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#scheme 11:45:06 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 11:52:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:58:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 12:00:16 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 12:01:19 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:33 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:03:51 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 12:07:31 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 12:07:49 crundar [~Jason@99-108-224-199.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 12:11:10 samth_away: are you among those that think dynamic-wind was a bad addition to scheme? 12:11:49 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:16:29 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 12:18:59 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 12:21:39 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.216.136.193] has joined #scheme 12:22:05 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:28:16 dynamic-wind is one of those... interesting things 12:28:19 It's like C99's VLAs 12:28:45 Quite useful in some situations, but awkward that they put it in as a mandatory part of the basic spec, because some implementations may find it a lot harder to implement, and mooost situations don't call for it 12:29:24 Personally, I think it should have been in an additional section saying "if at all possible, the implementation should provide a set of functions/semantics like this .... but don't worry too much if it can't" 12:30:00 And also reserve those names for the spec's use anyway, so if the implementation doesn't provide those exact features, it shouldn't provide anything else under the same name 12:30:17 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 12:34:25 carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 12:35:15 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-200-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:35:21 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:38:33 masm [~masm@bl17-200-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:39:42 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 12:41:28 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.216.136.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:08 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:46:35 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:50:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 12:54:38 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit 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joined #scheme 13:54:50 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:00:40 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 14:06:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:06:21 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:12:54 samth: are you among those that think dynamic-wind was a bad addition to scheme? 14:13:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:13:57 tupi [~david@177.149.50.12] has joined #scheme 14:15:06 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-210-230.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:15:40 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:16:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:16:38 -!- ente_ [mrtoast@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has left #scheme 14:18:25 wingo, i'm not sure 14:18:51 me neither 14:18:52 wingo, something along the lines of d-w is necessary 14:19:58 but i don't know if d-w is the right thing along those lines 14:20:32 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:24 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #scheme 14:21:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 14:22:45 What lines are those? 14:23:32 If you start from the premise that something like d-w is required, then d-w prettymuch becomes the only thing it could be 14:24:31 LeoNerd, what implementations find it hard to implement? 14:25:10 Riastradh: The way that continuations and activation records are stored may make it nontrivial to find the dynamic-wind boundaries to run the enter/exit functions 14:25:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:26:52 *Riastradh* raises several eyebrows. 14:27:46 Given a primitive %CWCC which doesn't know about winding, it's pretty easy to define DYNAMIC-WIND and a CWCC which does know about it. 14:29:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:32:39 See, e.g., scheme/rts/wind.scm in Scheme48, which is under a hundred lines of heavily commented code with extra features specific to Scheme48 which you could just rip out. 14:34:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:38:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:29 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.202.26.200] has joined #scheme 14:42:30 hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:42:41 Riastradh: interesting that you mention scheme48 -- for a while oleg was claiming that you could implement call/cc in terms of shift and reset 14:42:57 and that was the case before dynamic-wind was added to scheme 14:43:12 and the code he pointed to was in scheme48, from before d-w was added to scheme 14:43:21 If you have a reset around the whole program (whatever the `whole program' is, exactly), sure. 14:43:23 but now that there is dynamic-wind, you can't do that 14:43:26 right 14:43:56 but the call/cc implementation would have to unwind to the reset and then wind back, which is detectable if there is dynamic-wind in the language 14:43:56 Well, the interaction of shift and reset with winding is tricky. 14:43:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:44:01 heh 14:44:13 i think flatt got it right, pretty much 14:44:27 If you have a shift and reset which don't interact with it, and you have a reset around the whole program, then you can implement %CWCC in terms of shift and reset, and then you can implement CWCC and DYNAMIC-WIND in terms of that. 14:44:55 I don't think so, unless it's been clarified since I last looked at it (which, granted, was two or three years ago). 14:45:17 the "adding delimited control to a production blabla" paper? 14:45:30 i liked it quite a bit, and implemented basically the same thing in guile 14:47:58 Ah, perhaps the interaction with DYNAMIC-WIND makes sense but the interaction with parameters in Racket doesn't. 14:48:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:48:51 This message must be archived somewhere. 14:49:04 Message-id <20090604030941.2B9439828B@pluto.mumble.net>, anyway... 14:49:20 Here we go: . 14:53:03 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:56:09 -!- ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 14:58:57 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 15:08:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:09:19 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:11:22 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:11:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 15:11:29 fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #scheme 15:11:41 -!- fogus is now known as `fogus 15:14:45 crundar [Jason@140-182-54-123.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 15:15:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:17:43 what do most schemers think of python? 15:17:56 Riastradh: that looked like a bug to me 15:18:37 that behavior is not like the delimited dynamic bindings work that ccshan and oleg did, and the implementation described in the paper 15:18:53 wingo, there's an explanation of why parameters are different in that email thread 15:18:56 though, i'm not sure how far call-with-composable-continuation captures 15:19:12 samth: ah ok, will read on 15:19:19 took me a while to understand the example :) 15:19:21 wingo, out to the nearest prompt with the relevant prompt tag 15:19:27 ok 15:19:29 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.92] has joined #scheme 15:20:40 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 15:21:55 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 15:24:05 hypnocat: see http://www.cliki.net/Humor (schemers are included in lisp in the second matrix). 15:24:39 hypnocat, it's mostly not lexically scoped. What a mess. 15:27:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:27:07 what if python was built around sexp's? 15:27:18 http://axisofeval.blogspot.ch/2012/07/when-language-designer-talks-about.html 15:27:19 http://tinyurl.com/clldvel 15:27:31 hypnocat: then for a start, it might understand lexical closures :P 15:28:23 hypnocat: there may be a sexpr representation of python in cl-python. 15:28:35 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc01-o.oracle.com] has joined #scheme 15:30:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 15:31:45 the more i use scheme, the more i cringe when i look at programs in languages without the relatively simple and elegant syntax of scheme 15:32:00 it's definitely ruining other languages for me 15:32:08 it's even ruining common lisp.. 15:33:40 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:06 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:34:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:34:52 python's gotten so popular, though 15:35:05 seems like every week a new app is using python as its scripting language of choice 15:35:36 i might have to bite the bullet and have another try at learning it before long.. 15:35:58 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 15:36:33 i was half hoping to hear some "python is not so bad", or "python's actually pretty good" answers from you guys.. 15:37:00 but i guess it might be as bad as it looks.. 15:37:21 which is kind of surprising, considering the likes of peter norvig switching from common lisp to python 15:38:18 jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:39:07 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 15:40:07 I find Python too annoying 15:40:20 I classify languages by what they /don't/ support and there's far too much in that list for Python for me to consider it 15:41:07 One can't cross-reference Python code, so it's hard to read and prove theorems about. 15:42:32 (define count 0) (define (incr-count) (incr! count)) ; Doable in Scheme. my $count = 0; my $incr_count = sub { $count++ }; # Doable in Perl. 15:42:36 Utterly impossible in Python 15:42:58 Actually, impossible in Java too, but even moreso because Java doesn't even have firstclass code 15:43:02 ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has joined #scheme 15:43:26 python is designed to be even more pedagogical than scheme. It's to be used only by toddlers. 15:43:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:43:35 count = 0; def incr_count(): count = count + 1? 15:43:44 Riastradh: You'd think 15:43:49 Variable scoping doesn't work that way in Python 15:44:21 An assignment is a _statement_, not an expression. The assigment _statement_ FIRST creates the variable on the LHS, then evaluates the expression on the RHS, then binds the name to the value 15:44:25 are you saying there are no global variables in python? 15:44:34 Popularity of python is like popularity of BASIC: it's the first programming language learned by children. 15:44:44 Such code as above -first- creates the 'count' variable _again_ inside the function, then finds it is now an unbound name when it tries to evaluate the expression 15:44:59 hypnocat: There is the 'global' keyword, which you can use to find _globally_ scoped variables, yes. 15:45:17 pjb: then what explains someone like peter norvig switching from common lisp to python? and even singing python's praises.. he can't be accused of being just a child, as far as programming goes 15:45:19 count = 0; def incr_count(): global count; count = count + 1; # This works in Python 15:45:32 But that requires a _global_ variable. Can't do nested scoping 15:45:47 hypnocat: he's a child. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1803627 15:45:49 Oh, yes. 15:45:52 LeoNerd: are you sure about all this ? i mean i'm not a pythonist but .. 15:45:53 (define (make-counter start) (define count start) (lambda () (incr! counter))) 15:46:08 sub make_counter { my $count = shift; return sub { $count++ } } 15:46:09 i thought python is essentially a sane language 15:46:13 Cannot do that in python _at all_ 15:46:28 What you _can_ do is a silly one-element-array hack, like in Java 15:46:38 No, taylanub... 15:47:38 interesting, and i thought PHP is the only ""modern"" scripting language that still doesn't support lexical scoping 15:47:41 I dunno, I don't think there's anything wrong with avoiding mutable variables altogether with a `one-element-array hack', LeoNerd. 15:47:57 pjb: great quote.. but despite admitting that python has that flaw compared to lisp, norvig still thinks highly of python and still switched to it.. your quote does not prove he's a child, just that he is willing to use python despite this particular shortcoming 15:48:12 The 2012-08-24 entry in is a nice example of what's horribly wrong with Python's scope even without mutable variables or closures involved. 15:48:24 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 15:48:30 taylanub: Python does not have a way to -declare- variables; without being able to declare a variable the concept of "lexical scope" goes out the window 15:48:42 hypnocat: IMO he switched only for the popularity: it landed him a job at Google. Google doesn't otherwise use lisp or hire lispers. 15:48:53 Python _does not have a way distinguish_ between creating a new variable (define) from changing the value of an existing variable (set!) 15:49:06 I'm ready to praise Cobol, if it lands be a job. 15:49:23 Actually, Cobol is a cool DSL for business applications. 15:49:39 No, Google definitely doesn't hire the dozen Lispers I know personally who work there. 15:49:45 pjb: i don't think google would have refused to hire peter norvig just because he wanted to continue using lisp.. if he wanted a job there, i'm sure the doors would be wide open 15:49:53 They bought ITA, that's different. 15:50:12 I'm not even talking about the ones at ITA. 15:50:29 pjb: and if he felt forced to use python, i don't think he'd have sung its praises as much as he did 15:50:31 Riastradh: The one-element-array hack is _NOT_ a way of avoiding mutable variables 15:50:42 The array -element- is mutable still, this is a stupid distinction 15:50:42 They weren't hired on their Lisp resumes. If they didn't use python and java, they wouldn't have been hired. 15:50:57 pjb: plus, even if google had forced him to use python, i doubt they'd have forced him to abandon lisp.. and yet he did 15:51:43 They were hired on engineering competence... Some had never really used Java or Python before. 15:52:27 LeoNerd, yes, it is. I don't mean avoiding mutable locations altogether; I mean only mutable variables, i.e. SET!. 15:52:28 The fact that lexically-captured variables have to be declared 'final' in Java is only there because of a limitation in the underlying VM, which lacks the ability to understand lexical captures or closures at all; the compiler fakes them up with some clever hackery, but that requires the finals 15:52:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:52:41 i'm sorry, but i just can't believe peter norvig would have any trouble getting a cushy job at google even if his language of choice was brainfuck 15:53:35 hypnocat, don't worry. pjb has a reality distortion field around him. Sometimes it's entertaining to sprinkle reality at him just to see it fizzle and swirl in the field. 15:55:12 Riastradh: Yeah, I don't see the point in making a distinction. Some functional styles suggest not having mutable data. That's OK, that's a way of working. Some do, that's fine also. What I don't understand is where's the utility in having this stupid middle-ground, of only allowing immutable variables to mutable containers..? 15:57:01 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-149-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: What happened to Systems A through E?] 15:57:11 SET! is the most confusing part of Scheme for novices. 15:57:26 So you're saying you'd disallow set! but still keep vector-set! ? 15:57:44 Yes. 15:57:55 set! is just = in most other languages, right? what's so hard to understand? 15:58:09 ML does this. So does C, really, although it has a very different object model. 15:58:12 In some other languages, hypnocat. 15:58:50 The _real world_ has mutable state 15:58:53 Humans understand mutable state 16:00:20 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:00:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 16:00:31 depends on how you look at the real world - can you change the shirt you wore yesterday? 16:01:18 that's irrelevant. You cannot mutate variables in the past either. 16:01:19 `Now why doesn't (define (incr! x) (set! x (+ x 1))) (let ((a 0)) (incr! a) a) work?' `Well, you see, there are two different locations there corresponding with the two different variables x and a...' `But they're the same! See, I wrote (incr! a), so x is a! And if I write (define (incr-car! x) (set-car! x (+ 1 (car x)))) (let ((a (cons 0 0))) (incr-car! x) (car a)), it works!' 16:01:59 Riastradh: call by value and call by reference or call by name was one of the first thing I was taught in CS. 16:02:08 The problem is that a lot of people don't study CS. 16:02:24 -!- `fogus is now known as `fogus|away 16:02:39 `Call-by-value' and `call-by-reference' and `call-by-name' are some of the worst and most confusing terms I know in CS... 16:02:53 -!- framling [U2FsdGVkX1@ma.sdf.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:03:23 Which one is Scheme? Call-by-value? Well, then why does INCR-CAR! work? Call-by-reference or call-by-name? Well, then why doesn't INCR! work? 16:03:55 it's call by value. Macros are another subject. 16:05:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:05:16 Now, C is call-by-value too, right? Then why doesn't `struct x { int f; }; void incr_f(struct x s) { s.x += 1; }' work just like INCR-CAR! does? 16:05:24 Yes. 16:05:29 (s.f, rather) 16:07:02 It doesn't. 16:07:02 `Pass-copy' (C) and `pass-identity' (Scheme) would be better terms, but nobody uses them, and in any case, SET! would still be confusing, because variable locations are the only kind of mutable locations not a priori associated with a first-class object you can pass around. 16:07:20 Because the structure is passed by value. 16:07:43 It works with cons cells, because the value in lisp is a reference to the cons cell. 16:07:50 Well, then your `call-by-value' and `call-by-reference' distinction isn't useful if the real distinction sits at a different level. 16:08:12 It's useful, you just need to know what's called, when, and what the values are. 16:08:42 It may not seem useful when you consider a single language, but it's useful when you compare languages. 16:09:06 -!- tupi [~david@177.149.50.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:09:07 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:09:25 a value is something that doesn't change. 16:09:31 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 16:09:41 crundar__ [~Jason@140-182-54-123.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 16:09:46 Not necessarily. 16:09:59 The value of lisp variables are lisp objects and some lisp objects are mutable. 16:10:02 Yes, like a family value, for instance, wingo. 16:11:02 Family values definitely don't change, although nobody is really quite sure what they are, but apparently they're valuable enough to make sure they don't change. 16:11:27 However, my presence value here has to change, it would seem, into an absence value. 16:11:56 Or you could just mutate your position vector. 16:12:06 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:12:34 -!- crundar [Jason@140-182-54-123.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 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