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[~graspee@02dd1c10.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 03:48:49 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 03:48:50 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:49:50 boring question sorry but does anyone have any thoughts about a good scheme book (available in dead tree) that will just about cover things for a beginner but also serve as a usual reference later? I'm using teach your scheme in fixnum days and and intro to scheme and its implementations at the moment. i've looked at the scheme Prog lang 3e online and it seems comprehensive but quite hard for a beginner 03:50:13 sicp 03:50:43 i have looked at that yes, but it seems to stray away from being a scheme book into being a computer science course that uses scheme 03:50:55 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip70-162-88-143.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:50:56 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip70-162-88-143.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:50:56 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 03:51:15 i'm looking for something more focusing on the language itself that will also serve as a handy reference even when i have more experience 03:52:05 graspee: reference books usually don't make good introductions to a language, and vice versa. 03:52:28 why is it important to you that the introduction you start with, and the reference book for later, are the same book? 03:52:30 i realize that, yes, sorry. i thought there might be something though 03:52:48 because i'm quite hard up and these books are not that cheap 03:53:07 and yet i do prefer real books to reading on screens 03:53:26 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:53:45 what's your current level of knowledge about programming in general? what languages do you know? how easily do you learn mathematical concepts, or do you prefer to avoid them? 03:54:03 my maths is shaky in some areas and just plain bad in others 03:54:09 answers to these questions will help determine which book is best for you. 03:54:28 i know c well, common lisp fairly well a while ago, prolog well but 15 years' ago. 03:54:54 well sorry let's say common lisp not that well and a long time ago 03:54:58 graspee: to be more concrete, do you know basic calculus, and do you find that a difficult subject? 03:55:09 i find it difficult yes 03:55:38 the maths that i do understand i find it easier to absorb when it's expressed as code rather than in mathematical symbols 03:55:52 okay, for introductions I can think of a couple of good books. "The Little Schemer" and "The Seasoned Schemer" are good books to start with.. 03:56:29 and although I haven't looked at it myself, How to Design Programs is also recommended by some people I respect. 03:56:42 when i used to use CL i adored Paul graham's ansi common lisp book 03:56:56 if there were a scheme equiv. of that it would be ideal 03:57:03 for a reference book, "The Scheme Programming Language" by Dybvig is good. 03:57:15 that's the one i was aiming towards 03:57:28 i thank you for the other ideas but i was aiming to buy only one 03:57:55 okay, I think that's probably a fine choice. 03:57:57 if my local library had a better computer section i would be ok 03:58:07 but it's all "ms word for the over 50s" 03:58:31 hehe 03:58:57 i heard that it was best to get the third edition of the dybvig book because it dealt with r5rs where the 4th deals with r6- is that right? 04:03:01 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:03:02 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: yes leaving] 04:06:49 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:09:35 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:32:07 albert-sicp [~albert-si@71.156.37.233] has joined #scheme 04:34:53 -!- kvda [~kvda@202.58.240.18] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:37:01 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:52 kvda [~kvda@202.58.240.18] has joined #scheme 04:46:56 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 04:47:53 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #scheme 04:51:49 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 05:05:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:06:11 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:16:16 graspee: that's a very controversial question. many a heated argument has been waged here about R6RS. 05:16:44 but R7RS is based on R5RS, so it appears that the future scheme standards will be leaving R6RS behind. 05:17:00 I happen to be in the camp that favors R7RS over R6RS. 05:17:17 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:17:21 Why do you favor it? 05:19:21 ok i should have worded my question differently. i should have said "i heard that the 3rd edition deals with r5rs and the 4th deals with r6- is that right?" leaving out the "best to" part 05:26:13 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-kkgilackdhxopmxh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:38:45 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:39:34 edition? 05:42:57 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 05:43:53 in case you weren't here earlier, adu, it was related to Dybvig 05:44:06 ok 05:44:43 TSPL? 05:44:49 yes 05:45:02 I actually don't know the answer to your question offhand, graspee. 05:45:18 (I'm answering yes to adu) 05:45:21 it's ok i can check the online versions 05:45:28 it's just slower ;) 05:45:44 Is R6RS a sterile and illegitimate spawn? 05:45:53 Sorry; that's a leading question. 05:46:29 since mark_weaver said my question was controversial i have no idea what the terminology for yours is! 05:46:35 What is Riastradh up to these days? 05:46:52 kilimanjaro: Working on some secret project that permits him to visit Cambridge now and again. 05:47:17 ahh, secrets 05:48:09 klutometis: just controversial 05:48:53 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:49:10 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:25 -!- albert-sicp [~albert-si@71.156.37.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:12 kilimanjaro: Merely unknown; "secret" is too strong. 05:52:13 adu: Really? I thought it was uncontroversially rejected, for some reason; maybe that's unfair. 05:53:15 klutometis: from what I can tell the people who don't complain about R6RS are a small minority 05:53:32 So i'm looking at some Lisp history, and m-expressions fall out of favor because of it was just less pretty than perans? 05:54:08 only in the lisp community 05:54:17 Mathematica is M-expressions 05:54:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@69.212.230.106] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:55:31 Weird. Also didn't most syntax was originally all captilized. Eg: define = DEFINE 05:56:05 youlysses: most lisps and schemes are case-insensitive 05:56:28 youlysses: so technically, nothing has changed 05:57:20 thank god back in 1960 no-one read programs and said "But why are you shouting?" 05:58:13 adu: I just started SICP and my first jump into Lisp in-general yesterday, so sorry for the stupid questions... :-P 05:58:21 graspee: XD 06:00:11 albert-sicp [~albert-si@adsl-71-156-37-233.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:00:13 :) 06:00:40 youlysses: I remember that some Clojure-noob was complaining about parens and devised some bizarre ad-hoc, ALGOL-like syntax. 06:00:55 I pointed him to M-expressions, and nearly implemented them as reader macros; but, alas, lost interest. 06:02:30 Homoiconicity of S-expressions is a big deal; probably more so than aesthetics. 06:02:55 did you just read the wikipedia page heeh 06:03:27 homoiconicity is not a word i personally have in my pocket 06:06:29 graspee: Heh; it's one of those things that comes up now and again but only, AFAICT, when discussing S-expressions. 06:06:43 Maybe it was invented for the sake of such conversations. 06:07:00 i think it's important too 06:07:32 for what it's worth 06:11:08 I personally like R6RS S-expressions a little more 06:11:46 hmm. that explains a lot 06:11:47 adu: With the e.g. exchangable brackets? 06:12:07 like why the r6 scheme i tried wouldn't accept anything i threw at it 06:12:18 (let ([x y] [other (cool stuff)]) (foo bar)) 06:13:10 adu: That's not bad; the fact that they're merely stylistic and not enforced is a plus. 06:13:27 That was a major headache for me with Clojure: memorizing when one or the other was required. 06:13:36 don't most schemes allow you to interchange bracket types anyway? 06:13:44 graspee: Yeah; they merely formalized it. 06:13:44 like () and {} and []+ 06:14:12 klutometis: I've never used closure 06:14:15 j 06:14:22 -!- albert-sicp [~albert-si@adsl-71-156-37-233.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:50 mucker [~mucker@183.83.42.176] has joined #scheme 06:19:33 adu: It's as close to a pseudo-Lisp as you'll get on the JVM, I think (SISC, Kawa, &c. notwithstanding). 06:20:14 Lot's of irritating corner cases, though; it's so Lisp-like that I experience the Uncanny Valley. 06:22:44 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:22:48 lol 06:28:56 klutometis: well put 06:29:58 Clojure is odd but has some nice ideas which can be pillaged 06:30:54 I don't buy the whole read syntax as visual anchors argument anymore though 06:31:54 in scientific studies involving me as the test group I found out that code consisting of just normal parntheses is just as easy to read, and more pleasing to the eye 06:32:13 parentheses 06:35:33 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-248-49.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:41:03 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-234-240.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:42:27 heh 06:43:06 when it's indented good.... 06:43:12 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#scheme 15:36:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-230-106.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:39:17 shardz [~s@ilo.staticfree.info] has joined #scheme 15:41:52 mmc [~michal@178-85-63-248.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 15:42:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:42:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:43:19 tupi [~david@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 15:44:34 klutometis: r6rs was passed with a super-majority of the scheme community and was implemented in many of the most significant implementations -- that hardly sounds like "uncontroversially rejected" to me 15:47:10 don9z [~user@124.90.57.122] has joined #scheme 15:48:08 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-154.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:48:53 -!- don9z [~user@124.90.57.122] has left #scheme 15:51:53 If I was an implementer, I'd implement the standard even if I disagreed. 15:52:00 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-63-248.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:52:21 Since R7RS is taking lineage from R5RS and not R6RS, I would consider it "uncontroversially rejected". 15:52:32 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:52:36 down wityh R6RS 15:52:48 down with tomodo! 15:52:50 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:52:53 in reality, it is a painful split in the scheme community. 15:53:12 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 15:53:18 one group rolled out R6RS over the objections of many people. 15:53:18 Quadrescence: neither of your sentiments are universally shared 15:53:24 but im not bloated 15:53:37 mark_weaver: i wouldn't say "one group" vs "many people" 15:53:39 and the group that got rolled over and didn't like R6RS is now producing R7RS. 15:53:46 "some people" vs "other people" 15:54:20 I consider "a group" to mean "some people". 15:55:00 certainly -- i just mean that your phrasing made it seem like there was a particular cohesive group behind one or the other 15:55:19 basically R6RS should be renamed RsucksR6 15:55:22 S 15:55:35 tomodo: i encourage you to be more constructive 15:55:38 tomodo: why do you hate r6rs? do you have a reason? or do you just inherit your hate from others? 15:55:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:55:45 the latter is all too common 15:55:48 ijp: it's so bad 15:55:55 right, so you don't have a reason 15:55:59 worst scheme revision ever 15:56:01 plonk 15:56:02 lots of reasons 15:56:15 tomodo: you really are a troll, and I can say that even though you're taking my side. 15:56:25 mark_weaver: you're a troll 15:56:28 ignored forever 15:56:44 :) 15:56:58 mark_weaver: do people who like r6rs abhor r7rs? 15:57:06 mark_weaver: I thought r7rs would reconcile everybody. 15:57:15 pjb: yes and no 15:57:38 pjb: those who favor R6RS resent the fact that R7RS is not based on R6RS, but instead based on R5RS and ignores a lot of what's in R6RS. 15:57:40 r7rs is much better 15:57:54 I have moaned a lot about its take on exceptions for example 15:58:28 mark_weaver: well, that was the whole point of starting r7rs just after r6rs. It was thought that r6rs took the wrong turn. But r7rs/big should give satisfaction to people who like r6rs. 15:58:31 You guys should just take a page out of PHP's book and skip a version. 15:59:03 mgsk: taking a page out of PHP's book is almost always a bad idea 15:59:11 15:59:19 *mgsk* is joshing 16:00:25 pjb: right, but because R6RS programs will not necessarily run on R7RS, those who favor R6RS are unhappy. 16:01:35 -!- fooc [~foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:01:43 mgsk: please, please, PLEASE. *no* pages out of PHP's book. 16:02:03 ah ijp already said it 16:02:13 *qu1j0t3* is redundant and may be garbage collected 16:02:44 well that was the shortest flamewar in history. These marshmallows shall be wasted. 16:02:55 rudybot: want one? 16:02:56 qu1j0t3: I want it integral! 16:03:06 rudybot: full frontal? 16:03:07 qu1j0t3: If both of your frontal lobes are intact, you're not cut out to be a web developer. 16:03:13 hehe 16:03:48 So, if R6RS created such a divide, why was it brought through at all? Does the "comittee" have absolute authority on the matter? 16:04:11 I say "comittee" because I'm not sure how the whole thing works. 16:04:18 mgsk: for no apparently reason people on the comittee voted FOR r6rs 16:04:23 mgsk: democracy 16:04:32 sometimes it does strange things 16:04:32 it's bizarre 16:04:41 The folks who produced R6RS felt that there was no way to satisfy everybody without the process getting stuck forever, so in the name of progress, they felt that they had to roll over the objections of people who they felt were just wrong. 16:04:45 They just were all tired, and there remained no coffee. 16:05:08 mark_weaver: they were right, and this permited starting r7rs :-) 16:05:41 err5rs was a strange effort though 16:05:54 is Larceny the only implementation that cares about that? 16:06:11 there's no centralized authority on Scheme, just a bunch of well-regarded people in the community. 16:06:36 fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #scheme 16:06:40 R6RS was published by a number of very well-regarded people, even though a number of other very well-regarded people were against it. 16:07:00 troll 16:07:15 tomodo: I thought you had ignored mark_weaver? 16:07:35 I'm sure that once r7rs is implemented and used it for a few year, we'll be able to make a r8rs that will satisfy eveyrbody. 16:07:37 maybe you shouldn't call people names then 16:07:42 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #scheme 16:07:58 lol 16:08:03 pjb: I don't think so. 16:08:25 tomodo: tomodo is your name... what else should I call you? 16:08:47 pjb: those who favor R6RS have written a bunch of code for R6RS, and will be unhappy with any future scheme standard that their code does not run on.. even if the later standard solves the same problems in a different way. 16:08:49 ok 16:08:52 You can satisfy everybody all of the time, etc. 16:09:45 What were the points people were unhappy with in R6RS? 16:10:08 it being absolutely horrible 16:10:16 mgsk: it was too big, it was too small, it specified foo wrong, it was written during the wrong phase of the moon, and everything in between 16:10:39 ijp: valid points. 16:11:19 some people also took offence at having to specify their objections 16:11:37 which I consider to be insane, but whatever 16:12:00 mgsk: the scheme-reports.org site has a summary of the reasons for people rejecting R6RS, but alas their site seems to down at the moment. 16:12:28 It's up for me. 16:12:41 peple should make up ther own minds 16:13:26 mgsk: okay, must be a routing issue.. anyway, there's a page on their wiki called something like SixRejection. 16:14:29 scheme should be beautiful 16:14:35 mgsk: there are also the email archives on the R6RS mailing list, notably the formal comments and ratification votes against, where well-respected folks in the community voices their objections. 16:14:37 wthat's what the commitee forgot 16:16:03 http://www.r6rs.org/ratification/results.html 16:17:04 mgsk: ah, found it: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/SixRejection 16:18:57 mark_weaver: danke. 16:18:59 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:19:00 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:10 Importantly: what did The Sussman have to say on the matter? 16:19:20 ;) 16:22:13 sussman is out of thre scheme game these days 16:22:24 hes busy setting up the next revolution 16:23:28 mgsk: I'm not sure, but he didn't vote on R6RS at all, and he's participating (sporadically) on the R7RS process. 16:23:44 mgsk: but yeah, he's focused on propagators now. 16:23:59 mark_weaver: hehe :) 16:24:04 mgsk: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/propagators/ 16:25:04 mgsk: Sussman has his own Scheme implementation that's under his control, namely MIT/GNU Scheme, which has made it clear that they have no intention of following R6RS.. 16:25:11 troll 16:26:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-230-106.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:26:23 mgsk: but then again, they don't really follow anybody :) 16:27:42 I must admit that propagators look like a huge step forward. 16:28:02 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.225] has joined #scheme 16:28:10 Sussman, as always, is way ahead of his time. 16:28:17 MIT Scheme is not related to Sussman. 16:28:48 eli: I beg to differ. 16:28:54 you should take back your accusation 16:29:08 -!- r_r_r [~chatzilla@77.126.184.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:29:37 mark_weaver: s/./ by anything other than ancient history./ 16:29:43 tomodo: people call you a troll because the vast majority of your comments are purely inflamatory without any content whatsoever. 16:29:55 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 16:30:05 "people" you 16:30:10 *mgsk* suspects tomodo is a bot 16:30:15 you're just making things worse 16:30:37 tomodo: You're slowly moving from being a harmless troll to being an offensive one. Please stop. 16:30:41 by trying to shift if from an individual accusation you made to some kind of cultural agreement 16:31:15 "purely inflamatory without any content whatsoever." cause just randomly insulting people doesn't fall under that description? 16:31:40 maybe you should take a lesson from your own advice and keep quiet when you get the urge to call people names 16:31:45 mark_weaver: Also, the constraint propagation stuff is ancient and an obvious thing coming from an EECS dept (and CSAIL has very strong EE roots). 16:31:55 tomodo: Plase stop. 16:32:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:35:45 eli: regarding MIT/GNU Scheme, perhaps things have changed now that Chris Hanson is no longer working directly for Sussman. 16:36:29 eli: regarding propagators, yes it is based on ancient stuff, but I get the impression that there are some fresh new ideas in there. however, I'm not an expert on this subject so I can't really argue that point. 16:37:16 eli: somebody must have thought there was something novel in here, since it's the subject of a recent phd thesis and further work beyond. 16:39:03 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:41:51 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #scheme 16:42:28 A quick question... Is there anything in r6rs or r7rs dealing with starting and communicating with processes, or is that all implementation-specific? 16:42:50 impl specific for now 16:44:08 Is r7rs likely to talk about that, or is it not on the plate for the time being? 16:44:42 who knows 16:45:04 r7rs large is a pie in the sky at the moment, and there's no guarantee anyone will support that module even if it is 16:45:13 On scheme-reports.org there appears to be a link to a draft for the small-language standard, but I don't see an equivalent for the large-language standard. 16:45:30 Mm, good point. 16:45:32 also large-language is a misnomer, but I digress 16:47:02 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:47:20 ChibaPet: I think spells has a wrapper for some r6rs implementations, but I may be misremembering 16:47:39 spells? 16:48:15 ASau` [~user@95-28-124-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 16:48:31 https://github.com/rotty/spells/ 16:49:28 Ah, thank you. 16:52:37 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-192-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:55:39 -!- bfgun is now known as bfig 16:58:52 mmc [~michal@178-85-63-248.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 17:04:05 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-63-248.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:04:07 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:04:07 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 17:04:07 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 17:04:55 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:08:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:09:12 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 17:11:11 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:14:46 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 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exponential complexity in the number of terms ... 20:34:35 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:15 the reason is that the fk pattern is not a lambda and if you have two exits to the next or 20:35:52 then the number of branches becomes 2^n! 20:36:05 I think that the fix is simple! 20:37:53 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-179-108.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:41:26 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:42:59 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-78.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:51:46 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 20:52:39 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:51 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 20:55:47 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:39 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-78.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:58:31 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #scheme 20:58:38 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 20:59:24 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:43 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:08:11 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:08:49 is there a way to access primitive procedures in scheme? 21:09:31 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 21:09:42 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:10:11 access how ? 21:10:26 e.g., use them 21:10:45 just name it ? 21:10:57 well. primitive might be the wrong word 21:11:03 rudybot: eval (list cons car cdr null? pair?) 21:11:04 ski: your scheme sandbox is ready 21:11:05 ski: ; Value: (# # # # #) 21:12:01 whether they are primitive or not (wrt a certain implementation) normally shouldn't be relevant, though 21:12:08 what I imagine is, that car for example is in fact something like (define car (lambda (l) (primitive-car l))) in the environment 21:12:35 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-78.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:12:36 maybe it is, maybe it's not 21:12:40 why do you care ? 21:12:48 I was just wondering 21:13:01 (nothing wrong with that) 21:13:02 My implementation's primitive procedures are perl CODErefs 21:13:14 (to the actual code that implements the function) 21:13:30 but it's hard to answer if you don't explain more what you're after :) 21:16:03 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 21:17:47 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 21:18:03 well. for scheme to be lambda-consistent its primitives also need to be lambda-abstractions, afaiu. so an implementation must arrange for that, if its "true" primitives aren't lambda-abstractions. 21:19:53 i'm not sure what "lambda-consistent" means 21:20:13 It's all about observeable behaviour 21:20:27 If it behaves to an outside observer consistent in every way, then it doesn't matter how it's implemented internally 21:20:37 in any case, there would be no problem with having `cdr' not being defined using `lambda', in the implementation 21:21:01 (as long as `(procedure? cdr)' is still `#t') 21:21:34 CL, e.g., is lambda-incosistent 21:21:52 think about (((lambda (x) x) add) 3 4) 21:22:14 or whatever CL's equivalent for add is 21:22:15 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-78.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:22:48 but I see what you mean, regarding procedure? 21:24:16 malorie: well I /could/ implement cons kinda like this, not that this answers your question. (define (lcons lcar lcdr) (lambda (select) (cond ((eq? select 'lcar) lcar)((eq? select 'lcdr) lcdr)))) (define (lcar lcons) (lcons 'lcar)) (define (lcdr lcons) (lcons 'lcdr)) 21:24:48 (funcall (funcall (lambda (x) x) add) 3 4) ; doesn't work ? 21:25:04 yeah. you _need_ funcall 21:25:31 but that's because CL is a Lisp-2 21:26:39 ski: well, it could have been decided that the first position needs to evaluate to an applicable object, instead of being a symbol bound to an applicable object. 21:26:51 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:56 which wouldn't violate the lisp-2ness. 21:27:25 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:28:02 not necessarily, anyways. 21:28:24 i suppose so (though i'm not sure what you mean by "violate the lisp-2ness") 21:29:02 -!- tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-24-0-148-151.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:31:04 i mean you could still have multiple bindings per symbol, but evaluate a list if it appears in the first location in a form rather than simply complaining that it isn't applicable. how to treat symbols that have only a value binding would get odd. not recommending this, just saying it isn't in and of itself a lisp-2 issue. 21:31:42 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:32:07 i'm wondering when you'd get the "function value" of the identifier, in this scheme 21:32:21 well, it wouldn't be a scheme. :) 21:32:32 heh, i meant that in the generic sense :) 21:33:45 (s/scheme/plan/, if you prefer) 21:33:56 you could take any arbitrary cl implementation and modify eval so if the first element of a form is not a symbol, evaluate it first. if it is, use it's function slot. 21:34:55 so `((identity foo) bar)' and `(foo bar)' would be (potentially) different then ? 21:35:32 yes. 21:36:23 still bad for purists. but slightly more convenient. 21:37:51 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-35-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:37:52 ski: compare this to how mapcar (etc) work in cl. 21:38:49 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 21:38:53 (mapcar #'foo a-list b-list) ; ? 21:39:11 hold on a sec. I may be going off the deep end. 21:39:38 *ski* makes the voorish sign 21:40:20 yeah, (not sure if universal) but (mapcar 'foo a-list b-list) should also work. 21:42:19 are you sure that'll get the local binding of `foo' (e.g. bound by `labels') ? 21:42:24 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 21:42:58 haven't checked yet. 21:43:02 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:43:10 -!- FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:45:34 nope, won't dtrt. 21:46:18 all the more evidence that this minor detail of (identity foo) not being evalled the same as foo isn't that big of a deal. 21:46:24 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-35-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:42 *ski* doesn't understand 21:46:57 that was a mild joke. 21:50:19 all of these problems revolve around the lisp-2 vs lisp-1 issue, and they aren't really problems so much as you just have to know how the given evaluation model works. and I happen to think scheme (lisp-1) is a simpler evaluation model to understand. 21:50:47 *tali713* goes back to coding in elisp. :) 21:51:04 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:51:10 *ski* more or less agrees with tali713 here 21:51:21 Well, if you start from lambda calculus, indeed scheme is easier to implement. 21:51:37 If I was to implement CL in lambda calculus, I'd start by implementing scheme, and write CL in schem. 21:51:49 *ski* nods 21:52:03 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:20 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:53:21 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:40 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:57:46 jeapostrophe [~jay@s10.BMT-w1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 21:57:46 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@s10.BMT-w1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Changing host] 21:57:46 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 22:01:04 FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:03:55 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #scheme 22:06:19 -!- FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:06:19 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:00 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:09:11 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 22:09:57 -!- DKordic [~CLDG@178-223-28-73.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:10:44 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-78.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:11:34 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 22:14:52 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:15:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:25:28 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-78.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:25:28 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f769db2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:31 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d066692.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:08 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:34:10 jeapostrophe [~jay@s10.BMT-w1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:34:10 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@s10.BMT-w1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Changing host] 22:34:10 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 22:37:22 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:48 bfig [~b_fin_g@r190-135-48-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 22:40:03 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-114-60.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:40:59 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-78.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:41:17 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-108-32.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:01 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:01:46 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:03:32 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:08:12 stis: the fk is always a lambda, that's part of the design 23:08:29 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 23:16:12 samth_away: You're absolutely right; I'm thinking more community-wise, though, after the fact; most community-supporters of R6RS now code in a non-Scheme Lisp dialect. Are they still Schemers? 23:16:58 klutometis: the same applies to r5rs, in so far that is considered the definition of scheme 23:17:10 and indeed, is the crux of my argument 23:19:44 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 23:20:51 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:20:52 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:20:52 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 23:24:10 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60059.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:32:09 -!- booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:36:08 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:44 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Restarting...] 23:47:28 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 23:51:36 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:53:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.39.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:57:33 ijp: In the sense that most R5RS-compliant implementations have non-standard extensions that people rely on? 23:58:04 By "non-Scheme Lisp dialect," I was referring to Racket; but maybe you're right: it applies to other nominal Schemes.