00:02:56 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:05:09 -!- ssbr` is now known as ssbr 00:07:10 -!- b4283 [~user@114-47-12-74.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:10 -!- tessier_ [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:21:46 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 00:31:10 -!- spionHL [~spion@89.205.110.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:33:58 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:34:52 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:39:03 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #scheme 00:44:16 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-179-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:53:18 __dict__ [~jake@c-24-22-211-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:59:49 b4283 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 01:01:56 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-163.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:02:34 -!- imphasing [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has quit [Quit: YOLO MOVIES BRAH] 01:09:46 robolobster54 [~robolobst@138.Red-88-31-47.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:16 ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-39-185.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:35 Can I write a full scheme implementation purely with lambdas and nothing else? 01:10:46 Yes. 01:12:27 pjb: Lists/pairs? Continuations? Hygenic macros? Tail recursion? Numeric tower? etc. 01:12:36 Everything. 01:12:40 s/Hygenic/Hygienic 01:14:19 Aethaeryn: notice there's no notion of stack in lambda calculus, so no notion of tail recursion. But that doesn't prevent you to implement it for your scheme of course. 01:15:28 pjb: theory only or would it work in http://paste.lisp.org/display/130147 too? 01:16:11 It would probably be slow, it but would work. 01:16:41 carleastlund [~cce@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:16:57 -!- carleastlund [~cce@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:00 -!- republican_devil [~g@pool-108-13-142-14.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:18:58 pjb: cool... you should publish that on quicklisp 01:19:07 There seems to be a lot of interest on IRC in lambda calculus recently 01:19:12 Based on my very limited sample size 01:19:26 Aethaeryn: it comes in waves of students :-) 01:19:57 Noted, I'll think of including it to my repository so that quicklisp can get it. 01:21:06 Is there a good refernece on lambda calculus? Amazon recommends http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Functional-Programming-Calculus-Mathematics/dp/0486478831/ based on just two positive reviews! 01:21:07 http://tinyurl.com/bwhamoa 01:22:10 I don't know, I just browsed the web. Wikipedia article is nice. 01:22:18 Based on the price, most of these "lambda calculus" results seem to be textbooks 01:22:22 i.e. everything except that $15 book 01:22:58 (Yes, the most reliable reference for (textbook? book-on-amazon) seems to be price, since they can charge whatever they want for textbooks.) 01:24:01 ah, hmm, there's surprisingly a lot about lambda calculus on Wikipedia 01:24:33 Wikipedia usually (at least historically) tends to suck with math stuff. 01:24:51 Aethaeryn: the best mathematicians don't use computers. 01:25:06 Wikipedia is strong in the domains where people use computers and the Internet. 01:25:18 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:25:25 Idk. Free articles seem to do better than articles about proprietary software. 01:25:39 Grigori Perelman wrote ZERO wikipedia articles. 01:25:59 Wikipedia isn't appropriate for mathematicians wanting to do original research. 01:26:03 Aethaeryn: that's because proprietary programmers don't use the Internet as much as free programmers. 01:26:04 They have a No Original Research, for one. 01:26:07 They're also anti-elitist. 01:26:33 Well, you can publish and then the research is no more original :-) 01:26:52 Aethaeryn | Is there a good refernece on lambda calculus? // Quadrescence can probably answer that. 01:26:52 pjb: Oh, I think the no nonfree images except really scaled down and for strict fair use purposes helps too 01:27:25 Screenshots are copyrighted, I frequently see good screenshots of proprietary programs get scaled down (with old versions deleted from their database) or entirely removed 01:27:51 Aethaeryn: anyways, in 50 years, all proprietary information will be forgotten. The only thing that will remain in history will be free software, free documentation, free books, free movies, etc. 01:27:55 Look at, e.g. articles about the planets. It helps to have free or public domain images. 01:28:24 pjb: Mainly because no one else is sufficiently concerned about preserving source code! 01:28:39 They want to *protect* it, which is actually the worst thing you can do from an historical perspective! 01:28:40 Exactly. 01:29:28 Even if Github goes out of business or gets acquired at some point between now and 2050, I'm sure the that someone will export just about everything public, or at the very least the useful stuff 01:29:58 I'm on gitorious.ORG 01:30:26 The kind of stuff you wrote with lambda calculus, giving a natural language processing web frontend like Wolfram Alpha and expanded to include, well, all interesting math and theoretical computer science, would be a nice Wolfram Alpha competitor. 01:31:07 Wolfram-Alpha *cannot* take off like Wikipedia has because it has to focus on the bottom line, profit. They've already made it considerably worse in their latest redesign, with intrusive ads, uncopyable text without registering, premium features, integration into their overpriced Mathematica, etc. 01:31:26 The exact same thing except MIT/BSD/etc. licensed with openly licensed database stuff would take off and dominate the Internet imo 01:31:38 Wolfram is a catastrophe. 01:32:11 Oh, an open API is necessary too. Even the old, not annoying-you-to-monetize, Wolfram-Alpha rate-limited the API to something absurdly low 01:32:33 As in, only 100 free a month or something 01:32:45 Well, all I can say is that I never got any useful information from Wolfram Alpha. 01:32:50 Mathematica is a bigger problem than Alpha; it's had 24 years to fester. 01:33:06 The FSF is too... backwards-oriented. It's focusing on BIOS, not websites. 01:33:10 On the other hand, just asking natural language questions to google gives pages with the answer 95% of the time. 01:33:21 Aethaeryn: there's the AGPL3. 01:33:40 -!- robolobster54 [~robolobst@138.Red-88-31-47.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:34:22 It's actually unnecessary to use something like the AGPL3 for a free alternative to Wolfram-Alpha. I sincerely doubt that anyone could steal the Wikipedia of databases and math. 01:36:11 It also would be really easy to violate on a website. You'd have to keep the available source and the code you use to serve the pages/application in sync at all moments or else you're breaking the license. 01:36:36 I've considered the AGPL in the past. 01:40:38 -!- ssbr [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:41:17 It's just... not really used. 01:42:48 I use it. 01:42:53 hmm.... 01:43:40 pjb: On the one hand the only threat I can see is Google, and on the other hand Google is probably sufficiently powerful enough to write their own and integrate it natively in Google search. 01:44:01 To a community alternative to Wolfram-Alpha 01:44:27 T 01:44:33 They don't use lisp code AFAIK. 01:44:44 A lot of company won't use lisp code, this is an additionnal protection :-) 01:44:48 Yes. 01:44:54 I can add that to the list of barriers to entry. 01:45:08 But I think the biggest barrier to entry would be "the database" 01:45:22 How large is Wikipedia's database? 01:45:39 A couple of GB. 01:45:56 only? Oh, I guess they spun off multimedia to the Commons mostly 01:46:08 Well compressed, yes. 01:46:15 You don't need the full history and discussions, etc. 01:46:18 Compression isn't good with multimedia 01:46:24 Well, most compression 01:46:47 I only really use gzip, bz2, and xz (and that's one more than most people). 