of them are lazy implementers. 21:28:18 Just because they aren't big on numerical code doesn't mean they want to put up with a language that combines the power and speed of assembler with the readability of assembler. Have some mercy. 21:28:51 In a 35-year programming career, I have never written code that depended on inexact numbers (except in languages where flonums are all you have, like Basic and Perl). 21:31:50 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:33:17 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 21:35:29 -!- youlysses-laptop [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Nap-time] 21:37:11 -!- DT` [~ea@host168-87-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:34 DT` [~ea@host168-87-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 21:44:21 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #scheme 21:44:49 walter|r [~walter_r@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:52:31 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:02:38 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@541AF138.cm-5-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:06:03 -!- civodul [~user@reverse-83.fdn.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:07:47 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:09:08 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 22:13:47 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-51-49.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:22 walter|r_ [~walter_r@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:20:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-130.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:21:55 -!- walter|r [~walter_r@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:18 -!- phao [phao@177.146.138.102] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 22:28:55 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #scheme 22:29:19 huh 22:33:29 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-56-58.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:33:59 *jcowan* wonders what offby1 is huh-ing 22:37:55 That you've never depended on floating point in all that time 22:38:18 I certainly don't use it much, but I have trouble believing that I've never depended on it. 22:40:50 ijp: what about embedding scheme? 22:41:43 you *can* implement everything right in an embedded implementation, but it's nicer to use the host systems primitives, usually 22:42:02 If you want to provide options for disabling features you don't use be my guest, but don't call the crippled thing scheme 22:44:10 the fact is "scheme" generally means vaguely-lispish, rather than actually adhering to any particular standard 22:44:57 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:18 scheme is a strange community: it is both simultaneously obsessed with creating, and ignoring pseudo-standards 22:46:59 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:47:44 and I'm the crazy person for thinking there should be some minimum threshold 22:48:52 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 22:49:02 `Community' is a pretty strong word... 22:57:41 `loose coalition of usually warring tribes' is a bit wordy 22:58:13 langmartin: See Chibi 22:59:25 In school I drew sine curves with TTY graphics, I guess. But after that, no. 23:00:53 rudybot: what about embedding scheme? 23:00:54 ijp: Actually, as the world expert on Scheme implementation compliance, it's really quite good, given how many impls there are. I have 45 of them installed and consensus behavior is usually very clear. 23:00:54 *offby1: It's just PHP and friends that habitually make the stupid mistake of embedding non-embedded DSLs 23:01:39 Where there is chaos, it's usually because the standard is silent. 23:01:45 jcowan: damn! 23:01:53 WHUT? 23:02:03 jcowan: Pity there's no $ to be made consulting as "scheme implementation compliance expert", or is there? 23:02:10 45. Damn. 23:02:11 Eh, probably not. 23:02:43 the standard is silent on approximately everything 23:03:37 anyway, even if we assume r7rs is perfect, which I don't, there is still the larger issue 23:03:46 namely, getting people to test on more than one implementation 23:03:58 Indeed. 23:04:04 People other than me, that is. 23:04:15 offby1: Here's my current list: Racket, Gauche, MIT, Gambit, plain Chicken, Chicken with the numbers egg, Bigloo, Scheme48, scsh, Guile, Kawa, SISC, Chibi, SCM, Chez, Vicare, Larceny, Ypsilon, Mosh, IronScheme, NexJ, STklos, KSi, SigScheme, Shoe, TinyScheme, Scheme 9, Dream, RScheme, Scheme 7, BDC, Xlisp, Rep, Schemik, ELK, UMB, VX, Oaklisp, Llava, SXI, Sizzle, Spark, Femtolisp, Dfsch, Inlab, Owl Lisp. 23:04:42 Hmm. How many of the 45 Schemes are used for more than one application apiece, and how many applications are there running on more than one? 23:04:45 I swear that list is larger every time you mention that 23:05:01 I don't recall seeing Llava or Dfsch before 23:05:11 Naturally. Occasionally I find a new Scheme and add it, if I can build and run it on Linux or Windows. 