00:11:53 http://www.lambda.org/ 00:12:05 LAMBDA Gay / Lesbian / Bisexual / Transgender Community ... 00:12:06 lold 00:20:55 you need to run chibi-scheme -xscheme tests/division-tests.scm 00:21:26 sorry, -xchibi now 00:22:06 this is for historical reasons because many of the tests are supposed to work even if you haven't compiled chibi with support for modules 00:25:27 (oh, there are more examples I just haven't checked in yet...) 00:25:49 Is foof alex :) 00:25:55 yep 00:26:04 hi, nice work man ;) 00:26:29 thanks - still working at it 00:27:58 About division-tests, it says that division library is deprecated 00:28:57 Yes, R7RS small temporarily added 18 new division operators and we reverted that decision due to size and lack of clear need. 00:33:44 *ijp* chuckles 00:36:11 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-162-26.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:37:00 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-162-26.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:44:19 foof: Can I get documentation from code like in common lisp (documentation 'something) 00:44:41 (define (something) "...." 0) 00:45:21 not yet 00:45:42 I'm doing cleanup right now for the 0.6 release, but will likely add online docs shortly thereafter 00:46:00 ok 00:46:17 when you will release 0.6 00:46:25 this month 00:48:13 mark_weaver: BTW, while I'm equally unhappy with the state of eqv?, R6RS is worse. Technically in R6RS no numbers are ever eqv?. 00:48:13 bluephoenix47 [~bluephoen@hulk.soic.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 00:48:59 foof: why do you say that? 00:49:58 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:50:06 bullshit 00:51:52 foof: are you referring to the circular nature of the definition? i.e. that inexact numbers are 'eqv?' only if they yield the same results (in the sense of 'eqv?') ? 00:52:32 if so, I confess that it also troubles me, but in practice I suspect that implementors will understand what is meant. 00:52:39 mark_weaver: the definition requires the transitive closure of operations to be = 00:53:20 but with functions like (lambda (x) (/ (* x 0.0) 0.0)) it's trivial to make put +nan.0 into the closure 00:53:28 and (= +nan.0 +nan.0) => #f 00:54:09 foof: okay, I see what you mean. good catch :) 00:54:51 The definition can be fixed by wording around that case, but as it stands R6RS is the worst of all eqv? definitions. 00:55:55 on a semi-related note, it slightly bothers me that = is the only variable arity equivalence procedure in the standard 00:56:49 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:57:22 foof: I agree that the R6RS has a completely broken definition, if interpreted rigorously. 00:57:40 -!- russfrank [~russfrank@oftn/member/russfrank] has left #scheme 00:57:44 How else do you interpret definitions in standards? :) 00:58:53 foof: well, from a practical standpoint, what I really care about most is that I can write a portable program and have high confidence that it will work properly, and if it doesn't that I can blame the implementor for not following the standard. 00:59:20 foof: in practice, I think that implementors will understand the intent of the R6RS spec for 'eqv?', regardless of what numeric representation is used. 00:59:30 if history has taught us anything, it's that standards are made to be ignored 00:59:42 *programming standards* 00:59:50 foof: the 'same-bits' proposal on the other hand, *requires* that operational equivalence be violated for non-IEEE numbers. 00:59:59 uh this makeinstall takes ages for racket 01:01:07 *mark_weaver* looks at the R3RS definition again, to see if it's better. 01:02:20 no, it's the same as R5RS, but uses operational equivalence for procedures (the reverse of the current trend) 01:03:23 mark_weaver: only for -0.0, and you can't rely on non-IEEE numbers having that concept anyway 01:04:20 and I think you're being unfair requiring strict interpretation for R7RS but the "spirit" of the idea for R6RS 01:04:21 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:07:15 foof: it's a fair point. 01:07:49 perhaps I'm being stupid, but how does a counterexample translate into "no numbers are every eqv?" 01:08:02 foof: you said long ago that you would prefer a simple principle behind the definition of 'eqv?', and R3RS has text that could be used for that: 01:08:23 "The eqv? procedure implements an approximation to the relation of operational equivalence. It returns #t if it can prove that obj1 and obj2 are operationally equivalent. If it can't, it always errs on the conservative side and returns #f." where "operationally equivalent" is defined as follows: 01:08:28 "Two objects are operationally equivalent if and only if there is no way that they can be distinguished, using Scheme primitives other than eqv? or eq? or those like memq and assv whose meaning is defined explicitly in terms of eqv? or eq?." 01:08:45 ijp: you can apply that function to _any_ x 01:08:49 note that this principle can be used for all values, not just numbers. 01:09:38 To be more precise, no _inexact_ numbers are ever 'eqv?' according to the R6RS definition. I don't see a problem with their definition for exact numbers. 01:10:07 mark_weaver: yes, that was the motivation of R3RS, and it's applied to procedures, but for numbers R3RS just uses = and exactness 01:10:10 -!- SlitazMint [~ivar@189.38.208.184] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:10:25 and this principle is not just in R3RS. Will Clinger has defined 'eqv?' using similar language in his writings. 01:11:10 foof: I can see that, but I'm not still sure I see it. That example shows me that division is not a true inverse of multiplication (obvious), not anything about = 01:11:51 The R3RS has two definitions. It has text outlining the fundamental principles of 'eqv?' which I quoted above, and then it has further text for each type, which I admit is the same as the R5RS. 01:12:06 (for numbers) 01:12:14 anyway, my bullshit remark was in reference to exact numbers, inexact numbers have a tendency to confuse me 01:12:45 I'll defer to yours and marks judgement on that 01:13:08 foof: but since the R3RS explained the fundamental principle behind what 'eqv?' should be, it allows readers to extrapolate that definition to new situations (such as the addition of IEEE-754 arithmetic). 01:14:01 R3RS clearly contradicts itself in the presence of IEEE-754 numbers, and to my mind it is clear which definition should be preferred. 01:16:40 foof: I continue to think that the standard would be improved by a description of the operational equivalence principle that 'eqv?' attempts to approximate, even if a precise definition cannot be found, because it would be a guide for implementors to decide how to implement 'eqv?' for new types that were not anticipated by the standard. 01:17:02 oh right, I think I get it now 01:19:10 Since I'm the one who seems to care most about this, I guess it's only fair that I should formulate a specific proposal for what the wording should be. But I think that 01:19:11 if x = y, then f(x) = f(y), which plainly doesn't hold if you can return a nan 01:19:26 R3RS contains reasonable language (the parts that I quoted above). 01:20:23 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:20:23 -!- hiroaki_ [~hiroaki@p5B04A3DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:20:24 -!- copec [~copec@166-70-136-61.ip.unaen.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:20:24 -!- danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:20:24 -!- shardz [~samantha@ilo.staticfree.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:20:24 -!- foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:20:24 -!- Zuchto [~zuchto@li305-238.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:20:24 -!