00:00:47 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has quit [Quit: .] 00:02:24 amoe [~amoe@host-89-243-12-226.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:58 -!- airolson [~airolson@174.119.26.215] has quit [] 00:08:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-118.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:12:05 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:12:33 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 00:18:45 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 00:21:49 -!- chturne [~chturne@host86-136-158-113.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:29:40 -!- eMBee_ is now known as eMBee 00:31:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-118.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:32:53 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-228-226.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:34:42 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:35:20 jhemann_ [~Jason@108.67.91.121] has joined #scheme 00:43:16 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-228-226.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:44:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.198.71] has joined #scheme 00:47:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.198.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.222] has joined #scheme 00:50:19 -!- wingo [~wingo@70-36-236-249.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:38 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-53-190-40.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:58:50 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 01:01:23 wingo [~wingo@70-36-236-249.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:22 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:42 hey 01:05:43 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:06:08 I'm stuck on rationalize 01:06:24 bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-53-141-26.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 01:06:32 What's so hard about rationalize? 01:06:44 Have you ever gone a week without a rationalization? 01:07:15 cky: offby1: I can think of a dozen ways to implement it properly, so I need some guidance 01:07:27 this is irc, please keep the rationality to a minimimum 01:07:58 I'm thinking of implementing rationalize->exact, then an extra step to maintain inexactness 01:08:06 adu: I'm just larking; I know nothing about rationalize 01:08:48 adu: Yes, that's probably a reasonable approach. 01:08:53 offby1: rationalize->exact is basically what most newbies expect rationalize to be, and can be found in MIT Scheme 01:09:30 rudybot: (rationalize .1) 01:09:30 *offby1: error: procedure rationalize: expects 2 arguments, given 1: 0.1 01:09:32 the official R5RS standard rationalize behaviour is inintuitive, but easy to implement 01:09:33 There's an implementation in the IEEE Scheme standard. 01:09:37 rudybot: (rationalize .1 10) 01:09:37 *offby1: ; Value: 0.0 01:09:39 I'll post it when I get a chance to type it in. 01:09:41 offby1: you need a +- 01:10:10 does it mean "please turn this into a simple fraction with small exact integer numerator and denominator"? 01:10:12 rudybot: (rationalize (inexact->exact 2.5) (inexact->exact 0.1)) 01:10:12 adu: your sandbox is ready 01:10:12 adu: ; Value: 5/2 01:10:22 yep 01:10:33 rudybot: (rationalize #e2.5 #e.1) 01:10:33 *offby1: ; Value: 5/2 01:10:42 rudybot: (rationalize 20001.5 #e.1) 01:10:42 *offby1: ; Value: 20001.5 01:10:44 oops 01:10:47 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:53 *ijp* would have assumed rationalize was an exception to the rule when it comes to inexactness 01:10:54 rudybot: (rationalize 2.50001 #e.1) 01:10:54 *offby1: ; Value: 2.5 01:11:09 man, lag really messes with one's typing, y'know? 01:11:46 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:12:33 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-139.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 01:15:39 offby1: kinda 01:16:22 April can really hang you up the most 01:16:36 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.13.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:43 drumond19 [~drumond19@186.214.55.53] has joined #scheme 01:16:49 offby1: it means that, plus: we must obey the exactness rule, i.e. an inexact input should never give an exact output, and if all inputs are exact, then the output should be exact if at all possible 01:19:12 one option would be to convert to float64, then start deleting bits until it's outside the interval, and return the last one inside the interval 01:20:02 another option would be to iterate the numerator and denominator (whichever has steeper slope), up from 0 01:20:44 the first option has a limited range, but a worst case runtime of 52 steps 01:21:05 the second option has arbitrary-precision range, and could theoretically take infinity steps 01:22:31 *nod 01:23:27 I suppose I could apply the first method to floats, and the second method to rationals 01:24:49 ooo, I should look at the matrix with "no rationalize" scheme choices 01:25:43 offby1: anyways, the reason why I'm so insistant on implementing rationalize is that it's the only uncategorized function on my TODO list 01:27:07 :) 01:27:07 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-139.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:27:28 but doesn't that mean it's categorized as "uncategorized"? 01:27:31 All numbers are interesting! 01:27:38 *offby1* as you can see is not in a serious mood 01:27:46 whee 01:28:29 everything else on my TODO list is related to: control flow, syntax-rules, define-library 01:28:55 aside from those categories, I think I have a fully functional scheme 01:32:54 Whitesqu_ [~notwhites@94.242.169.7] has joined #scheme 01:33:07 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 01:34:37 `. 01:34:54 Oops. 01:35:02 quasiquote is partially implemented 01:35:13 I haven't tested what happens with 3 levels deep yet 01:35:28 but 2 quasiquote levels seems to work fine 01:36:00 cky: oh, I thought you were having a conversation 01:37:13 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.167.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:37:18 heh 01:37:29 I suspect he was just sneezing, or his cat walked on the keyboard, or whatever. 01:38:14 #;1> (parse-string "`.") 01:38:16 Error: unexpected: #\. 