23:05:19 I'll add mine to it, when it's done 23:05:27 It does about ~95% of R5 currently 23:05:46 Then it should be easy to make it do R7, although libraries will be some work. 23:06:51 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:07:14 Riastradh: I think the answer to the first question is "most of them", though admittedly a few probably have zero applications. 23:07:16 glad you -- or someone like you -- is on "the committee" 23:07:20 for some value of "committee" 23:07:23 *jcowan* grins. 23:07:24 Thanks. 23:07:59 Implementations, like witnesses, have to be weighed, not just counted, which is why I have all those reports linked from http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ImplementationContrasts 23:08:53 I also go through the "fairly complete list" every so often and see if there are any that will work for me now even though they didn't before. 23:10:21 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.27.231] has joined #scheme 23:10:28 TinyScheme, for example, doesn't get much respect, but it is known to be used in a lot of malware (see the home page). 23:12:34 OTOH, I have no idea if there are any applications written on Ypsilon, for example. 23:12:42 -!- Onionnion|Eee [~ryan@adsl-68-254-165-14.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:13:02 So I mostly do the Joe Friday thing and leave the voters to figure out how the data should be used. 23:14:14 at one point I tried making up a list like that. It was awfully hard to maintain :-| 23:14:50 the nominal reason for creating ypsilon was for writing games, but I don't know if any of Fujita's actually do use ypsilon 23:16:59 http://philosecurity.org/2009/01/12/interview-with-an-adware-author <-- claims to be the #1 source of deployed Scheme code in the world 23:17:19 I remember reading that :) 23:19:37 Most of those tests are on fairly core function, because I can't be arsed to remember 45 different ways to load a module into the REPL (well, except for the R6RS systems where it's pretty standardized). 23:24:35 if the tags on the blog are to be believed, littlewing _does_ use ypsilon for making games 23:24:51 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:26:01 but that's kind of a sketchy inference 23:26:20 Okay, all good. As for portability of applications from Scheme to Scheme, it is generally speaking not really necessary, because the underlying Schemes themselves are mostly quite portable. 23:27:13 R7RS therefore focuses (though not exclusively) on allowing people to construct portable libraries, which means allowing escapes from portable code through `cond-expand`. 23:30:23 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:13 jcowan: Did you see that post, by the way, where Chicken (or, more specifically, Peter Bex) is starting to think about R7RS? 23:36:36 Saw and commented on. 23:37:13 I think there's a good chance that Chicken will be an early adopter (as such things go). 23:37:33 jcowan: except that leads to the present situation, where somone says "I have a problem with scheme", they mean they have a problem with $implementation, and few people can help them 23:37:45 jcowan: Oh, great; haven't read the followup yet. It warms the cockles of my heart, in any case, that we've oversprung R6RS to land on R7RS. 23:37:57 It reminds me of babies that skip crawling and head to pull-to-stand. 23:38:08 and the > N $foo libraries for N implementations, none of which match up 23:38:28 Of course some babies (including mine, long ago) go through a phase where they can only crawl backwards. Very frustrating to the poor things! 23:38:45 There's the toy, they're working hard to get to it, yet it gets further away all the time! 23:38:50 Heh! Is that retrograde crawling? 23:39:28 and no-one codes to the standard, because all the useful stuff is written in a non-portable library 23:39:55 *ijp* shuts up, he knows he isn't going to convince anyone 23:40:04 Hence the need for not only R7RS-small but R7RS-large, which will focus on well-known libraries and good facades where consensus doesn't exist. 23:40:18 No, you are making excellent points which require reasoned answers. 23:44:47 see, he's a reasoned schemer, as opposed to one of those hotheads 23:45:15 Much more useful to the cause than IT SUX opposition, which cannot be convinced otherwise, and from which we learn nothing. 23:53:56 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60675.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:53:57 -!- jcowan [John@70.44.231.3.res-cmts.bus.ptd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58:06 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:58:27 -!- walter|r_ [~walter_r@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:26 walter|r [~walter_r@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme