00:14:48 -!- Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Lämnar] 00:15:48 anntzer [~antony@gyrus.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:16:38 hi 00:17:04 I have a macro m that takes a symbol as arg: (m sym) 00:17:21 and I would like to map it over a list of symbols 00:17:40 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:17:41 sthg like (for-each (lambda (x) (m x)) '(a b c)) 00:17:53 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 00:18:09 but of course this doesn't work because it does (m 'x) instead of (m 'a) 00:18:15 is there a way around this? 00:22:17 can you paste your macro 00:22:22 write a "map" macro that applies the macro to each item in term 00:22:49 well, it's chicken's define-foreign-variable 00:22:55 so I can't paste it :) 00:23:28 I think I understand the second option though 00:24:02 -!- ameoba [~sean@c-24-22-33-249.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:24:05 (define-syntax-rule (define-foreign-variables (name type) ...) (begin (define-foreign-variable name type) ...)) 00:24:27 ameoba [~sean@c-24-22-33-249.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:27:17 i get an unbound variable: name error 00:27:55 probably chicken doesn't have define-syntax-rule 00:28:03 ok so just split it 00:28:50 (define-syntax define-foreign-variables (syntax-rules () ((define-foreign-variables (name type) ...) (begin (define-foreign-variable name type) ...)))) 00:29:08 anyway, you get the idea 00:29:33 yipee 00:29:34 thanks 00:29:49 but so no way to make this "general" 00:29:52 ? 00:30:06 I mean abstract away the actual macro name? 00:30:07 hum 00:30:19 I guess it could work 00:30:21 nvm 00:31:07 the kind folks in #chicken might have ideas, also 00:35:29 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:35:37 phao_ [phao@177.174.4.216] has joined #scheme 00:36:34 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 00:38:58 -!- phao [~phao@187.117.233.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:39:27 -!- anntzer [~antony@gyrus.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:40:35 -!- masm [~masm@bl18-42-242.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:50:12 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:04:18 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@95-24-202-97.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:06:23 -!- 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'foo 'foo) ===> #t 08:17:05 but 08:17:20 (let ((x 'foo)) (case x (('foo) #t) (else #f))) ===> #f 08:17:30 any explanation? 08:18:47 (let ((x 'foo)) (case x ('foo #t) (else #f))) ===> #t 08:20:51 but 08:20:55 Each should have the form 08:21:00 (( ...) ...), 08:21:12 where did the inner () go? 08:21:41 or put it another way 08:21:42 Oh, right. 08:21:50 (let ((x 1)) (case x ((1) #t) (else #f))) ===> #t 08:21:57 (let ((x 1)) (case x (1 #t) (else #f))) ===> error 08:22:10 (let ((x 'foo)) (case x ((foo) #t) (else #f))) ==> #t 08:22:11 sure it works but I feel I'm missing sthg... 08:22:20 aaaah 08:22:24 ok 08:22:43 *shachaf* isn't an actual Schemer or anything. 08:22:59 still better than /me :p 08:23:17 each is an external representation of some object 08:23:20 that was it 08:24:55 thx 08:28:47 -!- woky_ [~woky@37.157.192.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:29:43 woky_ [~woky@37.157.192.89] has joined #scheme 08:29:45 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:33:42 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 08:34:25 -!- woky_ [~woky@37.157.192.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:38:11 ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has joined #scheme 08:41:16 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-93.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51:07 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:58:05 -!- b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:59:46 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 09:03:58 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 09:16:21 -!- anntzer [~antony@adsl-69-110-0-69.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:16:40 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 09:18:49 kuribas [~user@94-227-93-194.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 09:30:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:31 realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 09:39:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:40:19 -!- ameoba [~sean@c-24-22-33-249.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:40:19 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:41:30 ameoba [~sean@c-24-22-33-249.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:41:54 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 09:57:41 masm [~masm@bl18-42-242.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:58:32 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 10:12:52 DT`` [~ea@95.234.194.234] has joined #scheme 10:16:09 jennifer [~jennifer@unaffiliated/jennifer] has joined #scheme 10:16:51 Hello, I am new to scheme and I am reading HTDP.org, DrScheme is not on slackbuilds.org (I just installed mit-scheme). Where can I get DrScheme? Google isn't helping and I am confused on the terminologies between that and Racket (I found this on google). 10:17:12 DrScheme is now DrRacket 10:17:54 Racket is a language that is similar to but diverged from Scheme (or something). 10:18:25 -!- asumu [~at@racket/asumu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:30 What will I need to continue in HTDP.org? 10:18:36 asumu [~at@2001:470:b:b7:1e6f:65ff:fe23:c3d4] has joined #scheme 10:19:13 I suspect you'll be able to get by with DrRacket. 10:19:55 -!- DT`` [~ea@95.234.194.234] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:21:35 DT`` [~ea@95.234.194.234] has joined #scheme 10:22:49 Okay it doesn't exist in sbo, I am guessing it has a lot of dependencies? 10:30:53 It seems I have installed it but do not know how to get drracket to run. 10:33:32 How did you install it? 10:33:48 I think if you download it from their website there's a bin/ directory somewhere, or something. 10:34:36 -!- ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 10:36:57 not correctly! Let me try again. 10:37:19 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 10:42:55 -!- b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:24 ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has joined #scheme 10:50:40 -!- ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 10:55:14 Done! It works too! 10:55:25 I am a little worried: http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Companion/drscheme-Z-H-6.html#node_sec_2.1 looks nothing like the DrRacket I have now. 10:55:41 What does the one you have now look like? 10:55:45 "Execute" is "Run", "Break" is "Stop", I guess it catches me offguard. 10:55:54 Ah, small things like that. 10:56:28 *shachaf* usually doesn't really care about fancy tools like this all that much (although DrRacket looks nice). 10:56:41 A text editor + interpreter + REPL if you're lucky should be plenty! 10:56:44 Why, back in my day... 10:56:50 :p 10:56:59 That made me laugh, thank you. 11:02:26 ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has joined #scheme 11:16:56 -!- close-paren [~close-par@76.104.189.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:18:24 jennifer: (You're the first person I've ever heard of actually reading HTDP!) 11:18:34 (Then again, I'm not a Schemer, and I'm usually not in this channel.) 11:18:55 shachaf, I am new to this channel and the language. It was recommended to me as a beginning language for programming. 11:20:32 That's a reasonable recommendation. 11:21:39 jennifer: _The Little Schemer_ is a great book, although its focus isn't on Scheme as such. 11:22:18 close-paren [~close-par@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:24:08 I don't mind, though right now I prefer not to focus too much on language and more on problem solving, which the book seems to do. 11:27:11 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:27:47 That's reasonable too. :-) 11:27:59 :) 11:28:26 (But I still recommend _The Little Schemer_! It's a book about recursion.) 11:28:43 Hm, I don't have money for books, HTDP.org is free! 11:29:12 That's true. 11:31:45 Chapter 9 of TLS is free online! https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/BTLS/sample.ps 11:31:45 http://tinyurl.com/9f3u7zn 11:31:55 But you shouldn't start with it, certainly. 11:32:30 Hmm, I wonder if that chapter is made way more complicated by being in a strict language. 11:32:55 I am in mood for caviar! 11:36:55 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #scheme 11:36:55 -!- ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:37:10 Hm, so Schemes teaches bad programming habit! You're allowed to use any character to start your variable name. 11:37:51 A unicode zero-width nonbreaking space is often fun 11:38:30 ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has joined #scheme 11:38:44 jennifer: why would that be a bad programming habit? And it's not just any character: you cannot use ( or ) in variable names. 11:39:25 I was teasing. 11:39:41 But it's really quite practical for domain specific notations: (define +2^e (expt 2 (exp 1))) 11:40:03 jennifer: It doesn't teach you to do it, it just doesn't forbid you. 11:40:05 (define Anyway, at least it's not Agda! 11:40:32 I am having a lot of fun with Scheme as introduction, more so than when I had C++ as introduction in school. Can anybody tell me if Scheme is a good language to "master"? 11:40:34 Agda syntax is crazy (in a good way, I think?). 11:40:47 jennifer: It's more important to "master" concepts than languages. 11:40:59 pjb: Can't you if you escape it? \( 11:41:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 11:41:09 Euthy`: indeed, with escapes. 11:41:26 I keep forgetting that, you're right. There does seem to be a battle of which language is better for professional / daily use though. So I keep thinking about that. 11:41:31 There's a certain set of concepts that are very natural in Scheme, and those are good to learn. 11:41:47 I don't know that I'd recommend Scheme as a language for "professional / daily use", as you put it. 11:41:48 In LISP 1.0, spaces were constituents, you had to use commas to separate symbols (THIS WAS ONE SYMBOL,AND THIS ANOTHER) 11:41:59 But that doesn't matter. 11:42:07 This would be written (|THIS WAS ONE SYMBOL| |AND THIS ANOTHER|) nowadays. 11:42:28 shachaf: some scheme implementations are perfectly usable for professionnal or daily use. 11:42:37 pjb: I agree! 11:42:51 I just don't know that I'd recommend it. :-) 11:43:00 I probably wouldn't recommend against it either, without knowing more. 11:43:03 shachaf: Why? 11:43:09 "What is Scheme good for, beside introduction language to new programmers?" 11:43:17 Well I prefer CL, but I'd take a Scheme job too. 11:43:26 jennifer: everything! 11:43:46 jennifer: Why do you care? 11:43:47 shachaf, the good news is I have a background, so at least I'm comfortable with knowing that (remainder A) is also modulo in other language! :) 11:43:49 did I read "Scheme job"? 11:44:11 ventonegro: yes, they seem even rarer than CL jobs. 11:44:22 jennifer: Most mainstream languages are rather similar to each other and you can pick one up pretty easily. 11:44:24 that's what I thought. 11:44:38 jennifer: Some languages have different concepts, and that's a good deal more valuable to learn. 11:45:05 Nowadays, I see all non-lisp languages as DSL, and I only regret they're not implemented in lisp. 11:45:12 But let's say "you're a new programmer, so why wouldn't you use an introduction language to new programmers?". 11:45:36 pjb: I think that's a bit of a tarpit. 11:45:48 No, really, not. 11:45:53 Or do you mean something more than "you can express their syntax as s-expressions"? 11:45:58 first a lot of those languages were written in lisp originally. 11:46:07 Then any language needs to be written in a language, so why not lisp? 11:46:32 Wait, you mean "the compiler/interpreter is implemented in lisp"? 11:46:36 Yes. 11:46:58 Eh, this is a silly argument to get into. :-) 11:47:09 jennifer: http://matt.might.net/articles/best-programming-languages/ 11:47:21 It would be better if there was a s-exp version of their syntax, but only lispers can profit from that. So it doesn't matter if they have m-expr syntaxes. 11:47:32 you'll be fine with any of those you chlose 11:47:46 choose* 11:47:54 nice lapsus. 