00:11:22 ramrunner: yw :) glad you like it. 00:13:23 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:21:44 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:28:43 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:33:01 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:37:41 mgsk [~Mark@li357-97.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 00:37:49 It turns out there are people-who-know-what-the-fuck-they're-doing-with-databases; and that these people are versed in black magic. 00:38:02 oh. 00:38:06 That, or maybe they know prolog and recognize that SQL is some degenerate prolog-subset. 00:38:23 klutometis: also, those people earn a _lot_ of money. 00:38:30 offby1: Ah, interesting. 00:38:45 klutometis: grab a book by Date to be introduced to some of that magoc. 00:38:47 i* 00:38:49 20 years ago Phil Greenspun noted that they were routinely earning $100K/year 00:38:53 klutometis: Date, C.J. 00:39:15 qu1j0t3: Sweet; that's a good find. Thanks, man. 00:40:21 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:40:51 klutometis: "Date on Databases: Writings" is a nice set of essays. "Logic and Databases" is the long haul. and there's also "SQL and Relational Theory" 00:41:20 klutometis: these are not, however, "Learn Yourself an Oracle For $100K a Year". 00:44:02 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:46:22 qu1j0t3: I have a basic intuition about relations and set operations; for anything non-trivial, though, I typically resort to multiple queries interspersed with e.g. Scheme. 00:46:34 klutometis: hm... 00:46:39 I wonder if a more solid foundation wouldn't give me interesting ideas on solving problems with SQL itself. 00:46:44 klutometis: dunno. 00:46:51 qu1j0t3: Yeah; tough to say. 00:46:56 klutometis: can you use derived tables? unions? self joins? 00:47:58 klutometis: i'd say probably not. there are 2 distinct areas / the modelling side and the querying side; Date helps with the former. for the latter, i fear only a lot of practice helps. 00:48:30 qu1j0t3: Oh, interesting; I suspected as much, too. 00:48:43 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 00:48:55 klutometis: i used to hang out in #mysql to get practice on other people's problems. that was quite valuable, but you need the time to invest. i also learned from some of the greybeards in there. 00:48:55 Haven't struggled within SQL enough to cut my teeth, probably; there's always the release valve of the host language, provided you can afford the efficiency penalty. 00:49:03 (inb4 mysql sux) 00:49:10 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-35-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 00:49:23 klutometis: i tried to avoid that where possible. 00:49:30 klutometis: mostly you can avoid it. 00:49:36 qu1j0t3: Resorting to the host language, you mean? 00:49:39 yes 00:49:48 Yeah; that's devoutly to be desired. 00:49:51 klutometis: when the host language is PHP there is a spectacular disincentive to doing anything at that level. 00:50:02 scheme, not so much. 00:50:27 basically even the worst sql is better than the equivalent php. 00:51:57 Got a poorly-scanned copy of Date 8e, by the way; might throw him a few shekels if it works out. 00:52:07 Looks like another one of the 1k-page tomes, though. 00:52:18 Might gather dust along side AIMA and TAOCP. 00:52:27 imphasing [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:52:27 Or CLRS, for that matter. 00:53:44 There's too many kilo-page tomes out there; Christ, for the days when C&R could describe a domain in a mere 250. 00:53:57 s/C&R/K&R/. 00:53:58 K&R ? 00:54:01 d'oh 00:54:05 offby1: Jinx; thanks. 00:54:35 klutometis: you might appreciate the top answers here. http://tinyurl.com/c7uv63t 00:55:16 qu1j0t3: Productivity hacking? Cool. 00:56:20 about the only thing that makes me productive is: having someone pay me 00:56:38 the ratio of what I accomplish at work versus what I accomplish at home must be about 100,000 00:56:39 klutometis, have you read the "Cow book?" 00:58:10 arcfide: Yes, but it came undone at the seams: . 00:58:18 No. 00:58:35 Ah, . 00:58:45 That looks more likely... 00:59:21 I find that that book is really pretty great. 01:00:12 And practice with things like Datalog and MiniKanren have helped in thinking declaratively too. 01:00:59 arcfide: Mini-kanren was great, actually; Cascalog (inspired, I think, by Datalog) was great, too. 01:01:18 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:02:35 A little ad-hoc, though; I imagine there are wizards that are actually productive in the declarative sphere. 01:02:44 Maybe it's actually time to pick up the Art of Prolog. 01:03:09 klutometis: i'm getting interested in Mercury. 01:03:15 klutometis: there is #mercury 01:03:40 klutometis: why don't you lurk there for a bit... it's livening up; someone is writing a book. 01:03:53 klutometis: and it seems well supported. i got a build bug fixed within 24 hours of lodging it. 01:04:16 qu1j0t3: Oh, cool; someone's trying to solve the logical-functional thing. 01:04:44 That always made me slightly uneasy dealing with constraint satisfaction languages like Kanren: it looks like mutation, and composition isn't really possible. 01:05:44 It seems like logical languages aren't hypotactic but paratactic. 01:06:32 Hypotaxis involves composition and subordination; parataxis, linearity. 