- cky [~cky@fsf/member/cky] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:20:24 -!- finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:20:58 and the problem is the "finite composition of arithmetic operators" clause 01:21:08 TIL 01:21:43 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:21:43 hiroaki_ [~hiroaki@p5B04A3DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 01:21:43 copec [~copec@166-70-136-61.ip.unaen.org] has joined #scheme 01:21:43 danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 01:21:43 shardz [~samantha@ilo.staticfree.info] has joined #scheme 01:21:43 foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 01:21:43 Zuchto [~zuchto@li305-238.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 01:21:43 cky [~cky@fsf/member/cky] has joined #scheme 01:21:43 finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has joined #scheme 01:22:10 actually, I think I may see a way to come up with a more precise definition. 01:22:41 I'll work on it. 01:23:27 ijp: nan is not a number. 01:23:42 eli: number? disagrees :P 01:23:52 rudybot: (number? +nan.0) 01:23:52 ijp: your sandbox is ready 01:23:53 ijp: ; Value: #t 01:24:35 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 01:24:42 ijp: The fact that something that is not a number was made into a number leads large parts of the world's sanity into a nearby sewer. 01:24:59 indeed 01:25:15 At the most simple level, you can see how it would sound if you'd explain that to some non-hacker... 01:25:24 "nan" stands for not a number 01:25:36 (number? +nan.0) returns true 01:25:56 That's because +nan.0 is nan, the not-a-number thing that was made into a number. 01:26:51 inexact arithmetic is a messy business, but having recently looked rather deeply into it (reading lots of Kahan's writings), I now understand that there is no way to do it right, and that the choices they made are quite reasonable. 01:27:17 Yes, it's messy. 01:27:33 But no, the mess with nan has nothing to do with any arithmetics. 01:27:38 It's a logical flaw. 01:28:09 eli: what would you propose? 01:28:17 Take any domain, take an element that is spelled "I am not part of this domain", and you get the same mess. 01:28:32 (When it's added to the domain.) 01:28:56 mark_weaver: as a PL person, exceptions are always better. 01:29:36 See for example NULL in C: it's a pointer that is not a pointer, and a similar kind of mess ensues. 01:30:19 eli: exceptions aside, nan is "just" an option type. Would you apply this reasoning to say Maybe in Haskell? 01:30:38 Take any random piece of code that deals with functions that returns a pointer or NULL, and there's probably a >80% chance that the code doesn't check the result. 01:30:43 efficiency concerns must be taken into account, or else your proposals will not be used and become irrelevant. 01:31:24 mark_weaver: That's a classic statement that a numerical analyst will say; and it's the opposite of the classic statement that a logician or a PL person would say. 01:31:53 ijp: It's kind of similar -- a hack that is intended to silently propagate out a situation that should actually be considered an error. 01:33:18 And the mess is made much larger by the fact that not only you need to figure out the rules around nan, but in addition you're making language designers have an extra question of whether to signal an error by returning a nan or by throwing an exception, and also what is it that you need to do when you see a nan in a context that requires a ... you know, number. 01:33:37 eli: I agree with most of your positions within certain contexts. However, you seem to think that your way of thinking is appropriate in _every_ context. 01:34:04 mark_weaver: Yes I do, and I consider any *sane* person to have the same. 01:34:27 Ie, take any person whose opinion is not skewed by some "optimization consideration" 01:34:49 Explain that "nan stands for not-a-number" and explain that it's a number. 01:34:55 Your proposals would never have ended up in things like mainstream microprocessors, arianne rockets, etc. at least Kahan made a very substantial improvement to how many practical devices behave, and he couldn't have accomplished that without making compromises that you poo-poo. 01:35:04 A logical person would immediately diagnose you as delirious. 01:35:27 I agree that it's a dumb name. I'm not interested in debating the name. 01:36:39 The name is not the issue; the practical considerations I don't poo-poo; and certainly there should be no talk of missiles and such since IIRC the famous page that describes famous FP-related bugs is full of missiles and planes exploding in all kinds of stupid ways. 01:37:12 -!- IMPHASING is now known as imphasing 01:37:25 ijp : it's not an option type 01:37:26 -!- creep [~afcbef666@2a01:270:dd00:7700:404:dead:beef:cafe] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:39:28 maybe not strictly, I'm not a type theorist. But Null/NaN/Nothing/eof-object all play broadly similar roles. 01:40:43 except that they suffer from domain contagion, which option types doesn't 01:42:34 iow, if `lookup key alist' yields `Nothing', then you know no association from `key' was found in `alist' -- instead of perhaps `Nothing' being the value associated with `key' in `alist' 01:42:37 fine, s/option type/nullable object/ 01:43:12 (see the 2006-02-03 entry at ) 01:43:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.28.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:43:29 the pattern remains 01:45:16 i'm not sure it does 01:46:11 given that we're talking about e.g. strings, `Nothing' is not somehow "a string that isn't a string" 01:46:16 it's a `Maybe String' 01:46:41 (but perhaps i misunderstood what you meant) 01:47:09 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-51-49.gmavt.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:47:17 I'm saying, is his problem with all distinguished error values, or just NaN 01:49:51 afaiu, his problem was with pretending the distinguished error values are part of the original domain 01:53:51 ijp: "Nothing" and "eof-object" are not the same, since they're not error values 01:54:20 For READ, #!EOF is like NaN and NULL. 01:54:21 NULL wasn't the same either, until it was used to signal errors by functions that are expected to return pointers, and even then it's a little better since it doesn't make sense as a pointer when you get such a result. 01:54:49 NULL sometimes makes works as a pointer even if the first page of memory is unmapped... 01:55:00 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 01:55:33 Riastradh: For #!eof and `read' yes, it's the same, and see how people resist adding that for the same reasons... 01:55:38 (Consider a 5000-byte `struct foo' with some member m past the 4096th byte; then ((struct foo *)NULL)->m can have exciting consequences.) 01:56:10 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 01:56:16 (That goes for the concept of "types" as C defines them...) 01:56:46 (For example, it can have the consequences of thousands of administrators losing sleep over a rushed upgrade of Linux to patch a remote root exploit.) 01:57:29 -!- ijp [~user@host109-151-48-9.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:57:49 I'd argue that if those sysadmins are really losing sleep then they're not proper sysadmins. 01:58:20 ijp [~user@host109-151-48-9.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 02:02:42 Well, it can have lots of other exciting consequences too. 02:05:11 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-51-49.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 02:07:48 arthurmaciel [~AndChat24@177.28.193.26] has joined #scheme 02:08:10 Hello 02:08:35 For example, it can have the consequence that Iran's nuclear enrichment program is set back by six months. 02:09:18 C, making things exciting since\nsegmentation fault (core dumped) 02:09:33 Riastradh: was that 5000byte struct remark one from experience? 02:09:59 Guys, I'm studying a bit about Haskell to understand more of functional programming. But I can't get why their sake for purity. Is impurity evil? 02:10:05 hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has joined #scheme 02:10:06 yes 02:10:13 I don't know whether exactly that such bug set Iran's uranium enrichment program back by six months. 02:10:21 -!- ASau [~user@37-144-27-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:02 ASau [~user@37-144-27-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 02:11:24 ijp: could you explain me why please? 02:11:50 arthurmaciel, it's easier to prove things about a program if you don't have to worry about what time it is. 02:13:37 astertronistic [~astertron@ip70-181-247-103.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:51 Riastradh: but is it good to separate pure from impure code in scheme as they do in Haskell? 02:14:38 (Indeed I'm interested in improving Scheme my good practice) 02:14:41 Does it make your programs easier to reason about? 02:15:27 Not necessarily 02:15:43 arthurmaciel: okay, impurity isn't inherently evil. However, as obvious as it sounds, if things stay the same, I don't need to worry about them changing behind my back, as is often the case in imperative code 02:17:39 ijp: it really sounds good but in scheme I see all the time output, file io, db access, etc. in the middle of pure code. 02:18:04 So it's not a schemers practice huh? 02:18:24 if it's in the middle of pure code, then the code isn't pure 02:19:44 Yes, those parts mentioned make the code impure. But they could be set apart and are not. Do you get what I mean? 02:22:47 Maybe the code you're reading isn't very good. 02:23:58 If you read a lot of code, and try to prove things about it, and find counterexamples to the theorems you try to prove, and find bugs whose symptoms you've elicited, and so on, you'll start to get a sense of what makes code easy to understand the intent of and easy to reason about the properties of. 02:24:57 BossKonaSegwaY1 [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:25:33 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-215-92.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:25:40 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:28 Riastradh: what do you mean by prove things about code. I'm probably not grasping what you mean by that. 02:29:54 Well, what's a bug? 02:33:32 Is an undesirable and unpredictable behaviour of a program. 02:34:40 Someone says they've found a bug in your program -- some way to run it so that it crashes. You look into how that happened, and you realize that you made a mistake and you need to change the program a little bit to avoid that case. 02:39:22 So your advice is to program the way I believe is good and if I face problems caused by impure code I should separate pure from impure? 02:40:23 realitygrill [~realitygr@209-6-30-187.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:41:46 Now you want to show that the program as you've modified it won't behave that way again. How do you get confidence that it won't? 02:42:42 Well, the issue with imperative code is that when you're looking at some particular fragment of it, you need to know not only what the values of all the relevant variables are, but also what time of day it is in order to know how the fragment will behave. With functional code, you don't need to know what time of day it is. 02:44:55 So in particular you avoid set! at all cost? 02:47:07 I'm not saying you should avoid anything at all costs! You should understand what the costs are, by reading lots of code, and trying to rewrite it in different ways. 02:47:18 (although SET! should indeed be avoided and should have been omitted from the language, but not merely because it's imperative) 02:48:12 confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #scheme 02:51:16 -!- sambio_ [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 02:52:17 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 02:56:03 Riastradh, thanks! I'll read more code and do this exercise. 02:56:20 Find some code you don't understand and rewrite it so you do understand it. 02:56:39 Find some code you think you do understand, and then find some bugs in it. 02:59:25 Riastradh: I don't see a problem with SET! for non-toplevel variables. It's the only kind of mutation in Scheme that you needn't pay for if you don't use it, because the compiler can easily tell that a non-toplevel variable cannot be SET!. 03:00:28 it should be able to do it for toplevel variables too, if you don't have "open" modules, no? 03:01:09 well, assuming immutable imports/exports 03:01:23 Because of this, in Scheme, closures can be used to create records with both mutable and immutable fields, without adding any explicit mechanism for labelling fields as mutable or immutable. 03:02:23 ijp: true 03:02:40 SET! is the most confusing part of Scheme. The only kind of mutable location not associated with a first-class object in Scheme is variable locations, and this trips up novices all the time for no good reason. 03:02:46 The most confusing part of Scheme for novices, I mean. 03:03:46 I've seen a number of people on here confused over SET!ing function arguments in particular 03:04:29 Fair enough, I can see the potential for confusion. 03:05:24 I like ML's approach: a single mutable reference type, and everything else is immutable. 03:06:06 You mean SML's approach, I presume. OCaml's is different. 03:06:08 though I guess practicality might argue for a mutable vector type as well. 03:06:19 Right, SML. 03:08:57 Mutable pairs are a very serious problem for compiler implementors. 03:09:18 (those who hope to produce fast code, anyway) 03:10:14 Does anyone know of an R6RS implementation that supports #!fold-case and #!no-fold-case ? 03:11:15 racket, maybe? 03:11:29 I think Ikarus might have 03:11:45 ijp: Those are the two I've tried so far, but they don't seem to work. 03:12:18 But maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'm not very familiar with those implementations. 03:13:07 my ikarus knowledge is rusty at this point, I'm probably misremembering 03:16:32 Well, chibi handles it, so at least I have another impl to compare with. 03:31:52 Goodnight! 03:31:56 -!- arthurmaciel [~AndChat24@177.28.193.26] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:35:19 foof: Nice job on chibi, btw. In this age of absurdly inefficient memory hogs, it's refreshing to use such a fast and light system. Bravo! 03:39:28 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:41:38 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:47:02 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 03:48:21 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@209-6-30-187.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 03:54:24 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:54:28 -!- BossKonaSegwaY1 [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:59:02 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-64-68.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:06:23 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:10:47 adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:10:54 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-199.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 04:16:19 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:34:23 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:36:58 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:41:30 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:44:49 creep [~afcbef666@2a01:270:dd00:7700:404:dead:beef:cafe] has joined #scheme 04:51:27 -!- nightfly_ [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 04:54:17 wtf is this racket makeinstall? 04:54:32 it used 2.3GB memory and hogged all system resources 04:55:10 *ijp* places $2 on this being related to scribble 04:55:14 nightfly_ [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #scheme 04:55:23 yeah i saw many scribble stuff printed 04:55:44 is that some replacement for flash and java crap? 04:56:21 it's documentation believe it or not 04:56:27 ahh 04:56:38 and why does documentation eat that much memory? 04:56:44 and 100% cpu 04:56:52 I don't know, and I'm not entirely sure I want to 04:56:59 ;/ 04:57:10 i'd be fine with a textfile, really 04:58:37 started one executable and could not make it quit so i killed it 04:58:55 tried q, quit, exit, controlc 04:59:51 so it works, probably, who wants to exit anyway 05:01:00 *jrslepak* thinks it might be a good idea for the standard racket install to skip rendering the docs 05:01:01 my first code working 05:01:03 > (+ 23 42) 05:01:03 65 05:01:07 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:01:10 yea 05:01:24 the docs are really nice though 05:01:33 but they're available online 05:02:03 so having a local copy probably isn't all that critical 05:02:20 can you go to history somehow? i used to press up arrow in console to modify the last entered command 05:02:30 ctrl up 05:02:34 ty 05:03:01 racketcgc fails to go up in history... hmm oh well 05:03:11 no modifier helps 05:03:30 > ""^[[D^[[D^[[C 05:03:42 i press the arrowkeys and i get these codes 05:03:50 (you may find #racket a better place to ask racket-specific questions, though a lot of the regulars there are also here) 05:04:01 can't even go back left to modify the current command 05:04:13 okey 05:04:20 what executable are you running? 05:04:32 i'll dump bugreport there 05:04:41 $ ./racketcgc 05:05:15 why? 05:06:25 is it extraordinary to use left arrowkey to go left and add a letter, or rewrite my command line? 05:06:48 i made this 12 years ago in asm 05:07:09 it is out of the ordinary to use racketcgc 05:07:17 i see 05:07:31 just wanted to test out some things 05:08:12 at least to see if it works on my system 05:08:23 what things? 05:08:55 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:55 mmc2 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 05:09:08 currently this: > (* 12 33) 05:09:28 now i don't know what i did 05:09:36 > (fact 10) 05:09:39 nothing happens 05:09:40 why are you using the cgc version though? 05:10:28 just picked a random choice from the 3 05:11:09 there is a racket3m and a starter next to it 05:11:11 generally speaking, I'd recommend taking the default unless you have particular reason not to ¬_¬ 05:12:24 i have no idea what you call default 05:12:31 seriously 05:12:41 what exactly did you download? 05:12:49 the source 05:12:54 then compiled it 05:13:02 which source? 05:13:23 racket-5.3-src-unix.tgz 05:15:18 nahm started drracket now 05:16:34 *jrslepak* does not remember the regular build process creating an executable for each GC option 05:16:35 wow this even has a text editor gui, haskell can hide 05:23:22 (define (sqr x) (* x x)) (sqr (sqr (sqr (sqr -2)))) 05:29:43 replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-136.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 05:29:55 -!- replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-136.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:40 found a useful documentation http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-4.html 05:33:19 creep: After you've built it, there should be a `bin' directory, with a `racket' executable. 05:33:48 eli<< yeah i already started drracket and testing some codes 05:33:51 (Incidentally, this executable is the same as `racket3m', which is why jrslepak asked you about your choice.) 05:34:20 don't know, that 3m sounded odd 05:34:22 Also, if you want command-line editing on a linux terminal, then you can do a (require xrepl). 05:35:21 "3m" stands for "movable memory manager" which is the exact GC version; "CGC" is the conservative GC which is used for bootstrapping the build, and it is otherwise considered a bad choice for real work. 05:35:31 i would be interested in input methods, and graphic displaying 05:35:51 In that case working with drracket should be fine. 05:36:45 ijp: Much of the workload of building the docs comes from dealing with the cross referencing (there's obviously a huge amount of stuff to consider); another good chunk is from the examples, since they're evaluated in sandboxes which tend to be expensive to setup. 05:36:54 (not the lame circle and checkerboard display stuff) 05:37:20 ijp: And I hope that at some point we'll get to distribute without the docs and have most people use the on-line version instead. 05:37:29 eli: I figured it was the cross checking, since it takes a while when you install packages from planet 05:37:32 creep: I don't know what you mean by that. 05:37:32 (or at least used to) 05:37:53 ijp: Yeah, the large delay when installing planet packages is for rebuilding the local index. 05:38:22 eli<< a few hours ago i was reading some documentation i quoted above 05:38:29 There's another problem there -- that the require leads to silent building of the package (+ the docs), and that takes a long enough time that many people think that it's dead. 05:39:35 creep: I don't see any mention of "circle" or "checker"... 05:40:30 creep: (BTW, 2.3gb sounds way too high, and several hours definitely sounds very unusal.) 05:41:22 ah sorry, other chan 05:41:24 [004057] http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html - these examples are pretty lame and useless 05:41:53 creep: Yeah -- they're intended as a quick introduction for newbies. 05:42:01 eli<< that was because if ram gets used up, system gets thrashed and uses swap 05:42:24 Yes, thrashing would do it -- but the 2.3gb sound unusal too. 05:42:36 okey, use 512MB, but 2.3GB ? 05:42:48 Usually it should be around 700mb. 05:42:48 ;/ 05:42:59 How many cores do you have? And how much RAM? 05:43:24 1, 1GB 05:43:35 BTW, if you're looking for something more "hard core" and less fluffy than the graphics: http://docs.racket-lang.org/more/ 05:43:39 this is a simple computer 05:43:55 That would get to to put together all the bits to build a web server from scratch. 05:43:55 thanks 05:43:58 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:44:08 Re the RAM/cores -- that looks very weird then. 05:44:33 The build starts one job for each core, so I thought that you might have lots of cores and little RAM. 05:44:47 2.2GHz amd64 in case interested, fair performance 05:45:09 The 2.3gb sounds like something went wrong. 05:45:15 This is without planet packages? 05:45:31 does 90MB/s sha512sum from hdd at 45% cpu usage 05:45:47 just compiled from src, i did nothing unusual 05:46:35 mark_weaver, Riastradh: The (Oca)ML approach is roughly what you get in racket without using `set!' (so just boxes and mutable struct fields), but at some point there was a discussion of a specific point in favor of `set!' over boxes: you can write code that can't "leak out" the option of mutation, whereas with boxes you can make a mistake and make the box end up in the wrong hands. 05:47:01 creep: What's your OS? 05:47:13 eli<< well i could think about it started to make 16 threads for itself, i don't know 05:47:39 eli: I think that's a fair point re: boxes 05:47:59 Linux localhost 3.4.9-rt17 #3 SMP PREEMPT RT Tue Aug 28 09:50:26 CEST 2012 x86_64 GNU/Linux 05:48:42 creep: That rules out Windows stupidites then. 05:48:45 Scientific Linux 6, with XFCE, and new custom realtime kernel 05:49:05 creep: Try this: (require racket/future) (processor-count) 05:49:15 That would tell you how many cores it thinks you have 05:49:47 ijp: Yeah, I certainly didn't think that `set!' could have a highlevel advantage... 