11:48:01 chlose. :-) 11:48:24 ventonegro, looks like an awesome read, I shall bookmark after I finish this chapter. Thank you. 11:48:28 it's a skill I have 11:52:18 *shachaf* contemplates putting in a plug for Haskell since it sort of came up. 11:53:57 tan(pi) is zero yet I get #i-1.2246063538223773e-16, I am not sure I understand this answer. Please help? 11:54:06 "It's untyped" (Matt Might on Scheme). I'm not sure what Matt means there. I'm sure he knows scheme has types. 11:54:34 jennifer: That number is very close to 0. 11:54:40 well, probably "dynamically-typed" 11:55:03 which is a shame, given that he is usually so precise 11:55:06 jennifer: Floating point "numbers", which is what's being used there, are approximate, and you get to deal with approximate answers when you use them. 11:55:32 (They're also not really "numbers" by most reasonable senses of the word. But they're kind of like numbers.) 11:55:33 I'm surprised you don't ahve to define the type to double or floats then. :) 11:55:52 jennifer: tan does it automatically! 11:56:21 jennifer: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 11:56:31 another bookmark for ya. 11:56:41 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-61-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:56:43 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 11:56:43 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:56:43 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 11:56:53 Even better! I love these kind of reads. 11:57:10 Floating points are insanity. 11:57:11 Alright, I have not slept for hours, when I wake up I will resume this, thank you guys! 11:57:54 shachaf: have a look at realib. Integrate it in your favorite scheme implementation. 11:57:55 jennifer: You can probably get an infinite-precision real library for Scheme that'll actually give you 0. 11:58:08 pjb: Hah. Yes. 11:58:42 shachaf: would it? or would you get a number infinitely close to zero? 11:58:50 ventonegro: It would get you 0. 11:59:04 Now, comparison isn't decidable on these numbers, of course. 11:59:09 So you might not be able to *tell* that it's 0. 11:59:13 I find this claim interesting. 11:59:14 But it's definitely 0. 11:59:38 Haskell has such a library for computable reals, CReal. 12:00:16 Haskellers eat creals with milk. 12:00:34 There are lots of representations you can use. 12:00:52 Something for me to try later, it seems. Maybe using MPFR. 12:01:02 For example, a function that takes a rational epsilon and gives you a rational number that's within epsilon of the real number. 12:01:22 Or an infinite sequence of digits. 12:02:10 Anyway, whatever representation you use, equality won't be decidable. :-) But it might be decidable in specific cases. 12:03:08 05:03 > (tan pi :: CReal) == 0 12:03:08 05:03 True 12:14:56 Does this channel have a bot that evaluates Scheme? 12:16:26 rudybot: (display "I am a bot") 12:16:27 LeoNerd: your sandbox is ready 12:16:27 LeoNerd: ; stdout: "I am a bot" 12:20:06 b4283 [~b4283@114-47-11-121.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 12:21:40 -!- tejaswidp is now known as Iamfromchina 12:23:40 Wow, CReal is such a scam. 12:30:48 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 12:40:34 -!- close-paren [~close-par@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:40:36 mmc1 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 12:41:04 close-paren [~close-par@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:46:33 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 12:51:14 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 12:52:36 ventonegro, mario-goulart: not everyone agrees that "dynamically typed" is more precise/correct 12:52:48 Gues_____ [~textual@101.224.19.129] has joined #scheme 12:53:00 objective-c 12:53:03 samth: which term would you use? 12:53:18 ventonegro: i say untyped 12:53:28 samth: but there are types 12:53:37 Or monotyped? ;-) 12:53:52 yay for Ecuador, BTW 12:54:07 fds: i think that's a true but unhelpful perspective 12:54:22 ventonegro: As long as it stands, at least 12:54:34 samth: *nod* 12:54:35 ventonegro: runtime tags are not the same as types 12:55:03 samth: you are going down to implementation details on this? seriously? 12:55:31 a "procedure" is a type, a "number" is another one 12:55:40 ventonegro: those are runtime tags 12:55:46 that's exactly what i mean 12:55:46 nope 12:55:55 those are types 12:56:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:57:05 GHC has support for "runtime types" these days! 12:57:19 By which I mean that it'll compile a program with a type error, and it'll fail at runtime when it reaches that error. 12:57:19 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 12:57:25 samth: what's the definition you are using for type? A statically determinable property of a program? 12:57:43 samth: ok, but "untyped" is definitely not correct, since it means "it has no types". 12:57:55 ventonegro: same question 12:58:08 What would "untyped" mean? 12:58:24 To me it means "no type" 12:58:25 I mean, what's an example of an untyped thing? 12:58:32 assembler 12:58:33 because unless you provide your definitions, I think you two are just going to be all "no, you're wrong" :P 12:58:44 samth: think of a set with the following property: X is in the set iff X is a procedure 12:58:53 samth: this magic set is called a type 12:59:31 ijp: pierce has a good definition at the beginning of TAPL, which says that a type system is a system for statically classifying the behavior of programs, or something like that 12:59:44 i would want to say that it should be compositional as well 13:00:15 ventonegro: how are you defining "is a procedure"? 13:00:52 shachaf: the new deferred type errors in GHC are not really like untyped languages at all 13:00:53 samth: it can be applied to arguments 13:00:59 samth: Agreed. :-) 13:01:10 I think of a dynamically typed language as everything being of a huge sum type. 13:01:17 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #scheme 13:01:36 shachaf: that's what fds was referring to about monotyped 13:01:45 Yep. 13:02:18 I think I stole my above semi-definition from PLAI 13:04:15 ijp: it's hard to make the distinction precise, but it's useful to distinguish types from other kinds of program analyses (such as OCFA) 13:05:09 OCFA? 13:05:10 ventonegro: is "can" there based on runtime behavior, or is it a static property, or something else? 13:05:20 I think 0CFA 13:05:29 shachaf: it's a kind of control flow analysis for higher order languages 13:05:37 or did i mistake O for 0 13:05:41 What does it stand for? 13:05:53 Oh, something Control Flow Analysis. 13:05:58 http://matt.might.net/articles/implementation-of-kcfa-and-0cfa/ 13:05:59 Yes, 0. 13:06:27 samth: usually at runtime, but in certain cases it can be determined at compilation time, because it's an implementation detail 13:07:14 ventonegro: i don't think you're really making this definition precise 13:07:30 but i think you're going for the "runtime tag" definition 13:07:52 samth: no, you want me to say that, which is merely an implementation detail 13:08:22 samth: types are very real in Scheme, just try to pass a string to `exp` 13:08:46 types define the domain and range of operators 13:08:47 well, this isn't a very productive conversation 13:08:48 samth: is there a reason for conflating untyped and dynamically typed? Assembler and Scheme are very different wrt types AFAIK. 13:08:52 samth: for example, racket has datatypes. So, I suppose it has types. Therefore, I suppose it is not untyped, right? 13:09:06 mario-goulart: no, i would say racket is untyped 13:09:23 and as lip said, convincing you is proving a futile endeavour 13:09:25 in fact, i wrote a paper with the word "untyped" in the title to refer to racket 13:09:35 so I give up 13:09:44 samth: I don't understand what part of my logic is wrong. Is it untyped because it has no types? 13:09:55 hkBst: yep 13:10:26 hkBst: assembler and scheme are indeed very different, but i don't think the differences are about types 13:10:55 mario-goulart: it's untyped because it doesn't statically classify programs to rule out some kinds of runtime errors 13:11:17 samth: one of the most marked differences is in this area, though :) 13:11:31 samth: what about http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/datatypes.html ? 13:11:45 Is it wrong? 13:12:08 mario-goulart: unfortunately, the word "type" is used to mean multiple things 13:12:34 Of course. 13:12:41 or perhaps its fortunate that english is so flexible 13:13:05 Yes, let's just call it thing. 13:13:12 Or stuff 13:13:16 or perhaps its fortunate that thing is so flexible 13:13:20 Personnaly I prefer unthinged things to thinged things. 13:13:52 I like cothings 13:14:02 I like contravariant things! 13:14:12 there are plenty of places where using "type" to mean "classification of data" is perfectly reasonable 13:15:17 pjb: hahahahhaa 13:15:24 however, if you're using "type" in the sense that ML has types as a static property, then Racket just doesn't have them 13:15:38 which is not a bad thing 13:16:07 i think the desire to use "dynamically-typed" instead of "untyped" is often from the sense that "untyped" suggests that something is lacking 13:16:28 or it's wrong. 13:16:54 shachaf: yeah but you are weird! 13:16:57 *FurnaceBoy* runz 13:17:11 Well, even assembler is typed. In assembler it's not the data that's typed in general, but the instructions. 13:17:23 In so called "statically typed" language, it's memory areas that are typed. 13:17:34 In "dynamically typed" languages it's the values that are typed. 13:17:47 "memory areas" are not part of the semantics of most languages! 13:17:56 pjb: that's just totally 100% wrong 13:17:58 shachaf: that's what "variable" means however. 13:18:06 ventonegro: it's "wrong" because you are ignoring his definition, and substituting your own 13:18:26 Not really. 13:18:26 ljp: so it seems mine is better. 13:18:31 sigh 13:18:35 pjb: can you explain what you mean by 'the instructions are typed'? they always operate on operands of the same kind in the same way? 13:18:49 pjb: that's not at all what 'variable' means 13:19:00 samth: I think you should distinguish (and untangle) between having types and actually trying to use types to deduce stuff about a program and produce warnings/errors/optimizations. Then there is the whole thing about how specific your types are: does the function type specify number of arguments, type of arguments, or... 13:19:09 Only lambda calculus would be untyped, since all values are of they type "function". 13:19:31 pjb: That's true of the typed lambda calculus too. 13:20:05 hkBst: there are many different type systems, but if you don't make distinctions in your function type it won't work very well 13:20:13 Well, they make subsets of functions in typed lambda calculus, I'd guess (I don't know I never read anything about typed lambda calculus). 13:21:40 samth: it's all about shifting errors from runtime to compile time or vice versa, but my point is there is a whole spectrum there between how much dynamic versus static use is made of available type information. And depending on that how much type information is provided in the first place. 13:22:31 hkBst: dynamic and static information are very different 13:22:40 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-25-246.dynamic.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:22:48 In Scheme function types don't include types of the arguments for example, because it is more dynamically inclined, but the type does include number of arguments. 13:22:53 Anyway, saying that scheme is "untyped" sounds blatantly wrong to me. "dynamically typed" sounds ok. 13:23:10 I think this is more an argument about words than people think. 13:23:19 Arguments about words are for the most part useless. 13:23:29 shachaf: this is what I've been trying to say 13:23:29 indeed, lisp is more typed than C: [3]"abnc", "abc"+2, etc 13:23:50 hkBst: I've always thought scheme was the most static "dynamic" language 13:23:58 pjb: Oh, that's just an inflammatory statement now. :-( 13:24:23 only truth is painful. 13:24:59 truth, and touching the stove 13:25:46 Also, if untyped is correct, http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/datatypes.html should be fixed. As well as most scheme documents. 13:25:50 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:25:51 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:27:25 hkBst: i don't think that the result of `procedure-arity` is a type 13:27:59 mario-goulart: "untyped" is correct when contrasting with "typed", which is not what that page is doing 13:29:08 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 13:29:35 samth: that page mentions datatypes. I suppose it meas "type of data". Since data can have type, I usppose it means "typed". 13:29:37 samth: I view function-arity as part of the type of the function. You can be more specific or less specific about function types. 13:30:15 If that simple logic is wrong, I give up. 13:30:18 hkBst: function types tell you about the arity of functions, but that doesn't mean that everything that tells you about the arity of functions is a function type 13:30:42 mario-goulart: being typed is a property of a language 13:31:25 samth: if a language has types it is typed, no? 13:31:56 Isn't it that simple? 13:31:56 mario-goulart: there are two meanings of the word "type" in use here 13:32:13 samth: well, in an untyped language you couldn't tell whther something was a function or not, in slightly more typed, maybe you know it is callable, slightly more typed, you know it accepts 3 or 5 arguments, more typed again, maybe you know that it likes its first argument to be a string or a function... etc 13:32:29 hkBst: i just disagree with your first clause there 13:32:47 in scheme, which is untyped, you can tell whether something is a function 13:32:53 by using `procedure?` 13:36:42 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 13:38:46 so a non-function and a function are different what? 13:39:31 samth: ^ 13:39:58 i don't know what you're saying 13:40:24 All y'all're still talking about the type thing? 13:41:07 samth: I think something like, "'a procedure and a non-procedure are different ____' -- fill in the blank with something other than 'type'" 13:41:19 jrslepak: thanks 13:41:50 jrslepak: things 13:41:55 heh 13:41:55 hkBst: they are different values? 13:41:58 shachaf: yeah, that's the types we are. 13:42:00 i don't know what you want 13:42:43 *jrslepak* thinks whatever word goes in the blank would probably also have to work for "a positive number and a negative number " 13:42:56 samth: but types are a way of grouping similar values... into types... 13:43:35 hkBst: no, types are a grouping on *expressions* according to the values they might produce 13:43:55 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:45:55 samth: after grouping values into types, you can surely extend types to expressions. 13:46:17 hkBst: grouping values and grouping expressions are radically different activities 13:46:22 hkBst: based on what? 13:46:29 which is the point i've been trying to make this whole time 13:47:04 jrslepak: based on the possible values of the expression? 13:47:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-25-246.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:28 what counts as a "possible value" of an expression? 13:47:29 jrslepak: the type of an expression is the union of the types of its possible values... 13:47:53 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-25-246.dynamic.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:48:29 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-25-246.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:31 jrslepak: I don't see how `counts' comes into it. Given an expression and values for its free variables you can say which its possible values are no? 13:49:03 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-25-246.dynamic.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:49:08 so how would you type a diverging expression? 13:49:58 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #scheme 13:51:54 hkBst: no, you can't, not computably 13:53:38 jrslepak: I don't know. I guess I could extend my type system with types for effects, divergence, io, etc... 13:53:56 -!- bigfg [~b_fin_g@r186-54-230-183.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:54:35 samth: so how DO you group expressions computably? 13:55:15 hkBst: by being conservative, and sometimes predicting things that don't really happen 13:57:56 alright, so the type of an expression is a conservativeestimate of the union of the types of its possible values... ? 13:58:27 if you're typing, of course 13:58:52 jrslepak: not typing is just the most conservative estimate 13:58:54 hkBst: or of some other property of the dynamic behavior of the expression 13:59:05 hkBst: no, not typing is not an estimate 13:59:37 if someone asks "how long does it take to get downtown from your house", and you say "i dunno, just try it" 13:59:41 that's not an estimate 14:00:31 -!- n1nsense is now known as ente 14:00:31 -!- ente [mrtoast@furnace.wzff.de] has quit [Changing host] 14:00:31 ente [mrtoast@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has joined #scheme 14:00:56 samth: it takes between 0 and oo seconds? 14:01:13 that's an estimate 14:01:24 a very conservative one 14:01:34 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.67.78] has joined #scheme 14:01:34 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.67.78] has quit [Changing host] 14:01:34 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 14:05:42 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:07:20 samth: alright, so when you say scheme is untyped, you mean its expressions are not typed (or no attempt is made to), even though its values may be. 14:08:14 hkBst: what i mean is that when you say "expressions are not typed<1>" and "values are typed<2>", then "typed<1>" and "typed<2>" are very different concepts 14:08:25 and scheme doesn't have concept "typed<1>" 14:08:57 i don't really think it's possible not to have the "typed<2>" concept 14:11:01 pjb: or do you mean that there are different operations for different types (e.g. MOV.W vs MOV.B etc) 14:19:42 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:24:21 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:25:57 -!- pepijn_away is now known as pepijndevos 14:30:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has joined #scheme 14:30:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has quit [Changing host] 14:30:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 14:31:30 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 14:33:29 hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:40:25 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:41:06 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 14:48:18 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:45 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-149-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: What happened to Systems A through E?] 15:08:23 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #scheme 15:09:20 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 15:15:58 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-235.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:27:32 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:33:10 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:34:48 langmart` [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 15:36:04 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:04 -!- langmart` is now known as langmartin 15:42:45 -!- close-paren [~close-par@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:44:41 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:46:29 close-paren [~close-par@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:50:12 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:57 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 15:55:01 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:58:13 -!- mmc1 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:02:16 samth: i think you can. Scheme "has" typed<1>... There's exactly one static type. 16:02:32 pjb: do you have me on ignore??? 16:02:36 rudybot: does he? 16:02:36 FurnaceBoy: I set them before, but he has more bits than me 16:02:50 -!- ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 16:02:57 close-paren: sure, you can say that, but i think it's not helpful for understanding things 16:03:11 Likewise, think of perl, where number and string are part of the same type<2> 16:03:22 Agreed 16:04:48 close-paren: you can always subdivide values arbitrarily (positive & negative numbers, etc) 16:05:15 True. 16:05:20 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:13 I just mean to say that in perl, if you subdivide that way, "2" never a string 16:06:47 I mean to say that the subdivisions may not be manifest in the language 16:10:33 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #scheme 16:13:07 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-235.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:19:19 -!- close-paren [~close-par@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:19:29 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:21:09 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 16:21:14 close-paren [~close-par@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:27:37 samth: i see what you mean now, thx 16:42:37 bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:43:49 -!- masm [~masm@bl18-42-242.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:12 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.42.138] has joined #scheme 17:13:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:14:44 ijp` [~user@host86-143-196-13.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:16:22 -!- ijp [~user@host109-154-207-255.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:16:34 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 17:18:27 -!- Iamfromchina [~tejaswidp@117.192.156.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:19:04 Iamfromchina [~tejaswidp@117.192.143.35] has joined #scheme 17:19:23 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-93.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 17:23:09 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:15 adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:11 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:27:56 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 17:35:12 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 17:39:12 Hello, I don't understand this: (convert-file "in.dat" Fahrenheit->Celsius "out.dat") What does this do? 17:39:34 From: http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-5.html#node_chap_2 17:39:49 -!- Iamfromchina [~tejaswidp@117.192.143.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:39:50 Hm, wait, never mind, please ignore. So wait, the name of the file is in.dat? 17:40:46 (* 5/9 (- t 32))), is this any different from (- t 32 (* 5/9))? 17:41:12 very different 17:41:23 How do I know which goes first? 17:41:31 phao [phao@177.160.118.99] has joined #scheme 17:41:53 I'm not sure I understand the question 17:42:24 if you find prefix arithmetic difficult, write it out on paper in infix first, and then convert 17:43:17 Hm, I meant which gets evaluated first? 17:43:35 What difference does it make? 17:44:34 I am not sure what you mean.. 17:46:14 (* 5/9 (- t 32)) -- *, 5/9, and (- t 32) get evaluated in some order (left to right if that's easiest for you), then you apply * (i.e. multiply) to the results of 5/9 and (- t 32) 17:46:17 jennifer, the first is (5/9)*(t-32), the second is t-32-(5/9) (note: (* x) = (* 1 x) = x). 17:46:39 or in short, order of operations is not order of evaluation :) 17:47:20 Hm.. 17:47:49 dzhus [~dzhus@95-24-202-97.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 17:48:45 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 17:52:50 Iamfromchina [~tejaswidp@117.192.147.178] has joined #scheme 17:57:12 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:58:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has joined #scheme 17:58:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has quit [Changing host] 17:58:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 18:16:28 masm [~masm@bl17-198-222.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 18:22:52 -!- Iamfromchina [~tejaswidp@117.192.147.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:29:19 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 18:29:19 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:29:19 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 18:30:39 is there something similar to ruby's rack for scheme ? 18:36:48 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40:53 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:45:27 cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-61-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 18:47:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has joined #scheme 18:47:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has quit [Changing host] 18:47:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 18:48:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:48:34 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has joined #scheme 18:48:49 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has quit [Client Quit] 18:48:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 18:49:27 -!- spanner [~quassel@128.249.96.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:49:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 18:50:25 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD604E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:50:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 18:51:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has joined #scheme 18:51:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.60.110] has quit [Changing host] 18:51:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 18:54:01 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-25-246.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:58:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:59:26 -!- b4283 [~b4283@114-47-11-121.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:06 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-60-41.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 19:05:57 spanner [~quassel@128.249.96.10] has joined #scheme 19:09:43 For 2.2.4, what is it asking me, just to reverse the numbers? http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-5.html 19:10:08 pjb: for serious. 19:10:17 -!- FurnaceBoy is now known as qu1j0t3 19:14:53 jennifer: no, not "just". 19:15:06 jennifer: the problem you have is that you don't know the distinction between "digit" and "number". 19:16:00 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:10 This is really strange, because it's the foundation of the decimal (any base actually) representation of numbers. Are you still using only Roman numerals? 19:16:56 pjb: Is that the most likely explanation? 19:17:16 I think so. How else would you explain this ignorance? 19:17:35 I was taught bases, digits and numbers in primary school. 19:17:38 I guess I don't know what significant digit means. 19:18:07 000123 = 00123 = 0123 = 123. So the prefix 0s are not significant. 19:18:27 I see. 19:18:28 1.23 = 1.230 = 1.2300 = 1.23000 So the suffix 0s are not significant either. 19:18:39 But here it's only about integers. 19:19:29 The least significant digit is the digit with the smallest weight. This is the digits that is multiplied by the base to the power 0, ie. by 1, when computing the number. 19:19:56 321 = 3*10^2+2*10^1+1*10^0=3*100+2*10+1*1=300+20+1=321. 19:20:14 Ooh. 19:20:19 Thank you. I understand now. 19:20:52 Otherwise, I'm just critizing the education system you went thru. 19:21:04 It's alright. 19:21:16 jennifer: Did you try to look up the terms you didn't understand? 19:22:35 jennifer: you may be interested in Honer's formula http://math.fullerton.edu/mathews/n2003/hornermod.html 19:22:51 321 = (((3*10)+2)*10)+1 19:23:07 it requires less computation than 3*10^2+2*10^1+1*10^0. 19:23:46 But then, to apply it you will have to reverse the list of digits, since honer's formula takes digits from the most significant first down to the least significant lat. 19:23:47 last 19:24:23 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-198-222.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:30:16 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-161.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 19:33:48 leppie [~leppie@196-210-165-161.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:33:49 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.129.125] has joined #scheme 19:33:56 leppie_ [~leppie@196-210-165-161.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:48:53 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 19:53:46 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:51 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:07 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:03:27 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:12:25 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-60-41.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:19:58 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-60-41.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 20:24:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.42.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 20:31:22 bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-52-159-252.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 20:32:38 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.129.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32:58 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:34:16 -!- leppie [~leppie@196-210-165-161.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:34:17 -!- leppie_ [~leppie@196-210-165-161.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:35:22 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-161.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:38:58 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.134.25] has joined #scheme 20:39:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:41:28 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.134.25] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:08 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 20:43:26 -!- jennifer [~jennifer@unaffiliated/jennifer] has quit [Quit: jennifer] 20:43:46 -!- hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:44:37 -!- ijp [~user@host86-143-196-13.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:48:47 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-93.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:42 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:29 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-192-22.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:04:06 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:09:55 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:17:28 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD604E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:18:03 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:18:56 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-25-246.dynamic.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:19:52 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD604E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:20:07 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:21:17 z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has joined #scheme 21:21:17 -!- z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:21:17 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 21:30:27 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:01 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:14 doomrobo [~michael@cpe-72-225-251-161.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:51:56 can somebody here please explain why this gives me an undefined reference and how I would go about making this work? http://pastebin.com/u2zK9UAH 21:52:04 the error is reference to an identifier before its definition: a 21:52:38 doomrobo: look up "hygenic macros" 21:53:07 I need dirty macros 21:53:11 jao [~user@164.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:53:18 -!- jao [~user@164.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:53:18 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 21:53:29 one that does add identifiers to the lexical scope of the body 21:53:33 is that possible? 21:54:40 doomrobo: Yes, but please don't do that. 21:54:51 Better would be to pass `a' to the macro. 21:54:54 I have to, it's for a really dumb project of mine 21:54:59 Everything would still be hygienic. 21:55:05 not good enough 21:56:00 Why not? 21:56:18 because I'm attempting to write perl in scheme *sob* 21:56:25 I mean, you can do it unhygienically, but it's likely to bite you in the ass later on. 21:56:36 doomrobo, you can add a "keyword" in the syntax definition 21:56:43 rudybot: doc datum->syntax 21:56:44 stamourv: your sandbox is ready 21:56:45 stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/stxops.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._datum-~3esyntax)) 21:56:49 and make a rule "whenever this keyword is seen, i will use this a I defined" 21:56:50 doomrobo: ^ 21:57:12 But remember: everytime you use it, $DEITY kills a kitten. 21:57:22 I can live with that 21:57:31 Syntax parameters might be a better choice before you go for unhygienic bindings. 21:57:44 (set! asumu (add1 asumu)) 21:58:02 stamourv, so how would I use a keyword to do that? 21:58:13 stamourv: you and your mutation ;) 21:58:18 (see http://barzilay.org/misc/stxparam.pdf for details) 21:58:32 I think phao was talking about literals, as in `syntax-rules''s literals list. 21:58:58 But yeah, syntax parameters are actually a clean solution to that. 21:59:26 yeah 21:59:29 stamourv, can you make an equivalent of what I was trying to do on a pastebin as an example? I'm totally lost 21:59:46 I was talking about the stuff you give to (syntax-rules (......) ...) 22:00:00 phao: That's the literals list. 22:00:02 I get that but not how you'd use it 22:00:27 doomrobo: I can't right now, I heading out of the office in ~5 minutes. 22:00:33 ok 22:00:36 (And going on vacation :D) 22:00:42 stamourv, I just realized too that it'd be really messy to use it, unless he added some constraints 22:00:43 have fun 22:00:56 Thanks! 22:02:14 -!- stamourv is now known as stamourv-away 22:05:02 stamourv-away: have a good vacation :) 22:06:32 datum->syntax + let-syntax = auto rewriting ;p 22:06:47 the dirty way 22:10:06 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: What happened to Systems A through E?] 22:14:17 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 22:14:21 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:15:23 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 22:20:36 foof: with the new unblocking repl, read-u8 returns eof-object if the port is not ready for reads, is this the expected behaviour? 22:32:11 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-69-133-27-32.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:21 -!- close-paren [~close-par@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:36:02 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:04 kuribas` [~user@94-227-93-194.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 22:36:16 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:36:18 ASau` [~user@95-26-148-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:36:18 close-paren [~close-par@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:37:12 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-234-167.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:30 pothos [~pothos@114-36-234-167.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 22:37:49 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-148-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:29 -!- kuribas [~user@94-227-93-194.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:19 -!- kuribas` [~user@94-227-93-194.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:50:17 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:50:17 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:52:39 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-60-41.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:00:04 -!- treefor [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 23:00:23 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:05:05 -!- sizz [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:02 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-149-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:08:04 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 23:08:15 sizz [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:38:51 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:42:42 tizoc: no 23:43:15 can you file a bug? 23:59:59 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD604E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]