00:00:08 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:01:07 -!- arbn [~arbn@pool-74-98-200-128.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:01:46 -!- b4283` [~user@114-47-12-74.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:56 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:03:48 anothervenue: It's totally possible to master Lisp or any other programming language, it'll just take ten years. http://norvig.com/21-days.html 00:04:39 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-250-130.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:32 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 00:05:46 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:16 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:09:45 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:09:45 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yobucpodnqfvlyxa] has joined #scheme 00:11:43 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #scheme 00:15:41 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 00:17:01 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-66-32.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:20:12 ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-39-185.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:30 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:13 Yeah, I've read that. 00:21:40 Phttps://gist.github.com/3036597 00:21:42 Aethaeryn: the corollary is "it never ends". 00:21:45 Alright, correct my mistakes! :-) 00:22:08 Aethaeryn: actually i believe Norvig is talking about programming, not any particular language. 00:22:26 Aethaeryn: a language can be internalised in less time (excepting C++) 00:24:37 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-56.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 00:24:51 I'm not trying to learn programming in 3 days though lol 00:25:40 anothervenue: I guess my point is that you said you'd "never be all that good"... but it is possible. 00:25:46 It just takes years. 00:25:55 Aethaeryn: You seem to be pretty good at making trees. Maybe you should turn your Scheme project into a tree-maker 00:26:05 (Visual tree-maker) 00:27:50 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD600E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:28:07 ancestral: I think very visually, but right now I hand-craft my ASCII. 00:28:38 bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:28:39 But this stuff's probably better suited as an elisp file, rather than a scheme library. 00:29:24 We should have more ASCII artists 00:29:38 People who handcraft their ASCII for at least small profit 00:29:41 The trick is to actually do it on paper first. 00:29:48 It's easier to translate something than to do it from scratch. 00:30:41 I am already reading the books on the Norvig site. SICP now, so I guess thats good. 00:31:42 anothervenue: It actually took 6 sketches to find one sufficiently simple to communicate my point in plaintext. 00:31:47 ugh, ancestral: ^ 00:31:52 haha 00:31:54 anothervenue: Sorry, tab completion failed me. 00:32:06 Aethaeryn: Too many a's here. 00:32:21 anothervenue: Have you seen the SICP videos? 00:32:29 anothervenue: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE18841CABEA24090 00:32:50 Yes, I am studying it via opencourseware 00:32:55 The videos are awesome 00:33:11 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:33:18 Yeah, I wish I had comp sci lectures that interesting. It probably helps that Lisp is so mathy. 00:33:25 One of the lecturers is a PhD in math, I think. 00:33:51 I don't like that its so mathy in one sense, but I really like logic, which is like math with words 00:34:03 Usually, when lectures try to get practical/applied/engineering, they wind up getting dull because their use cases are too oversimplified. 00:34:10 ahh 00:34:12 Yeah 00:34:13 Math isn't ideal, but it's better than the alternative imo. 00:34:27 arbn [~arbn@pool-74-98-200-128.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:35:09 It's incredible too that there is only one computer in the room 00:35:30 No one's on Facebook on their laptop during the lecture. 1986 is amazing. 00:35:50 I tend to try out the examples in the REPL while watching and see if I know what is happening before he explains it 00:36:32 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-136.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 00:36:50 Well, I've gone through 5/20 and so far it's mostly stuff I already know (it *is* an intro course) so I can "repl" most of it in my head. 00:37:18 Sorella_ [~quildreen@189-12-73-5.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 00:37:18 I'm getting there, but I'm not real far in 00:37:53 I've also watched a couple 2x 00:38:26 I've watched other videos 2x, but after 1A it kind of goes too fast for 2x speed... which means it's over 20 hours of material 00:38:40 No I mean rewatched it 00:38:43 At least, too fast for me to take notes at the same time (e.g. write the code down) 00:38:46 ah 00:39:24 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-93-96.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:40:18 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:40:25 -!- arbn [~arbn@pool-74-98-200-128.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:47:16 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-56.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:50:23 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #scheme 00:50:31 -!- ijp [~user@host31-52-140-191.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:53 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 00:52:54 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:30 I can type fast, so I put them in the REPL 00:56:46 b4283 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 00:56:53 The other thing about the videos that rules, is the haircuts 00:57:09 There are a couple glorious moustaches too 00:59:14 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@189-12-73-5.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 00:59:39 :) 00:59:46 Does anyone know of a Scheme with multiple library instantiation semantics that may potentially instantiate more than one library instance per phase? 01:03:11 Also the sythesizer music at the beginning with the wizard repl spell 01:03:23 anothervenue: I like the eval/apply there. 01:03:32 ijp [~user@host31-52-140-191.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 01:03:50 arcfide: Do you mean something like chibi-scheme's (import)? 01:04:30 (import (scheme write) (prefix (scheme write) hi-)) (display "hi") (hi-display "hi") 01:04:33 I do not know if Chibi Scheme uses multiple instantiations of libraries. 01:05:10 Aethaeryn: Yeah, its sweet 01:05:25 arcfide: I'm not sure if that's what you meant by multiple instantiations. 01:05:32 That's not what I mean. 01:06:35 I mean, given library (x) which has a side-effect of printing "Blah", is it possible in any Scheme system of note to have Blah printed twice for a given evaluation phase. 01:06:36 Chibi currently never generates multiple instantiations of the same library. 01:06:38 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-159-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 01:06:55 ah 01:07:41 I know of plenty of Schemes that guarantee a single instantiation across phases, as well as systems that guarantee a separation of state across phases, but it is not clear to me whether the latter also guarantee a single instantiation for any given phase. 01:07:42 anothervenue: eval/apply is also on the book cover, too, which I didn't notice until I saw the more obvious drawing in the videos... http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 01:08:11 This is because minimal resource utilization is Chibi's raison d'etre. I may add some control over this later for those who don't care about efficiency. 01:08:29 foof: Eh, don't do so on my account. :-) 01:08:53 Aethaeryn: So it is. lol 01:09:08 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-29-153.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:33 foof: Was my message about formal semantics clear? Let me know if you want me to add anything. 01:09:52 -!- ijp [~user@host31-52-140-191.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:10:32 I have thoughts on how I would want to go about the formal semantics, but I would rather waste bandwidth on that until someone pipes up in favor of doing something more substantial with the semantics. 01:10:55 foof: You're the chibi-scheme author? 01:11:04 Hey, minimal resource utilization! Know of any super-cheapo low-power single-board computers to play with and make toys out of? 01:11:32 Riastradh: Raspberry Pi? 01:11:36 Riastradh: Are you being rhetorical? 01:11:48 arcfide: I'll have to read through it later, at work now (and just have a few moments to kill while compiling...) 01:11:52 Aethaeryn: yes 01:12:00 Riastradh: arduino is also popular 01:12:07 foof: No problem, I wouldn't mind a reduction in WG traffic. :-) 01:12:18 arbn [~arbn@pool-74-98-200-128.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:12:24 `Super-cheapo' meaning ~$30, maybe $60 maximum. Should run a real operating system, without binary blobs. 01:12:26 foof: Cool. I use chibi-scheme to test out r7rs, especially the library behavior. 01:12:40 The Lisp/Scheme world is very small, you can run into almost everyone on IRC. 01:13:19 Aethaeryn: let me know if you encounter any problems, I've got a few cleanup tasks I need to perform before a 0.6 release (hopefully soon) 01:13:38 foof: Is there (going to be) a way to have sublibraries? i.e. things you can import once you've imported something. 01:13:58 foof: Per the earlier convo...why did you decide to create an implementation of Scheme? (I know you gotta work) 01:14:18 Some libraries could be rather large, and I'm not sure listing each and every identifier in "only" is the best way to do things. 01:14:34 I'm thinking about, e.g. web frameworks or other large libraries. 01:15:02 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:15:12 *ski* . o O ( "Living in zmacs" ) 01:15:21 Aethaeryn : hm, how does AutoLISP fit in there ? 01:15:41 Aethaeryn, I was under the impression that the Raspberry Pi hardware relied on NDA-laden documentation from Broadcom, or a Linux kernel binary provided by the foundation. But maybe I've gotten the wrong impression. 01:16:06 istr seeing a page which displayed which SRFIs were implemented by various Scheme implementations -- anyone know where to find it ? 01:16:32 foof, all you get in an Arduino is an 8-bit microcontroller, as far as I know; I meant something a little bit beefier than that. 01:16:58 Riastradh: BeagleBone? 01:17:00 ski: That's complicatd (from Wikipedia at least) because AutoLISP is based on XLISP which was originally just Lisp, then 2.0 was Common Lisp subset, then XSCHEME is an r3rs... So I would need to know which XLISP AutoLISP is based on (probably the original one) and which Lisp XLISP is based on. 01:17:20 Riastradh: I have a friend running chibi on an arduino :) 01:18:09 anothervenue, you mean the BeagleBoard? That's about three to four times as expensive as I had in mind. 01:18:30 google for armpit scheme 01:18:30 Oh, no, you did mean BeagleBone. 01:18:43 ski: But it's on the left side of the first ||, with emacs and Common Lisp, afaik. 01:18:47 Yeah, its like BeagleBoard mini 01:19:18 Hmm. 01:19:27 ("XSCHEME is an r3rs" -- is this related to `xscheme.el' which comes with MIT ?) 01:19:32 Riastradh: It's the graphics part, afaik. 01:19:43 Riastradh: It's a common problem with graphics drivers in the Linux kernel. 01:20:05 Yeah, I don't care about graphics... 01:20:19 in r7rs draft 6 it looks like \x in strings is terminated with ; -- is that right? meaning "\x21;" --> "!" 01:20:42 At this point, the people who care about such things should fork the Free Software Foundation and make a Free Hardware Foundation, focusing solely on making graphics cards. 01:20:59 Because, again, it's almost always graphics these days. 01:22:41 -!- arbn [~arbn@pool-74-98-200-128.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:23:22 It seems stupid for the graphics cards manufactures to not even experiment with some open hardware 01:23:48 ski: This part is poorly documented on Wikipedia. I'd have to dig deeper on Google if I wanted to complete this part of the chart (there's a reason I left a lot of ..., the older stuff would require more work than the newer stuff) ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLISP 01:25:35 ok 01:25:54 But the basic picture is still communicated, that Common Lisp essentially replaced everything that's not a Scheme except the stuff embedded in applications (e.g. elisp) 01:28:17 And scheme exploded like mating rabbits? 01:28:37 Yes, perhaps I should put a ... ... ... ... ... to make it clear that there's a million and one Schemes. ;-P 01:29:17 Scheme could definitely be its own chart, with things like r4rs, r5rs, r6rs, r7rs, racket branching out with lots of sublanguages, etc. 01:30:06 You could call it A Scheme to Drive You Crazy 01:30:20 Then, of course, there's always stuff like this: http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html 01:32:19 So you could always sort by environment (interpreter, compile-to-C, compile-to-native, CLI, JVM, JS, ...) 01:32:30 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:33:49 You could also put together a large list of languages that claim to be influenced by Scheme (Dylan, JavaScript, Lua, etc.) 01:44:14 -!- phao [phao@177.160.106.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:44:37 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c-69-136-24-18.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: EPIC5-1.1.2[1638] - amnesiac : 1400 feet still looking good] 01:45:27 -!- Axioplas1 [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 01:45:47 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 01:45:50 Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has joined #scheme 01:45:50 -!- Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:17 Wait, thats JavaScript implemented via Lisp? 01:46:42 Thats not that crazy, writing JS sucks :D 01:47:18 some ppl say that JS has an lisp heritage 01:47:56 Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has joined #scheme 01:48:36 -!- FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:49:17 anothervenue: no, that's Lisp implemented via JavaScript 01:49:51 interpreted in and/or compiled to javascript, I mean 01:53:24 -!- b4283 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:53:36 And, yes, writing JavaScript sucks. Certain "beginner-friendly" features are just awful, such as the var thing, and the buggy semicolon insertion, etc. In fact the whole Java-style syntax and namingConventions is just to be friendlier to beginners coming from other languages. 01:54:05 Pro tip: Use CoffeeScript? 01:54:31 No, compile r7rs Scheme to JavaScript! :-P 01:55:20 I think I'm going to use chibi-scheme to write this compiler, so I can test out the code on a working r7rs 01:55:25 I guess I never realized how close Lua and JavaScript are in syntax 01:55:57 Well, some things are not 01:56:15 ancestral: I noticed immediately since I coded Lua before JavaScript. Tables? Objects! 01:57:02 s/coded Lua/coded in Lua 01:57:31 Heh 01:58:33 The main instantly-observable difference is how they simulate lists/arrays. Lua uses {1, 2, 3} and it's 1-indexed (basically overloading {}) and JavaScript uses [1, 2, 3] and it's 0-indexed 01:58:49 I prefer (1 2 3) because the comma is unnecessary. 02:00:51 Besides, all these "Scheme-influenced" languages miss out on car/cdr/cons. 02:01:33 '(1 2 3) is really '(1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) 02:02:01 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:03:27 chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:03:28 -!- chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 02:03:28 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #scheme 02:05:39 b4283 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 02:06:22 You can build all sorts of data structures from cons pairs, which is awesome. 02:07:15 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 02:07:40 Aethaeryn: I started with JS, and even then I didn't like it. 02:08:05 And yes, (1 2 3) is easier, and its cleaner to read, go figure 02:08:56 anothervenue: It also prevents all sorts of comma issues, e.g. (1,2,3) vs. (1, 2, 3) vs. (1, 2, 3,) ... 02:09:13 anothervenue: I'm surprised Python, with its whole preventing stylistic differences via whitespace, didn't use [1 2 3 4 5] for its lists. 02:09:25 Eh, it all started with a bug in the Lisp 1 interpreter by which commas were erroneously not printed. 02:10:34 Cool. 02:10:55 Some times the accidents are as important as the planned features. 02:12:38 -!- woonie [~woonie@bb121-7-16-181.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:12:43 jcowan: I watched http://vimeo.com/29391029 the other day (the talk on r7rs from LispNYC 9 months ago). It was very informative, thanks. 02:12:53 jcowan: Is there anything that has changed since then? 02:13:06 Aethaeryn | Besides, all these "Scheme-influenced" languages miss out on car/cdr/cons. // that's not really true. any language with a pair type has CONS, CAR and CDR. 02:13:09 Well, quite a lot of small things. 02:13:16 Aethaeryn: pair or tuple. 02:14:28 *ski* . o O ( ) 02:14:44 jcowan: Is draft 6 the final draft or are there a lot of things left? 02:15:15 We expect to issue draft 7 soon (containing editorial changes) and have the sixth ballot, to be followed by draft 8. 02:15:49 jcowan: I noticed an error in draft 6 where import is in (scheme base) on page 68, yet you need import to import, which is circular. It's probably a known issue, though, since chibi-scheme allows (import) without first having imported (scheme base), thus avoiding this issue. 02:17:21 ls 02:18:50 -!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-39-185.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go sleeps kthxbai] 02:19:58 Aethaeryn: Yes, import does not belong in (scheme base) 02:20:45 (define-library) is correctly *not* on page 68 02:20:49 jcowan: I seem to recall we debated that issue - I don't think it should be in (scheme base) either but I have to double check why it's there. 02:21:11 (I didn't want include or cond-expand in (scheme base) either for that matter...) 02:21:53 We put it there because at one time we treated it as on a par with load. 02:22:11 It needs to come out, but we do need to say explicitly that include and cond-expand can be used at the REPL. 02:23:32 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 02:23:34 For that matter, we don't actually say that import is legal at the REPL. 02:23:39 That needs to be cleaned upl. 02:24:05 We also need to make it clear that REPLs may read input from files, not just interactively, and that this is not the same as running a program. 02:25:00 jcowan: Are you allowed to (define-library) inside of a library? i.e. define a sublibrary for a library whose identifier gets exported when you import the library, only then allowing you to import it? 02:25:51 phao [phao@177.77.150.104] has joined #scheme 02:29:37 I think chibi-scheme directly associates libraries with files of matching names, which obviously isn't ideal in the compile-to-JavaScript world, where many files could be compiled, combined into one js file, and minified. 02:31:46 Aethaeryn: No, you aren't, or more accurately, it's unspecified. An implementation can add its own library declarations to the standard list. 02:32:19 I'm not sure how much of chibi-scheme's library system is implicit in the standard and how much is implementation-specific. 02:33:43 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:37:29 Aethaeryn: The implicit matching is optional, and only applies if a library is not otherwise defined. 02:40:28 What implicit matching? 02:41:10 yoklov [~yoklov@66-168-47-170.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:41:48 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:44:19 Aethaeryn: If you want to see exactly what has changed since that talk, see http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/WG1Ballot5Results 02:44:27 Of course there have been editorial changes too. 02:46:31 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-56.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 02:49:13 jcowan: okay, so work on r7rs-large starts when r7rs-small ends, and r7rs-small will go until at least a draft 8, so... r7rs isn't going to be final until 2013 at the earliest, then? 02:49:53 The Steering Committee and I are thinking about the possibility of a rolling release of r7rs-large, since it is mostly or entirely segmented into independent packages. 02:50:29 But I think 2013 is a safe assumption even for the earliest release. 02:51:04 And r7rs-large will mostly be able to be written in r7rs-small? 02:51:30 So, theoretically speaking, some group of people *could* write a portable r7rs-large subset that works on all conforming r7rs-smalls? 02:51:46 Hard to say. There will certainly be packages that cannot be, some that can be but should not be, and others that might as well be. 02:52:03 Not only theoretically but actually, I hope. 02:52:45 Will it be all in one pdf like r7rs-small? 02:53:53 Possibly, I don't know yet. 02:54:14 I would guess that the first releases would be on the r7rs wiki. 02:54:41 And if you're doing a rolling release my two cents is (and it doesn't count for anything, it's just my opinion/suggestion) to please start with the really important things that almost every language has these days first, e.g. hash tables. 02:54:58 Before r7rs-smalls start showing up with incompatabilities on basic things that eventually become part of r7rs-large 02:54:59 I'll probably start with the least controversial things, like SRFI 1. 02:55:21 There are three competing proposals for hash tables at present. 02:55:34 Transformer [~Transform@ool-44c4bb0a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:24 There are basically four kinds of features in R7RS-large as I see it: mandates, extensions, required packages, and optional packages. The bulk of the work will be in the optional packages. 02:56:40 The other three kinds may not end up being used at all, but they may. 02:57:14 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-44c4bb0a.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 02:57:25 A mandate is a requirement that large language implementations must do something in a particular way, when the small language leaves it open. 02:57:36 For example, bignums might be mandated. (Not proposing this, just an example.) 02:58:12 An extension is an additional facility provided by some part of the irreplaceable core. For example, we might add new library declarations or new clauses to existing library declarations. 02:59:12 A required package (consisting of one or more libraries) is one that all large implementations must have. This would come up if a bunch of optional packages needed to rely on some facility not in the small language. 02:59:23 Currently none of these have been proposed. 02:59:36 Ah. 03:00:09 You said that r7rs-large will make it larger than Common Lisp. Will this include an object system like CLOS? 03:00:22 The WG has accepted about 80 optional packages and has about 30 more to be voted on. 03:00:34 At present nothing CLOS-like is in the input hopper. 03:00:38 ah 03:01:25 My personal view (though I am in the end only a servant of the WG) is not to standardize anything so complex. It's very easy to write DIY object systems in Scheme that provide just what you want or need and no more. 03:01:30 Well, one of the goals was to lure away programmers of languages like Python. One thing they all seem to have in common is varying degrees of OO. 03:01:40 True. 03:02:11 I'm reasonably sure that one extension (in the above sense) we will have will be single inheritance of recods. 03:02:22 (Alternatively that might be a package, depending on how it's done.) 03:03:21 What the popular scripting languages seem to have are: (1) good string manipulation, (2) objects, (3) web frameworks. 03:03:26 Though I don't think (3) is ever built in 03:04:01 Except in Arc but we're talking about popular here. 03:05:16 But (3) would still have to be written portably in Scheme. 03:05:33 arbn [~arbn@pool-74-98-200-128.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:14:11 also nice database access -- like Perl's DBI 03:15:05 iffsid [~user@c-98-222-193-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:15:28 offby1: Yes, but I noticed that database stuff has already been rejected, see the SQL and SQLite stuff in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ar8UUpsyGZ0wdEtoMy0ta1piRDcwZUVQZ29wbk8yNEE&gid=0 03:15:28 http://tinyurl.com/7grujk7 03:16:03 Databases are kind of either a prereq or supplement to (3) 03:17:05 offby1: I have a feeling that the truly useful things will have to be community-written. 03:17:10 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-159-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:17:24 Then maybe they'll show up in r8rs-gigantic 03:19:22 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-183-188.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:19:38 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-56.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:20:01 -!- iffsid [~user@c-98-222-193-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 03:22:07 Sure. 03:22:26 Remember that the whole purpose of R7RS (at least according to Pope John) is to make the life of library authors easier. 03:22:41 *jcowan* speaks ex cathedra from the nave(l) 03:23:19 :) 03:23:37 jcowan: speaking from the navel is quite a trick. I will give you points for ventriloquism. 03:23:55 jcowan: why, right now, it is qu1j0t3 speaking but it appears to emanate from FurnaceBoy! 03:23:57 Belly-talking, indeed. 03:24:13 jcowan: as long as it's not hunger. 03:24:18 It might be. 03:24:23 Dinner just came out of the oven, indeed. 03:24:30 :) 03:25:28 i saw a WG3 in the list, does that mean there will be third version ? 03:26:01 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:26:15 It means that WG2 thinks the Steering Committee should consider chartering separate WGs (3, 4, 5, ...) to work on these features. 03:26:28 They might be added to a later edition of the large language, or kept for R8RS, or who knows what. 03:27:44 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-183.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:28:30 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 03:28:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:00 dunno if that's a good news 03:29:17 especially implementing those could be a lot of effort 03:31:40 Even specifying them is a lot of effort, which (I think) is why WG2 voted to put them off. 03:37:49 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 03:42:53 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-159-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 03:44:58 jcowan: hi1 03:45:03 you know a lot about APIs 03:45:44 For my sins, es. 03:45:46 yes 03:45:55 I'm trying to standardize an API for containers (lists, arrays, trees, finger trees, etc.) 03:46:06 for CL 03:46:24 using generic functions and "interface passing style" 03:46:42 which I suppose is most close to the haskell way 03:47:05 I was looking on whether something similar existed in the scheme world 03:47:09 looks like it doesn't 03:47:18 maybe in the clojure world? 03:47:33 Quadrescence do u have an opinion on that. 03:48:20 no, but I am familiar with Fare's interface-passing style. 03:48:43 which is sort of "explicit type classes for the eccentric" but still a useful idiom. 03:49:15 Quadrescence: is this just easier in Haskell?> 03:50:06 not so eccentric - how else would you do parametric polymorphism in CL? 03:50:24 Well it's not eccentric; that was just a jab in jest. 03:50:41 and besides, it's exactly what happens implicitly when you use haskell type classes or plt units, etc. 03:51:11 yes. I'm all for it! I don't see another way without implementing a type system atop lisp. 03:51:13 I was just explaining today how Scheme is almost completely monomorphic, with the exception of universal (i.e. trivial parametric) polymorphism in pairs and vectors, and ad hoc polymorphism between exact and inexact numbers. 03:51:55 I just implemented monomorphic lists for CL. 03:52:32 (in a way that integrates with its "type" system.) 03:57:52 (and if you implement a type system atop lisp -- you can use it as your underlying implementation library0 03:58:57 what would be your desired type system, Fare? 03:59:07 *FurnaceBoy* takes a layman's interest 04:00:21 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:02:07 FurnaceBoy: one I could decide on as a user depending on the application - if possible by a meta-type-system language, whereby I specify constraints on my type system, and it solves the constraints. 04:04:07 hmm, a programmable/meta type system... interesting idea 04:06:53 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:07:11 Quadrescence: now don't tell me you already whipped one up in your UTILS repo 04:08:04 haha 04:15:43 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-250-130.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:16:02 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:16:12 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:16:28 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:12 aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has joined #scheme 04:26:01 yey 04:26:12 i have electricity! 04:27:14 R8RS? 04:29:19 adu: you haven't been in cryosleep THAT long. 04:30:12 FurnaceBoy: my lights have been out for 3 days, I've been using a small generator for 2 days, so yes, I was online yesterday :P 04:30:17 Where did your electricity go? 04:30:34 *adu* lives in the DC area, there was a storm 04:30:38 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 04:30:44 Ahh thats right 04:31:07 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:31:25 Sucks 04:31:40 nobody I knew died, unless you count my fish 04:32:02 I do. Sorry to hear that 04:32:44 the water stopped circulating 04:32:53 because the pump stopped 04:33:22 -!- anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:33:25 anyways, my cats are happy 04:33:30 they seem to like the A/C 04:34:44 GAH. poor fish. 04:35:38 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:35:57 anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 04:37:25 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:37:59 -!- Fare is now known as Fare_afk 04:38:03 cellularmitosis [601a1973@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.26.25.115] has joined #scheme 04:38:22 so, I just started going through The Little Schemer 04:38:31 and I'm already stuck on (atom turkey or) 04:38:52 the footnotes appear to indicate that for a real-live scheme interpreter, I should instead use quote 04:39:08 but they don't quite spell out how to do this. 04:39:12 my guess was: 04:39:12 what page? 04:39:17 (`atom `turkey `or) 04:39:23 DC area, that's why no AC there. 04:39:33 page 3 04:39:38 Groan! 04:40:14 cellularmitosis: in scheme, it's (atom 'turkey) or (atom 'or) or (atom '(turkey or)) 04:40:17 cellularmitosis: no, it's not at the point where you execute this. 04:40:20 I tried using repl.it, but it appears you can't just put a list into the repl. it tries to assume atom is a function, I think 04:40:24 and (define atom (lambda (x) (not (pair? x)))) 04:40:28 cellularmitosis: yes. 04:40:35 cellularmitosis: they're not saying 'run this'. 04:40:39 cellularmitosis: a variable actually. 04:40:42 oh 04:40:45 cellularmitosis: they are only asking you to understand what it is, syntactically. 04:40:49 cellularmitosis: but you can quote it: 'turkey 04:41:01 ah, thanks FurnaceBoy 04:41:02 cellularmitosis: it will not execute. 04:41:03 Try: (define turkey 42) turkey 'turkey 04:41:37 cellularmitosis: if you can verify yourself that you understand the question and answer., that's enough at this point of the book 04:41:53 gotcha. 04:42:15 but if I wanted to put this into an interpreter, I assume I'd do so by assigning the list to a variable? 04:42:23 and: (atom 42) '(atom 42) 04:42:24 pjb: where? 04:42:29 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:42:32 something like (define foo (`atom `turkey `or))? 04:42:38 In the repl. 04:43:03 `atom is not a function so the expression (`atom `turkey `or) is invalid. 04:43:11 unfortunately the repl still says "atom not a function" 04:43:12 atom is a function 04:43:24 cellularmitosis: and be careful, it's quote, not backquote. 04:43:31 oh 04:43:33 thanks 04:43:51 'x = (quote x); `x is something else, which evaluates to the same thing as 'x in this case, but could be different. 04:44:00 ah 04:44:09 Try: (let ((x 42)) `(a ,x b)) 04:44:31 so, why is it that I can assign 42 to a, as in (define a 42), but I can't do that for a list? 04:45:02 pjb: why were you wondering about A/C? 04:45:02 You can, but you must quote the list to avoid it being interpreted as an application. 04:45:07 (atom 42) vs. 04:45:10 '(atom 42) 04:45:26 adu: in DC, there cannot be A/C, since it's DC! 04:45:34 No alternative current in the direct current. 04:45:51 adu: just a joke. 04:45:55 no A/C in DC. 04:46:18 cellularmitosis: the executable equivalent would be '(atom turkey or) 04:46:23 cellularmitosis: so: (define a '(atom 42)) (define b (atom 42)) a b 04:46:26 aha! thanks pjb. 04:46:44 (define a '('atom 'turkey 'or)) worked 04:47:01 cellularmitosis: but it binds to a a list of pairs, not a list of atoms. 04:47:16 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:47:20 cellularmitosis: remember, 'x = (quote x) and (quote x) is a list of two elements, first the symbol quote, then the symbol x. 04:47:25 oh! I could have just done '('atom 'turkey 'or), thanks furnace 04:47:37 pjb: oh, haha 04:47:40 So (define a '('atom 'turkey 'or)) binds to a the list ((quote atom) (quote turkey) (quote or)) 04:47:44 cellularmitosis: no, just '(atom turkey or) 04:48:06 cellularmitosis: at this point, trying to execute this is getting in the way of the book :) 04:48:22 omg. I way over complicated this. all I had to type was '(atom turkey or) 04:48:24 lol 04:48:29 cellularmitosis: as I said twice. :) 04:48:45 cellularmitosis: but don't try to execute these yet. just make sure you understand the Q&A 04:48:59 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-250-130.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:00 thanks guys, you rock 04:50:13 furnace, I was attempting to execute everything because I wanted to also simultaneously do the same at http://tryclj.com/. i.e., teach myself clojure at the same time 04:50:59 ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-39-185.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 04:51:24 cellularmitosis: it's hard to learn different dialects at the same time. Better learn one language, then the other. 04:52:05 i think i agree 04:53:38 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-250-130.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:58:27 I see. well, have a good night all, thanks again. 04:58:30 -!- cellularmitosis [601a1973@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.26.25.115] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:06:35 -!- Guest57017 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:07:54 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 05:07:54 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:13:23 dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 05:20:33 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:33:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-100.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:47:18 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:48:28 -!- micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:52:20 micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #scheme 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[pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 10:39:14 Does anyone here know how to de-reference a pointer (to get a new alien from an alien) in the MIT/GNU-Scheme FFI? 10:40:36 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:41:55 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 10:47:50 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:49:10 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 10:50:25 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@37-144-137-54.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:51:19 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-164-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:56:09 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:57:40 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 10:58:10 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:04:12 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:05:06 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 11:10:13 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-164-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:07 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:12:32 aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has joined #scheme 11:13:24 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 11:15:24 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-254-139.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 11:19:52 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:20:59 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 11:30:14 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:30:51 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #scheme 11:33:06 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 11:38:31 icrazyhack [horieyui@202.120.202.55] has joined #scheme 11:46:14 Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:46:27 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 11:56:40 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:59:38 woonie [~woonie@bb121-7-16-181.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 12:00:47 jimmyrcom [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #scheme 12:06:26 "One problem was that Common Lisp was more descriptive than prescriptive. That is, if two implementation communities disagreed about how to solve a certain problem, CLTL was written in a way that sought to build a descriptive bridge between the two dialects in many cases rather than to force a choice that would bring the two into actual compatibility." 12:06:38 ^ from http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html 12:06:51 ... or Scheme's general approach of just not documenting either at all :/ 12:06:56 We are there now with Scheme. 12:07:12 Oh.. R7? 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#scheme 18:17:24 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:19:54 ijp [~user@host81-159-29-31.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:22:11 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 18:23:36 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 18:27:38 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 18:28:23 -!- nischayn22 is now known as nischayn22|Away 18:29:14 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-wcwnsingfzoyyhnx] has joined #scheme 18:29:58 -!- nischayn22|Away is now known as nischayn22|AFK 18:31:21 -!- nischayn22|AFK is now known as nischayn22|Away 18:35:31 Hey, folks; I'm working on a program that can load different modules at runtime; I've defined a convenience function, source, to load them: http://hpaste.org/70825 . However, I've found that although, as expected, the repl loads it with no errors, a new function defined there is an "unbound variable," whereas a parameter set there is successfully set. Thoughts? 18:35:53 (Also, when loading the module directly, the function works as expected 18:36:39 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-2-96-232-62.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:36:57 -!- Guest11678 is now known as micro 18:37:02 .) Am I going about this wholly wrong, or is there some resource in particular I should check out? 18:37:34 Also, the parameter in question was originally defined in the main program. 18:47:44 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:22 joyfulgirl, is that MIT scheme? 18:48:35 Oh, I apologize. Chicken 18:49:19 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:53:37 -!- woonie [~woonie@bb121-7-16-181.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:50 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:13 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:04:06 It seems I'd neglected to note that the environment-related commands were obsolete. 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