01:47:08 You're not on the .7z bandwagon? ;-) 01:47:35 ancestral: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xz 01:47:39 The game is to find a wikipedial specific compression algorithm. 01:47:52 ancestral: You can think of xz as like 7zip, but Unix-native. e.g. it works only on one file, such as a tar file 01:48:15 For a moment there, for just a moment there, I thought it said lossy data compression 01:48:21 And it has a decent commandline, unlike 7za 01:48:24 (the 7zip port) 01:50:20 You can also get things like pxz and lbzip2 as alternative multi-threaded (i.e. faster on quadcores) compatable versions for xz/bz2 01:50:23 which counts for a lot 01:54:42 There's quite a few sites using the agpl, iirc? 01:55:15 Mediagoblin, Status.net, and Maybe Diaspora? 01:55:17 http://osrc.blackducksoftware.com/data/licenses/ 01:55:27 413 AGPL projects tracked on this site, but I don't know the total 01:56:01 I still have doubts about the "cloud"... 01:56:47 youlysses: Don't have doubts about the cloud. JavaScript/HTML/CSS is now the lowest common denominator... you can expect it on every machine: phone, tablet, laptop, netbook, toothbrush, whatever 01:56:51 On all OSes 01:57:01 And yes, it sucks that JavaScript is the lowest common denominator 01:57:02 :-P 01:57:37 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:57:58 Aethaeryn: I'm have no issuse storing a copy of my information on a server (that I own), but it's having to be attatched to the net to use my device... 01:58:10 Yes. 01:58:24 Aethaeryn: And same could be said about C, language wise ... :-P 01:58:29 The thing is, platforms don't win out because they're elegant to people who know what they're doing. 01:58:37 e.g. PCs won out out of all the possibilities from the 1980s 01:59:02 Aethaeryn: PC is a generic term 01:59:04 And we have Unix or NT for OS choices (the only exception I think is Blackberry's OS) 01:59:07 It's always the same, it's WHO you know. 01:59:11 Aethaeryn: Are you saying personall computers or mirlosoft computers? 01:59:13 PC knew accountants. 01:59:19 ancestral: IBM PC compatable clones ;-P 01:59:23 Oh okay 01:59:25 Bill Gate's mother knew somebody at IBM. 01:59:30 etc. 01:59:32 ancestral: And the Wintel descendents 01:59:36 I was going to say, servers weren't popular for consumers, but they were for biz 01:59:39 ancestral: Which puts the newer Macs in that category 01:59:51 I suppose Atari consoles might not have been PCs 01:59:51 Yes, it's ambiguous 02:00:31 Aethaeryn: Windows and Unix-like system, in the begining. for the most part had diffrent audiences. :-P 02:01:03 *Excluding Mac's Ol' Os of course. :-P 02:02:41 I guess is, if you want to employ on the platform of 5-10 years from now, you probably want to make it run nicely in the browser, and on mobile/tablet form factors (even if the winner in the latter doesn't exist, it will almost certainly have a browser that runs webkit or Firefox). 02:02:50 s/employ/deploy 02:02:56 fireworks outside my window distracted me 02:03:50 Yes, tablets mostly suck for creating content. No, desktops won't go away (I built one myself that's nice, even though netbooks/laptops were supposed to kill desktops years ago) 02:04:34 And yes, most of us will probably still be using emacs 02:06:34 Aethaeryn: No, current consumer-grade tablets suck at content creation. Once we get cheap convertiable tablets, i'll be sure to switch. I'd love a solid system that I could doodle in mypaint, but then be able to yes, go into emacs. :-) 02:06:52 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 02:07:06 It'll probably always suck on iOS. 02:07:17 Desktops will never die out though, that I agree with. But their user scale will dramaticlly shrink. 02:08:28 pjb: Well yeah, that's a "mobile OS" (Also it's an Apple product). I like the way GNOME3 is going where it's the "best-of-both-worlds". 02:09:10 youlysses: There will always be enough hardcore gamers and enough servers to allow for build-your-own desktop parts. Now, maybe consumer desktops will just be all-in-one touchscreen desktops or something that kinda suck, but, those have a certain MS tax anyway. 02:09:41 Desktops can be awesome, you just need to know what you're doing. 02:09:52 -!- arbn [~arbn@pool-74-98-200-128.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:10:03 Aethaeryn: I hate the windows tax ... I can't believe they removed the garuntee in the Eula agian ... 02:10:58 Aethaeryn: Oh, they can. But 9/10 they're over kill for any casual users that aren't gamers, or computer scientests, engineers, or the like. 02:11:15 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 02:11:38 oh yes 02:12:00 I only max out my machine with... basically parallel compression and code compiling. 02:12:11 (It's 8-threaded, although quadcore) 02:13:37 The only reason other form factors exist are because you don't need maximum performance for most tasks 02:14:34 Aethaeryn: Other form factors of desktops like all-in-ones, or other computers...? 02:14:48 I mean, phone or even laptop 02:15:20 You sacrifice power and/or price (i.e. pay more for the same thing) the smaller you get. 02:15:24 In general. 02:15:37 I wouldn't say that's the main driving factor. I'd say mobilbility is one of the biggest. 02:15:41 If desktops were *not* overkill for most tasks, you couldn't enjoy a tablet that wasn't $5,000 02:16:18 And it seems like the demand is targeted closer to $200 02:17:38 Eh, more so around 400-500 from what I've seen. :-P 02:17:54 youlysses: Anyway, I think my original argument is that you'd want to target portable (i.e. for all major platforms) browser code if you want an end-user oriented application, which was the whole Wolfram-Alpha alternative, which is in itself a website (although it also has app and in-Mathematica forms) 02:18:02 I think we're getting a bit off topic for #scheme 02:18:17 Aethaeryn: True. 02:18:45 youlysses: I was referring to the Kindle Fire. The iPad has a natural branding and ecosystem advantage right now. 02:18:53 It's not a generic tablet in the minds of most people. 02:19:19 Clearly, Google's attempting to test the hypothesis that I am repeating (I didn't come up with it, obviously) with the Nexus 7 02:19:24 Aethaeryn: I'm talking about a 10' tablet, not nesscarily an iPAD. 02:19:35 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:20:18 pjb: I think aethaeryn-lambda would be a good alternative to wolfram-alpha. ;-P 02:20:29 The name I mean. 02:21:05 And yes, it's a joke. That Wolfram guy likes to put his name on things. 02:21:44 Most company names are the name of a guy who liked to put his names on his things. 02:22:23 Mr. Apple, Mr. Google, and Mike R. Soft disagree 02:23:03 Aethaeryn: I just don't trust companies enough for me to ever live/develop strickly for the web ... 02:24:14 Goldman & Sach, Barclays, Honeywell, Bull, Edison, etc. 02:24:19 youlysses: I think there's pretty simple rule to avoid violations of trust... no advertisements. 02:24:56 youlysses: Advertisements kill APIs to drive traffic to the main site (Twitter), degrade the user experience over time by being increasingly intrusive (Facebook), collect lots of data on people that would otherwise be useless (Google, Facebook, etc.) 02:25:12 youlysses: Wikipedia gets by without ads. I wonder if a for profit company could do it. 02:25:41 Ads seems... 1990 bubblish. "(1) Get big quickly. (2) Add more and more advertisements in increasingly intrusive ways over time. (3) ??? (4) Profit." 02:26:11 pjb: Well, finance is a world of its own. 02:26:21 pjb: Though they're probably close to law too. In law, everything's named after someone. 02:26:32 At least in the US 02:26:35 Aethaeryn: I doubt it. Any company providing a service, for gratis, and not selling advirtisments is well, not going to be a company for long. What model could they use that would fall in those means ... 02:27:33 The growth of the web, and the sucess sites like Google, and Facebook has ALOT to do with them being gratis. 02:27:36 youlysses: There obviously has to be a middle ground between pay-for-content (impractical with so much competition on the net) and cover-site-with-ads. 02:27:50 The middle ground could be profitable percisely because no one thinks it exists! 02:27:52 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-250-130.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:28:29 Aethaeryn: Companies hosting faif software web services on their servers? 02:28:46 It's always possible that they could charge for some services and not others. 02:29:15 Red Hat makes money although they give the source of their product away (and it gets regularly cloned by both CentOS *and* the giant Oracle) 02:29:41 I mean, if Oracle can't kill Red Hat, that's saying something. Only a Microsoft Enterprise Linux based on RHEL would be more... enterprisey. 02:30:47 Aethaeryn: Eh, but that's mainly buisness who buy it. (To a large scale it's also support). I don't think my mum would pay for something like FB, or Google. :-/ 02:31:08 Aethaeryn: that's not the criteria. Hewlett Packard, etc. 02:31:13 youlysses: Right, but if you built something extremely complex like pjb and I were discussing earlier, I *think* at the very least there'd be university applications 02:31:15 It's a question of date. 02:31:25 pjb: yes, but also consider IBM 02:31:35 "university applications"? 02:31:41 When people had money and could create company by themselves, they named those companies after themselves. 02:31:57 youlysses: Universities overpay for things like Mathematica, Matlab, and Maple. 02:31:59 Severely overpay. 02:32:20 Nowadays, if you want to create a company you must get the money from investor and you know that eventually you'll be minoritary or bought, so the name is fancy. 02:32:45 Aethaeryn: Why not support faif alternatives... ? 02:33:02 RITRedbeard__ [~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:33:14 pjb: Bill Gates owned a controlling share of Microsoft when it went public, I think. That's why he's considerably richer (and in control in the 1990s) than Jobs was. 02:33:30 Also, I know Zuckerberg has most of the controlling share of FB 02:33:34 You'h think UNIs would jump on GNU Octave ... :-L 02:33:39 Aethaeryn: IBM was named Hollerith initially. 02:33:42 It's Facebook, not Zuckbook 02:34:03 Aethaeryn: he got his money from investors. Recently. 02:34:44 pjb: Okay, you win, it's (list 'era 'industry 'self-funding) 02:35:26 youlysses: Octave is an API-level clone, but iirc it's considerably slower. *Students* (who don't pirate and who know enough about it) have switched to Octave for homeworks. 02:35:36 -!- woonie [~woonie@bb121-7-16-181.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:35:38 Universities move slowly, too 02:35:59 I'd say in terms of moving slowly it's small business < big business < universities < governments. 02:36:09 Though that just might be the US government that's glacial 02:36:39 The more barriers that exist, the slower you switch to something even if it's in your best interest 100% 02:36:51 Aethaeryn: Well then again, why don't uni's teach it, and get students intrested in improving it...? It seem's like the "smart" thing to do, to me. :-/ 02:37:31 pjb: Why aren't free software projects named after people, e.g. Stallman Emacs and Steele-Sussman Lisp? They don't need funding. 02:37:35 Aethaeryn: It seems UNIs have become ALOT more buisness orriented than they were in the 80's. 02:38:06 Aethaeryn: They're academics. :-P 02:38:36 Aethaeryn: Linux. 02:38:41 youlysses: Yes, they are increasingly money-oriented, especially at the second-tier and below I think. They don't have large endowments to rely on, or a huge reputation to raise prices, yet want to keep up. 02:38:48 pjb: Linus didn't choose the name. 02:39:10 Was about to say this. It was Freax, or something. 02:39:13 pjb: Though he has claimed to name git after himself, so that counts 02:39:18 There was Gosling Emacs. 02:40:16 Aethaeryn: It's a vicous circle, ain't it... 02:40:35 youlysses: The funny thing is that they're very money inefficient, e.g. depending on Oracle's inferior *and* overpriced products, depending on Blackboard, etc. 02:40:43 They pay more for less, essentially. 02:41:33 I guess... students haven't been treating university like it's for an education, but rather like it's a piece of paper certification for a job... so I guess some universities might be catching up if your observation is accurate, youlysses. 02:41:58 Aethaeryn: It's because all the other "cool schools" in their tier is doing it. But yes, I'm sure their are better, free alternatives out their... 02:42:20 Oh, not just like a certification, like a four-year certification at a resort. 02:42:31 It *must* have the best food, living accomodations, pool, etc. 02:43:00 pjb: yes, you're right with that 02:43:01 In Spain, some university offers free software degrees. 02:43:32 pjb: Really?! That sounds great! 02:43:38 pjb: Over the Internet for free? Or just a degree in FOSS? 02:43:50 What's the diffrence from regular compsci? 02:44:02 A degree in FOSS. 02:44:16 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 02:44:20 Instead of studing proprietary software and system, they study FOSS. 02:44:38 They don't do this already? 02:44:48 pjb: Which is how it should be done everywhere. Especially as a student ... 02:44:52 I mean, Java is FOSS even though it sucks. 02:45:21 Of course, students learn to guard the code for their assignments with their life rather than collaborate, but that's another issue. 02:45:21 Aethaeryn: They're teaching "Basic" at Mizzou iirc? 02:45:29 I don't think so. Everytime I upgrade it on gentoo, I have to download some binary from Oracle. 02:45:54 pjb: Fedora uses the free Java binaries. 02:46:08 And even has a lot of J2EE stuff from JBOSS now in Fedora 17. 02:46:30 Apparently JBOSS reimplements J2EE instead of just running on top of it. 02:46:39 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:51 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 02:54:22 pjb: The Oracle implementation of Java is unfree, but it shares a great deal with OpenJDK, and OpenJDK is no longer substantially incomplete, as it was when first released. 02:56:34 -!- weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.misaki.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:56:47 weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.misaki.pl] has joined #scheme 03:07:40 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-248-126.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:09:09 *jcowan* reads the intro to Chicken's monad egg: "Monads are like a burrito. Okay, well, not." Sounds good to me. From now on when I read "monad" I will mentally substitute "burrito" 03:12:22 :< 03:14:59 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:15:42 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 03:18:07 palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has joined #scheme 03:18:12 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:19:13 palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has joined #scheme 03:22:04 jcowan: do you mean you agree with Xah Lee? 03:22:20 Xah Lee, the terminology Don Quijote. 03:22:47 Ghu forbid. But just because the world's biggest fool says it's raining outside, doesn't mean the sun is shining. 03:23:00 True :-) 03:23:35 Now, yesterday I found my first use for a 3D printer. I will have to have one. 03:23:59 Gömböc 03:24:31 http://gomboc-shop.com/ sell some, but they're XPNSIV 03:25:17 On the other hand, their gömböc has an equilibrium state. I'd like one without any, so it'd be always moving. 03:40:09 I would also like an always-moving item! 03:40:21 I would strap a generator to it and a meeleeon shekels. 03:40:42 well 03:41:20 I would strap a generator to it and _make_ a meeleeon shekels; but mayhap after doing so, I would then strap the money to version two of the device, just to cover the typo in that sentence. 