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[~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:20:43 simathur_ [~simathur@192.100.106.9] has joined #scheme 07:20:50 sestisr [~chatzilla@138.227.189.9] has joined #scheme 07:21:47 -!- simathur [~simathur@192.100.106.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:21:50 -!- simathur_ is now known as simathur 07:24:08 -!- letoh [~letoh@203.67.184.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:27:01 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:37:16 ahinki [~ahinki@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 07:44:42 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:47:32 RITRedbeard [~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:50:31 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:54:23 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:55:36 are let-cell and let-cells scheme functions? 07:55:55 More probably they're scheme macros (syntaxes). 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[~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 09:13:12 pub i see, so with macros you can create new syntax 09:13:19 *pjb 09:15:11 Yes. 09:18:37 masm [~masm@bl18-51-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:21:17 -!- astertronistic [~astertron@ip70-181-235-215.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:32:30 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:32:54 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:38:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:51:01 robolobster54: Tab-completion of nicks. 10:03:54 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:05:38 -!- sestisr [~chatzilla@138.227.189.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:10:36 -!- lastwill_reborn [~will@bb1.reu.89-16-4-82.adsl.only.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 10:15:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:28:34 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:33:29 ijp [~user@host81-159-28-102.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 10:35:28 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:43:37 klutometis, thanks. os x persists in trying to correct my spelling automatically 10:44:27 robolobster54: you can disable it. 10:44:57 i have. i did before, but it seem to reactivate itself 10:45:01 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 10:45:05 *seems 10:45:30 Menu Edit/Spelling and Grammar and disable them. 10:47:40 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #scheme 11:12:49 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:17:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-56-35.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #scheme 11:17:39 -!- attila_lendvai 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now known as pyro- 12:24:02 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:29:40 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:44 jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has joined #scheme 12:40:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:41:28 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 12:42:33 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 12:44:53 In scheme, is binding different to assignment? 12:46:00 it is closer to a 'definition with initialization' aka int a = 4; 12:46:03 binding "creates" a new variable in the environment 12:46:05 Do you mean (define ) vs (set! ) ? 12:46:54 leppie, ventonegro, ok. thanks 12:47:18 so you can say that's a "bound variable", as opposed to a "free variable" 12:47:19 LeoNerd, not necessarily, I'm trying to connect define and let to things I have seen in python 12:47:33 Ahhhh.. 12:47:41 well, Python is quite different to almost every other language in this regard 12:47:43 actually, it should be closer to 'int a, a = 4;' if that is legal ;p 12:47:44 arcfide [~arcfide@c-98-223-204-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:47:51 Python lacks a way to declare the existance of variables (name bindings) 12:48:12 In Python, trying to bind a value to a name either creates a new name, or updates the binding of an existing name. There is only one syntax for two distinct operations 12:48:27 I see 12:48:36 Thanks LeoNerd 12:48:58 so you need to use the ugly "global" keyword 12:48:59 I'm reading up on the difference between define and let right now. I'm interested in their different purposes. 12:49:11 Whereas in language like C or Scheme, there are two forms. int a = 4 and (define a 4) create a new name, it being an error (or at least a warning) to splat over an existing name, whereas a = 4 and (set! a 4) set a new value for an existing name, it being an error to try to use a name that doesn't yet exist 12:49:26 Convenience, mostly. 12:49:48 (let ((one 1) (two 2)) (+ one two)) is the same as (begin (define one 1) (define two 2) (+ one two)) 12:50:02 robolobster54: one important difference is that define establishes recursive bindings, let does not 12:50:19 ijp, recursive how? is that about scoping? 12:51:04 Look up the standard co-recursive implementations of odd? and even? 12:51:22 That wouldn't be possible with set! 12:51:33 Hrm.. actually it would. hrm 12:51:38 robolobster54: that is (define factorial (lambda (x) ... (factorial (- x 1)) ...)) is different from (let ((factorial (lambda (x) ... (factorial (- x 1)) ...))) ...) 12:52:09 LeoNerd: mutually recursive is the preferred term, corecursion is something rather different 12:52:11 From the two examples you gave, LeoNerd, I suppose that using let, the one and two variables are visible only inside let, right? And that this is not the case for the expression with define 12:52:21 Ahyes 12:52:59 ijp I know what you mean with recursion, but how does it relate to bindings? 