01:06:45 Ah, too vague; I've got to write a little article or something to flesh that out. 01:07:14 klutometis: one day they'll invent the "blog" and you'll be set! 01:07:16 ;-) 01:07:57 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-35-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:09:10 qu1j0t3: Heh: I've been averse to that portmanteau for probably half a decade; haven't found a suitable alternative, though. 01:09:18 Weblog doesn't quite work; nor does diary. 01:09:39 klutometis: doesn't mean you can't use it by another name! 01:09:47 klutometis: would smell as sweet! 01:10:50 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:18 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:13:31 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 01:16:17 qu1j0t3: for a little archaeology, by the way; what was to become the B-word was coined that day. 01:16:18 http://tinyurl.com/73ydtq7 01:16:28 Even the OED mentions it; bastards. 01:18:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-65.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:27 klutometis: Betrayal! 01:20:06 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:26:08 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:34:39 tuubow [~adityavit@c-24-0-148-151.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:36:45 leo2007 [~leo@125.33.180.39] has joined #scheme 01:43:16 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 01:43:49 -!- masm [~masm@bl18-32-176.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:45:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:52:10 klutometis: as i mentioned, if you are confident with derived tables, unions, and self joins, then you're on the way 01:54:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@125.33.180.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:03:42 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-24-0-148-151.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:48 doc_who [~doc_who@pool-96-241-42-178.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:11:54 qu1j0t3: Still padawan, though; need to cut my teeth, so to speak. 02:12:28 klutometis: focus on getting those 3 down, is my advice. 02:15:33 leo2007 [~leo@123.116.117.152] has joined #scheme 02:19:33 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05:33:00 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:33:54 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 05:34:09 I like symbolic programming. 05:35:26 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 05:36:33 me too 05:36:38 me three 05:36:53 i use programming to illuminate the subconscious 05:40:37 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:40:38 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:44:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-230-154.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:45:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@69.212.230.154] has joined #scheme 05:48:58 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:49:46 albert-sicp [~albert-si@adsl-71-156-37-233.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:54:01 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-191-60.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:58:35 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-79-134.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:00:04 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:00:28 mucker [~mucker@183.83.42.176] has joined #scheme 06:07:03 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:09:19 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-79-134.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:13:59 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-191-60.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:17:25 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:17:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-106.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:18:33 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 06:20:34 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@69.212.230.154] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:28:37 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:28:38 kvda [~kvda@124-168-182-229.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 06:28:39 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:30:58 tomodo: Procedural Rorschach? 06:31:47 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.42.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:31:55 mucker [~mucker@183.83.42.176] has joined #scheme 06:34:38 -!- albert-sicp [~albert-si@adsl-71-156-37-233.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:13 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 06:40:33 tomodo: (define x (parameter #)) (define (oedipize) (if (x) (fuck mother) (kill father))) 06:40:40 tomodo: Find `x'. 06:44:11 Hmm, come to think of it: that looks like Morton's fork; or maybe Scylla and Charybdis. 06:44:40 rudybot: The only winning move is not to play. 06:44:41 klutometis: the more violent species often wins at survival and we were the ones winning that particular match.. 06:49:32 *klutometis* predicts, incidentally, that they're going to remake WarGames within the decade. 06:49:50 Oh, snap; got scooped: . 06:51:04 a language that invents new languages... 06:51:38 -!- fowl [~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:02 fowl [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:55:14 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:58:25 that is a powerful language I would say. 06:58:27 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:01:52 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:03:14 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-168-182-229.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:04:01 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:04:13 kudkudyak [~user@94.72.146.216] has joined #scheme 07:10:02 wollw_ [~davidsher@75-101-85-170.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 07:10:08 -!- wollw 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[~kvda@124-168-182-229.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 10:00:44 masm [~masm@bl18-32-176.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:10:57 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 10:11:10 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:13:47 icrazyhack [~horieyui@202.120.202.123] has joined #scheme 10:26:20 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 10:27:10 ijp [~user@host86-174-103-193.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 11:02:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:35:47 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 11:40:44 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD608E4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:44:34 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:35:20 rudybot: (+ 1 2) 12:35:21 pjb: your sandbox is ready 12:35:21 pjb: ; Value: 3 12:35:40 rudybot: (+ 1 2) 12:35:41 tomodo: your sandbox is ready 12:35:41 tomodo: ; Value: 3 12:36:16 rudybot: (^ (^ (^ (^ 2 2) 2) 2) 2) 12:36:17 tomodo: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: ^ in module: 'program 12:38:27 rudybot: (* 3 2) 12:38:28 pjb: ; Value: 6 12:41:33 lem_e_tweakit [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 12:41:39 getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 12:42:24 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 12:44:38 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d067284.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:44:46 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77b9a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 12:50:32 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-191-60.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:54:52 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-248-49.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:01:28 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.133.18] has joined #scheme 13:01:34 tuubow [~adityavit@c-24-0-148-151.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:01:52 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 13:24:07 tutysra_ [~tutysra@106.197.113.38] has joined #scheme 13:29:06 hi room, some question reg starting with sicp... if am starting with SICP now which video lectures are more relevant while reading the book - UC Berkeleys lectures or MIT OCW? 13:30:11 http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 13:30:16 I'd say. 13:30:43 i saw the mapping from the video lectures to the sections in the book and I could see that is no one to one correspondence - http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-text-to-video-map 13:31:07 Furthermore, the lectures used the first edition of the book. 13:35:53 yes, that is the reason I am bringing it up here, are these lectures still the preferred choice when we have the lectures from UC Berkeley following the latest version of the book 13:36:16 I could see that many online study groups formed recently also use the MIT OCW videos 13:36:41 tutysra_: videos goodness is not the fidelity byte-by-byte to the book! 13:36:52 It's the multi-media experience, and seeing the authors live! 13:37:39 right, that might be one of the reason many people are inclined towards the OCW videos 13:40:30 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:44:13 pjb : thx for the suggestions...many people can't give straight answers to questions like this, thanks for helping 13:44:19 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 13:48:24 tutysra__ [~tutysra@122.179.55.43] has joined #scheme 13:49:14 -!- tutysra_ [~tutysra@106.197.113.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:58:08 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:58:09 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:58:09 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 13:58:23 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:56 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@202.120.202.123] has quit [Quit: http://www.cnblogs.com/crazyhack] 13:59:03 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 13:59:25 -!- pjb is now known as Guest5582 14:01:12 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:02:55 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:06:49 FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 14:08:41 woonie2 [~woonie@86.190.241.49.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:11:54 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-230-154.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:21:07 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:22:51 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:24:14 ohgodno [~Firat@141.70.82.221] has joined #scheme 14:24:21 ello ye scheming bastids 14:24:46 ohgodno: hi 14:25:15 ive a question - syntax of scheme's if statement is if () a b, do i understand then that if true, then a, else b ? 14:25:48 (if () a b ), rather 14:28:36 syntax: if 14:28:51 Syntax: , , and may be arbitrary expressions. 14:29:01 sweet 14:29:02 Citation from: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r5rs_6.html#SEC30 14:30:53 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:33:58 ohgodno: some schemes provide WHEN and UNLESS too 14:34:23 that's pretty cool actually 14:34:50 ohgodno_ [~Firat@141.70.82.221] has joined #scheme 14:35:30 when and unless are pretty cool 14:36:35 ohgodno_: 'e not afraid of any predicate 14:36:44 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-96-241-42-178.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:49 mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 14:36:51 *qu1j0t3* injects memespam 14:36:54 mark_weaver: ola. 14:37:02 -!- Guest5582 is now known as pjb` 14:37:11 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 14:37:23 hi qu1j0t3! 14:37:39 mark_weaver: how's your CAS conversation going? 14:38:46 -!- ohgodno [~Firat@141.70.82.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:39:01 tutysra__: regarding which video lectures to watch with SICP, I would also strongly recommend using the MIT ones. The fact that they use the first edition of the book is not nearly as much of an impedance mismatch as the fact that the Berkeley ones don't even use Scheme. 14:39:59 qu1j0t3: it was very noisy in there, and I've been distracted with other things, so I haven't continued it yet. but I _do_ want to pick Quadrescence's brain about his thoughts on CASs when I have some free time. 14:41:01 mark_weaver: yes ... it's a principal interest of his. 14:44:42 -!- ohgodno_ is now known as ohgodno 14:45:06 tutysra__: anyway, the lectures should not be considered an alternative to reading the book itself. they are only a supplement, and for that purpose they are excellent. 14:45:11 tupi [~david@177.108.65.191] has joined #scheme 14:47:22 mkumm [~mkumm@75-38-166-175.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:49:25 tomobrien [~tomobrien@host-92-2-79-163.as43234.net] has joined #scheme 14:58:46 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:59:26 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 15:04:28 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:04:59 jao [~user@160.Red-81-39-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:05:14 -!- jao [~user@160.Red-81-39-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:05:14 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 15:07:55 dzhus [~dzhus@128-72-23-240.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:08:21 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-168-182-229.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: x__x] 15:10:03 -!- FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:15:38 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:04 -!- woonie2 [~woonie@86.190.241.49.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:26:41 FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:28:00 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:28:02 m4burns [~m4burns@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 15:28:07 -!- xwl [~user@123.108.223.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:29:03 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 15:39:28 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 15:39:35 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #scheme 15:40:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-106.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:44:15 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 15:47:18 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 15:48:54 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:34 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:50:45 mark_weaver : I was referring to the old version of the course taught at Berkeley where they used Scheme, not MIT scheme tough, they were using UCB scheme 15:51:22 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:52:39 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:24 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:57:55 -!- mkumm [~mkumm@75-38-166-175.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 15:59:35 what made the UC Berkeley offering look interesting to me was the neat arrangement of the lectures with a nice lecture notes and pointers to what should I read from the book before/after every lecture. As a beginner I found that kind presentation more comfortable, I found a partial mapping between the lectures and book sections here - http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-text-to-video-map 16:00:06 * I found a partial mapping between the MIT lectures and book sections here - http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-text-to-video-map 16:00:33 tutysra__: I like the neat arrangement I get from wget or torrent files downloaded in my directory. ls -l shows them in a nice alphabetical arrangement. mplayer * plays them nicely in order. 16:02:06 -!- tupi [~david@177.108.65.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:10 pjb : sorry by arrangement I mean the correspondence (one-to-one mapping) between the topics in the book and the lectures. I checked the first few videos of UC Berkeleys, not sure of the remaining 16:04:11 kilimanja [~kilimanja@ip70-162-88-143.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 16:05:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:17:27 tutysra__: Having not watched the Berkeley lectures, I have no idea how they compare with the MIT ones, but personally I don't see a serious problem with the lack of an explicit mapping between lectures to book sections. 16:19:19 it's probably fine to just watch a lecture and then read until you have consumed what was covered in the lecture. 16:19:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:20:07 has anyone here watched both the MIT lectures and the Berkeley lectures, so they can comment on their relative strengths/weaknesses? 16:20:31 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 16:21:28 tutysra__: the one thing I can say with confidence is: make sure to do plenty of exercises. it is never enough to just read/watch. it may work well at first, but as the course progresses, your understanding will become increasingly superficial unless you do the work. 16:25:39 sad but true 16:25:49 and I say this as someone who rarely does the exercises 16:27:21 rudybot: that explains so much about you :P 16:27:22 ijp: the elisp manual before 23 explains them, 23 inexplicably drops that without making them illegal 16:27:43 yes...I could see that this point in emphasized at many places...thank you very much for the advice. I am planning to follow the schedule followed in the MIT course but at 1/2 the speed. 16:29:15 tutysra__: yes, there's no need to rush. in fact, I see no reason to decide ahead of time what the speed will be. 16:29:16 mark_weaver: +1 16:32:46 tupi [~david@177.109.30.241] has joined #scheme 16:37:44 -!- mgsk [~Mark@li357-97.members.linode.com] has left #scheme 16:38:03 mgsk [~Mark@li357-97.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 16:38:57 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: yes leaving] 16:42:55 -!- kilimanja [~kilimanja@ip70-162-88-143.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:48:23 mark_weaver : yes, I guess this is a long journey, If I don't have a schedule then I might develop a tendency to postpone things 16:51:57 hive-min1 [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 16:53:23 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:53:40 I checked for on-line study groups and none are active at present, so having a schedule is my only defense against procrastination 16:56:06 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:34 tutysra__: fair enough, that is indeed an excellent reason to set a pace for yourself ahead of time :) 17:00:08 as a long term procrastinator, I can't say schedules have ever helped much :P 17:00:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:02:12 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r190-135-57-187.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 17:03:08 ijp : better to join some study group 17:05:28 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-52-144-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:11:19 -!- tupi [~david@177.109.30.241] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11:40 ijp: external commitments help me. I'm very good about getting work done at $JOB. 17:11:50 In fact I'm so good at it that people actually pay me 17:12:42 offby1: what are your spare time interests? (apart from irc) 17:13:42 offby1: that's a special case of my strategy of guilt-driven-development 17:14:58 qu1j0t3: heh. Very few. Eating out; rubbing the cat's belly; walking around with Mrs Offby1. 17:15:07 offby1: :) 17:15:10 Stealing neighbor's cats. 17:15:17 o.O 17:15:21 lol 17:15:23 they had it coming 17:15:38 Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition 17:15:44 I know I never do. 17:15:53 offby1: they don't ring the doorbell. Buggers. 17:18:14 rudybot: how do you deal with procrastination? 17:18:14 ijp: install a text editor that will provide a constant source of distraction and procrastination as he customizes it. 17:18:31 so, keep going till you overflow, gotcha 17:20:04 ... 17:20:12 ijp: amazing how you speak rudybot. it's gibberish to me. 17:20:35 qu1j0t3: actually I know exactly what was meant ;p 17:21:15 leppie: yes. 17:21:21 leppie: i couldn't parse ijp though, this time/. 17:21:44 oh lol, i thought you meant rudybot, not ijp 17:22:08 leppie: i kinda misspoke. rudybot was lucid this time agreed. 17:22:16 rudybot: that's unusual. 17:22:17 qu1j0t3: when I built emacs on gentoo, my emacs left bar seems unusual, did I miss some library? 17:22:53 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:23:59 qu1j0t3: the important thing when speaking rudybot is to not be too constrained by conversational norms 17:25:05 ijp: so channel klutometis then? 17:25:12 pretty much 17:26:59 rudybot: the important thing is that words are spoken; not that they make sense. 17:27:01 ijp: since in russian there are no (well, practically) silent consonants, you just need to remember how the word is spoken to know there is no "" 17:27:23 see also political punditry 17:27:24 rudybot: bom saber 17:27:25 qu1j0t3: raX pingveno puff pearle lusory e1f stopdan thomases necronian tromey twem2 bigjust hohum_ cods SaBer_ NaCl mhatta____ callen fds ieure occamsha1chet CosmicRa` chr`` vk0_ kanru Riviera blomqvist thoolihan antoszka Dodek illovae bremner_ Iceland_jack Nightwolf aburgess Hun venk xristos derrida drewr cschneid_ hroptatyr johnsu01 dropdrive tsbtmn RushPL_ magcius mathk_ jeekl redheadphones Bodil tg ganbold raavan mathri 17:27:46 o.O 17:28:19 *ijp* nods approvingly at rudybot's demonstration of the lesson 17:29:46 rudybot: squank 17:29:46 *offby1: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 17:29:52 rudybot: obliquoy 17:29:53 *offby1: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 17:30:23 rudybot: obloquy 17:30:24 qu1j0t3: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 17:30:48 offby1: methinks your expectations are excessive 17:31:10 rudybot: help a guy out 17:31:11 qu1j0t3: expecting: help [] 17:31:26 rudybot: fair fa' your honest, sonsie face 17:31:28 ijp: I was so stunned by the images in F&A I ordered the BluRay to watch the rest of it. 17:31:38 lastwill [~will@bb1.reu.188-115-66-202.adsl.only.fr] has joined #scheme 17:32:57 "fa" 17:33:01 hadda look at the logs 17:34:08 rudybot: but i just had to look, having read the book 17:34:08 qu1j0t3: just a power book from 2005 17:35:33 *offby1* blows rudybot's mind out with a flaregun 17:37:09 rudybot: say, lucky he missed 17:37:14 qu1j0t3: heh. I'd be lucky to convince my *grocer* of anything! 17:38:13 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71961b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 17:40:40 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:48 *offby1* blows rudybot's mind out with a celery stalk 17:41:03 And the crowd of people turns away 17:42:14 rudybot: now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall 17:42:18 qu1j0t3: albert : in case you haven't figured it out, you recursively call `cont-frac' with one argument .. 17:42:27 rudybot: I'd love to turn you off 17:42:29 qu1j0t3: Maybe they could just wall off LA and turn it into a penal colony 17:42:53 rudybot: that's uncontroversial 17:42:53 qu1j0t3: I think that's a relatively uncontroversial statement (barring a few animal rights activists). 17:50:55 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:53:47 -!- lastwill [~will@bb1.reu.188-115-66-202.adsl.only.fr] has left #scheme 18:04:27 -!- 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20:54:50 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:55:58 FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:58:56 -!- fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:01:09 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:13 fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:57 -!- ohgodno [~Firat@141.70.82.221] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:10:19 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:14:47 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #scheme 21:16:11 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:16:32 So I'm reading through the rabbit thesis right now, and I was pleasantly surprised to see hygienic definitions for BLOCK, AND and OR 21:17:21 just goes to show that Schemers have been taking variable capture seriously for a _long_ time :) 21:23:56 -!- kevin001 [52f0a8a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.240.168.162] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:24:49 -!- fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:06 albert-sicp [~albert-si@adsl-71-156-37-233.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:08 fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:47 ijp: I read the Rabbit thesis quite recently! it's amazing how far ahead of their time those folks were :) 21:29:35 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-kkgilackdhxopmxh] has joined #scheme 21:35:05 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 21:38:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-83.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:41:58 where can I read it? 21:42:06 let me google. 21:43:26 is it rabbit a compiler for scheme? 21:43:29 -!- fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:44:10 lcc: yes 21:44:16 sweet 21:44:53 I recommend reading "Lambda: the ultimate declarative" first, because the thesis is sort of a continuation of the work in that paper 21:45:06 pun intended? 21:45:12 oh ok 21:45:16 hehe 21:45:23 no, it was accidental 21:45:50 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:46:23 keep in mind that they are using a very early version of Scheme, quite a bit different than modern scheme. 21:47:39 at the time, the idea of even using lexical scope was a very fringe idea. everyone thought it was hopelessly inefficient, and not suitable for practical use. it actually turns out that lexical scope can be made _much_ faster than dynamic scope, when you compile it anyway. 21:48:22 Rabbit was the first work that really proved that it could be done efficiently. 21:48:39 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-24-0-148-151.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:16 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 21:51:15 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:18 fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #scheme 21:53:38 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