00:02:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 00:07:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:09:23 crundar [~Jason@99-108-224-199.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:10:59 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:14:23 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 00:18:17 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #scheme 00:20:30 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:14 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:19 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 00:30:26 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:37:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 00:39:11 so, i finally found a standalone scheme interpreter for windows that doesn't need to be installed 00:39:22 gauche scheme has one 00:42:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:42:45 hypnocat: biwascheme wasn't good enough for you? 00:42:55 it wouldn't run on my browser 00:42:59 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-149-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:43:05 plus, it required a browser to run 00:43:07 It works on any javascript browser. 00:43:10 What do you think "to install" means? 00:43:47 The only way to run a program on a computer system is to have it installed! 00:43:56 Unless it's in a browser javascript. 00:44:01 on windows, when you run an installer, it usually copies files to various windows directories and other directories on the c: drive 00:44:17 i need this to work on systems that don't allow that 00:44:17 And when you copy a .exe on your hard disk, you are installing it! 00:44:24 not in the same sense 00:44:32 It's exactly the same. 00:44:45 on windows there's a concept of "portable" executables, which can be run from the directory they reside in 00:44:54 There's a program that create a file named .exe and copy in it the bytes of the program being installed. 00:44:55 rather than requiring an installer to run or files to be copied to various places on c: 00:45:09 and without copying any files to the windows directories 00:45:33 So you have the concept of obnoxious programs vs. normal programs. 00:45:48 whatever you want to call them 00:45:49 But both need to be installed to be run. 00:45:58 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-53-137.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 00:46:05 not in the sense i'm talking about 00:46:16 That's why I said you must revise your concepts. 00:46:52 the term "portable executable" is a pretty standard term in the windows world.. and it means what i just described 00:47:33 of course, these executables aren't usally portable across operating systems, but most windows users don't care about that and therefore don't mean that when they refer to "portable" apps 00:47:45 anyway.. i don't really care to bicker over terminology 00:48:04 So you're saying that MS-Windows users are just as gross as the OS they're using. Interesting. That would explain 00:49:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 00:51:07 -!- ijp [~user@host31-52-140-134.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: The garbage collector got me] 00:52:57 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@66-168-42-64.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 00:53:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:55:24 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:57:33 oops.. it wasn't gauche scheme that had "portable" version on windows.. but gambit scheme 00:59:26 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 01:01:12 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 01:06:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:08:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 01:11:57 yoklov [~yoklov@66-168-42-64.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #scheme 01:12:16 peterhil 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[~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:54:34 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 13:57:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:00:03 what is the immutable way, for going through a list, an unkown number elements at a time ??? like when you are parsing ... 14:02:30 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:03:09 mucker : a plain recursive function, maybe ? 14:04:40 ski but that would mean the recursive function has to be big, to accomodate all the parsing possibilities 14:05:32 currently I am using set! over a global and ... is-word, is-number, is-operator, 14:05:42 bzzbzz [~Franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:05:58 you could probably make smaller functions, one for each case, and have the larger function call the appropriate one of these 14:06:24 (and then each of those will call back to the larger one, to parse recursively) 14:07:28 Ah ! mut-recursion right ?? 14:07:29 lifecoder [~dan@194.44.246.242] has joined #scheme 14:07:32 yes 14:07:40 (mutual recursion) 14:07:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:09:01 now I can test each of the little function neatly and separately :) 14:09:46 yeah, that's a bonus :) 14:10:40 -!- bzzbzz [~Franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #scheme 14:11:30 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:12:22 one more thing, about error handling ... should I use try catch or is there any other lispier way ?? (I can think of the C way, which is *yuck*) 14:12:33 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:13:04 using guile 14:13:52 i don't know that much Guile -- presumably it has some kind of condition/exception handling system 14:14:21 most implementations have a try/catch of some sort 14:14:24 alternatives would be (b) use an "error value" (and check for it); (c) use continuations 14:15:03 i don't think there's a "lispy" alternative to exceptions. implementing exceptions with delimited continuations could be called "lispy" but in the end you will be using an exception system :P 14:15:18 he he 14:16:40 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:17:15 currently i am thinking of writing a macro like -- begin -- which will excutre and check the return value of each and every sexp. If the return value is a error, call a lamda 14:18:18 "Condition Handling in the Lisp Language Family" by Kent M. Pitman in 2001 at might be interesting 14:18:19 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:19:00 mucker : you could certainly do something like that 14:19:20 -!- masm [~masm@bl6-237-8.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:19:22 -!- DT` [~ea@host151-115-dynamic.8-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:19:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:19:31 (however, i would think it nicer to make the macro more like `let*', so that you can bind results from each intermediate computation) 14:20:01 macros are addictive ! 14:20:32 be careful though, i heard `syntax-rules' can cause eye-cancer 14:20:40 masm [~masm@bl6-237-8.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:21:12 i come from the perl-land, my eyes have gone through enough already :) 14:21:25 *taylanub* bows with respect 14:23:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:24:00 DT`` [~ea@host151-115-dynamic.8-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 14:24:07 (note that you might be in close danger of inventing the exception monad here -- also compare with SRFI 2 : "AND-LET*: an AND with local bindings, a guarded LET* special form" by Oleg Kiselyov at , and the entry about domain contagion "Option types, optional parameters" in 2006-02-03 at Riastradh's blag ) 14:28:39 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:28:39 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:30:26 -!- lifecoder [~dan@194.44.246.242] has quit [Quit: lifecoder] 14:30:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:34:04 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 14:35:32 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@95-25-106-32.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:36:08 lifecoder [~dan@194.44.246.242] has joined #scheme 14:38:44 -!- lggr 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[~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:32:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:38:18 -!- ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:38:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@209-6-30-187.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 15:39:00 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 15:39:20 eni [~eni@82.230.88.217] has joined #scheme 15:42:07 tupi [~david@177.150.184.83] has joined #scheme 15:42:30 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:43:27 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:44:22 -!- lifecoder [~dan@194.44.246.242] has quit [Quit: lifecoder] 15:47:03 looks like curiosity's taking a closer look at the pyramid.. 15:47:07 http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/proj/msl/redops/ods/surface/sol/00046/opgs/edr/ncam/NRA_401578690EDR_F0042100NCAM00308M_.JPG 15:47:08 http://tinyurl.com/8tmguyr 15:47:14 http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/proj/msl/redops/ods/surface/sol/00046/opgs/edr/ncam/NRA_401578433EDR_F0042100NCAM00308M_.JPG 15:47:15 http://tinyurl.com/9zaussa 15:47:38 Probably would be more on topic in #lispcafe 15:47:49 ooops 15:47:56 sorry.. i thought i was in #space, not #scheme 15:48:00 sorry! 15:49:41 Well, technically, Curiosity in not in space, it's on Mars. 15:50:05 true.. but there's virtually no one in #mars 15:50:20 #space is where all the action is.. such as it is.. 15:50:23 Hence my #lispcafe suggestion :-) 15:50:49 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:51:06 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 15:54:13 githogori [~githogori@124.sub-75-209-175.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 15:55:54 -!- lggr 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joined #scheme 17:36:01 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:36:06 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-149-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:39:19 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:41:29 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:43:24 McFritzen [~Lajla@ip51cc146b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #scheme 17:43:55 How common is it to use a vector datatype to store values in of different types that aren't scalars as opposed to say using something struct-like for it? 17:44:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:44:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 17:44:39 depends on which makes more sense for your case i'd say 17:45:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.87.236] has joined #scheme 17:45:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.87.236] has quit [Changing host] 17:45:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 17:45:56 taylanub, in what case would you store wildly different datatypes in a vector then and not a struct-like something? 17:48:46 crundar [~Jason@99-108-224-199.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:50:11 there could be an "implicit" shared property. for example all lisp objects are .. lisp objects, irregardless of their type :P 17:51:06 i can't think of a concrete example right now, but can vaguely imagine cases where a program would receive very different types of data, their order being the most important thing for the program 17:51:24 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:52:46 but if the program is using positions in a vector merely as an indicator of what role --from a well-defined limited set of possible roles-- the object has, then it's surely abusing vectors 17:52:52 -!- eni [~eni@82.230.88.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 18:00:16 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-166-248.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 18:01:01 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-166-248.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:01:16 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:01:39 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 18:03:30 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:03:43 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:05:02 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:11 yoklov [~yoklov@66-168-42-64.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:09:03 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 18:10:20 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 18:11:14 McFritzen: it's quite frequent. 18:13:03 pjb, got some example code? 18:13:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:13:50 taylanub, one would assume, but I'm having troubles conceiving an algorithm which would make widely different datatypes a function of some natural ordering in some way, my experience has that if it is, it's almost anways the same type, and almost always a number too. 18:15:54 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:19:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 18:19:26 McFritzen: See for a recent example: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/830d6de654efbb59/3cb4592c503e7409?lnk=gst&q=author%3Apascal+author%3Abourguignon#3cb4592c503e7409 18:19:27 http://tinyurl.com/8qn4ybs 18:20:09 Ah, well, here that's lists, but there's no conceptual difference between lists and vectors. 18:21:24 About to point that out. 18:21:32 Well, I do use them with lists. 18:21:49 I feel the thing with lists is that you tend to use themr when you're going to need all elements in some way and actually naturally progress them in some way 18:22:00 and vectors like 'I need element 5 now' and 'element 3' the other time. 18:22:18 sc 18:22:24 Also, hi rudybot it's been a long time 18:22:26 There are other considerations. But indeed, the kind of accesses is an important one. 18:22:36 rudybot, (eq? values (compose)) 18:22:37 McFritzen: your sandbox is ready 18:22:37 McFritzen: ; Value: #t 18:22:40 Good boy 18:22:41 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:22:50 For example, you can use vector to reduce memory usage vs. lists. 18:22:53 (for some reason, i get (basically) 404 for that link) 18:23:40 pjb, indeed, but have you used it in your code a lot? 18:23:47 rudybot: do values compose? 18:23:48 ski: ' e  é 18:24:11 I would have to grep to see where I use vectors 18:24:55 One typical place would be in messages. 18:25:05 explain? 18:25:09 You mean message passing? 18:25:27 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:26:17 For example, in implementing the telnet protocol, I have an intermediate telnet message representation such as (vector iac sb xdisploc 75 85 73 80 69 82 58 48 46 48 iac se 1 2 3) 18:27:31 Ahh, yes. 18:27:39 I would do that with a struct-like thing I guess. 18:28:15 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:28:17 As I don't feel that the number 0 to iac or 1 to sb is conceptually that relevant, it could've been at the end of it with another 'agreement' and not really matter, if you get what I mean? 18:28:36 Say for instance if you model a waveform and you put down the amplitude per milisecond, that's more conceptually relevant 18:28:47 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 18:29:42 -!- wingo [~wingo@132-117.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:30:37 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-149-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:31:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 18:35:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:58 -!- bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-52-137-44.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:30 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r190-135-56-247.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 18:37:40 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-116-102.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:39 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 18:40:20 masm [~masm@bl17-200-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 18:41:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:43:00 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:39 fold [~fold@66-169-204-12.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:45:54 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-67-128.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 18:45:55 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 18:46:18 -!- b4283 [~b4283@114-47-20-226.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:47:58 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:48:29 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #scheme 18:49:44 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:50:30 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:51:13 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 18:57:54 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 18:58:55 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:59:11 -!- poindontcare [~user@c-50-131-221-119.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:04:03 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:05:01 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 19:09:42 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 19:13:23 McFritzen: The point I guess is that when you program in lisp or scheme you tend to use more symbolic thinking than statistical thinking. You just don't need to think about the type of the elements of a vector or a list. Also, you don't think in terms of vector if what you have is a record or an object. On the other hand, when you program neural networks, or other statistical algorithm, then you are only dealing with vectors of 19:13:24 numbers. 19:13:46 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:15:10 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-200-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:15:12 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.45] has joined #scheme 19:16:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:17:21 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 19:21:23 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 19:21:36 eni [~eni@82.230.88.217] has joined #scheme 19:24:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NctRVC2O3NM 19:25:51 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:26:19 -!- eni [~eni@82.230.88.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:29:52 riccardo [~riccardo@host146-109-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:30:53 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-149-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:33:27 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 19:35:57 cls 19:36:00 :) 19:37:46 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:51 pjb, yes, but surely it would be better to just use structs in the case when you just have a record of an object? 19:41:21 Less error prone to do (telnet-xdisploc some-telnet-object) than (vector-ref some-telnet-object 3) 19:41:45 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 19:45:49 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 19:52:41 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:54:18 McFritzen: sure, if you think in terms of structures, you should use structures. 19:54:36 McFritzen: perhaps the confusion you have comes from the fact that r5rs doesn't standardize structures and objects 19:54:39 Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:54:52 McFritzen: read sicp Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 19:55:19 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-248.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:55:32 pjb, yeah, I know, it's a bit of a mess that it doesn't I guess. 19:56:06 But that's sort of what I mean I guess with that I seldom encounter myself using vectors when it's not all numbers and use struct-like things instead in other cases. 19:56:45 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #scheme 19:56:53 There are a lot of libraries to define all kinds of structures or objects. 19:56:54 McFritzen: responding to your question from 90 minutes ago: I cannot recall ever putting values of different types into a vector. 19:57:05 And if you don't have any, it's rather trivial to write a define-structure macro. 19:57:06 And I rarely do so with lists or hash tables either. 19:57:25 pjb, yeah, I know, but that's a bit besides the point. 19:57:57 No, that's exactly the point: in lisp and scheme, you can define your own abstractions and seamlessly integrate them in the host language. 19:58:11 The reason I'm asking is because I'm implementing a toy lisp and during doing so I honestly wondered if I couldn't just say 'Okay, vectors can only contain scalar values, and all of the same type, or other vectors', because I really don't e4ver see myself using them otherwise and optimization is cool I guess. 19:58:15 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 19:58:23 Yes, I know that, but that's not the point my my enquiry, I just wanted to know how common it was. 19:58:42 offby1, my old friend 19:58:48 I like what you've done to your beard. 19:58:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-124.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:08 Well, if you consider that 99% of the structures defined in r5rs are implemented as vector rather than lists, I'd say it's rather common. 19:59:45 Just you don't see it, since you just use the structure abstraction (or the higher level abstraction specific to your application). 19:59:56 *offby1* stares blankly 20:00:17 pjb, I no that, but there's no reason I can't implement structures primitively. 20:00:28 Definitely. 20:00:39 Especailly because if you implement structs as macros over vectors you might expose stuff unwittingly 20:00:52 And it's even much better when you have an implementation that does, since that allows you to define distinct types. 20:00:55 As in, it might happen that (vector-ref some-struct 3) means something 20:01:00 Because a macro expands to it. 20:01:53 Notice however that it may be useful to be able to do that. CL:DEFSTRUCT has options to implement a given structure type as a list or a vector instead of a subclass of structure-object. 20:02:12 It's an implementation decision. The abstraction is the same. 20:02:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:50 Yeah, but as I said, it might expose internal details that way. 20:02:51 McFritzen: I think, if you make structures out of vectors, you can have a bit somewhere on the vector that says "I am not really a vector", so all your built-in vector operations will fail, and thus you won't leak anything. 20:03:03 I want (vector-ref some-struct 3) to say 'screw you, I'm not a vector' 20:03:11 Not do some vague barely specified behaviour 20:03:39 offby1, how? 20:03:49 Eventually it's going to expand to some vector-ref on some vector right? 20:04:14 -!- tupi [~david@177.150.184.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:57 I don't know how, but I suspect it's easy. 20:05:15 I don't see how it can be possible. 20:05:21 You're going to leak out something. 20:05:35 I think your average lisp puts a "type" indicator into every value -- a few bits. One bit pattern represents, says, "vector"; you'd use a separate bit pattern to mean "struct". 20:05:45 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:05:51 Yeah, but then it's not a pure macro any more 20:06:08 So your lisp would barf on (vector-ref some-struct 3) for exactly the same reason it'd barf on (vector-ref "I am not a vector" 3) 20:06:22 Indeed, that is what I want, but then it's not a pure macro any more. 20:06:30 oh, you want to do this implementation entirely in "user" code. 20:06:36 I mean, it's of course very well possible that under the hood structs and vectors are quite similar 20:06:40 I think Aubrey Jaffer has something that does exactly that in slib. 20:06:43 No, that is what I _don't_ want. 20:07:02 I want structs to just be primitive types and limit vectors to scalars which all must have the same type. 20:07:20 *shrug* 20:07:31 At least, of the last part, I wonder if it's worth it, because like you, I never notice myself doing otheriwse. 20:07:34 I've never written a lisp, but I can't help but feel that would all be easy 20:07:39 Well, the question here is that either you work at the level of the implementation, in which case, you can "easily" do that (the ease depending on the baroque level of the implementation, perhaps needed to deal with a lot of other design choices). Or you can work at the user code level (library, application), in which case implementing an air-tight abstraction such as structure over scheme vectors will require you implement also an 20:07:40 application-level vector abstraction. 20:07:56 Of course it would, you're not answering my quaestion and answering a completely unrelated one. 20:08:10 Indeed 20:08:24 So that is why I'm doing it at the implementation level. 20:08:30 McFritzen: well the answer, in case of structures, is to just use an implementation that provides them, since it's rather fundamental a data type. 20:08:55 But the same problem can occur with other data types and other language extensions. 20:09:49 Yeah, but I'm not talking scheme here, I'm talking about some toy lisp to see how useful it is and I just wondered that assuming structs are available, how likely would someone still put widely different datatypes in a vector. 20:09:54 Ie. you can easily reach a point where you want to go metalinguistic, and where you can't mix the layers of the metalinguistic tower anymore. Anyways, scheme doesn't promote this mixing (CL is a little more lenient here). 20:10:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:10 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:00 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 20:11:02 dnolen [~user@12.130.122.149] has joined #scheme 20:11:18 -!- pjb is now known as Guest59510 20:12:18 -!- Guest59510 is now known as pjb` 20:12:31 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 20:13:16 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-233-88.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:48 pothos [~pothos@114-36-240-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:17:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:22:49 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:24:08 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:24:32 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