12:53:20 robolobster54: well, the factorial in the body of the lambda in the let example does not refer to the one bound in th elet 12:53:34 it refers to the one in the enclosing environment 12:54:09 rudybot: (let ((a #f)) (let ((a (lambda () a))) (a))) 12:54:10 ijp: your sandbox is ready 12:54:10 ijp: ; Value: #f 12:54:14 robolobster54: You might wanna look at the difference between let and letrec. 12:54:19 rudybot: (let ((a #f)) (define (a) a) (a)) 12:54:19 ijp: ; Value: # 12:56:18 getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 12:56:47 thanks ijp, trying to figure out what that means 12:57:18 robolobster54: in essence, let is syntactic sugar for a function creation and immediate application (i.e. (let ((x a)) b) == ((lambda (x) b) a)) 12:57:41 so the argument a would not have access to the binding x, which is only visible in the function 12:58:38 That makes sense, I'm just trying to figure out how something like b could be a procedure. 12:58:58 I think I got it now 12:59:48 recursion is usually treated specially ,though this is not theoretically necessary 13:00:29 in scheme, recursive bindings are established with 'letrec', or with 'define' (which can be seen as syntactic sugar for 'letrec') 13:01:18 (or recursive bindings can also be established with de Y-combinator) 13:02:17 answer_42: yes, or through various other means 13:02:18 Mmmmm Y 13:02:51 oleg has some files describing many implementations of fixed point combinators in haskell and ocaml 13:03:00 (define a A) (define b B) BODY...) can be thought of as (letrec ((a A) (b B)) BODY...) 13:03:07 Which is baaaaasically how I implement mine 13:03:31 LeoNerd: Technically, it is letrec* ;p 13:04:31 hm, letrec* isn't standard scheme... 13:04:40 yes it is 13:04:54 r6rs, and the future r7rs 13:04:58 Ummyeah... that one 13:05:43 rudybot: eval (begin (define (b) 1) (define a (b)) a) 13:05:43 leppie: your sandbox is ready 13:05:43 leppie: ; Value: 1 13:06:04 LeoNerd: that would be illegal with letrec 13:06:56 Yah... I said "baasically" for a reason 13:07:13 rudybot: (letrec ((b (lambda () 1))(a (b))) a) 13:07:13 leppie: ; Value: 1 13:07:19 ouch!~ 13:07:23 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:08:14 rudybot: (let ((b (lambda () 1))(a (b))) a) 13:08:15 robolobster54: your sandbox is ready 13:08:15 robolobster54: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: b in module: 'program 13:09:40 sizz [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:48 mmm, IronScheme blows up spectacularly with that letrec ;p It used to assert at runtime IIRC, perhaps an optimization issue... 13:10:15 I forget quite the distinction between letrec and letrec* 13:10:59 robolobster54: (let* ...) 13:11:06 letrec* is required to evaluate it's bindings left-to-right 13:11:13 (or at least, appear to) 13:11:26 rudybot: (letrec ((a (b))(b (lambda () 1))) a) 13:11:26 leppie: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: # (no arguments) 13:11:27 Ahh... So letrec could be implemented by letrec* ? 13:11:56 yes, or the other way round. 13:12:01 answer_42: not really 13:12:16 ijp: why not? 13:12:33 Sorry for the noob-ness guys, but does (let (b (lambda () 1)) mean that b is defined as a function that takes no arguments and returns 1? 13:12:48 It's defined as a lambda, yes. 13:12:50 rudybot should be applying that logic to any order, guess letrec is just letrec* in racket 13:12:55 That lambda has the behaviour you describe 13:12:58 answer_42: leppie already gave an example of something that should fail with letrec 13:13:00 answer_42, what about let* ? (btw I expected the error in the expression I gave rudybot) 13:13:12 let* is a simple "one at a time" binding 13:13:39 (let* ((first 1) (second 2)) body) ===> (let ((first 1)) (let ((second 2)) (body)) 13:14:05 ijp: oh, I see... 13:14:36 by fail, I mean 'unspecified', unless the standard weasel words it 13:15:16 lastwill [~will@bb1.reu.217-175-186-87.adsl.only.fr] has joined #scheme 13:15:47 Ok, so what does the second let here mean? (let ((a #f)) (let ((a (lambda () a))) (a))) 13:15:54 (from ijp's example) 13:16:07 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c-98-223-204-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16:24 -!- lastwill [~will@bb1.reu.217-175-186-87.adsl.only.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 13:16:31 think of it as (let ((a1 #f)) (let ((a2 (lambda () a1))) (a2))) 13:17:14 lastwill [~will@bb1.reu.217-175-186-87.adsl.only.fr] has joined #scheme 13:17:36 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:17:46 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 13:19:39 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:20:28 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 13:20:35 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-158-140.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 13:20:56 rudybot: (letrec ((b 1)(a b)) a) 13:20:57 leppie: ; Value: 1 13:21:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #scheme 13:21:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 13:21:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 13:22:11 In IronScheme, (letrec ((b 1)(a b)) a) => 0 (ouch....) 13:22:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:39 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #scheme 13:22:42 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 13:22:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 13:22:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 13:23:13 leppie: does IronScheme do the whole 'fixing letrec' thing? 13:23:19 -!- simathur [~simathur@192.100.106.9] has left #scheme 13:23:57 ijp: partly as a side-effect :) 13:24:03 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 13:24:09 ijp thanks, that makes sense. i needed to read up on syntax, that's all 13:24:25 the difference seems to be mainly about scoping 13:24:29 right 13:24:33 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.14.240] has joined #scheme 13:24:50 rudybot: now for something completely different 13:24:51 ijp: malloc and alloca have completely different purposes as well. 13:25:24 but ideally, I would like to start using 'labels' instead of methods for procedures that are not exposed 13:25:28 alloca is also nonportable :) 13:25:37 scheme is pretty cool 13:25:45 LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #scheme 13:26:16 rudybot, what implementation of scheme do you run? 13:26:17 robolobster54: somebody would probably correctly point out that there's not necessarily any stack impact given an implementation that does tail call optimization 13:26:33 rudybot: version 13:26:33 ijp: 8a0cbca 13:26:42 *robolobster54* slowly walks away 13:26:44 rudybot: (version) 13:26:44 ijp: ; Value: "5.2.900.1" 13:26:57 rudybot: (banner) 13:26:57 ijp: ; Value: "Welcome to Racket v5.2.900.1.\n" 13:27:00 aha 13:27:02 third time's a charm 13:27:14 cool, thanks ijp :) 13:28:52 ijp: I do a little 'fixing' though with detectable loops, but that is just really TCE (rewrite to while (true) { ... } instead of tail calling the same thing over and over) 13:29:43 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has left #scheme 13:31:08 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33:08 leppie: for some reason, I thought psyntax may have handled that 13:33:24 though, now that I think about it, guile does it as a separate step 13:33:40 nope, psyntax gives you the ultimate in expanded code to deal with ;p 13:35:28 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #scheme 13:36:47 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:37:05 ijp: I trust the .NET JIT compiler to do a decent job, so I am not so sure how much of a benefit 'fixing letrec' will be 13:43:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 13:48:29 -!- mmc1 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:49:45 tupi [~david@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 13:50:26 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-158-140.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:52:11 fixing letrec allows you to identify which procedures are in fact loops 13:52:18 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:53:15 does the .NET have enough information for not emitting the procedure code at all? 13:53:24 JIT compiler* 13:54:18 it does inline small procedures quite well I belive 13:56:20 inlining is not always the solution, think about mutually recursive procedures 13:57:45 yeah, that is the only 'real' case I want to implement 13:58:26 ok I fixed letrec in IronScheme, but just the initialization issues ;p 13:59:08 heh 14:00:02 and I just got a great idea how to handle these checks efficiently :) 14:01:11 *LeoNerd* ponders a macro ( x => expr) to yield (lambda (x) (expr)) 14:01:24 basically rewriting (letrec ((var val) ...) body ...) as (letrec ((var1 val) ...) #| checks can only happen here now |# (let ((var var1) ...) body ...)) 14:02:14 LeoNerd: why not (=> x expr) :) 14:02:29 Because I like lambda 14:02:52 And isn't => already somewhat overloaded by a few other things? 14:03:18 yeah, that might be a problem in R6RS :) 14:03:26 ====> then ;p 14:04:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:05:43 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:05:58 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.129.194] has joined #scheme 14:08:58 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 14:11:26 annodomini [~lambda@173-14-129-9-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:11:26 -!- annodomini [~lambda@173-14-129-9-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:11:26 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 14:12:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #scheme 14:12:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:12:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 14:13:14 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has joined #scheme 14:14:03 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has quit [Client Quit] 14:14:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:19 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #scheme 14:14:19 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 14:14:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:14:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 14:14:37 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has joined #scheme 14:15:32 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:46 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has joined #scheme 14:17:13 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 14:17:39 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:18:03 ok this idea sucks, screw up the semantics... 14:20:27 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:28:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:29:03 kk`` [~kk@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 14:31:27 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:31:49 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:36:09 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@lilug/member/tdjacr] has quit [Quit: Restarting client] 14:36:48 TDJACR [~TDJACR@lilug/member/tdjacr] has joined #scheme 14:38:54 -!- ventonegro [~alex@cust.static.46-14-234-161.swisscomdata.ch] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 14:41:14 It has finally come to this, had to add a strict-mode? 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The only langauge to get its own Unicode block 17:13:00 :-) 17:14:58 rudybot: how would you solve this conundrum? 17:14:58 ijp: oh! a conundrum 17:15:28 *ijp* smacks rudybot 17:17:27 I think a lot of Perl's ambiguities could be solved with just one more handed pair, so we didn't have to reuse { ... } both to delimit code blocks and hash literals 17:18:52 (begin code code) (hash key val key val) 17:21:26 Heh.. well.. quite ;) But that's fairly verbose 17:21:52 The typical case the problem comes up is the dualilty of map, taking map { BLOCK } LIST or map EXPR, LIST 17:22:28 But a hash literal like { foo => "bar" } is an EXPR so when you do map { foo => "bar" } it isn't quite sure if you mean a code block or a hash and probably gets upset at the lack of comma 17:23:03 The typical solution is the rather ugly map {; foo => "bar" } LIST where the semicolon hints to the parser "this is a block of code, see how it starts with an empty statement" 17:23:48 I propose: map «foo => "bar"» list 17:24:12 Yah.. 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[~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:03:55 imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 21:07:02 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:07:58 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:20:32 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 21:21:53 What's the diffrence between scheme and other lisps? Syntax or somethinf more? 21:22:21 youlysses: many differences. you mean, for example, Common Lisp? 21:22:47 That's propally the biggest one, besides elisp. But yes. 21:22:51 youlysses: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LispSchemeDifferences 21:23:39 qu1j0t3: How's the world: any happenings lately? 21:24:09 klutometis: well hello. same old, same old. and you? how's the home routine settling down? 21:24:21 getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:24:32 -!- imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:26:39 Wow. That is a fair amount of diffrence. 21:26:45 qu1j0t3: Not bad, actually: I've settled into a nocturnal groove, having rediscovered the ambrosial night after some 2 am feedings. 21:26:53 Productivity up; genes forked. 21:27:02 Lost touch with the world, though. 21:27:29 I'm sure there will be some bias, but I'm taking a second attempt at learning Lisp. I plan no use Sicp. Is this the reccomended route? 21:27:36 *to 21:27:43 sicp is always recommended 21:27:54 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:28:07 if you just want to learn lisp/scheme though, there are quicker ways 21:28:18 youlysses: Yes: SICP; avoid, if you can, the legoins of HtDP trolls. 21:28:31 s/oi/io/. 21:29:35 ijp: I want to learn it, and become a "better programmer". I have essentially all summer, so no real rush. :-P 21:30:22 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has joined #scheme 21:30:39 Is the book highly reccomended over the video class from the 80's or are they about the same? I really have no prefrence. :-P 21:30:45 I highly recommend SICP! 21:30:56 youlysses: SICP in three months is actually pretty ambitious; you don't have much time to lose. 21:30:58 watch the videos while reading the book! they go together very well. 21:30:59 klutometis: i've heard it said that once you spawn Nature has no further use for you. apart from keeping the spawn alive, i guess. 21:31:25 mark_weaver: So they follow the same "lesson plan" I take it? 21:31:26 sicp ftw. youlysses 21:31:52 youlysses: pretty much 21:32:02 youlysses: yes. the lectures are given by the authors of the book, and the book evolved from the lectures. 21:32:36 (though the first edition of SICP existed at the time those video recordings were made) 21:32:37 qu1j0t3: That may be the case; nature can be cruel to bachelors, though. Maybe it's not such a bad thing to evade her gaze for a little while. 21:33:09 So I take it by the "rave reviews" that it aged well. :-3 21:33:11 klutometis: maybe Nature will support you in supporting the spawn. 21:33:31 youlysses: so has math. :) 21:34:14 qu1j0t3: True. XD 21:35:01 youlysses: to the extent that 'programming' books lurch into syntax and ephemeral topics, they will leave no fossil record. 21:35:04 youlysses: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/adopt-list.html should give you an idea. 21:35:28 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:36:05 I need to figure out how to set emacs to open conkeror by default, and not the non-existant lynx. :-L 21:36:29 *ski* . o O ( `w3m-el' ) 21:36:34 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:37:00 I have it ski, just not sure how to change it to it. :-P 21:37:39 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@95-24-110-75.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:11 i assume you have to add some `setq' thing to `.emacs' 21:39:43 I would to, but the question is to what. :-P 21:39:47 *too 21:40:39 youlysses: If it's Lisp you're after, PAIP isn't bad: ; you end up writing a Scheme in the course of the book, IIRC. 21:41:42 I'm more focused towards scheme. But reccomendations always welcome, I'll check it out. :-) 21:42:32 You can customise browse-url-browser-function 21:42:56 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6173A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:43:24 klutometis: a Prolog? 21:43:37 don't know if they have a setting for conkeror though 21:43:39 youlysses: Also, this is the physical corollary to SICP: . 21:44:04 klutometis: i am plodding thru early PAIP. 21:44:25 rudybot: say something clever 21:44:26 ijp: but org-mode is clever surely it can cope somehow 21:45:04 ijp: I'd be happy with w3m. 21:45:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:47:32 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: yes leaving] 21:48:27 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:42 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-39-85.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 21:50:51 youlysses: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BrowseUrl#toc17 21:51:35 qu1j0t3: Oh, nice; it's a different beast from AIMA. I like the idea of writing a Scheme compiler. 21:54:11 Then: Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz 21:54:12 http://tinyurl.com/ytswyk 21:55:11 pjb: yeah. 21:55:12 not to be confused with the other book he wrote also called 'lisp' 21:55:21 the universal acronym! 21:56:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:57:39 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:58:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:05 Hopefully brb. 21:59:17 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:14 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 22:05:09 Then: LoL , the incommensurable trollwork. 22:05:18 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@200.54.109.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:05:25 klutometis: :D 22:12:17 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:12:41 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:17:48 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 22:20:03 klutometis: SICP is directly responsible for turning numerous people off of CS. HtDP, OTOH, was written by people who have specifically optimized it to getting numerous people onto CS. 22:20:05 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-48-196-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:20:11 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:20:19 hehehe 22:20:27 Though your sarcastic and out-of-place implicit elitism/full-of-yourself-ness is typical for the excuses people make for SICP and the fact that "CS is not for everybody". 22:20:37 We (in the colloquial CS sense) are lucky to not have less of your arrogant kind. 22:20:40 inb4 CodingHorror 22:20:54 s/not// 22:21:16 sicp is for everybody , you just have to like cs ;p 22:21:22 and maths 22:21:40 it's the best book by far , (imo in any genre) 22:21:41 ;) 22:22:07 Nonsense. SICP was particularly damaging at its birthplace, where practically every student and ex-student that I've asked had a strong aversion to anything parenthetical *because* of that course. 22:22:15 LOL 22:22:18 not sicp's fault 22:22:26 also, htdp has been cited for flaws. 22:22:38 eli: then why do I love it? 22:22:44 Yeah yeah, it's the students' fault, of course. 22:22:47 pjb: apparently you're in the 1% 22:22:48 eli: no 22:22:48 eli: Am I better than a MIT student? 22:23:02 eli: that's not the only possibility. 22:23:22 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@uawifi-nat-210-69.arizona.edu] has joined #scheme 22:23:22 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@uawifi-nat-210-69.arizona.edu] has quit [Changing host] 22:23:22 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 22:23:37 pjb: You loved it because you're an old fart who didn't have anything better. 22:23:48 (I'm in the same category, of course.) 22:24:17 LOL 22:24:19 ok, so SICP is for old fart. It should be taught only at Old Fart University. 22:24:38 eli: i think we should just shake hands and agree neither book is perfect. 22:24:45 eli: the perfect book will be written by Quadrescence 22:24:50 SICP worked for me and i wasn't a CS major 22:24:50 eli: if i can get him to start it 22:24:58 turbofail: worked like a charm on me. 22:25:29 pjb: The thing is that old-fart-ism doesn't work in CS, it's too young for that. 22:25:40 (BTW, the implication that "loving SICP" is somehow related to "being better" is completely bogus.) 22:26:04 eli: nobody said that. 22:26:30 qu1j0t3: (it was pjb who asked if he's better than an MIT student because of it.) 22:26:42 i think he was joking. 22:26:46 srsly crowd, come off the ledge. 22:26:49 he didn't mean it in that context ;) 22:27:25 qu1j0t3: HtDP is obviously not perfect too (by direct addmission from its authors who are doing a second edition), but in terms of pedagogy, it is very solid, and that's compared to SICP which has no such aspirations. 22:27:28 yup , do not talk about sicp in vein , it's one of the 10 commandments 22:28:08 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 22:28:08 qu1j0t3: Meanwhile, SICP is stuck as this kind of a myth that lead to such fanboyism as ramrunner is demonstrating so eloquently. 22:28:25 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:28:25 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 22:28:57 fanboyism is rampant throughout computing in general 22:29:00 yes. 22:29:01 lol you can say what you want, but i really mean it is the best book i have ever read and i am a physicist so no real background in cs before it. 22:29:01 sometimes i think SICP worked specifically because i wasn't taking a class that used it 22:29:08 it's a cultural problem and partly explains ()-phobia 22:29:26 turbofail: yes. i know ppl who were put off Scheme by very bad teachers. 22:30:05 ramrunner: i hope you're joking. it is not a perfect book. but better than most books on programming to be sure. 22:30:14 ramrunner: Having a physics bg makes you one of the tiny crowd that benefits from some of SICP's major flaws. 22:30:29 eli: interesting point , go on ;) 22:30:51 The mathematical content of SICP scares some people, for starters 22:30:54 qu1j0t3: BTW, I'll quickly embrace "better than most" -- there's some amazing crap out. 22:31:01 qu1j0t3: nope i am not joking , to me it is compared to the works of landau in physics. 22:31:12 -!- ijp [~user@host81-159-28-102.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: knackered, but I look forward to seeing how this argument turns out in the log] 22:31:18 eli: cool. i think we agree. i'm aware of some of sicp's flaws. which is why i want Quadrescence to write something. 22:31:39 ramrunner: you only need to acknowledge some flaws. that doesn't mean it isn't a classic. 22:31:49 ramrunner: to say it's flawless is silly imho 22:32:03 can some point out the flaws cause i really am not in a level to find them 22:32:04 ramrunner: i can certainly name a few, and i love the book. 22:32:18 Computer science and software engineering are not the same field. The SICP is an excellent computer science textbook. It is precisely the reason why I fell in love with parenthesis after over a decade of working with Algol style languages. But it isn't a good intro to scheme, obviously. 22:32:29 qu1j0t3: The problem is that there are way too few people who are aware of the pedagogical aspect and are willing to invest in doing things right, and at the same time know good CS too. 22:32:34 ramrunner: sure, there are problems in exposition, focus, emphasis, and exercise construction, but EVEN SO, it's a great programming text. as eli says, most are garbage. 22:33:00 ramrunner: i love the book. but i can see soem problems with it (from a student angle mainly) 22:33:21 qu1j0t3: Take scratch as a perfect example of a lot of CS-side investment, but bad methodology wrt the pedagogy. 22:33:37 ramrunner: another book i cherish is The Elements of Programming Style. 22:34:31 That's btw criticism that is often raised from people who know how to teach, but unfortunately, many schools lack such people so they take the first thing that is shrink-wrapped in a nice-enough package ("ooh, graphics and sounds for middle-schoolers"). 22:34:39 ramrunner: some of the exercises phone it in. the last yards of chapter 1 are unnecessarily repetitive, i think. 22:34:39 imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:34:40 qu1j0t3: together with the videos , i can't find that can top it really , and i understand your point that "it could be better" .. but everything could be better even the unix design (and i love plan9 wich is "better") but that doesn't mean that unix can be really topped by something else (ok maybe a bad parallelism) 22:35:04 ramrunner: right. nothing is perfect. 22:35:12 i haven't read dijkstra qu1j0t3 :( it's on my todo 22:35:19 ramrunner: and then there is 'worse is better' 22:35:31 ramrunner: Coders at WOrk is a good read. 22:35:42 ramrunner: BTW, you wanted an example -- how do you explain recursion? 22:36:03 as a self-reference 22:36:18 qu1j0t3: downloading ;) thanks 22:36:33 ramrunner: yw! let me know what you think. 22:36:34 ramrunner: I'm talking about a *concrete* simple example -- what actual code would you use? 22:37:17 anything eli , from a recursive fib , to a (lambda (x) (x x)). i don't really get such a broad question. 22:37:32 lol 22:37:41 ramrunner, it's not a broad question 22:38:00 ramrunner: It's very narrow, really. You need to teach A Random Newbie about recursion, what example do you give him/her? 22:38:05 j`ey [~joey@unaffiliated/jey/x-00002] has joined #scheme 22:38:08 -!- j`ey [~joey@unaffiliated/jey/x-00002] has left #scheme 22:38:08 i would explain recursion in mathematics not in a programming context for a beginner 22:38:15 bfig [~b_fin_g@r190-135-27-158.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 22:38:24 church numerals are a good way to start 22:38:37 you're sick 22:38:39 and they can be coded easily ;) 22:38:58 hahahahahahah kilimanjaro :) thanks lol 22:39:09 LOL 22:39:14 ramrunner: A *newbie* -- and I'm not talking about a broad explanation "in mathematics" -- what concrete specific example would you use? 22:39:19 yeah, i don't think that's going to work for everyone, ramrunner 22:39:54 ramrunner, may I suggest that if you do want to make it mathematical, write a program to solve something like a recurrence y_n = a*y_{n-1} + b 22:40:16 eli i would say to the *newbie* to read any book he likes on programming , i am not a teacher and not better by any programming book author out there 22:40:25 so why to reinvent the wheel ;)? 22:40:48 reinventing the wheel would be less painful than repeating this conversation 22:40:53 hahaha actually kilimanjaro i would do that if he's into diff eqs 22:41:05 if not i would have to explain AAAaaaa looooooootttt more 22:41:12 ramrunner: OK, so you don't have your own opinion about the quality of SICP, why bother saying anything then? 22:41:46 eli: i have my own opinion , i just have the reason to argue with a guy in irc so fiercly ;) 22:41:55 ramrunner, what would you have to explain? 22:42:50 i have met students that dont have a proper understanding of the notion of a *function* in mathematics 22:43:12 so that's mainly the problem in my usual day to day work , not recursion. 22:43:16 ramrunner: how can that be? Is there anything simplier than a function? 22:43:28 pjb, a variable 22:43:37 lol , a constant? 22:43:41 hehehehe just joking 22:44:16 pjb, people have a tough time grasping the idea of a function as an object in its own right 22:44:17 a variable is a constant. ie it's just a function on a singleton. 22:44:40 but they are totally ok with saying something like "x is the time measured on a clock, y is the position of a car" 22:44:51 a function can be understood as bot a a set that is the result of an operation on another or as an abstract relation , so it's important to stress the + or - you get with each repr. 22:45:04 s/bot/both 22:45:23 ramrunner: Look up generative vs structural recursion, and see why SICP would be more appealing to someone in physics. As a sidenote, it means that church numerals are actually better than some of the alternatives, it's only the heavy symbolic barrier that makes them non-fitting for newbies (together with the rest of logic). 22:45:26 i think though the modern approach in analysis is the first 22:45:50 thanks eli , i will. 22:46:16 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:46:52 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:47:08 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 22:48:10 eli, can you elaborate on that point re: physics, without me looking anything up? 22:50:01 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 22:51:01 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:51:32 -!- arbn [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:54:02 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77bb30.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:55:06 kilimanjaro: It'll take a few minutes, I need to put some food on my son. 22:55:16 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbed0fd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:49 "in", i hope!!!! 22:55:59 otherwise, a nice joke that klutometis will appreciate. 22:56:00 "for" ? 22:56:52 habitue [~user@pool-72-64-203-156.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:16 qu1j0t3: http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushism-foodonfamily.htm 23:05:30 eli: interesting read. but it really twisted my mind. and maybe in 2-3 days we could talk again about cause i really think that if you take in mind the way to prove that newton's method is based on taylor expansion, maybe you could argue that this also is a structural recursion. 23:05:37 but i have to think more about it. 23:06:03 ramrunner: That (taylor series) is an excellent point in this. 23:06:12 (i meant: the way to prove that newton's method converges) 23:06:19 Yes, I know. 23:06:48 kilimanjaro: So the idea is that the basic kind of recursion (and induction, both being different faces of the same tool) is a structural one, 23:07:05 You're basically devising some function that works on some value that has structure, 23:07:25 eli: oh right. 23:07:34 eli: i try to keep that guy out of my conscious thought. 23:07:38 if that structure is not a recursive one (eg, some random record that has some "primitive" subfields), then such functions are kind of obvious. 23:07:56 You take in the composite value, and you compose an answer based on the values that are in the input. 23:08:31 Now, if you extend this to composite values that can include themselves, then you get -- in a very *natural* way -- a recursive function. 23:08:39 eli: ooh! i began to see this 'structure' business recently when i rediscovered de Polignac's formula 23:08:53 The beauty of this is that recursion is something that you get almost obviously. 23:09:15 eli: yes. integer partitions also showed this to me. 23:09:19 Ok 23:09:44 IOW, you don't need to get lost in the kind of things that confuse newbies, who don't know how you can solve an arithmetical problem using your own solution. 23:10:13 Because of this, teaching recusion using some structural input is very natural and very easy for people to follow. 23:10:44 The bad thing in CS is that when you need to teach someone about recursion, in probably 99.9% of the cases you'd show them `fact' or `fib', or something like that. 23:10:55 And that's one of the mistakes that SICP does. 23:11:14 In many cases, that's somewhat excusable because numbers are more known than programs. 23:11:32 Just show them a recursive drawing. 23:11:39 hahahahaha pjb 23:11:44 :) 23:11:44 But in SICP it's worse because the book does use a *lisp* and therefore they already have lists as a built-in fundamental datatype. 23:12:16 In any case, SICP goes even further in the mistaken path by doing more elaborate examples of recursion using things like newton's method of finding a function's root -- 23:12:29 Ahh, I see your point 23:12:44 and now it's not just knowning about numbers having some kind of a structure, 23:13:03 instead, you now need to somehow understand *why* you're calling yourself with "smaller" values. 23:13:04 eli: yes, some of tht stuff is laboured. the damping business was distracting. 23:13:21 eli: but that was HOFs not recursion, i suppose/ 23:13:25 *qu1j0t3* is just an amateur 23:13:26 yes eli but they don't hide the fact that you can use another number representation like church nums and solve that. 23:13:47 And that's not at all obvious! -- That's why I said that ramrunner's comment about taylor series is very relevant: to really know how the recursion works in this case, you need some very non-trivial math background. 23:14:38 qu1j0t3: Yes, HOFs are obviously good to teach with numeric functions as examples, but at that point in the book *most* students are still fighting with the whole notion of recursion. 23:14:54 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:14:58 eli: yeah, i didn't feel it was a good patch. 23:15:10 eli: i ploughed through it because i felt it would do me good. 23:16:01 In any case, you *can* do some structuring on numbers, if you do something like stick to natural numbers and go with something like peano arithmetics to make the point that numbers have structure -- but that's a very hard to sell point, since most people (especially school kids) are not ready to that kind of formal thinking. To these people, 3 is just 3 -- it's not s(s(s(0))). 23:16:19 :) 23:16:42 This is one big issue of SICP that HtDP addresses *very* effectively, by realizing that the kind of examples that you're using have a huge effect on what you can learn from them. 23:21:00 Now, HtDP is not sticking only to structural recursion -- it also deals with numbers, and it also has some examples of interpretation. With interpreters there's also a tricky point in that they're inherently recursive things, and the recursion there is not well-founded by definition (except for "simple" languages). 23:21:31 In any case, another mistake that SICP does is putting way too much focus on mutation -- something that can make simple CS very hard. 23:21:55 *qu1j0t3* nods 23:21:57 That's again a point where HtDP has a huge benefit of being written much later, when mutation was put closer to its proper place. 23:22:23 It's of course useful to know how to do mutation, but taking it to an intro-level course can have disastrous effects. 23:23:10 That was my reference to scratch: the problem with it is that, while it *looks* like an easy kid-friendly tool, it suffers from using mutation at the basic level. 23:23:59 That's something that I've heard from middle/high-school teachers, and something that is known in "HtDP circles": if you take a scratch "program" you see a bunch of blocks. 23:24:22 The "small building blocks" metaphore is therefore obvious, but it's implemented in a completely wrong way. 23:25:00 Such a block in scratch can do something like "move an object" or "increment a variable" -- and the problem with this is that these blocks are things that depend on their "temporal environment". 23:25:18 IOW, you need to have a complete understanding of how the code runs to know what they mean. 23:26:13 In contrast, some HtDP-like material that is adapted for kids (eg, bootstrapworld.org) is keeping mutation out, and the result is that things are *always* compositional. 23:26:38 monadic programming for kidz 23:26:40 You can always understand the basic expression in your code, and how they compose all the way up to full functions and the full code, 23:26:57 there is nothing about state that forces the kind of global thinking that you need to do with mutation. 23:27:13 except if you want to do stateful stuff? 23:28:00 Once you want to really deal with state, you should of course do that, but you need to be prepared for that -- and talk about it as an important factor on the kind of code that you get. 23:28:07 peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #scheme 23:28:18 It's a mistake to shove state down kids throats as the only way to solve problems. 23:29:07 (klutometis: BTW, IIRC you're soon going to face such problems if you want your younglings to learn some of this art... Personally, I find the whole scratch thing in schools terrifying.) 23:29:20 sure, they should have a prerequisite course in computer architecture so they can understand the deep implications your model of computation has on your code expressions 23:31:43 eli: Yeah; sorry, man. I've always been a quality-over-quantity fetishist. CS departments optimized for numbers in the nineties to capitalize on the bubble; the university-as-Java-mill decadence haunts us to this very day. 23:33:24 what's the required mathematical background to get the most out of SICP? 23:33:36 sizz, algebraic topology 23:33:48 ie, if you have that background you can get about 99% out of sicp 23:35:14 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:35:25 eli: You're exactly right; trying to introduce my four-year-old now. What's terrifying about scratch, by the way: mutation? 23:35:54 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:02 I was thinking about falling back on time-tested Logo; Logo is a dialect of Lisp, IIRC. 23:38:29 bfig: Okay, let me reformulate my question.. I have a background up to and including multivariate calculus and linear algebra; could I handle self-studying SICP? 23:39:01 sizz: Yes; thrice yes. 23:39:05 sizz, just go read it 23:39:21 okey-dokey 23:39:46 How did SICP get this reputation for mathematical advancedness, by the way? 23:40:09 Strikes me as a little weird; we're not dealing with TAOCP here. 23:40:17 don't ask me 23:40:48 If anything, I think it requires a mathematical intuition; but so does programming to a certain extent. 23:40:55 Brogramming, on the other hand, is a different story. 23:41:05 lets crush some code 23:41:08 Heh. 23:41:15 lots of my code should be crushed 23:41:25 sadly 23:41:33 hence my interest in SICP 23:43:17 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #scheme 23:43:28 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:43:49 sizz: Put a friend of mine through SICP recently; changed his life. 23:44:06 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:44:07 Promptly got him a job as a Scheme programmer. 23:44:30 Cool! 23:44:38 Do you know anything about Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation? 23:45:35 wait there are scheme programmer jobs?? 23:45:48 unpossible! 23:46:01 odesk is proof! 23:47:14 turbofail: I make them. Typical process involves infiltrating a company as $BLUB-programmer; reimplementing years of work in a couple weeks; getting management buy-in. 23:47:23 I've managed to do it at three joints; it's good shit. 23:47:53 hm 23:48:45 eli: What's your opinion of MIT App Inventor? (formerly Google App Inventor) 23:48:54 I was even responsible for "re-tooling" a gaggle of H1Bs; put them on Little Schemer. 23:49:28 You have to brave the prospect of getting fired, though, probably. 23:49:38 High risk, high stakes. 23:50:52 -!- Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:50:52 It's probably also a dick-move in some respects; or at least anti-social. 23:51:51 SICP worked amazingly well for me, but admittedly I have a good intuition for maths and was an expert C programmer by the time I read SICP. I now have a 1-year-old nephew who I'd like to teach Scheme to at a young age, and am trying to decide the best strategy. 23:53:00 (That's when I channel my inner O'Reilly; which is confined, incidentally, to FIWDIL.) 23:53:06 mark_weaver: What do you think about Logo, by the way? 23:53:52 klutometis: bill? 23:53:58 or tim 23:53:59 we'll do it live! 23:55:07 klutometis: I haven't looked at it in a very long time, never knew it very well, and my understanding of pedagogy is quite limited, so I'm not sure my opinion is worth mentioning :) 23:56:30 but based on what I remember, I'd guess it might work well initially, but at some point you'd have to make a difficult jump to another language. 23:57:01 mark_weaver: This is actually a good survey: ; not only is there immediate feedback, it support recursion and other interesting things. 23:57:06 Logo is a Lisp. 23:57:20 There are compilers and robotic implementations. 23:57:23 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 23:58:03 confab: Alas; but only with respect to FIWDIL. 23:58:57 interesting. the only thing I remembered about it was the turtle graphics :) 23:59:13 klutometis: i dont know what that means 23:59:27 confab: Oh, sorry: . 23:59:59 basically the complete version of what i said