05:50:26 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 05:50:47 eli<< i found a bug now ;/ 05:50:57 pasted your stuff into drracket and it hung 05:51:31 creep: It did?? That's very odd. 05:51:38 Try it on a commandline? 05:52:13 selected the error, mouse right clicked 05:52:27 and it went into busy, nonresponding 05:52:31 require: undefined; 05:52:31 cannot reference undefined identifier 05:52:41 but regained control now 05:52:43 hmm 05:52:47 Ah, that's something else, you're working in the wrong language. 05:52:53 used the copy from the menu 05:53:01 Hit Ctrl+L, then have the top radio button checked 05:53:13 Something like "detect language in source code". 05:53:29 If you want to try the command line, then just run this: racket -lle racket racket/future "(processor-count)" 05:53:53 Module Language: there can only be one expression in the definitions window in: (processor-count) 05:53:53 Interactions disabled. 05:53:57 cool now? 05:54:29 eli<< yeah it complained about no language selected, so i set r6... 05:55:12 creep: Put a "#lang racket" at the top. 05:55:40 hmm, bash can guess i want bash 05:55:46 now it writes 1 05:56:10 Well, bash is a language and that's it. Racket makes new languages easy to write, and we have a whole pile of them. 05:56:25 In any case, if it writes 1, then it thinks that you have a single core. 05:56:33 So I don't know what would make it use so much ram. 05:57:24 concurrent compilations can do that 05:58:14 That's why I asked you to do that -- it knows that you have one core, so it wouldn't try to start a few jobs. 05:58:15 well, haskell was eating 800MB+ for a simple test code, hopefully racket is less hungry 05:58:49 Well, I can tell you that at least at the newbie stage you can easily get it to swallow your ram and ask for more... 05:59:12 i see there is a memory usage limit, that is clever 05:59:17 And BTW, DrRacket can be very hungry for ram sometimes -- a 1gb system might be hard to make it happy. 05:59:18 currently at 128MB 05:59:42 i'm not planning to go over it for now... 05:59:54 Note that the memory usage limit is only for the REPL; the rest of DrRacket (or additional REPLs in other tabs) can still grab their own memory. 06:00:13 This is why even with that memory limit set, DrRacket will still actually use much more. 06:00:42 It's basically a safety mechanism that will make code that leaks memory in some way stop with an error instead of bringing the whole process (or the whole system) down. 06:00:44 hiroaki__ [~hiroaki@p5B04ACEF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:01:03 it is possible to make infinite stuff eat up all memory... 06:01:14 as with C, or whatever 06:01:18 Sure, it's easy. 06:01:26 rudybot: (define (loop) (cons 1 (loop))) 06:01:27 eli: your sandbox is ready 06:01:27 eli: Done. 06:01:31 rudybot: (loop) 06:01:32 eli: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory) 06:01:39 :) 06:01:48 The bot uses the same feature for the same purpose. 06:03:25 so i was assuming i can mouse rightclick for a local menu and hit copy there 06:04:03 do you know of any real software written in scheme? not just hack some stuff quickly to compute homework type 06:04:36 -!- hiroaki_ [~hiroaki@p5B04A3DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:04:42 There should be a context menu that would allow you to copy selected text... 06:04:56 Re software -- what are you looking for? 06:05:08 We do have a bunch of people that do all kinds of stuff with it. 06:05:22 DrRacket itself is a nice example. Very impressive. 06:05:30 If you want just readline support in racket, evaluate (require readline), instead, and then use (install-readline!) 06:05:34 i found this sad 06:05:53 tupi recently wrote a time tracking application in guile called kise 06:05:55 creep: Try (require xrepl) -- it gives you more. 06:05:56 i wrote a readline magic function 12 years ago in asm 06:06:01 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:06:15 creep: And the fact that it's not on by default is due to the GPL license of readline. 06:06:26 i don't think these things should be left out 06:06:30 eli: could you not use linenoise or something similar? 06:06:39 Making it be there by default would be very easy. 06:07:11 ijp: I looked into editline at some point -- but it wasn't a similar interface, and it didn't look like it's nearly as popular as readline. 06:07:32 if you want your own license just write a readline code lol. 06:07:34 I don't know about linenoise, but the popularity problem is likely to be the same. 06:07:40 mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 06:07:52 creep: There was actually some code for a readline implementation in Scheme... 06:08:02 it gets used in android, so that's at least one big user of it :) 06:08:39 creep: The thing is that writing something that works for your own case is extremely easy -- but doing something proper is a *huge* project. (Just terminfo is a huge thing in itself...) 06:08:42 write readline in scheme 06:08:44 and it's only a couple hundred line C file (or was anyway) 06:09:12 it would work, nobody can write that much on keyboard that needs C 06:09:32 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 06:09:46 masm [~masm@46.50.83.211] has joined #scheme 06:10:18 creep: If you really want, I can find the guy that worked on that... IIRC, he invested a few months of work, and got somewhere around 50% of a fully functional library. 06:10:22 the simplest things are the hardest? ;) 06:10:57 start at the beginning 06:11:24 creep: from the linenoise page which I'm readin now: But apparently code dealing with terminals is some sort of Black Magic 06:11:44 And that's indeed my experience -- terminals are a huge mess. 06:12:13 mc has some bugs too with the hidden terminal control-o thing for example 06:12:48 creep: But there is certainly no objection to have something that works for most cases and that can be there by default. If you hack something I can guarantee that many people will be pretty damn happy abuot it. 06:13:10 ok we'll see 06:13:26 the drracket thing looks good 06:13:53 but the save as source should have appended some extension i think 06:14:05 and the create execuatable would make without extension then 06:14:19 there would be no need to ask filename 06:15:20 ijp: The readme file looks promising; the size is pretty impressive (60 lines for the .h and 600 for the .c) -- enough that it would even be easy to translate to racket 06:15:48 But my guess is that it's something that works only on some basic vt100 and/or xterm thing. 06:17:18 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:17:19 ijp: Also, looking at the commit history, it sounds like it is indeed very basic -- nothing happened for about a year, and recently there was a merge of a C-w functionality. 06:17:35 One feature that is very needed (and likely not be present in this) is paren matching. 06:17:51 it isn't present IIRC, no 06:18:40 pretty basic but that's all that's needed by most programs 06:18:47 #lang R5RS 06:18:54 doesn't work, what did i miss? 06:20:47 ijp: No home/end (but it does have C-a/C-e); C-left/C-right insert the letters instead of at least ignoring it; and a major minus: works on a single line only. 06:21:00 So it looks like a major step down from readline. 06:21:34 creep: It should be "#lang r5rs" in lowercase, but why do you want to use that? 06:21:47 yeah, functionality-wise readline wins hands down 06:22:01 eli<< i have no preference yet 06:22:34 ijp: It could be an option if it had a few less features, but this looks like some major things are not there... 06:22:38 ah ok, works as lowercase, but the control l menu writes it uppercase, confusing 06:22:54 does it need to be case sensitive anyway? 06:23:14 will there be r5Rs and r5rS too? 06:23:19 creep: Just leave the language as the from-source thing, and don't change it. (The R5RS language in the menu is to avoid the #lang line, which you really don't need.) 06:23:47 ok but i didn't know how to set it 06:23:49 But in any case, the r5rs language (either way) is a strict one, which means that it's very minimal and you won't be able to do real work in it. 06:23:56 so clicked one 06:24:06 So if you're looking to get things done, just use the default "#lang racket". 06:24:13 the editor could have inserted this line on the top of my source lol 06:24:38 lolski [~mark@112.202.10.64] has joined #scheme 06:25:00 It should do that, but you chose the wrong language and then modified the contents of the buffer, so it makes the conservate choice and doesn't change your text... 06:25:31 eli: I just put it out there since I don't like that the choice is usually readline or nothing, but if it isn't up to scratch for you, it isn't up to scratch 06:27:05 creep: I'll submit a feature request to improve the error message... 06:27:35 eli<< what error message? 06:27:38 -!- lolski [~mark@112.202.10.64] has left #scheme 06:27:49 adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:28:50 eli<< actually i can do work in ASM, and C too 06:29:47 and used to do some quickhacks using bash 06:30:44 wingo [~wingo@132-117.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 06:33:54 creep: this error: "there can only be one expression in the definitions window" 06:34:08 It would be much more helpful if it told you to write the #lang line. 06:34:48 ijp: Yeah, it's good to know about it. Maybe some day things will get better. 06:35:03 I definitely would love to some some replacement without the obnoxious GPL attached. 06:36:02 eli: IIRC Haskell made their own under BSD for that very reason. 06:36:48 Oh, but that's actually written in Haskell, so nevermind. 06:37:00 asumu: Maybe it's translatable? 06:37:22 eli: Ah, there's editline. 06:37:31 See above. 06:37:33 asumu: Oh, readline. 06:37:38 I thought you were talking about GMP. :-( 06:37:57 I have nothing against the gpl per se, but in readlines case it has been very counterproductive 06:40:02 ijp: I actually do have something against it, as someone who had to rehack a big project because of it... 06:40:03 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:39 jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-96.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:40:57 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 06:41:54 out of curiosity, what sort of project? 06:42:25 Our ffi... 06:43:58 -!- ComradeBlack [~ComradeBl@unaffiliated/comradeblack] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:51:07 ComradeBlack [~ComradeBl@unaffiliated/comradeblack] has joined #scheme 06:53:52 GNU CLISP became free software only because Bruno Haible wanted to use readline. 06:54:12 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:54:19 ditto for Apple's implementation of objective C for GCC 06:55:48 and the GPL prevents free programs from being turned into non-free programs by someone making a non-free fork that becomes more popular. 06:56:48 mark_weaver: that's a fair point, however, in the case of readline, I have stopped counting the number of projects that don't include it by default due to licensing issues 06:57:56 I'm not sure how free software is benefiting from a collective effort to work around the gpl in this case 06:59:12 and there are non-gpl copyleft licenses for the fork issue 06:59:30 It may be that it would make sense to relicense readline under the LGPL now, I dunno, I haven't really thought it through. I was mostly responding to eli's diss of the GNU GPL in general. 07:04:57 I confess I don't really care whether a program has readline or not, because I run everything within emacs :) 07:06:53 mark_weaver: My problem with it is something that is extremely relevant in the readline case -- it's getting to be an epidemic of wasted efforts that it has caused. 07:07:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.131] has joined #scheme 07:07:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.131] has quit [Changing host] 07:07:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 07:08:27 *mark_weaver* is reading the discussions leading to the creation of R3RS. debates over how internal defines should be handled, over the meaning of eqv?, whether (define (foo ...) ...) should mean (define foo (lambda (...) ...)) or (define foo (letrec ((foo (lambda (...) ...))) foo)), etc. fascinating stuff. 07:09:34 http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-mail/rrrs.mail05.gz 07:11:51 eli: I care more about the preservation of freedom for computer users than about wasted efforts. 07:13:00 I don't like wasted efforts, but if the GNU GPL was not widely used, I suspect the computing world would be a far worse place overall. 07:13:49 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:18:23 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-96.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:20:38 mark_weaver: IMO LGPL is just as effective in terms of contributing to software freedom, only without the fanatic overtones. 07:22:20 That's simply false. If readline was LGPL, we wouldn't have a free GNU CLISP. If GCC was LGPL, we wouldn't have free objective-C. 07:23:26 If GCC was LGPL we'd also arguably not have LLVM :P 07:23:41 whether or not this is a positive or a negative I leave to the reader 07:25:46 The only problem with LLVM is that it is not copyleft. If GCC was not copyleft, then the negative aspects of LLVM would have already been with us a long time ago. 07:26:06 probably 07:27:29 LLVM means that in the future, we will probably not get more free language front-ends that companies want to keep proprietary. 07:27:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-2.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:27:55 At least GCC delayed that long enough for us to get a free Objective-C. 07:28:19 (and lots of other contributions to make GCC as good as it is today) 07:34:35 mark_weaver: any particular reason why you're reading about rrrs instead of any of the other reports? 07:35:59 hkBst: I'm trying to formulate a good definition for 'eqv?' based on operational equivalence for the R7RS, and I wanted to read earlier discussions on that topic. 07:36:40 I thought that R6RS got it right, but foof recently discovered that the R6RS definition is fatally flawed. 07:36:51 fatally? 07:37:31 No two inexact numbers are ever 'eqv?', according to the definition in the R6RS. 07:37:40 well, they are and they aren't 07:37:53 it would meet both criteria, no? 07:38:14 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 07:38:19 ijp: I don't follow. 07:38:57 oh no, my mistake 07:39:45 wingo: quoting foof: "the definition requires the transitive closure of operations to be =" 07:39:48 wingo: quoth the r6rs: "The eqv? procedure returns #t if one of the following holds: .... Obj1 and obj2 are both inexactnumber objects, are numerically equal (see =, section 11.7), and yield the same results (in the sense of eqv?) when passed as arguments to any other procedure that can be defined as a finite composition of Schemes standard arithmetic procedures." 07:39:54 "but with functions like (lambda (x) (/ (* x 0.0) 0.0)) it's trivial to make put +nan.0 into the closure" 07:39:59 "and (= +nan.0 +nan.0) => #f" 07:40:35 i see :) 07:41:05 mark_weaver: my confusion arose in that I thought that the finite composition clause was only in the second part of the eqv? definition, not the first part 07:42:39 R3RS is the only other scheme standard that explicitly used the idea of operational equivalence to define 'eqv?'. 07:43:00 and they used that idea to define it for all data types, not just numbers. 07:43:42 Will Clinger also uses similar language to define 'eqv?' in SRFI-85 (though he writes "more or less") 07:44:36 for the record, it is not fixed in the r6rs errata either, though I'm sure foof checked there first 07:45:24 isn't it insane to specify (= +nan.0 +nan.0) => #f ? 07:45:28 It seems clear to me that operational equivalence is the right concept for 'eqv?', but apparently it is notoriously hard to rigorously define the notion. 07:45:54 hkBst: nan is pretty insane anyway... 07:45:56 which might be why they dropped that language in R4RS 07:47:58 anyway the behaviour of = for nan isn't really the issue here, it's the behaviour for eqv? 07:48:03 which is unspecified 07:48:04 In SRFI-85, Will Clinger wrote: "x and y are equivalent if and only if they cannot be distinguished using any finite number of calls to R5RS procedures excluding eq?, eqv?, and procedures defined using eq? and eqv?. (This is eqv?, more or less.)" 07:48:22 I don't see why the definition for 'eqv?' should be referring to '=' at all. 07:48:29 ijp: but eqv? is defined in terms of (broken) = 07:48:38 hkBst: yes, but not in the nan case 07:48:56 (eqv? +nan.0 +nan.0)  unspecified 07:49:22 hkBst: I'm not so sure the behavior of '=' is broken. You ought to read a lot of Kahan and understand the rationale behind IEEE-754 before you jump to conclusions about such things. 07:50:05 hkBst: for many years I felt as you do now, but having delved rather deeply into the topic recently, I now feel differently. 07:50:43 it's explicitly mentioned so this would take precedence over the case for inexact numbers (which nan also is) 07:52:01 so, from a weasely point of view, I would say it is portably broken, if not fully so 07:52:41 i.e. allowed to be broken or not 07:53:42 a strict reading of the standard suggests that you can never count on 'eqv?' returning true for inexact numbers. 07:53:55 "And now, down to ijp for the opinion of the weasel on the street" 07:54:05 not even for the case of (let ((x )) (eqv? x x)) 07:54:25 wingo: times are bad for the weasel population, due to flooding and our severe shortage of ladders 07:54:38 hehehe 07:56:20 on the other hand, putting my more practical hat on, I have complete confidence that a R6RS implementation of 'eqv?' will do the right thing, whereas I cannot say the same for any other scheme standard. 07:57:23 so it's both the best definition of 'eqv?' for numbers ever written, and the worst :) 07:58:07 how does Baker's egal treat numbers in this case? 07:58:13 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:00:19 mark_weaver: any pointers to stuff that explains why (= +nan.0 +nan.0) => #f could be sane? 08:01:12 the obvious answer (though probably wrong) would be that, as it is not a number, = doesn't make sense for it :) 08:01:49 ijp: reading the egal paper now, I see that he explicitly compares both the sign and the value for floating-point numbers. In other words, he makes sure that (eqal +0.0 -0.0) => nil 08:03:13 he doesn't talk about NaNs at all, nor handle them specially. looks like (egal +nan.0 +nan.0) => nil 08:03:14 hmm, it falls back to the CL definition of = for floats 08:04:02 though I do note he calls -0.0 an algebraic abomination 08:04:07 the nan case is not as important, though my personal preference would be for (let ((x +nan.0)) (eqv? x x)) => #true 08:05:18 yeah, well, I thought that very strongly a few months ago myself. The computing world is full of smart folks (even smart folks good at math) who have never taken the time to understand the rationale behind IEEE-754. 08:08:10 ijp: for floats, (egal x y) becomes (and (= (float-sign x) (float-sign y)) (= x y)) 08:11:03 What I didn't understand until recently was that inexact math is an abomination no matter what you do. You can't avoid it. But there are some ways of dealing with it that are worse than others, and although it's far from obvious, there's a lot of wisdom behind the choices of IEEE-754. 08:15:07 *mark_weaver* --> zzz 08:15:10 -!- mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:24:02 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:25 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 08:24:33 mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 08:25:07 hkBst: sorry, I just noticed that you asked me for a pointer about NaN comparisons. I didn't mean to ignore you, I just didn't see it. 08:25:39 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1565164/what-is-the-rationale-for-all-comparisons-returning-false-for-ieee754-nan-values 08:25:39 http://tinyurl.com/9u3a5fd 08:26:56 the first answer given there is pretty good. but I would just add that since NaN is not a number, but really a marker that some error happened in the computation leading up to it, the fact that two NaNs have the same bit pattern does not imply that the values are mathematically equal. 08:28:25 as for why to report NaNs instead of raising an exception, that's mainly due to efficiency requirements. 08:28:51 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #scheme 08:28:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 08:28:51 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 08:29:42 okay, now I must sleep... 08:29:45 -!- mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:30:58 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:31:55 a shame this isn't #emacs, or we could've had the bot supply sedatives... 09:19:59 -!- astertronistic [~astertron@ip70-181-247-103.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:31:50 wow, everyone's out on #scheme today 09:34:15 are there no bots here? 09:34:52 -!- masm [~masm@46.50.83.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:35:38 rudybot: you're not a bot, right?? 09:35:39 ijp: then the bot is working :) 09:35:44 *ijp* nods 09:36:18 masm [~masm@95.69.96.112] has joined #scheme 09:42:37 ooh I am late to the party! 09:43:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:44:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.131] has joined #scheme 09:44:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.131] has quit [Changing host] 09:44:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 09:49:08 Sorella 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[~amoe@host-78-147-154-140.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 13:57:03 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:01:44 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #scheme 14:02:22 gabot: slap troydm (and rudybot) 14:02:22 *gabot* slaps troydm and rudybot 14:02:43 gabot: slap eli 14:02:43 *gabot* slaps eli 14:02:45 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:14 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 14:06:28 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #scheme 14:07:25 gabot: slap troydm four times in rythem 14:07:25 *gabot* slaps troydm four times in rythem 14:07:35 *eli* claps along 14:08:49 gabot: slap eli five time really hard 14:08:49 *gabot* slaps eli five time really hard 14:09:53 gabot: slap the whole world and their dog 14:09:53 *gabot* slaps the whole world and their dog 14:10:05 *eli* likes cats 14:11:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-138.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:11:29 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:11:43 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-136.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:13:21 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-135.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 14:16:22 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:16:37 Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 14:20:53 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:22:27 -!- merimus [merimus@nat/google/x-tfpljvsciekgrcul] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:22:35 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 14:23:00 carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:23:25 dzhus [~dzhus@95-31-27-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:26:17 gabot: Looks like you hurt the whole world -- apologize immediately. 14:26:17 eli: Huh? 14:29:39 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:33:20 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:36:30 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-149-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:38:46 hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:39:41 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 14:44:18 -!- Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Lämnar] 14:45:14 ijp<< i believe simple things like a readline should not be copyrighted in any way... 14:45:27 just let it be pirateware 14:47:11 replore [~replore@FLH1Abd153.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 14:50:28 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:50:33 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.75] has joined #scheme 14:54:38 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:55:12 gabot: slap eli around a bit with a large left parenthesis 14:55:12 *gabot* slaps eli around a bit with a large left parenthesis 15:02:03 ijp: should that gist ever not return second and first? https://gist.github.com/3905042 15:02:26 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:20 ijp: in a library 'top-level' though, in IronScheme, the mutation will probably not hold (obviously not exported) 15:04:28 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:51 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 15:07:37 mmc2 [~michal@178-85-68-252.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 15:39:58 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 15:43:45 grettke [~grettke@CPE-70-92-11-221.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:51:00 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-199.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:21 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined 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[~amgarchin@p4FD60A0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:36:40 ssbr [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has joined #scheme 17:37:54 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:45:14 confab [~confab@public-nat1.scc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 17:45:17 HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09a79a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 17:49:35 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:53:06 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:50 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #scheme 18:00:06 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:08:57 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:15:35 creep: please don't put words in my mouth 18:16:20 leppie: it should return 'second and 'first respectively 18:17:05 phao [~phao@rotsf.cpd.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 18:17:22 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 18:17:49 It was just an example of when an "extra" lambda isn't redundant 18:19:26 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:27:11 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.28.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:28:54 -!- phao [~phao@rotsf.cpd.ufv.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:29:23 phao [~phao@rotsf.cpd.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 18:29:49 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:33:56 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:33:57 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:40:43 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.75] has joined #scheme 18:46:21 atsidi [~nkraft_@184.75.210.42] has joined #scheme 18:46:47 -!- ssbr [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:47:27 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:33 -!- confab [~confab@public-nat1.scc.losrios.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:50:36 ssbr [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has joined #scheme 19:02:48 adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:10:54 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.157] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:15:34 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-96.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:17:37 -!- ssbr [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:20:20 -!- mmc2 [~michal@178-85-68-252.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:33:07 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.28.54] has joined #scheme 19:36:34 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@184.75.210.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 19:36:48 -!- replore [~replore@FLH1Abd153.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:06 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:59 SanderM [~quassel@195.169.216.170] has joined #scheme 19:39:45 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09a79a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:41:45 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-136.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:42:35 -!- hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:44:21 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-149-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:25 does chicken allow 'odd' syntax like this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12942127/scheme-define-a-function-with-arbitrary-arguments 19:49:26 http://tinyurl.com/co5co7y 19:52:48 leppie: yes, but the `.' doesn't seem to count. 19:53:17 (define (parent .) (list .)) 19:53:21 (parent) => () 19:53:29 (parent 1) => arity error 19:53:30 the error seems to imply it expects a single argument, which is even 'odder' 19:53:53 Oh, that's chicken! 19:54:15 hehe 19:55:46 -!- phao [~phao@rotsf.cpd.ufv.br] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 19:57:08 rudybot: () 19:57:10 leppie: your sandbox is ready 19:57:10 leppie: error: #:1:0: #%app: missing procedure expression; probably originally (), which is an illegal empty application in: (#%app) 19:57:21 rudybot: (define (parent . ()) (list . ())) 19:57:21 leppie: Done. 19:58:28 rudybot: (define (parent) (list . (1 2 3))) 19:58:28 leppie: Done. 19:58:35 rudybot: (parent) 19:58:36 leppie: ; Value: (1 2 3) 19:58:47 poor man's quoting \o/ 19:59:21 -!- hiroaki__ [~hiroaki@p5B04ACEF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:59:22 rudybot: (define (parent) (list . (a b c))) 19:59:22 leppie: Done. 20:00:00 Funny that people use stackoverflow to ask questions about chicken 20:00:18 scheme support is very good on StackOverflow 20:00:33 most questions are answered very well and quickly 20:00:46 Interesting 20:00:54 any ways, I learnt a new 'trick' tonite 20:11:07 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 20:13:49 hiroaki__ [~hiroaki@77-20-78-82-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:17:13 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:18:09 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 20:21:22 -!- wingo [~wingo@132-117.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:23:36 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:30:24 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:40 -!- b4283 [~b4283@114-47-4-111.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:28 hash_table 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