00:00:52 -!- covi [~covi@wasp.dreamhost.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:58 r7rs-small seems to define `lazy' as some sort of identity function on promises, and doesn't really explain how it solves the memory-usage problems with tail-calls to `force' 00:17:00 from my understanding, the problem with `force' is that internally it cannot properly be tail-recursive since it must wait for the value to be computed so that it can memoize it. i see no explanation of how `lazy' would solve that issue 00:22:35 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:27:41 oh sorry, i see now that the usage of (lazy ...) in place of (delay (force ...)) simply prevents `force' from being called at each iteration. and lastly i was about to ask what `lazy' does at all then, but now i realize that it does delay its expression, returning a promise, however one that will automatically force the promise that it returns itself 00:39:28 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 00:50:54 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 00:56:32 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 01:01:09 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-68-252.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:15:16 taylanub: lazy has been renamed delay-force, because that's exactly what it does 01:15:22 hi, I need to define a lot of procedures for u8vectors s8vectors f32vectors,... and the procedures are some sort of copy and paste between different data types. How can I use macros to define procedures on global scope using the prefixes u8, s8, f32, ...? 01:15:32 -!- xwl [~user@182.48.111.224] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:39 foof: where has it been renamed ? 01:16:41 b4283 [~b4283@114-47-5-148.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 01:20:27 http://www.cs.rice.edu/~taha/publications/conference/sml98.pdf googling just revealed this PDF. but anyhow ... 01:22:23 what i just don't understand now is why this is necessary at all; why not just use a single delay to wrap the thunk and return non-delayed values from the code 01:22:49 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 01:29:19 maybe I should reformulate my question: how can I use define-syntax to define a macro that generate diferent functions or symbols based on its argumments? 01:33:03 xonox [~xonox@dynamic2-248-029.usc.edu] has joined #scheme 01:34:19 tcleval: i think standard scheme has no means to achieve such a thing yet (the general idiom under which this would be categorized is called "reflection"). usually there will be implementation-dependent ways to achieve it; i'm thinking of syntax-case with string->symbol etc. 01:38:06 taylanub: I saw an example on racket http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/wmfarr/srfi-4-comprehensions.plt/1/1/srfi-4-comprehensions.ss 01:38:06 http://tinyurl.com/8v4byld 01:39:11 taylanub: I am trying to implement something like that on gambit-c: procedures to map, filter, ... all sorts of vectors 01:40:05 taylanub: I have them working but I find dificult to modify code as I have to modify 6 diferent procedures any time I have to do a change 01:40:09 if gambit-c supports `syntax-case', it should be possible. the `symbol-append' procedure that Racket code uses should be possible to implement in R5RS 01:40:52 (with symbol->string, usual string manipulation functions, and string->symbol) 01:42:11 it has syntax-case, but I could not find datum-syntax. There is datum->syntax-object and I dont know if they are the same 01:42:13 gambit supports syntax-case as an extension 01:43:36 datum->syntax-object sounds promising. there should also be syntax-object->datum or so, and that should be enough then (syntax -> datum (symbol) -> string -> (manipulate) -> datum (symbol) -> syntax) 01:51:17 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-41-119.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 01:53:27 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-205-221.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:54:37 taylanub: it worked, I just had to implement symbol-append... now it ll save me tons of work 02:01:08 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:02:29 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@177.98.190.101] has left #scheme 02:03:58 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.29.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:12:07 bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-48-210-247.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:22:57 -!- arbn [~arbn@71-87-150-49.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:15 arbn [~arbn@71-87-150-49.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:27:29 arpunk [~arpunk@190.84.40.17] has joined #scheme 02:30:21 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60A9C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:36:47 -!- pnpuff` [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #scheme 02:41:27 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #scheme 02:44:06 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Bed-time] 02:44:11 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:44:55 it's 4:40 in the morning and i finally understand how `lazy' works and is necessary 02:47:31 yoklov [~yoklov@66-168-42-64.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:52:04 -!- xonox [~xonox@dynamic2-248-029.usc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:01:53 pnpuff` [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #scheme 03:05:36 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:12:15 -!- arpunk [~arpunk@190.84.40.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:15:09 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.157.227] has joined #scheme 03:19:27 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:25:59 arpunk [~arpunk@190.84.40.17] has joined #scheme 03:29:07 am1ja2VuemllCg [~jtmckenzi@cpe-68-173-230-102.