03:43:21 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:44:20 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-248-126.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:46:06 gnomon: if the gravity center stays at the same altitude, no energy is consumed. 03:48:00 *offby1* inflates a paper bag 03:48:20 *jcowan* inflates offby1 03:48:31 u8vector, blob, or bytevector? 03:49:01 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-248-126.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:49:44 ThePawnBreak121 [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 03:49:58 ow ow ow 03:50:04 *offby1* runs into the next room 03:51:09 -!- __dict__ [~jake@c-24-22-211-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #scheme 03:52:55 Sorry about that. 03:53:16 *gnomon* bops a sad, deflating paper bag more or less along offby1's hasty retreat vector 03:56:08 So what shall we call the silly things: blobs, byte vectors, or u8vectors? Much bikeshedding on scheme-reports. 03:56:19 Bear, of course, says we should just have vectors. 03:59:00 mhr [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has joined #scheme 03:59:50 jcowan, ignore Iverson's Turing award lecture, abandon usefully suggestive phonemic naming, and just give them all proper names! Fred, Bob, Alice, Gorthopled, Sigfried... 04:01:18 "How terribly confusing," [the Dodecahedron] cried. "Everything here is called exactly what it is. The triangles are called triangles, the circles are called circles, and even the same numbers have the same name. Why, can you imagine what would happen if we named all the twos Henry or George or Robert or John or lots of other things? You'd have to say Robert plus John equals four, and if the four's name were Albert, things would be hopeless." --The 04:01:19 Phantom Tollbooth 04:01:45 Touché. 04:02:31 what is the difference between racket and scheme? 04:03:36 Scheme is a family of programming languages, each with its own implementation. Racket is a specific implementation providing its specific version of Scheme. 04:03:44 mhr, Racket is an underlying system which offers implementations of many... oh, just read jcowan's answer. 04:03:58 mhr: http://racket-lang.org/new-name.html 04:04:03 You see, racket is ... uh ... oh the hell with it. 04:04:07 No, no, go ahead. Racket provides *many* specific versions of Scheme, as I should have said. And Unschemes too. 04:04:28 Yeah, racket is a family of programming languages -- most but not all of them variants of scheme 04:04:29 I was under the impression it was standardized or something 04:04:33 it is 04:04:33 what do you mean unscheme? 04:04:42 our own jcowan is busy standardizing it as we speak. 04:04:48 Lookit him go! 04:05:07 Ssh, you'll embarrass him! 04:05:43 see? Just now he trimmed a bit off an edge. 04:06:31 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:06:37 mhr: All implementations extend the standard in a variety of ways: that's why I say that Scheme is a language family. 04:06:53 By Unscheme I mean the language family of langauges that are not Scheme. 04:07:15 In what is now Latvia in the 18th century, the language of administration, education, literature, etc. was German. Latvian was strictly for peasants. 04:07:21 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:07:36 this may be a strange question, but is there a scheme implementation that is the most fun? 04:07:43 But even peasants have to go to (Protestant) church. So the first book published in Latvian, ever, was a collection of hymns translated into Latvian for peasants to sing. 04:08:00 Its title? "Non-German Hymns." 04:08:21 mhr: there's no objective answer to that and everyone will give you a different one. 04:08:34 *jcowan* thinks Chicken and Chibi are the most fun. 04:08:42 alright, nvm then 04:08:43 okay 04:09:15 whichever Scheme a person knows best is probably the most fun. For me it's Racket. 04:09:25 *offby1* never got to know Chibi 04:09:26 So, just start with one and do stuff. I do stuff in Racket. 04:09:37 It's hard to swallow that anyone thinks MIT Scheme is the most *fun*, but people do use it. 04:09:38 mhr: but actually that's an excellent question; I salute you for asking it 04:09:54 *offby1* waits for Riastradh to protest 04:10:02 oh, well, for me, fun is when it has elegant concepts and such 04:10:11 well, they all do; they're scheme :) 04:10:16 Every Scheme has elegant concepts. We are all *about* elegant concepts. 04:10:24 Oh indeed. 04:10:28 jcowan, I have many friends and acquaintances who, by virtue of wasted youth and poor career choices, now profess a rather scary stripe of masochism; I can envision many of them preferring MIT Scheme! 04:10:29 that's what I heard in the comparisons between CL and scheme 04:10:32 The differences are mostly about the un-elegant stuff you need to get things done. 04:10:34 And by "them" I of course mean "me". 04:10:41 CL is practical (or it was 30 years ago). 04:10:56 Every Scheme is sacred, every Scheme is good 04:11:04 *offby1* hums 04:11:04 Every Scheme is needed in your neighbourhood 04:11:48 (The phrase "Undeutsche Sprache" could refer to either Latvian or the nearby but totally unrelated Estonian. Lett, Est, it's all peasant-talk to us.) 04:12:09 which is better for a beginning programmer? 04:12:21 scheme or cl, I mean? 04:12:27 scheme probably 04:12:28 and I want to get into AI, if that's helpful 04:12:31 I'd say Racket. 04:12:32 o god 04:12:40 what 04:12:41 You don't want to get into AI. 04:12:48 You may think you want to get into AI. 04:12:50 Well. Not for a living. 04:12:57 not 100% sure but CL takes a bunch of effort to get going, and then if you want to do anything actually useful you have to install a bunch of libraries, which in my experience is painful and discouraging 04:12:57 no 04:12:58 just for fun 04:13:12 I've always had this dream since I was a kid 04:13:17 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:18 of making that legendary strong AI 04:13:25 go for it! 04:13:31 *offby1* slyly places bets 04:13:33 *offby1* whistles innocently 04:13:34 When I hear someone say "I want to get into AI", it's a bit like a shipwright hearing someone say "I want to get into building swimboats". 04:13:34 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 04:13:40 yeah, that's what I was thinking, and I'm a high schooler, plenty of free time 04:13:44 what's a "swimboat"? 04:13:53 I guess a boat? 04:13:53 It's like a boat, but it swims. 04:14:09 *gnomon* waits 04:14:14 C'mon, say it 04:14:16 Sa-a-a-a-ay it 04:14:17 uh 04:14:18 well, thanks for the encouragement guys, haha 04:14:30 gnomon: http://www.mywallingford.com/2012/07/03/hot-tub-boats-hit-it-big-on-seattle-waters/ 04:14:30 http://tinyurl.com/6tzqxey 04:14:40 mhr, I don't mean to discourage you; I want only to armour you against discouragement. 04:14:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-233.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:14:58 not one of those, I take it. 04:14:59 mhr, "AI" isn't really a thing; but the _field_ of AI is absolutely littered with fascinating things. 04:15:13 offby1, uh. Not quite what I had in mind, no. 04:15:17 didn't think so 04:15:28 but which would you rather use, eh? 04:15:39 yeah, when I was younger, I'd look up unsolvable mathematical problems and try to solve them 04:15:47 I like to use my mind 04:16:06 even if I don't get a solution, it's immensely satisfying 04:16:23 I once had the idea of bringing Doug Hofstadter's Copycat architecture to the masses by implementing it in Java. 04:16:28 I worked out exactly how to do it, too. 04:16:36 Of course, the masses didn't give a damn and never will. 04:17:16 So eventually it fell off my bucket list, along with Architectural Forms: The New Generation. 04:17:21 what is the copycat architecture? 04:17:36 you guys are funnier than the CL crowd 04:17:57 See Hofstadter's book Fluid COncepts and Creative Analogies. 04:18:00 Yeah, we are funny. 04:18:08 What's funny is that some of us *are* the CL crowd. 04:18:25 I was going to say that there's probably cross-overs, yeah 04:18:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_Concepts_and_Creative_Analogies#The_Copycat_Project 04:18:33 http://tinyurl.com/cq6nl7v 04:18:33 We don't talk about that. 04:18:47 *gnomon* makes vague elephant-shaped gestures 04:18:49 The first rule of Scheme Club is that you don't talk. 04:18:52 there wasn't a lot of joking in #lisp, as far as I could tell, though 04:18:55 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:19:05 See? Embarrassed. 04:19:43 haha 04:20:05 what do you guys think of clojure? 04:21:34 Damn those pesky crickets. 04:22:14 It's neat and all, I guess.. 04:22:32 is clojure more like cl or scheme? 04:23:43 huh, clojure's website is better designed than scheme's 04:24:22 clearly because clojure isn't backed by academics each of who like to make their own language implementation 04:24:30 mhr: Clojure has some nice aspects and nice features. 04:24:39 Unfortunately, I think its core design has some unfortunate facets. 04:24:50 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:24:57 Like its irregular syntax and its macro system. 04:25:04 like what 04:25:10 oh 04:25:24 are macros the same in scheme as in cl? 04:25:30 No. They are hygienic. 04:25:43 I started learning cl first, but scheme sounded more minimal 04:25:52 what does that mean? 04:25:59 That depends. Some Schemes are more minimal than others. 04:26:20 mhr, have you rnu across http://library.readscheme.org yet? 04:26:31 Hygienic macros mean you can rely on macros not breaking lexical scope when you don't want them to. 04:26:37 nope, I came here to answer my questions 04:26:45 okay 04:26:58 mhr, I'm not trying to linkslap you; I just think you'd have a lot of fun perusing some of those papers. 04:27:33 I've never heard that before "linkslap", no it's fine, as many links as possible, honestly 04:27:34 They would also give you some interesting historical context, if you paid close attention to the publication dates, and you would also start to get an idea for some of the heavier thinkers in the field. 04:28:40 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:29:17 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 04:30:22 mhr: actually different schemes have different macro packages. I think racket includes the ones specified by the various Scheme standards, as well as one that copies CL's 04:30:55 this may not be easy to answer, but oh well. I've heard that common lisp is more practical and "industrial", and what makes it so? 04:31:43 To extend what offby1 said, Racket provides a general macro system upon which several standard frontends (i.e., syntax-rules, syntax-case) and other frontends are built on top of. 04:32:11 mhr: libraries. 04:32:30 This is just implementation dependent. 04:32:41 so cl has more libraries, or a more standard set of them? 04:32:50 probably just more. 04:33:16 I have trouble imagining using _either_ CL or Scheme for "real" work, I'm sorry to say. 04:33:18 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 04:33:18 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:33:46 adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:33:46 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:33:50 there's always paul graham, I suppose, haha 04:34:09 Both are used though. For example, Naughty Dog uses Racket for scripting. 04:34:32 is there a list of libraries for scheme somewhere? 04:34:38 ITA Software uses CL, IIRC. etc etc 04:35:40 mhr: No, because it's implementation dependent. You can find Racket packages on planet.racket-lang.org. Chicken packages on http://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-projects/egg-index-4.html, etc. 04:35:59 alright 04:36:09 seems remarkably fragmented 04:36:38 -!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-39-185.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go sleeps kthxbai] 04:36:41 You might as well think of them as separate languages and pick one. 04:36:44 asumu: if we all put our heads together and thought real hard, we could probably come up with 20 commercial organizations that use Scheme or CL. 04:37:02 for Python, Perl, Ruby, Java, or PHP, the corresponding numbers would be in the hundreds of thousands. 04:37:18 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:37:18 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:37:21 why do you think lisp has fallen out of favor for companies? 04:37:35 -!- anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:37:54 -!- jonathansizz [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:38:00 Probably social factors. 04:38:35 idk, it's like it really matters to me anyway, my dad wants me to be a doctor, haha 04:38:56 mhr, I talk about some things here, but many lispers have disputed each point I've made: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1321 04:39:33 mhr: was it ever in favor? 04:40:01 I don't know, I'm just beginning to program, I guess I'd have to look that up 04:40:11 and thanks for the link Quadrescence 04:41:08 from what I've seen so far, ALGOL related languages were popular right from the start 04:41:48 once I get more advanced at scheme, is there a good book you might recommend for general artificial intelligence in scheme? 04:43:38 mhr, (that post is Common Lisp specific, but much applies to Scheme) 04:44:09 mhr: I think it's a better idea to find a good AI book than an AI book that focuses on any particular language. 04:44:13 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 04:44:33 Russell and Norvig, for example, is an excellent AI book but does not focus on any language. 04:44:43 what's a good ai book, then 04:44:48 oh ok 04:45:14 I'm guessing their exercises are in several different languages, yes? 04:46:21 No, the examples in the book are written in pseudo-code IIRC. 04:46:48 ok 04:46:50 Oh, although there is some extra code examples separate from the book: http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/code.html 04:47:08 But those aren't necessary. 04:48:15 okay, thank you. another language I've seen related to ai is prolog, what is your experience with that? 04:50:37 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-248-126.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:50:57 Not much. The problems that prolog solves are not relevant to major portions of modern AI though (e.g., bayesian statistics). 04:51:03 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 04:51:04 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:51:05 But take that with a grain of salt since I'm not at all an AI expert. 04:51:40 are you saying that prolog is pretty domain specific? 04:55:53 never mind, thanks everyone for answering my questions 04:55:56 -!- mhr [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:57:58 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@66-168-47-170.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: bye!] 05:13:39 thesir [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has joined #scheme 05:13:46 -!- thesir [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has quit [Client Quit] 05:27:16 -!- ThePawnBreak121 [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:31:49 -!- r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:33:34 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:33:34 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:34:16 dropster [~Kim@0x3ec7a313.inet.dsl.telianet.dk] has joined #scheme 05:39:40 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:46:38 asumu : well, there is "The CLP(BN) System" , which is a way to do Bayesian Networks with Constraint Logic Programming, in the Yap Prolog system .. 05:47:27 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #scheme 05:51:41 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:57:03 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 05:57:03 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:59:16 adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:59:26 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:00:02 -!- dropster [~Kim@0x3ec7a313.inet.dsl.telianet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:02:33 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 06:10:08 ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-39-185.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 06:13:15 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 06:18:13 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #scheme 06:22:55 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-29-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:24:19 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:33:50 anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 06:38:22 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 06:46:23 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 06:46:24 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:46:24 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:57:21 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:44 hi ski 07:02:09 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:03:23 *ski* nervously looks around, searching for a way out 07:12:16 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:43 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r190-135-6-103.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:45 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-52-131-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 07:15:28 wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has joined #scheme 07:19:12 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 07:21:33 -!- wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:24:37 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27:17 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 07:28:09 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:26 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 07:30:58 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:32:18 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:40:38 republican_devil [~g@pool-108-13-142-14.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 07:40:42 guys 07:40:45 web web web 07:40:56 lets talk about domianting php perl python rails ruby for web 07:41:10 using pwoer of scheme 07:41:19 scheme more power so can do more with less code right? 07:41:19 and still run fast 07:41:36 Ideally I would love to write a scheme app that replaces appserver webserver load abalcner and relational databse 07:41:39 runs on 1 box 07:41:45 abstracts shit outa everything 07:41:55 and uses all 24 cpu on this nice fat box i buy 07:42:06 KindOne [KindOne@colchester-lug/silly-fool/donut] has joined #scheme 07:42:15 dsp_ [dsp@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 07:44:13 -!- KindOne [KindOne@colchester-lug/silly-fool/donut] has left #scheme 07:45:54 I think mdoern 3 tirer stuff really makes unix crap the common denom since u got load baalcne acros sockets 07:45:56 n other crap 07:46:18 good raid a 1 big box lets program run on 1 bnox and get rids all the hardware unix hacks being center stage 07:46:24 lets scheme power and abstraction 07:46:32 not repeating same data again n again 07:46:51 mapping n suff 07:46:53 and massively abstracting 07:47:02 until web app much much more easy to amange 07:47:06 this si the dream 07:47:16 *cky* stabs Gavino with a fiery poker. 07:47:18 and fo course thsi is millions upon million of $$ value 07:49:24 soegaard [~soegaard@188.183.250.62] has joined #scheme 07:53:05 has a ring of regeneration 07:53:08 :) 07:53:16 casts cone fo cold at sky 07:53:25 er cky 07:53:34 cmon!!! 07:53:37 Im inspired 07:57:14 cyk whats biggest scheme program you ever worked on? how many lines? 07:57:18 how many users? 08:00:10 -!- fhd [~fhd@vserver2179.vserver-on.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:00:27 fhd [~fhd@vserver2179.vserver-on.de] has joined #scheme 08:00:42 cyk you no fun, why so quiet? 08:01:56 mhr [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has joined #scheme 08:02:39 Joshua_MG [~alvesjnr@pcpavel.intec.ugent.be] has joined #scheme 08:02:47 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 08:04:18 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:04:20 hi all. I started learning Scheme 10 minutes ago. I have a question: if I have a defined variable [e.g (define j 10)] to change the value of this variable, what is the difference between set! and use a define again? 08:05:07 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:05:28 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:07:00 check out the scheme spec 08:07:08 I think, but I'm not sure, because I'm a beginner too, I think set! is changing the value, and define is creating something new 08:07:38 scheme has clearly writen spec 08:07:39 shows all 08:08:22 yeah, Joshua_MG, that's your best bet for all of those kinds of questions 08:08:23 -!- mhr [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:13:10 Joshua_MG: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5406064/difference-between-define-let-and-set 08:13:11 http://tinyurl.com/7sjyqve 08:17:11 Joshua_MG: Short answer. define does two things. It i) declares a variable and ii) sets it (that is assigns to it). In comparison set! only sets the an already declared variable. If define is used twice with the same variable name, the second define acts as a set!. 08:17:22 (Since the variable already is declared). 08:18:04 However defining the same variable twice is normally only done by accident, so some Scheme systems warns you, if you happen to define the same variable twice. 08:19:37 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:25:52 thank you 08:25:58 http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-d5dxB-nFEZA/big_trucks_emergency_vehicles_no_problem_for_roundabouts/ 08:25:59 http://tinyurl.com/7kx9k8u 08:26:07 if I make a web framework I will cal it rondabout 08:26:10 awyeah 08:31:22 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:33:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 08:54:11 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-96.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:56:51 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:57:34 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 08:58:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:01:11 mhr [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has joined #scheme 09:02:27 Is define used to make both variables and new functions? function: (define (hello x) (* x x)), and variable: (define hello 2) 09:05:59 sicp knows! 09:06:04 and scheme standard! 09:06:28 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 09:07:13 mhr, yes, define can be used in these 2 ways. 09:07:22 alright, thanks 09:07:53 -!- mhr [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:11:27 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-250-130.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:16:37 dzhus [~dzhus@93-80-71-129.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 09:18:28 -!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-39-185.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: And thats the end of THAT chapter.] 09:19:24 -!- ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:23:45 scheme!!! 09:23:58 beter than almost anything for interactive web sites!! 09:24:02 oh yeah!! 09:24:06 http://news.investors.com/article/617074/201207031851/chinese-airline-passengers-teach-terrorist-hijackers-a-lesson.htm?src=HPLNews 09:24:07 http://tinyurl.com/8xparh7 09:27:22 http://wiki.call-cc.org/elevator-pitch 09:27:35 when boss wonders about fastcgi being useful on 24 cpu boxes 09:27:41 whet u sey eh? 09:27:54 chciken use 1 cpu? 09:28:06 how fork and multiprocess? 09:28:21 ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 09:28:38 Myk267 [~myk@71.149.250.130] has joined #scheme 09:36:28 mucker_ [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 09:37:18 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #scheme 09:39:39 -!- mucker_ [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:07 talk to me! 09:40:16 well good night schemeres 09:40:23 -!- republican_devil [~g@pool-108-13-142-14.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:43:14 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 09:49:42 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:50:50 -!- phao [phao@177.115.46.175] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 09:53:03 -!- hiato [~nine@clam.leg.uct.ac.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:55:00 -!- b4283 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:55:06 hiato [~nine@clam.leg.uct.ac.za] has joined #scheme 09:56:37 -!- Joshua_MG [~alvesjnr@pcpavel.intec.ugent.be] has left #scheme 10:00:17 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 10:11:15 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:15 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 10:15:53 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 10:17:10 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:26:55 masm [~masm@bl17-200-117.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:27:32 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:27:32 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@93-80-71-129.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:27:34 sonstwo [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 10:27:42 -!- ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:47 adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:45:25 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:46:53 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:44 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:53:27 spionHL [~spion@95.180.197.146] has joined #scheme 10:58:26 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #scheme 11:07:07 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77be99.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:09:13 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77b9b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 11:21:43 b4283 [~user@114-47-12-74.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 11:36:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.210] has joined #scheme 11:36:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.210] has quit [Changing host] 11:36:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 11:46:07 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:07 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:04 adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:56:45 keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB79C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:58:36 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:05:18 anyone know who the maintainer of readscheme.org is? 12:09:23 foof: the main page says "This site is maintained by Jim Bender" (editor at readscheme.org) 12:16:12 that email is bouncing... 12:18:48 Hmmm. There's also "Last modified: Monday, February 16th, 2009", so things may be a bit outdated. :-) 12:20:00 Maybe the untyped guys know something. Noel Welsh? 12:20:16 I found an @aol.com (!) address for him, I'll try that. 12:25:35 foof: it seems that he has two aol.com addresses. :-) 12:26:35 (I'm guessing about sourceforge's benderjg2@ao...) 12:27:00 The whois info shows it without the "2". 12:30:26 maybe he's 3 now? :) 12:37:21 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 12:40:37 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 12:41:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:42:58 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:45:13 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:48:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.210] has joined #scheme 12:48:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.210] has quit [Changing host] 12:48:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 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benderweb.net (from http://partial-eval.org/) 13:07:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.210] has joined #scheme 13:07:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.210] has quit [Changing host] 13:07:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 13:11:38 wtf @ partial-eval.org's sponsors. 13:18:26 tupi [~david@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 13:21:08 cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-247-95.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:21:33 mmalorni [~mmalorni@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:28:33 xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has joined #scheme 13:32:19 -!- jonathansizz [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:32:30 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:33:06 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:33:46 -!- MichaelRaskin 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:19:50 I just discovered `do', for some reason, after years of using named-let for iteration. 14:20:00 I like it, actually; I used to think it was degenerate, though. 14:20:43 Maybe it is degenerate, in the sense that it deprives you of the joy of iterative recursion (no oxymoron). 14:22:55 Riastradh had a good point in foof-loop.txt: "Named LET captures a very general loop structure, and DO captures a much more specific loop structure, but neither captures any mechanism of iteration." 14:23:26 Maybe foof-loop is where it's at, after all. 14:26:58 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:28:43 I can never remember "do"'s syntax 14:28:46 so I always used named let ... 14:28:59 ... until a while ago where I started using Racket's "for/foo" forms 14:31:45 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:09 *mario-goulart* is also part of the "I can't remember "do"'s syntax" club 14:35:10 henne_ [~quassel@91-67-165-122-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 14:36:15 *wingo* too 14:39:24 (let loop ((x init)) (something) (if (stop) result (loop (increment x)))) == (do ((x init (increment x))) ((stop) result) (something)) ; I can see no difference. 14:40:30 Now, given that there are six elements, I could invent 720 different loop macros. 14:40:54 do is crazy 14:40:55 (not counting variations in parentheses). 14:41:26 Well the main drawback of do, is that you often have the same expression for initialization as for increment. But named let doesn't help here either. 14:44:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:50:50 getpwnam [~ian@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:50:54 jonathansizz [~ian@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:51:35 hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:55:17 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 14:57:22 if scheme had cl's loop i would use it 14:57:33 i'm just that tacky 14:57:49 wingo: better port iterate to scheme. It'll be better accepted. 14:57:52 Now that's a nice ambiguous sentence. :-) 14:58:06 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has quit [Quit: xaxisx] 14:58:09 :) 14:59:09 my grandmother, bless her soul, always wore the worst shiny belts hiked up on her stomach 14:59:19 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:22 i'm not grand or a mother, so i envy shiny macros 14:59:53 the more sequins (!) the better 15:04:13 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:16:33 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #scheme 15:18:57 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:20:33 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:39 -!- ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:28:51 i just had my first desire for srfi-61 cond 15:30:03 neat 15:31:38 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 15:32:31 __rahul__ 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MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 17:54:26 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-104.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:36 palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has joined #scheme 17:54:37 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 17:54:41 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:54:46 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@2001:5c0:1000:b::f87] has joined #scheme 17:54:47 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@2001:5c0:1000:b::f87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:57 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 17:54:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 17:55:09 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@2001:5c0:1000:b::f87] has joined #scheme 17:55:13 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-104.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:56:31 palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has joined #scheme 17:56:37 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:57:30 palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has joined #scheme 17:57:36 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:57:52 palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has joined #scheme 17:57:57 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:58:19 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 17:58:27 palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has joined #scheme 17:58:32 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:03:00 kudkudyak [~user@94.72.153.23] has joined #scheme 18:17:39 wingo: That's pretty cool; thanks. 18:18:12 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-ad03a5e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:22:13 realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-ad03a5e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 18:24:54 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:25 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:27:15 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 18:28:35 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has joined #scheme 18:32:07 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:33:06 -!- b4283 [~user@114-47-12-74.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-ad03a5e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:39:38 mhr [aefc685d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.104.93] has joined #scheme 18:40:13 what's the difference between nil in cl and #f in scheme? 18:40:34 Not knowing CL I have no idea 18:40:58 #f in Scheme is a value for which boolean? returns true, and which makes if evaluate the false clause 18:41:04 It is in fact the -only- value to have this property 18:41:25 random_malice [~ian@129.7.255.86] has joined #scheme 18:41:59 bro_grammer [~quassel@129.7.255.86] has joined #scheme 18:42:01 mgs: NIL serves the purpose of '() in CL (as well as being falsy) 18:42:07 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:08 mgs: there is no 1:1 equivalence 18:42:13 oops mhr^^ 18:42:18 haha, okay, thanks 18:42:20 -!- mhr [aefc685d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.104.93] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:27 Ah yes, a notable distinction is that in Scheme only #f is false, '() is not false 18:42:33 right. 18:43:06 Whereas in some other Lisps, the empty list is considered false 18:44:09 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:44:35 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 18:44:37 -!- hash_table [~quassel@129.7.255.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:44:37 -!- getpwnam [~ian@129.7.255.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:44:37 -!- jonathansizz [~ian@129.7.255.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:44:50 anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 18:46:07 -!- random_malice [~ian@129.7.255.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:41 -!- bro_grammer [~quassel@129.7.255.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:51:45 -!- soegaard [~soegaard@188.183.250.62] has quit [Quit: soegaard] 18:52:28 soegaard [~soegaard@188.183.250.62] has joined #scheme 18:53:36 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.231] has joined #scheme 18:58:03 -!- anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 18:58:30 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:03:51 anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 19:16:01 bigfg [~b_fin_g@r186-52-131-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 19:19:18 -!- bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-52-131-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:23:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-233.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:25:58 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:27:21 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:31:34 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:44 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:38:09 -!- tzxn3 [~tzxn3@cpc5-nott17-2-0-cust335.12-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:42 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:55:01 LeoNerd: which is exactly as it should, if you don't want to be hit on the head by the local zen monk. 19:55:23 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.202.26.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:55:25 Heh 19:55:48 ouch 19:55:48 (if '() 'scheme 'common-lisp) 19:56:28 This is a worse incompatibility than lisp-1/lisp-2. 19:56:42 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-200-117.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:57:16 phao [phao@177.26.79.150] has joined #scheme 19:58:37 woonie2 [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has joined #scheme 19:59:19 masm [~masm@bl17-200-117.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 20:00:37 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB79C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:16 http://thecodelesscode.com/case/6 http://thecodelesscode.com/case/5 20:02:07 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:48 pjb: haha very good 20:06:48 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:38 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 20:16:34 keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB79C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:35 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.153.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:46 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:31:09 henne_ [~quassel@91-67-165-122-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:33:32 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:38 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: antithesis] 20:36:03 ThePawnBreak 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has quit [Quit: soegaard] 23:07:00 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:31 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:08:13 Sorella [~quildreen@189-12-48-135.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 23:08:13 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@189-12-48-135.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 23:08:13 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #scheme 23:08:30 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:12:18 Is lexical scope like having local and global variables? As in, variables defined in a function stay there? 23:12:45 yea 23:12:57 okay, thanks, just making sure 23:13:11 -!- mhr_ [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:20:58 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:24:24 -!- woonie2 [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:30:40 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:32:32 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 23:44:21 woonie [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has joined #scheme 23:46:49 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-200-117.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:48:28 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:51:00 dnolen [~user@pool-68-161-100-113.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme