00:00:46 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:03:05 lcc: CLRS, AIMA, TAOCP. 00:03:41 That's the gradus ad parnassum, Mensch. 00:05:40 By Muzio Clementi? 00:06:33 Or the Debussy version? 00:07:36 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 00:08:03 antoszka: The literal version, in which one is ascending to Tithorea and Lycoreia; or to the seats of Apollo and Bacchus, respectively, attaining both discipline and genius. 00:08:19 *FurnaceBoy* is in early stages of AIMA now 00:08:48 TAOCP, well, there's the rest of your life, right there :) 00:08:54 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-131-161.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:09:10 FurnaceBoy: There's some good stuff there; though I do find it the intelligent agent thing a little strange: do we really have to couch search problems in terms of little anthropomorphic things? 00:09:30 klutometis: it is an odd kind of book. 00:09:41 klutometis: i'm doing PAIP as well, sort of, so will compare. 00:10:28 FurnaceBoy: Oh, nice; I started PAIP, but switched horses mid-stream, so to speak. 00:10:31 Let me know what you find. 00:10:50 klutometis: the kind of apologetic lapse into pseudocode in AIMA sort of leaves it out of the saddle too 00:11:04 Heh 00:11:09 klutometis: one could imagine the publisher ordering, "Get rid of all the Common Lisp, it scares people away" 00:11:39 Good point; plus, who knows what Russell's bias is. 00:14:38 Looks like he's the maintainer for aima-lisp, on the other hand; so maybe he's a protagonist. 00:15:00 klutometis: i try to pick who's writing which bit. not knowing Norvig well enough, I can't really. 00:15:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:17 FurnaceBoy: Yeah; it's tough for me, too. 00:15:31 klutometis: but one or both of them has a sly sense of humour, which is nice. 00:15:31 The pseudo-code and the Lisp implementation are both mutation-heavy artifacts. 00:15:35 Heh 00:15:38 klutometis: yeah, that's unfortunate too. 00:16:04 oh well i guess we'll have to wait for Quadrescence 's masterful synthesis 00:16:15 Christ, I had no idea Russell was a professor or Neurosurgery and CS. 00:16:23 FurnaceBoy: Oh, what's he working on? 00:16:42 what 00:16:47 M-x goldfish-mode 00:17:04 Quadrescence: u gonna fix the flawz of PAIP + AIMA for us rite? and SICP while you're at it. 00:17:25 YEAH NO PROBLEM 00:17:33 FurnaceBoy, i set up my booque writing environment again 00:17:46 o 00:18:17 klutometis: well nominally a book on Computer Algebra. But he's easily distractable. 00:18:31 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:20:49 yes very easily :( 00:20:58 im working on it though! 00:21:44 klutometis: i tried to seduce him into a "Modern SICP" with some of the kinks straightened 00:22:44 FurnaceBoy: That's cool; what kind of kinks? 00:24:30 klutometis: it is a little uneven ... and sometimes gets weirdly obsessive about tangential stuff. not that I am really qualified to judge. 00:25:07 klutometis: a couple of the exercises, in my opinion, are tossed off a little too quickly... there are points at which a lot of people stumble 00:25:36 it's still a great work , of course. 00:25:39 *FurnaceBoy* genuflects 00:26:56 and there just have been fundamental developments since its tiem 00:26:58 time 00:27:06 Quadrescence: such as? 00:27:14 error handling 00:27:33 program verification (type checking) 00:27:45 ah yes 00:28:02 explicit data structures (abstract types... this is treated lightly in SICP, where data types are punned as lists) 00:28:08 What's that book similar in flavour to SICP but that uses the Oz language called? (Apologies for the previous sentence) 00:28:26 whoa, uses Oz? interestin' 00:28:27 Seem to remember that being touted as a modern SICP 00:28:32 Concepts Techniques And Models Of Computer Programming 00:28:35 ^ 00:28:42 Thanks Quadrescence 00:28:43 Van Roy and Haridi 00:30:54 Despite SICP's quirks, it still sure as hell beats my first year uni programming textbook called Objects First with Java. 00:31:12 -!- imphasing [~Alex@97-81-65-25.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:35:42 chturne: oh, yes. I wish i'd read it 20 years ago. 00:35:51 chturne: but I didn't have Quadrescence to prod me into it 00:37:43 I seem to remember having a good old chuckle at SICP's treatment of concurrency as well. :-) 00:38:54 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-131-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:40:25 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.109.50] has quit [Quit: zzzZZZ] 00:41:49 chturne: ah yes we can perhaps add that to Quadrescence 's list 00:43:32 already added to my top 10 00:46:26 Quadrescence: >.< 00:47:00 Quadrescence: static typing is so dumb though. It takes all day to get stuff to compile! Why do that when I can skip straight to running it. 00:47:02 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-211-180.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:47:25 *chturne* slaps FurnaceBoy with a wet trout 00:47:32 ;-)) 00:47:36 :) 00:47:46 *FurnaceBoy* shouldn't shamelessly troll in here 00:48:00 yeah and static typing makes my program less functional. i can't suddenly use nil everywhere 00:49:07 Quadrescence: you can if you use Java! 01:03:27 rbarraud [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:04:02 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:49 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-211-180.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:11:06 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 01:12:38 -!- masm [~masm@bl18-58-181.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:13:00 tertl4 [~tertl3@108-85-16-151.lightspeed.gnvlsc.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:57 -!- Dalek_Baldwin 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[realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ayonvevcreoalogq] has joined #scheme 14:52:59 imphasing [~Alex@97-81-65-25.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 15:00:57 tupi [~david@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 15:03:14 is there a general 'case'? Like (case string=? "str" ((datum1 ..) exp ...)) 15:03:51 Perhaps in a library. In CL there are some in libraries. 15:04:20 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE39425.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:05:08 hmm 15:05:20 -!- realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ayonvevcreoalogq] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:05:24 fbs: how about `match'? 15:05:40 never heard of it, let me look 15:06:09 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.223.84] has joined #scheme 15:06:09 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.223.84] has quit [Changing host] 15:06:09 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 15:08:55 realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-yktchvhcaotaujaj] has joined #scheme 15:09:59 hkBst: hmm, i was hoping there is something a bit simpler 15:11:14 fbs: then it should be simple enough to write a macro to do what you want... 15:12:41 bb2m 15:12:45 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:12:46 hkBst: just wanted to make sure there isn't anything better before I write my macro for it 15:13:18 -!- bipt [~bpt@rrcs-98-101-11-199.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:16:42 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:17:23 bipt [~bpt@rrcs-98-101-11-199.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:20:45 keenbug [~daniel@p4FE39425.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:21:15 arcfide [~arcfide@c-71-201-31-55.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:25:49 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.129.178] has joined #scheme 15:27:48 -!- bipt [~bpt@rrcs-98-101-11-199.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:27:59 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:28:39 -!- phao [phao@187.1.240.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:59 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE39425.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:30:54 phao [phao@187.91.99.3] has joined #scheme 15:32:30 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-149-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:32:40 vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@122.167.212.13] has joined #scheme 15:36:06 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:38:14 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-31-173.dynamic.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:40:15 phao_ [phao@177.174.106.157] has joined #scheme 15:41:02 -!- phao [phao@187.91.99.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:19 phao [phao@177.174.106.157] has joined #scheme 15:45:43 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-161.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 15:46:07 -!- phao_ [phao@177.174.106.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:47:43 hello folks, just reading about macros. i'm little confused about the different 'times 15:47:50 'times' in the documents 15:48:05 like compilation-time, expansion-time, run-time 15:49:07 is there a recommended document if i want to know more on the subject? 15:50:10 you can take a look at compilers/interpreters and jit compilation 15:50:30 reading the wiki pages about that should give some info 15:51:34 b4283: it's confusing, because those "times" can be embedded. 15:52:31 compilation-time, is when the compiler is compiling. 15:53:53 When the compiler compiles, it encounters macro calls, and therefore calls the macro function to expand those macro calls into the resulting form, and then it compiles instead the resulting form (it can also contain macros, the process is re-iterated). 15:54:08 ah 15:54:11 So you can have macro-expansion time embedded in compilation-time. 15:55:05 run-time is when you execute the program. 15:55:12 so the difference is really implementational ? 15:55:57 But since the program can call eval, the compiler may be called at run-time. So you can have a compilation-time embedded in the run-time. 15:56:01 because maybe one could delay macro-expansion until run-time 15:56:22 Or, if eval is just an interpreter, it will have to expand macros too, so you can have directly macro-expansion time embeded in run-time. 15:57:00 so the terms are general for compilers or interpreters, i see 15:57:45 fbs, pjb: thanks for the help, i think i know where to dig now 15:57:47 b4283: Well, I don't think r5rs enforces anything there. In Common Lisp, CL:COMPILE must implement a minimal compilation that involves expanding all macros, but CL:EVAL can indeed expand the macros each time they're called, which gives nice results in a loop. (but implementations usually cache the result of the macro expansions). 15:58:19 One purpose of compiling is to expand macros so that you don't lose time with them at run-time. 15:59:47 pjb: currently i feel scheme's macro is somewhat different than CL's 16:00:22 In theory, yes. But in practice, there may be little difference. 16:00:45 CL's macro requires one to write in quoted forms, and some of the code are evaluated before the macro definition 16:00:57 The principle is the same: you have user code that is called by the compiler to substitute one form by another. 16:01:05 okay 16:01:12 There's no relation between quote or backquote and macros. 16:01:50 (defmacro when (cond &body body) (list (intern "IF") cond (cons (intern "PROGN") body))) 16:01:55 See, no quote, no backquote. 16:01:59 huh, then i was wrong about CL too. :/ 16:03:12 It's probably a good idea to look also at what CL says about those times (it also has a read-time), and their relations. EVAL-WHEN, reader macros, compiler macros, macros, EVAL, COMPILE, COMPILE-FILE. 16:04:13 read-time for reader macro? 16:05:22 btw i was once curious if one could do a reader macro with scheme 16:06:26 it is not standardized. 16:06:42 Indeed user code can be executed at read-time, to parse reader macros. 16:07:27 compiler-macros are user defined functions that are executed at compilation time to substitute function calls by other forms. 16:07:50 They can be used to write optimizations, depending eg. on the arguments. 16:12:37 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.202.22.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:07 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:20:13 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-59-13.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 16:21:59 -!- masm [~masm@bl18-45-51.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:28:09 -!- bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-52-180-156.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:36:33 masm 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