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:31:27 Can anyone recommend an interactive interpreter that's nicer than guile? I'm looking for things like support for arrow keys (up to get last command, left/right to reposition the cursor) 03:31:44 Ideally something similar to ipython 03:32:03 And non-GUI 03:32:45 am1ja2VuemllCg: guile got arrow-key histories 03:33:28 am1ja2VuemllCg: Guile Reference 4.4.2 03:35:19 lewis1711 [~lewis@121-79-208-160.dsl.sta.inspire.net.nz] has joined #scheme 03:35:20 Ahh...disabled by default 03:35:23 Thanks man 03:36:35 btw rlwrap is a good friend when in need 03:37:32 http://pastebin.com/dGJbgzrd once the while condition on line 10 is false, the whole thing freezes up. at that point, I expect it to return new-states at 53. However it does nothing but does not terminate. help? is my loop macro incorrect? 03:39:13 Oh wow, rlwrap is beautiful 03:39:19 b4283, thanks again! 03:39:35 am1ja2VuemllCg: glad to be helpful 04:09:51 whenever it hits the else it just does nothing 04:09:57 or whenever the cond fails 04:11:34 lewis1711: what is `set'? 04:11:53 Daemmerung: makes a set. 04:12:09 It's not defined in the paste. 04:12:52 isn't it irrelevant? the weird looping behaviour is the issue 04:13:08 Humor me. 04:13:42 I didn't define it 04:14:10 the loop just stops printing things, but continues to run 04:14:47 it's part of racket anyway 04:15:30 you're not in #racket 04:16:10 also, there's no `else' in your paste 04:18:06 alright then 04:18:35 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.157.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:58 -!- pnpuff` [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #scheme 04:24:23 ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #scheme 04:29:08 tali713 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wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-163-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:35 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-163-3.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:14:08 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.213.187.154] has joined #scheme 13:16:35 Whitesquall [~notwhites@109.225.61.82] has joined #scheme 13:18:23 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 13:28:08 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 13:37:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:39:03 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:22 i just realized r7rs-small doesn't introduce delimited continuations, nor does it deprecate call/cc. i thought it's time already 13:46:53 (well i guess it shouldn't do the latter before doing the former) 13:51:36 pepijndevos [~pepijndev@ec2-23-21-19-58.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 13:52:01 -!- pepijndevos [~pepijndev@ec2-23-21-19-58.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #scheme 13:57:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@2001:5c0:1400:b::1] has joined #scheme 14:06:48 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@109.225.61.82] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:07:01 Whitesquall [~notwhites@109.225.61.82] has joined #scheme 14:07:29 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@109.225.61.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:09 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@port1117.ds1-amb.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:11:02 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-95.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 14:32:55 guarra6969 [~asiaticaX@77.224.37.171] has joined #scheme 14:33:23 taylanub: of course not, don't want to hurt adoption... 14:34:58 ijp: i thought everyone agrees now that call/cc is considered harmful. anyhow, why didn't they at least include delimited continuations ? 14:34:59 youlysses 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[~xonox@dynamic2-248-029.usc.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:49 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-65-215.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:33:02 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-72-218.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 22:33:10 cdidd [~cdidd@37-144-224-62.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:38:28 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:38:45 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:39:11 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60CD9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:51:04 random sicp question: how bad am i cheating myself if i don't really fully understand all of the math exercises? 22:51:47 is reading them, attempting to make sense of them while making 0% progress and then reading the solutions on bill's blog (with a genuine effort to make sense of it but still not grasping it at all) going to be worth it in the end? 22:53:23 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:53:34 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 22:55:14 -!- phao [phao@177.174.148.20] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 22:56:50 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:56 realitygrill [~realitygr@209-6-30-187.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:03:37 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 23:06:20 AntelopeSalad: you mean examples that are related to mathematics outside of computer science ? 23:06:37 if just that, i personally wouldn't care much about not understanding them 23:06:51 nope, i mean the examples supplied by the SICP book 23:07:06 they give you a bunch of problems to work through 23:07:19 i think they're known to be hard 23:07:31 (well, there's easy ones and hard ones ..) 23:07:40 yeah for sure, i've been going through the book/lectures for a few days 23:07:46 i just finished the section on higher order functions 23:08:02 my problem is, i know literally nothing beyond basic math 23:08:21 and to apply everything they are teaching requires a decent understanding of math 23:08:47 applying in a sense of, using what they are teaching you to solve the problems they supply 23:08:47 if you grasp the fundamental concepts, it should be fine. trickier/practical things will probably come along when you actually (try to) use the concepts for some time 23:08:55 covi [~covi@wasp.dreamhost.com] has joined #scheme 23:09:09 i hope i'm explaining this clear enough, i just feel like 23:09:28 i grasp the concepts sort of ok but but i can't practice them because i can't follow the excercises 23:09:50 Can I put a bunch of functions in a list, and extract them one by a time to apply some element? Like, ((first funcs) x), currently I encountered error. 23:10:10 covi: you certainly should be able to 23:10:42 rudybot: eval (define funcs (list add1 sub1 (lambda (x) (expt x 2)))) 23:10:42 ijp: your sandbox is ready 23:10:43 ijp: Done. 23:10:53 rudybot: eval ((first funcs) 10) 23:10:54 ijp: ; Value: 11 23:11:07 rudybot: eval (map (lambda (func) (func 10)) funcs) 23:11:07 ijp: ; Value: (11 9 100) 23:11:14 etc 23:11:24 AntelopeSalad: maybe try to read some random "real" scheme code out there and see if you can understand that 23:11:29 covi: maybe if you can tell us what error you are getting? 23:11:41 Oh, I should use 'list' to make them into a list, instead of just ((lambda (x) (+ 1 x)) (lambda (x) (* 2 x)))? 23:11:46 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:11:48 taylanub: to put things into perspective, my math skills right now end at basic multiplication hah. all forms of math notation also crush me to the point of inducing a coma 23:12:02 covi: indeed, there you are applying the first function to the second one 23:12:35 I see. 23:12:39 Thanks ijp 23:12:40 and naturally you get an error since you are trying to add 1 to a function 23:12:46 no problem 23:13:13 would it be as simple as learning the math notations and slowly trying to simplify each problem set using only addition, subtraction, division and multiplication? 23:13:29 which math notations, exactly ? 23:13:34 all of them lol 23:14:02 imagine you graduated highschool many years ago but slept through basic algebra 23:14:09 in practice, programming usually doesn't include much math notation, but some of its own notational conventions 23:14:18 i didn't even know what the sum notation was 23:14:24 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD93046.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:14:24 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:14:24 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-107-173.as13285.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:14:24 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:14:24 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:14:24 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:14:35 you're probably going to have a hard time to be honest 23:14:43 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 23:14:54 maybe try something like htdp instead? 23:15:17 i actually just bookmarked that before 23:15:33 taylanub [tub@p4FD93046.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:15:33 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 23:15:33 amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-107-173.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 23:15:33 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 23:15:33 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:15:35 a random SO answer mentioned it was similar to SICP just less math heavy 23:15:39 i reckon there were some math-heavy parts in SICP. i wouldn't worry about them 23:16:14 i'm wondering if it's even worth it to familiarize myself with standard math notation to attempt to make sense of them 23:16:59 i really wouldn't bother unless you intend to get into "theoretical computer-science" 23:17:33 taylanub: SICP uses a lot of mathematical examples, it simply isn't feasible to ignore all of them 23:17:46 here's a good example http://www.billthelizard.com/2010/05/sicp-exercise-131-product-of-series.html 23:17:46 http://tinyurl.com/9lxmmtz 23:17:56 that's a random exercise 23:18:16 that top slide is already over my head 23:18:37 i know the top left thing is pi, and i can see that it's 2 fractions 23:18:40 that's all i have tho 23:18:59 if you scroll to the middle, that slide is basically an alien language to me 23:19:30 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:19:34 but sicp is teaching me that you need to break things down... so really it might not be that bad if i understood each component (in this case the math symbols) 23:19:52 and if you just want to learn a little scheme, the little schemer is even better, and the maths is replaced by food. Not free though. 23:20:10 ijp: i'm going through sicp to learn how to program, not specific to scheme 23:22:15 AntelopeSalad: it's just multiplication ... 23:23:22 (2 × 4 × 4 × 6 × 6 ...) ÷ (3 × 3 × 5 × 5 × 7 ...) 23:25:48 yeah 23:26:17 -!- Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Lämnar] 23:26:34 look at the middle slide though, when they present math formulas like that and ask you to produce them in scheme format.. that is where everything goes down hill for me 23:27:00 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:27:19 i think if i googled each symbol and seriously gave it 100% effort 23:27:29 i might be able to figure what that even means in a few hours 23:27:35 (/ (* 2 4 ....) (* 3 3.....)) 23:27:39 oh, that's some weird stuff, i don't understand it either at the moment. it's probably something simple that just needs to be learned tohugh 23:27:41 and then it might take another few hours to translate that to scheme 23:27:41 though* 23:27:49 so for me, solving that might seriously take 10 hours 23:27:58 minimum imo 23:28:29 if you look directly under the slide, he shows what it translates to in code 23:29:13 can you understand the code ? 23:30:39 i don't think i could fully explain it clearly without going through the process of substitution from end result back to the start 23:31:32 i feel like i understand it only by brute force 23:32:48 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:35:49 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:36:21 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:40:37 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:37 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 23:45:16 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #scheme 23:45:32 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 23:48:23 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:59:09 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme