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I know from experience that unless you do the exercises, your understanding of the material will become increasingly superficial over time. 03:54:39 bamm: on the other hand, if you get through SICP and do the exercises successfully, you will know a lot of useful stuff that most professional programmers don't :) 03:54:45 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:55:38 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 03:55:50 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Client Quit] 03:57:25 bamm: out of curiosity, how have you attempted to learn programming in the past, and with what languages? 03:58:34 mark_weaver: I'm a 3rd year CS student and I've worked as a developer in a professional capacity 03:58:48 mark_weaver: Python, Java, C++, Perl 03:58:58 another question: how are you at calculus? easy, hard? 03:59:28 mark_weaver: easy :p, real analysis was hard 03:59:43 mark_weaver: why do you ask? 04:00:19 I asked because SICP is designed for folks who are reasonably good at math. 04:00:48 mark_weaver: First year MIT students are reasonably good at math, yeah 04:01:02 (it was designed for them) 04:01:04 anyway, it sounds like SICP is a good fit for you. I can tell you that SICP made a *huge* difference for me as a programmer. it really opened my eyes to new ways of programming that I never knew existed. 04:01:38 mark_weaver: Can you expound more on that? 04:01:49 "you will know a lot of useful stuff that most professional programmers don't :)" Also, can you name some things? 04:02:17 the languages you mentioned are all specially designed for a certain style of programming, and SICP will show you some entirely different styles (functional programming, constraint progamming, logic programming, etc) that are often superior for solving certain kinds of problems. 04:02:46 mark_weaver: "style" paradigms, right? 04:02:59 I can use lambdas in Python and C++ though 04:03:03 (and I have) 04:03:25 yes, but those styles of programming are nonetheless very awkward in Python and C++. 04:03:51 this is true 04:04:23 awkward enough to strongly discourage venturing too far away from the traditional mainstream imperative object-oriented paradigm. 04:04:46 also, do you know about the SICP video lectures? 04:04:55 mark_weaver: From Berkeley? 04:05:16 I'm talking about the ones from MIT, by the authors of the SICP book. 04:05:26 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@75-142-48-213.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:12:02 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:12:13 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:13:05 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:19:08 -!- mark_weaver [~user@ip68-9-118-38.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:24:22 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:36:16 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:12 cdidd [~cdidd@37-145-137-197.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 04:48:41 is Chapter 5 from SICP useful? 04:49:10 RebelBunny [~RebelBunn@108-250-133-41.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:49:49 yes because thats how most cpu's wrok 04:50:19 jonrafkind: Let me rephrase the question, sorry. I already know ASM, would going through Ch 5 be worth my time? 04:51:01 im sure you'll learn a few things, but its only marginally worthwhile i guess 04:56:18 jonrafkind: "you will know a lot of useful stuff that most professional programmers (who haven't gone through SICP) don't :)" what did mark_weaver mean here? 04:56:56 who knows 04:57:15 jonrafkind: :/ 05:03:26 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 05:05:54 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #scheme 05:14:33 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-111-169-176-119.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:24:49 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@66-168-42-64.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:26:38 yoklov_ [~yoklov@66-168-42-64.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:27:58 -!- bjz [~brendanza@CPE-124-179-202-26.lns6.woo.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:34:02 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:54 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[~john@unaffiliated/hiptobecubic] has joined #scheme 16:21:53 Is there a way to get the current 'uptime' of the scheme program running? 16:22:40 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #scheme 16:23:02 SICP mentions a special variable 'runtime' that "returns an integer that specifies the amount of time the system has been running", but gambit-c doesn't have it apparently. 16:24:00 strange 16:24:05 it should be called uptime 16:24:08 not runtime 16:24:23 runtime is usually associated with currently running enviroment 16:25:35 troydm, i don't really know what i'm doing, but neither (uptime) nor (runtime) are bound after just starting gsi 16:25:53 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:26:13 hiptobecubic: try reading gambit-c documentation 16:26:26 there should be a way to make a system call to get current uptime 16:30:26 troydm, I am looking through it, but this doesn't seem to have it http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit-c.html#Top 16:30:44 /uptime finds nothing and /runtime only finds runtime options 16:35:15 cpu-time apparently 16:37:12 honkfestival [~honkfesti@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:47:54 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.22.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:04 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.22.72] has joined #scheme 16:58:54 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:01:47 civodul [~user@reverse-83.fdn.fr] has joined #scheme 17:02:17 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:03:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:06:44 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 17:11:23 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:18:50 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6007E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has 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That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset] 18:27:59 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #scheme 18:34:30 ijp [~user@host109-151-48-204.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:34:39 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 18:41:30 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:45:16 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-100-168.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:19 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 18:45:26 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:52 dzhus [~dzhus@95-31-27-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 18:46:09 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 18:52:05 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 18:53:11 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:58:38 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #scheme 19:00:43 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71a514.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 19:05:28 astertronistic [~astertron@ip70-181-247-103.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:08:20 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-108-28-107-227.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:10:52 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@95-31-27-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:55 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:33:25 -!- untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71a514.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:44 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 20:07:32 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-29.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 20:09:47 pjb-v [~t@voyager.informatimago.com] has joined #scheme 20:18:05 pothos_ [~pothos@114-36-242-168.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:16 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-225-113.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:18:19 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:18:34 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 20:22:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-190-2.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26:18 jao [~jao@232.Red-83-32-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:26:21 -!- jao [~jao@232.Red-83-32-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:26:22 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 20:36:19 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 20:47:49 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 21:07:00 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:07:40 Ahoy 21:08:13 rudybot: impersonating jcowan is rude 21:08:14 ijp: (And I'm doing THAT so that if foo is compromised, it'll have a harder time impersonating bar.) 21:11:51 see? it's all for our own good. 21:12:05 I was just about to ping jcowan and ask him if he's hiding from the hurricane. 21:25:30 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:32:26 ijp` [~user@host86-143-197-67.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 21:35:08 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-56-58.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:30 -!- ijp [~user@host109-151-48-204.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:36:19 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 21:46:14 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 21:47:54 in line 5, why is (x) required instead of x ? http://codepad.org/ESh2u2MT 21:50:19 hm, hard to explain 21:50:24 it shouldnt be 21:50:26 Because it is matched against list of arguments 21:50:41 ((lambda x x) 1) => (1) 21:50:48 oh oops 5 not 6 21:50:48 all I can say is: if you use plain x, it means "this function takes any number of arguments, which Scheme will collect into a list, and bind that list to x" 21:50:49 ((lambda (x) x) 1) => 1 21:50:59 hmm 21:51:11 so in the first case 21:51:14 (lambda (x) ...) means `a procedure taking one argument, which we shall call x in the ellipsis'. (lambda x ...) meas `a procedure taking any number of arguments, the list of which we shall call x in the ellipsis'. 21:51:15 x is a list 21:51:20 *offby1* hears Huey Lewis in quadrophonic 21:51:52 Yes it is 21:52:00 so in my other example, it worked unintentionally because of apply? http://codepad.org/Zeq32RWB line 29 21:52:06 hoi hoi 21:52:19 jcowan, inquiring minds would like to know whether you are hiding from^W^W^Whave been relocated to an undisclosed location in preparation for the hurricane. 21:52:32 Yes 21:52:45 No, indeed. I am well outside Zone C, never mind Zone A. 21:53:16 *offby1* works in Sector G 21:53:17 Zone C would be flooded only in case of a direct hit by a Category 3 (Katrina-class) or larger hurricane. 21:53:21 MichaelRaskin, ok i get it. Are arguments to lambda always passed as a list? 21:53:23 (my yes was to hiptobecubic) 21:53:37 hiptobecubic: nope 21:53:45 I am safely in Zone Z (i.e. across the atlantic) 21:53:51 hiptobecubic: (lambda (a b c) ... ) takes exactly three arguments, of any type 21:53:53 why are they here, then? 21:54:01 a gets the first; b gets the second; c gets the third. 21:54:08 yes, but that is a list 21:54:12 If you call that function with fewer or more arguments, you get an error 21:54:13 well ... 21:54:19 it's three identifiers inside some parens. 21:54:22 I wouldn't call that a list. 21:54:30 what would you call a list 21:54:35 granted, it _looks_ like the ways lists are _printed_. 21:54:50 You could look at it as if it was pattern-matched against such-looking list 21:54:54 I'd call a list a bunch of cons cells where each one's cdr "points to" another cons cell (except for the "last" one) 21:55:03 In the representation of procedures by list structure, an argument-list is represented by a Lisp list. 21:55:09 Of course, for anything to work it has to be interpreted in a faster way 21:55:22 hiptobecubic: this is indeed a tricky and subtle point that trips up beginners, so don't fret if it's not clear. 21:55:24 a _very_ basic pattern d matcher 21:55:32 Plus none of us, if I may be so bold, has yet explained it well. 21:55:59 It's like the self-portrait of a painter. The painter on the canvas isn't really a painter, he's just paint. The painter's palette isn't really a wooden board, it's just paint. The *paint* on the palette isn't really .. no, wait ... it *is* paint! 21:56:06 Plus this ijp guy keeps following me around. It's creepy! Yesterday I saw him stealing mail from my mail slot. 21:56:18 so, (lambda (a b c) (a b c)) is the same as (lambda x x) which the restriction that x is always a list of three arguments? 21:56:22 Which side of the slot? 21:56:36 hiptobecubic: No. 21:56:37 hiptobecubic: no, it isn't 21:56:38 hiptobecubic: hmm, I'm not sure they _are_ the same. Never thought about that. 21:56:52 rudybot: ((lambda (a b c) (a b c)) 1 2 3) 21:56:53 *offby1: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: 1; arguments were: 2 3 21:56:54 yep 21:57:00 rudybot: ((lambda x x) 1 2 3) 21:57:00 *offby1: ; Value: (1 2 3) 21:57:07 rudybot: ((lambda x x) 'frotz 'plotz) 21:57:08 *offby1: ; Value: (frotz plotz) 21:57:33 ok 21:57:49 jcowan: why, the outside. Had he been inside, the cat would have sat on him, and he'd still be here. 21:57:55 ok thanks guys 21:57:58 with cramped knees. 21:57:58 off to bed 21:58:02 aww 21:58:09 offby1: to be fair, that mail had a selection of fine cheese in it 21:58:17 damn. 21:58:30 the _one_ day my cheese-of-the-month club selection arrives. 21:58:42 I hope you enjoyed it at least. 21:58:51 and some letter from your cousin who is dying or something 21:59:19 maybe it was just dyeing 21:59:35 that'd be Mrs Offby1. 21:59:41 she's seriously into dyeing. 21:59:54 Every month or so. Whole house smells like vinegar (I'm serious). 22:00:04 offby1: yes, cheese always tastes better when on a cross-atlantic cheese pilfering trip 22:00:16 None of my moribund cousins are old enough to use the US mail anyway; they'd post on Facebook. 22:00:45 that's an adage, isn't it? From Poor Richard's Almanack... "cross-atlantic pilfered cheese tastes sharper". 22:01:35 at any rate, it should be 22:01:56 Send Poor Richard an email so it can appear in the 2013 edition. 22:04:24 *jcowan* reads email from Con Edison that quaintly calls on me to make sure my battery-operated radios have plenty of batteries. 22:04:46 *gsap* 22:05:07 *offby1* with unspeakable sadness calls the /me police on jcowan, the last person he ever thought would sink so low 22:05:25 .oO("radios" ... I remember my granddaddy talking about them) 22:05:44 seriously, a battery-operated radio sounds like just the thing in the coming post-apocalyptic world 22:06:09 also: I can't help but feel that, come (say) Thursday, people are going to be saying "Geez, that wasn't nearly as bad as the news made it sound" 22:06:29 Wherefore? I used it properly to describe what I was in fact just doing. /me abuse is about using it to express ordinary sentences beginning with "I". 22:06:52 *ijp* is demonstrating 22:07:00 Of course. Both news and weather channels are all about hyping things up, from the presidential election to hurricanes. Weather.gov is my friend. 22:09:47 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:10:12 jcowan: I was expecting "... calls on him". "... calls on me" sounds weird. 22:11:09 weather.gov used to have a really bare-bones forecast page, which they axed a few months ago. Shame, since it was the easiest way to get a forecast on my phone. 22:11:47 Ah, true. I was just mildly castigating someone in another channel for a grammatical error. Muphry's/Skitt's/Hartmann's Law strikes. 22:13:57 rudybot: are you safe from the hurricane? 22:13:57 ijp: Shoot with steady handheld or Steadicam in the eye of the hurricane  given a lot of the film is in shakycam, they blatantly did not do this 22:15:11 ijp: that's actually a good question. I don't even know what data center he's in, and Amazon has indeed been having trouble with the one in Virginia ... 22:16:53 ah, us-west-1; that sounds safe 22:18:20 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:27:01 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 22:39:03 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:39:13 dzhus [~dzhus@95-31-27-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:40:52 bjz [~brendanza@203-206-132-21.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 22:46:43 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:50:55 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:54:16 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@95-31-27-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:23 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:59:18 -!- civodul [~user@reverse-83.fdn.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:11:42 -!- confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:15:31 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-29.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:17:23 -!- C-Keen [cckeen@pestilenz.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:24:54 adu [~ajr@pool-108-28-107-227.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:25:22 C-Keen [cckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #scheme 23:26:17 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:53 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:29:24 -!- ijp [~user@host86-143-197-67.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:33:07 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:46:31 SlitazMint [~ivar@189.38.208.184] has joined #scheme 23:51:52 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6007E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]