01:38:28 #;1> (parse-string "`whut") 01:38:30 (quasiquote whut) 01:39:02 Error: dumb spelling: "whut" 01:39:11 everyone knows it's "wut" or "wot" or even "wat" 01:39:13 offby1: snark 01:39:35 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c-98-223-204-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:47 whuht 01:39:51 Variants: say wut; chez what; etc 01:41:00 adu: Lol. No, I meant to hit ~. (terminate ssh connection), but ~ without a shift is `. 01:41:32 Usually, if I lose my Internet connection and regain it, rather than wait for the connection to resync, I usually just terminate the connection and reconnect. 01:41:51 Since I IRC inside of a tmux session, this won't interrupt the IRC session whatsoever. 01:41:52 arcfide [~arcfide@c-98-223-204-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:42:19 cky: sounds like a use case for "mosh" instead of "ssh" 01:42:28 Oh? 01:43:31 adu: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/RationalizeDefinition 01:44:02 offby1: Not if you come from the wh-pronouncing parts of the Anglosphere 01:45:48 jcowan: thanks :) 01:46:13 Let me know if it's buggy, I only copied it and C-M-q'd it, I didn't actually try it. 01:46:35 It probably worked when it left Alan Bawden, but things can go very worng when typesetting code. 01:47:05 aspirated "wh" sounds weird to me 01:47:16 sounds like Knuth: "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it" 01:47:23 Exactly! 01:47:42 offby1: My wife does it (North Carolina is one of those places), so I'm very used to it. 01:48:28 jcowan: Your wife is from NC? Does it mean you guys visit NC often? 01:48:37 *cky* currently lives in Raleigh, NC. 01:48:44 No, essentially never. She has no relatives left there. 01:48:49 Fair enough. 01:48:49 jcowan: I'm about 2 hours from NC 01:48:52 We went there on a trip once. 01:49:00 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Hw-w_merger.svg <-- map of wh-region, to which should be added Scotland. 01:49:13 lol 01:49:23 (I'm a New Zealander, however, and so I pronounce things with a New Zealand accent.) 01:49:30 looks like a W 01:49:44 Which means I say wh just like w, unless I'm speaking Maori words. 01:50:00 *jcowan* nods. 01:50:00 (In Maori, wh should sound like f or ph.) 01:50:11 I think Andrew Garrand is from down under 01:50:15 Presumably when Maori was first written down, it did sound like wh. 01:50:26 Certainly possible. 01:50:47 *offby1* visits SW NC every once in a while 01:51:00 offby1: You mean like Charlotte? Or more like, say, Franklin? 01:51:23 jcowan: there should be a name for that zone ... "Whiffle-land" or something 01:51:32 cky: Murphy :) 01:51:33 *jcowan* chucles. 01:51:45 cky: https://www.folkschool.org/ 01:52:01 Actually there are plenty of people in the Lilac Zone with full wh/w merger. 01:53:01 offby1: Holy cow! That's even more SW than Franklin. Nice. 01:53:38 It's almost gone from the language, like the vain/vein merger and (almost entirely) the pain/pane, toe/tow, and due/dew mergers 01:54:05 jcowan: the code seems fine to me 01:54:27 jcowan: what?! People pronounced those differently?! 01:54:34 offby1: I do. 01:54:37 huh 01:54:40 Well, no. 01:54:41 In some parts of England and Wales, yes. 01:54:43 I'm mistaken. 01:54:49 hoever, I am noticing a huge difference between (inexact->exact (rationalize x y)) and (rationalize (inexact->exact x) (inexact->exact y)) 01:54:56 I pronounce due and dew the same, but due and do differently. 01:55:06 Yeah, that change is strictly North American. 01:55:19 hence the feasibility of surveys like http://www.gotoquiz.com/what_american_accent_do_you_have 01:55:29 jcowan: What, the due/do merger? Isn't that the same as yod-dropping? 01:55:34 due you now 01:55:43 *offby1* 's gob drops 01:55:52 And not everywhere there. My wife says Tyues-day (not Toosday or Chooseday), whereas I say Toozdee. 01:55:58 cky: Yes 01:56:09 *offby1* never heard Chooseday 01:56:10 *cky* does not yod-drop. 01:56:28 jcowan: admit it -- did you used to want to be Henry Higgins? I know _I_ did 01:56:42 For example: 01:56:49 Sure. But that's hopeless in the U.S. -- the accent regions are *huge*. 01:56:51 rudybot: (rationalize (inexact->exact 3.1415) (inexact->exact 0.01)) 01:56:51 adu: ; Value: 22/7 01:56:53 rudybot: (inexact->exact (rationalize 3.1415 0.01)) 01:56:53 adu: ; Value: 7077085128725065/2251799813685248 01:56:54 (hyuge, not yuge) 01:56:57 offby1: Another example of yod-dropping vs not: moot vs mute. 01:57:12 offby1: In yod-dropped pronunciations, they'd sound the same. 01:57:32 oh, _that_ yod. 01:57:38 -!- wingo [~wingo@70-36-236-249.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:57:51 can't imagine anyone pronouncing those two the same, but perhaps I'm not listening closely enough 01:58:10 Nobody does. 01:58:15 "Moot" is not yod-dropping. 01:58:31 No? I must be taking things a little too far, then. 01:58:32 Yod-dropping is the loss of "y" after coronals (t, d, s, z) 01:58:40 Ah, got it. 01:58:41 "Moot" never had a yod to drop. 01:58:55 Everyone drops after l, r, though: "rule", "lute" 01:59:06 *ijp* hates these conversations 01:59:09 well, not quite *everyone* after l, but dam near. 01:59:13 so "rule" used to be more like "ryool"? 01:59:13 I can never tell if I'm speaking right after them 01:59:18 offby1: Yes 01:59:21 ijp: you're not. 01:59:22 so there. 01:59:27 jcowan: I say lute and rude (but not rule) with yod. 01:59:27 Nobody is. 01:59:42 Yeah, I think I'm wrong about l, that's coronal too. 01:59:45 But ryude? Wow. 01:59:53 I can see why they dropped 'em ; it's an effort to pronounce a y in there 01:59:55 What part of NZ are you from? 01:59:58 Auckland. 02:00:08 if not right, then at least region-appropriate :) 02:00:21 I assume that "coronal" means "tip of tongue touching roof of mouth just behind front teeth" 02:01:05 All but the last four words, technically 02:01:23 ah 02:01:36 jcowan: I also pronounce ruse with a yod, just as another data point. 02:01:39 I'm surprised it's that broad a definition; I figured linguists got into the nitty-gritty 02:01:54 and why are we saying "yod" instead of "y"? 02:02:07 Oh, they can. But general terms are useful iff they let you make generalizations, which they sometimes do. 02:02:14 generally speaking. 02:02:34 I probably defined "corono-dental" or something. 02:02:37 Because phonology was invented by Germans, who use the letter J for the y-sound and call it Jod. 02:02:56 "Alveolar" means "just behind front teeth". 02:03:03 ah! 02:03:04 ah! 02:03:19 Jawohl. 02:03:23 (they call the letter Jod, that is, as we call it Jay) 02:03:36 rudybot: t8 en de And they call the wind "Maria". 02:03:36 *offby1: Und sie nennen den Wind "Maria". 02:04:14 pronounced Ma-ree-a, of course. 02:04:31 Natürlich 02:05:03 rudybot: t8 en fr And they call the wind "Maria" 02:05:03 jcowan: Et ils appellent le vent "Maria" 02:05:16 Oopsie, should have been Marie 02:05:18 Es ist die gleiche, egal wie Sie es in Scheiben schneiden. 02:05:21 Can't have everything. 02:05:36 rudybot: tr de en Es ist die gleiche, egal wie Sie es in Scheiben schneiden. 02:05:36 jcowan: egal? 02:05:38 Du kannst nicht alles haben - wo würden Sie sagen? 02:05:50 *ijp* slaps rudybot 02:05:51 "t8", not "tr" 02:05:59 Ah. 02:06:08 t8 de en Es ist die gleiche, egal wie Sie es in Scheiben schneiden. 02:06:23 *jcowan* watches rudybot wear the edges off the random numbers. 02:06:26 rudybot: tr en es it should work now 02:06:27 *offby1: # Robert Hieb, R. Kent Dybvig and Carl Bruggeman. "Syntactic Abstraction in Scheme". Computer Science Department, Indiana University. TR-355. June 1992. Available online: ps. 02:06:30 or not. 02:06:58 rudybot: Pffft. 02:06:58 jcowan: Pffft. 02:07:07 he gives as good as he gets 02:07:19 Ich kann gut austeilen, _und_ es nehmen. 02:07:29 rudybot: t8 en-nz en-us g'day 02:07:29 cky: Invalid Value 02:07:35 Ich hoffe, dass _someone_ hier spricht Deutsch. 02:07:41 hmm 02:07:57 rudybot: you need more a disciplined environment, offby1 is clearly too lenient 02:07:57 ijp: That's a very lenient eval. Some don't accept things like procedures in the form to eval. 02:08:19 it's amazing ... or perhaps pathetic ... how entertaining this little parlor trick is 02:08:47 offby1: wut? 02:09:35 adu: rudybot's semi-coherent responses 02:09:40 rudybot: are you coherent? 02:09:41 *offby1: ivan-kanis: if each patch is coherent, it'd probably make sense, but group them in one email to emacs-devel so you can outline why it should be changed. 02:09:54 rudybot: this statement is false 02:09:54 adu: i don't think maclisp used 0 for nil, or false 02:10:26 I was hoping to catch rudybot in an infinite loop 02:10:39 rudybot: gosper 02:10:39 qu1j0t3: "In .. "HAKMEM" .. Bill Gosper noted that .. a machine's internal representation .. could be determined by summing the successive powers of two. .. he noted that the result of doing this algebraically indicated that "algebra is run on a machine (the universe) which is twos-complement." 02:10:44 Does anyone know if the Portable SRFIs project on Launchpad is the current standard on such things? 02:10:49 rudybot is immune to logic and therefore logical paradoxes 02:10:59 arcfide: how do you mean? 02:11:00 I used their base when doing my Chez port, but now I do not know if they are current. 02:11:12 Did the project move, die, or something? 02:11:14 derick hasn't updated it in a good while 02:11:17 rudybot: call/cc 02:11:17 adu: ; Value: # 02:11:18 There have been few updates lately. 02:11:21 I don't know if anyone has taken it over 02:11:30 rudybot: what is call/ec 02:11:30 adu: i disagree -- you can implement try/catch with call/ec 02:12:11 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-35-231.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 02:12:27 adu: it's a bit confusing, because sometimes he interprets what you type as scheme code to evaluate. 02:12:30 rudybot: 123 02:12:30 *offby1: ; Value: 123 02:12:53 Well, it anyone is interested, I have sent in a merge request to actually bring in Chez Scheme support officially into that project. 02:12:57 basically, if your entire utterance can be "read" as exactly one s-expression, he figures it's scheme 02:13:05 arcfide: chez do srfi 97? 02:13:15 A while back we also made some updates to SRFI 64 that we might want to push upstream as well. 02:13:37 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:55 ijp, I do not know, how do you mean? 02:14:22 e.g. (srfi :1 lists) 02:15:10 Oh, you mean, does it support that name? 02:15:16 yes 02:15:37 Well, if you give that name to a library, Chez can load it, certainly. 02:16:01 arcfide: did you write chez? 02:16:26 Chez has some built in SRFIs, but does not define built-in library names like those. However, that's what my port is for. 02:16:32 adu, Hah! No. 02:16:43 adu, Although I have worked with those who do. 02:17:12 very cool 02:17:23 (srfi :97 :i:love:colons) 02:17:44 why on earth would you include semicolons? 02:17:58 Semicolons? 02:18:05 er 02:18:06 colons 02:18:10 adu: because the r6rs, in its infinite wisdom, disallowed numbers in the import lists 02:18:35 Lol. 02:18:37 cky: do you yod-drop in suit, Zeus, and/or enthusiasm? 02:18:50 No. 02:19:00 still, better than maintaining a separate list for each implementation in a cond-expand 02:19:09 ijp: correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the SRFI's precede R6RS? 02:19:17 adu: Most, but not all. 02:19:23 adu: Some SRFIs are expressly for R6RS. 02:19:28 adu: yes, but portable libraries are not 02:20:03 it'll all be explained in the rationale, no doubt 02:20:05 R7RS allows them, but probably there will have to be an upper limit. 02:21:15 here's what I don't get, most rnrs's have like 30 authors listed, showing extreme coordination, but R6RS only lists 9 02:21:25 (srfi 1+0i) 02:21:47 Exact integers only. And probably going to be an upper limit of 32767 or something. 02:21:49 (srfi 1@0) 02:21:51 (srfi (sqrt 2)) 02:22:00 adu: (sqrt 2) is not a number literal. 02:22:03 Indeed, non-negative exact integers. 02:22:16 neither is (rnrs base (6)) 02:22:24 jcowan: In Racket, at least, both 1+0i and 1@0 are exact integers. 02:22:29 That's a version number, not part of the name. 02:22:32 rudybot: 1@0 02:22:32 *offby1: ; Value: 1 02:22:35 wtf 02:22:36 Oof, right. 02:22:46 so R6RS allows numbers, but only if you add superfluous parentheses 02:22:48 rudybot: what is this secret strudel? 02:22:49 *offby1: I _do_ know what _strudel_ is, though. 02:22:53 so tell me 02:23:01 offby1: 1@0 == (make-polar 1 0) 02:23:01 adu: version is different 02:23:03 adu: No, it allows version numbers, which take the form of lists. 02:23:17 which contain numbers 02:23:22 1+0i == (make-rectangular 1 0) 02:23:38 -!- turbofail [~user@c-24-5-89-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:05 rudybot: (cos 1@1.57) 02:24:05 *offby1: ; Value: 1.5430797729349106-0.000935843612463293i 02:24:09 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:11 cky: and of course (srfi #b101001) 02:24:17 ijp: :-D 02:24:26 I'm hopeing that R7RS steers scheme in a more concentual direction 02:24:40 adu: define:concentual 02:25:09 cky: as I said earlier, R6RS listed 9 authors/editors 02:25:15 adu: if by concentual, you mean non-portable, then yes 02:25:19 cky: 9 is not concentual, but 30 is 02:25:33 rudybot: what say you to #e1e400 02:25:34 jcowan: eval #e1.1e310 02:25:41 Wow, that worked 02:25:47 jcowan is a scheme bot? 02:25:55 Hardly 02:25:56 jcowan: eval (factorial 10) 02:26:00 I'm nowhere near that accurate 02:26:28 rudybot: (require srfi/1) 02:26:28 cky: your sandbox is ready 02:26:28 cky: Done. 02:26:37 ijp: 3627900 02:26:39 rudybot: (define (factorial n) (apply * (iota n 1))) 02:26:39 cky: Done. 02:26:43 rudybot: (factorial 10) 02:26:43 cky: ; Value: 3628800 02:26:45 :-D 02:26:48 I lied. 02:27:03 rudybot: #e1e400 02:27:03 jcowan: your sandbox is ready 02:27:03 jcowan: ; Value: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 02:27:13 Lots of Schemes fail that test 02:27:14 *offby1* considers charging per kilo-core tick 02:27:14 jcowan: yes, and your performance is horrible :P 02:27:19 cky: concentual, "when more than 30 people can agree on something" 02:27:22 So like. I only used that implementation of factorial because Scheme doesn't have a built-in Gamma function. 02:27:28 adu: oh, then that will never happen 02:27:31 adu: Hahahahaha. 02:28:02 It's like Steele's 3-part smoke test for a Common Lisp 02:28:08 rudybot: (for/fold ([result 1]) ([x (in-range 11 1)]) (* result x)) 02:28:08 *offby1: ; Value: 1 02:28:14 rudybot: (for/fold ([result 1]) ([x (in-range 1 11)]) (* result x)) 02:28:15 *offby1: ; Value: 3628800 02:28:33 1) Type in T, see if it says T. 02:28:40 cky: that conses less, I assume 02:28:53 2) Type in factorial, ask for (/ (factorial 100) (factorial 99)), see if it says 100. 02:29:20 *offby1* eagerly awaits #3 02:29:52 3) Type in (expt 8 1/3). If it answers with a complex number, it passes. Extra credit if it is the correct complex number. 02:30:16 I expect "2" 02:30:18 rudybot: (expt 8 1/3) 02:30:18 *offby1: ; Value: 2.0 02:30:26 I guess that's complex, but ... 02:30:43 rudybot: (expt -8 1/3) 02:30:43 *offby1: ; Value: 1.0000000000000002+1.7320508075688772i 02:31:33 jcowan: I assume he saw a lot of CLs that failed one or another of those tests. 02:31:41 Oh yes. 02:31:56 yes, sorry, -8 of course 02:32:13 rudybot: (expt (expt -8 1/3) 3) 02:32:13 ijp: your sandbox is ready 02:32:14 ijp: ; Value: -8.0+3.1086244689504383e-15i 02:32:25 meh, whaddaya gonna do 02:32:33 what's a +3.1086244689504383e-15i between friends 02:32:38 *nod 02:32:56 in my country we no longer even have a 1e-15i coin. 02:33:04 phased it out two years back. 02:33:22 that the one featuring nixon? 02:33:39 :) 02:34:11 confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:35:34 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:40:53 -!- Whitesqu_ [~notwhites@94.242.169.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:43 jcowan: what is Steele's 3-part smoke test? 02:43:03 adu: see 1), 2), 3) above, with typo 8 for -8 02:43:03 jcowan: o that's the 1 2 3 02:43:08 :P 02:43:30 1) match; 2) lighter; 3) blowtorch 02:44:40 When your beard 02:44:41 Begins 02:44:44 To scratch 02:44:47 Don't reach for lighter 02:44:49 Torch 02:44:51 Or match. 02:44:54 Behind you do not 02:44:56 Burn your itches 02:44:59 But use the shave 02:45:02 The name of which is 02:45:04 Burma-Shave 02:45:10 lol 02:46:15 s/Behind/Mind/, I'm sure 02:46:30 that's a particularly good one. 02:46:45 OMG the TOC for http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Factorial is 5 pages 02:47:09 popular one 02:47:10 I know, that's _way_ too few 02:47:24 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:47:26 ijp: TOC=table of contents 02:47:35 I stand by my remark 02:49:46 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 02:50:11 offby1: no, definitely not, I remember it vividly 02:50:21 as in "burn your bridges behind you" 02:52:03 -!- confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:52:42 confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:01:56 Lemonator [~kniu@pool-74-98-40-236.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:07 -!- homie```` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:04:46 ddp [~ddp@58.137.104.50] has joined #scheme 03:05:47 -!- ddp [~ddp@58.137.104.50] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:10 ddp [~ddp@58.137.104.50] has joined #scheme 03:06:43 aaahh 03:07:07 and yet: it doesn't scan as well, and needs to be explained. 03:07:08 hmph 03:10:03 homie```` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-189.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:11:07 -!- homie```` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-189.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:15:26 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-232-69.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 03:18:37 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:19:07 I didn't need it explained to me at age nine or whatever. So there. 03:19:10 We conclude that it is certainly fine to use a 160-bit hash function like SHA1 or RIPEMD-160 with compare-by-hash. The chances of an accidental collision is about 2^-160. This is unimaginably small. You are roughly 2^90 times more likely to win a U.S. state lottery and be struck by lightning simultaneously than you are to encounter this type of error in your file system. 03:20:36 lol 03:21:16 sounds like how death by bee sting is more likely than death by terrorist? 03:26:07 wow, the odd of dying from being left-handed are 1 in 4 million 03:26:37 Chance of an accidental collision is actually about 2^-80, because of birthday attack. 03:26:56 birthday attack? 03:27:14 Oh, for the particular use case jcowan is talking about, I don't think the birthday attack applies. 03:28:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 03:28:39 I think it does, but it's still vanishingly small. 03:28:40 adu: The birthday attack is explained this way: if you have 23 random people in a room, there is >0.5 probability that two of them will have the same birthday. 03:28:44 jcowan: Right. 03:29:46 cky: hmm, the wiki article says 70% 03:30:02 70% is certainly >50%, so sure. 03:31:00 so I see how that is related to hash functions 03:31:09 but how do you use it to attack? 03:31:23 adu: Well, 70% is actually for 30 random people. 03:31:37 adu: 23 random people is about 52%, IIRC. 03:31:44 oh ok 03:33:05 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:35:10 ooo 03:35:15 ic 03:35:59 so instead of a fixed official document you can choose an official document and a fraudulent document 03:36:42 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-35-231.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:38:07 the only case I can think of that would allot choosing an official document would be man-in-the-middle attacks 03:38:17 s/allot/allow/ 03:39:51 I like to think of everything as a document 03:40:14 if bits are documents, then that would make bytes CMSs 03:40:42 adu: how do you die from being left handed? 03:41:07 I have no idea, just read it in an article 03:41:25 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/scientists-calculate-odd-ways-to-die-282884 03:41:26 http://tinyurl.com/d4rrqfa 03:41:52 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-35-231.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:43:38 it would be nice if they provided cites 03:46:07 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-35-231.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:46:45 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-139.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:47:20 Nobody knows how, but studies of baseball players (whose handedness has been a matter of record for more than a century) shows that it's so: the life expectancy is shorter. 03:47:44 Certain problems like Crohn's disease (a kind of colitis) are strongly associated with left-handedness, too. 03:54:38 dnolen_ [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:54:43 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:44 -!- dnolen_ [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:42 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:06:50 hmm bigloo doesn't build 04:08:15 Perhaps shorter life expectancy could be explained by the contrarian world view they have. 04:09:02 the bigloo build logs say that "darwin_stop_world.c" isn't supported on darwin odd 04:09:32 You have to love that kind of messages. 04:09:46 pjb: heh 04:10:07 jcowan: i know a crohn's expert... who had it 04:10:32 Always better that way, with the exception of terminal cancer experts. 04:12:27 jcowan: heh 04:12:35 jcowan: yeah she treated herself back to health. impressive girl. 04:12:51 My wife had Crohn's, which mysteriously went away without a trace. 04:13:33 Her doctor said that on seeing my wife's endoscopy she (the doctor) would not have believed the original diagnosis, except that she _made_ the original diagnosis. 04:13:54 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 04:15:49 -!- finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:22:00 finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has joined #scheme 04:23:16 i'm having trouble with SDL/OpenGL bindings, any maintainer/knowledgeable person around? 04:24:14 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 04:25:00 cswords_ [~cswords@c-98-223-237-144.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:28:10 -!- cswords [~cswords@c-98-223-237-144.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:32:43 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:33:06 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #scheme 04:33:10 jcowan: :D 04:33:21 jcowan: diet has a lot to do with it, i understand 04:34:17 Yes, except doctors were constantly giving her contradictory diet advice. So it has something to do with it, but nobody knows what! 04:34:44 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.150.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:39 jcowan: http://meghantelpner.com <--- she might know. the woman i am referring to, and a nutritionist. 04:39:19 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 04:41:01 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:06 SpacePoet [~StarPoet@ppp-124-122-129-57.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 04:53:17 how do i define a proc with any number of params? 04:53:38 (define (stuff . x))? 04:54:01 SpacePoet: Yes. 04:54:07 SpacePoet: x will be a list. 04:54:58 or more generally (define stuff (lambda x ...)) 04:57:09 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:23 how is that more general? 04:58:21 because the (lambda x ...) is ultimately how a function is made 04:58:37 (define (stuff . x) ...) is syntactic sugar 05:00:08 -!- ddp [~ddp@58.137.104.50] has quit [Quit: ddp] 05:06:27 ddp [~ddp@58.137.104.50] has joined #scheme 05:08:13 -!- ddp [~ddp@58.137.104.50] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:05 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:26:40 -!- forcer [~forcer@hmbg-4d06fb9e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:30:57 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 05:35:51 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has left #scheme 05:37:25 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:40:46 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-91.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:48:21 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c-98-223-204-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:49:07 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53:22 -!- jhemann_ [~Jason@108.67.91.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:53:33 wingo [~wingo@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 05:55:34 mmc [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 05:55:55 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:59:03 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #scheme 06:01:47 but it is more general 06:01:51 it is equally general 06:02:06 syntactic sugar implies equigenerality 06:02:43 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-219-157.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 06:05:15 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 06:12:49 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:18:19 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: yes leaving] 06:19:25 forcer [~forcer@hmbg-5f7613f4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 06:24:53 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 06:27:04 -!- wingo [~wingo@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:40:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-91.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:46:04 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-146.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 06:49:22 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53:38 kvda [~kvda@124-169-131-183.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 06:56:48 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:57:00 iffsid [~user@c-98-222-193-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:58:10 -!- iffsid [~user@c-98-222-193-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:03 where can I get the source for the SRFI documents? or is only the HTML available? 07:02:00 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:05:44 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:07:03 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-146.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 07:07:28 -!- 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-!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:51:51 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:53:38 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 11:54:08 -!- fizzie [fis@unaffiliated/fizzie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:54:17 chturne [~chturne@host86-136-158-113.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 11:58:32 ThePawnBreak121 [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 12:02:31 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:07:55 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:10:15 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-109.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:12:25 -!- jhemann_ [~Jason@adsl-108-67-91-121.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:12:25 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:19:16 amoe: No idea why, but there is pair-fold-right, with which 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[~Claudio@host95-234-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 17:53:43 turbofail [~user@c-24-5-89-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:02:35 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:05:19 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:24 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:07:25 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 18:07:35 Kirill [~user@206-248-153-229.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 18:07:56 hi! what's the easiest way to "receive" some values but ignore others? e.g. (receive (_ _ x) (values 1 2 3) x) doesn't work 18:08:51 who defines receive? 18:09:13 Kirill: _ isn't treated specially in scheme 18:09:15 tomodo: SRFI 8. 18:09:24 it is an identifier like any other 18:09:24 _ is only special in macro templates 18:09:35 which suggests a solution 18:09:43 qu1j0t3: Yes. Like syntax-case. :-P 18:09:46 cky: :) 18:11:55 jhemann_ [~Jason@extfw.bloomington.in.gov] has joined #scheme 18:12:14 rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (funky-receive args expr body ...) (syntax-case (call-with-values (lambda () expr) list) () (args (begin body ...)))) 18:12:14 cky: your sandbox is ready 18:12:14 cky: Done. 18:12:23 rudybot: (funky-receive (_ _ x) (values 1 2 3) x) 18:12:24 cky: error: #:1:38: x: pattern variable cannot be used outside of a template in: x 18:12:32 Oh, right. 18:12:55 *qu1j0t3* puts a coffee pill in cky's mailbox 18:13:26 palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has joined #scheme 18:14:26 -!- jhemann [~Jason@extfw.bloomington.in.gov] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:14:36 rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (funky-receive args expr body ...) (syntax-case (call-with-values (lambda () expr) list) () (args #'(begin body ...)))) 18:14:36 cky: Done. 18:14:39 rudybot: (funky-receive (_ _ x) (values 1 2 3) x) 18:14:39 cky: ; Value: # 18:15:24 Hmmmm. 18:15:53 (define-syntax funky-receive (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx (_) ((receive args expr body bodies ...) #`(call-with-values (lambda () expr) (lambda #,(map (lambda (x) (if (free-identifier=? x #'_) (gensym) x)) #'(args ...)) body bodies ...)))))) ;; caution: written straight into IRC, may not work 18:16:53 *cky* 's brain burst a little. 18:16:58 s/#'(args ...)/#'args/ 18:17:23 I think I'm going to PM rudybot to fine-tune my solution. 18:18:44 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:10 -!- palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:22 hmm, the macro _almost_ works 18:21:47 Hahahaha. 18:21:54 stupid gensym 18:21:57 I'm rewriting mine to use match instead. Yes, it's less portable, but. 18:23:43 https://gist.github.com/2422816 <- with obvious bugs fixed 18:24:02 I got it. 18:24:04 palach [~palach@93.175.8.83] has joined #scheme 18:24:15 rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (funky-receive vars expr body ...) (match (call-with-values (lambda () expr) vector) ((vector . vars) body ...))) 18:24:15 cky: Done. 18:24:31 rudybot: (funky-receive (_ _ x) (values 1 2 3) x) 18:24:32 cky: ; Value: 3 18:24:38 Kirill: ^^--- :-D 18:25:16 You can also replace vector with list: 18:25:25 rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (funky-receive vars expr body ...) (match (call-with-values (lambda () expr) list) ((list . vars) body ...))) 18:25:26 cky: Done. 18:25:29 rudybot: (funky-receive (_ _ x) (values 1 2 3) x) 18:25:29 cky: ; Value: 3 18:26:05 *cky* looks at ijp's solution. 18:26:45 I merely replace all instances of _ in the lambda list with a generated temporary 18:26:58 ijp: Oof, that's a little lower-level than I wanted to go. :-) 18:29:05 Kucuq [~michael@dslb-178-001-190-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 18:29:21 =) 18:30:07 ijp: In similar spirit, for my Guile SRFI 41 port, my stream-match macro uses Guile's underlying (ice-9 match) package. If I were making a Racket port, I'd adjust the macro to use Racket's match instead. But in no case would I try to reimplement match by hand. 18:30:18 Hi, I'm a emacs newbie. I tryed to install Quack. (emacs-goodies-el) 18:30:24 can syntax-rules introduce definitions? i.e. for a macro to expand to a "(define ...)" 18:30:33 yes 18:30:33 Kirill: Sure. 18:30:52 so basically.. (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_) (define x 5)))) 18:30:56 No. 18:30:59 =) 18:31:14 so "Sure." or "No."? =) 18:31:30 Kirill: you can expand into definitions, but that will not do what you expect 18:31:35 well it'll work but you won't be able to reference that `x' from code that wasn't generated by the foo macro. 18:31:46 it'll "work" 18:31:47 right 18:31:57 Kirill: You can do this: (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_ id) (define id 5)))) 18:32:01 In emacs M-: (require 'quack) the result is "quack" No i expet some Menu to add. That does not happen. 18:32:03 Then use (foo x). 18:32:04 Kirill: if the name isn't introduced into a syntax-rules macro, it will be renamed 18:32:17 hehe, for some reason Gauche allows this anyway 18:32:25 with the effect of injecting the binding into the environment 18:32:31 That's broken. 18:32:32 then guache is broken 18:32:35 Jinx! 18:32:36 right 18:32:48 how can I introduce a binding that wasn't given to the macro? syntax-case? 18:32:52 Kirill: Right. 18:33:04 I'll take a look 18:33:21 -!- Kucuq [~michael@dslb-178-001-190-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:26 also... let's say I have a bunch of global definitions, and then I (eval) some code; how do I make said definitions available to the code that's given to eval? 18:33:33 rudybot: (define-syntax (foo stx) (syntax-case stx () ((foo) #`(define #,(datum->syntax #'foo 'x) 5)))) 18:33:33 cky: Done. 18:33:34 ... without eval'ing the definitions first, of course =) 18:33:37 rudybot: (foo) 18:33:37 cky: Done. 18:33:39 rudybot: x 18:33:39 cky: ; Value: 5 18:33:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:33:55 That's one way to do it. 18:33:56 Another way: 18:34:06 rudybot: (define-syntax (foo stx) (syntax-case stx () ((_) #`(define #,(datum->syntax stx 'x) 5)))) 18:34:06 cky: Done. 18:34:08 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:11 rudybot: (foo) 18:34:11 cky: Done. 18:34:13 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 18:34:13 rudybot: x 18:34:13 cky: ; Value: 5 18:34:16 rudybot: remember: questions one two three and four are "why are you using eval?" 18:34:17 ijp: It's nice when two or three of those people get together and top-post three or four indentations deep. 18:34:39 Kirill: What ijp said. 18:34:41 questions five through twenty-four are "are you sure?" 18:34:49 the idea is that I have a very simple "driver" I'm running 18:34:58 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 18:34:58 and at runtime I tell the driver to execute various scheme snippets 18:35:11 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:22 is there an alternative to using "eval" in my case? 18:36:00 unfortunately I don't have the option of using dynamic libraries or anything similar. all I get is the source of the snippet, and I have to execute it somehow at runtime 18:36:05 (well, obviously at runtime =P) 18:36:23 well if you're running a REPL, there's really no substitute for some sort of `eval' 18:36:35 right 18:36:48 now that I've answered questions 1 through 25 18:36:58 actually, you only answered 1. 18:37:09 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 18:37:19 I mean, 1 through 4 18:37:19 the remaining boilerplate can be waived for a small fee, of course :) 18:37:25 hehe =) 18:37:32 so how do I make bindings visible to eval? just "eval" the code that introduces said bindings? 18:37:41 short answer is "it depends" 18:37:42 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-191-6.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:37:57 is there some more "civilized" way to make eval aware of bindings? because I do have some code that can be precompiled (i.e part of the driver), etc. 18:38:12 so standard eval is supposed to take some sort of `environment' parameter 18:38:19 but where such environments come from varies from scheme to scheme 18:38:21 yeah, but most implementations ignore it 18:38:26 e.g. gambit, which is what I'm using 18:38:40 in r6rs eval, creating environments is pretty easy 18:38:41 Ignoring the environment is not conformant. 18:38:50 well, then gambit is nonconformant 18:38:59 You are, for example, supposed to be able to pass in a null environment and have no built-in bindings. 18:39:00 unfortunately it appears to be my only option vis a vis running scheme code 18:39:07 Kirill: gambits docs should provide you with the answer, if someone else here doesn't know 18:39:26 Kirill: I dispute your "most implementations ignore it". 18:39:27 I've combed the docs.. it appears that eval always executes with the same environment, called the "interaction environment" in the docs 18:39:47 my use of the "most" qualifier is disingenuous; I really meant "whatever I'm using now" 18:39:59 cky: you can ask jcowan later 18:40:34 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 18:40:40 I'd ask on #gambit, but it's way too quiet in there 18:40:55 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:03 according to http://dynamo.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/wiki/index.php?title=Documentation:Procedure_eval evaled code should be able to access your definitions 18:41:10 http://tinyurl.com/7bzaqnr 18:43:01 hmm, I guess I had the impression that it doesn't see bindings because I was trying to use a macro defined in the global env, but gambit's eval didn't like it 18:44:09 is there some "standard" way to make eval aware of macros? 18:44:36 eval should aware of all macros in the environmen it is passed 18:45:06 for some reason that's not the case in gambit. as I mentioned yesterday, amusingly the same code (defining syntax in the global env, then using it in eval) works in the interpreter, fails in compiled executables 18:45:13 If you are having issues, the gambit mailing list is probably more appropriate than listening to a bunch of people who dont use gambit :) 18:45:32 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 18:45:33 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46:34 Kirill: you could always look at how the gambit REPL is implemented 18:46:52 this is most likely not a bug, but something I'm doing wrong 18:47:02 so I'm still trying to read up on things to avoid wasting more peoples' time 18:47:09 people's* 18:54:10 -!- Kirill 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has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 20:48:52 choas [~lars@p4FDC4E74.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:48:54 mmc [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 20:49:51 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:35 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 20:57:25 -!- ThePawnBreak121 [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:58:49 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:59:15 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:24 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:07:24 machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:07:52 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:08:01 -!- saccadewrk_ [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-letktgrckfsqkjts] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:23 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:08:31 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:08:54 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zjpypkrydkzxfflz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:09:51 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 21:09:51 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iupwokiehuiwicrk] has joined #scheme 21:13:19 -!- jhemann__ [~Jason@extfw.bloomington.in.gov] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:13:28 -!- snizzo [~Claudio@host95-234-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:24 saccadewrk [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-shycocpvkvsmoiek] has joined #scheme 21:20:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-30.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:37 jhemann [Jason@140-182-224-113.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 21:28:52 I've taken to using call-with-values and (apply values ) lately as a destructuring mechanism for lists; I just realized, however, that this is an impoverished case of pattern matching. 21:29:03 For some reason, I always forget about Andrew Wright's work. 21:38:37 does anybody use andrew wright's actual matcher, or do they use the hygienic ones that share its syntax? 21:40:38 -!- jhemann [Jason@140-182-224-113.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:41:24 turbofail: Ah; the latter, in my case, thanks to foof. 21:41:25 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #scheme 21:45:43 ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 21:47:42 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:49:14 This is somewhat exciting  http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/shteq/os_x_lion_using_scheme_to_define_sandbox/ 21:49:14 http://tinyurl.com/c79edw3 21:49:19 Thanks rudybot 21:50:37 less so if you are on the "apple is evil" side of the fence :P 21:51:17 But who isn't evil these days? 21:51:21 I certainly am 21:51:23 (YARG!) 21:51:48 I'm trying to cut down; doctor says it is drastically shortening my lifespan 21:52:52 :-/ 21:53:36 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:53:56 rudybot: apparently, cutting evilness down from 7 days a week to 2 days a week, decreases secret-agent-related deaths by over 80% 21:53:56 ijp: http://github.com/avar/dotemacs/commit/d1ee38f224db4379795998571987792041580797 :) 21:54:15 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:52 jhemann [Jason@2001:18e8:2:28a2:f955:680b:6268:5fb2] has joined #scheme 21:54:57 ijp: oh god don't encourage it 21:55:04 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 21:55:10 -!- wingo [~wingo@70-35-56-82.static.wiline.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:13 the weekend is the safest time for evil, since they are busy with the bastards they sired 21:55:17 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:52 -!- choas [~lars@p4FDC4E74.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:57:59 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:00:38 turbofail: i believe the match code in chez is descended from Wright's code 22:00:41 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 22:00:58 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01:07 the code in Racket used to be so descended 22:01:14 until i rewrote it a few years ago 22:01:20 hm 22:02:01 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:05:44 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 22:06:00 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:02 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:09:20 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-146.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 22:10:41 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 22:10:41 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:31 confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 22:12:07 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 22:15:44 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 22:15:44 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:26 turbofail: Guile 1.8 had Wright's code, and 2.0 has foof's 22:18:16 -!- ijp [~user@host109-154-210-175.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has left #scheme 22:18:24 ijp 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[Jason@140-182-224-113.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 22:37:59 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-131-183.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: x___x] 22:38:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.251.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:39:12 -!- jhemann [Jason@2001:18e8:2:28a2:f955:680b:6268:5fb2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:40:49 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:47:54 -!- jhemann_ [Jason@140-182-224-113.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:52:08 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 22:53:27 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:56:40 hoi 22:59:03 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD601E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:57 jcowan: btw, racket also support #true/#false 23:00:00 rudybot: #true 23:00:01 samth: your lang/htdp-beginner sandbox is ready 23:00:01 samth: ; Value: #t 23:00:07 Ah, thanks. 23:00:09 rudybot: init racket 23:00:09 samth: your sandbox is ready 23:00:25 also, the primary motivation there was quote 23:00:35 *jcowan* boots Linux 23:00:38 How so? 23:00:57 b/c currently, we have students use true/false, which are bindings 23:01:09 so you get: 23:01:11 rudybot: true 23:01:11 samth: ; Value: #t 23:01:28 but then if you use ', all hell breaks loose 23:01:33 rudybot: '(true) 23:01:34 samth: ; Value: (true) 23:01:42 which isn't what you wanted at all 23:01:57 whereas 23:02:01 rudybot: '(#true) 23:02:01 samth: ; Value: (#t) 23:02:08 (of course) 23:02:36 *jcowan* wishes racket would start up a tad faster, especially as it happens to stand first in his "runallschemes" script 23:03:00 I see, thanks. 23:04:00 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:41 jhemann [~Jason@108.67.91.121] has joined #scheme 23:05:53 replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 23:07:36 jcowan: how fast does it start? 23:07:43 for me, it's about .2 sec 23:07:46 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:07:52 -!- replore__ [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:59 About 7 seconds from "Welcome to Racket v5.1.3" to ">" 23:13:20 ! 23:13:41 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:14:00 Granted, that might be because I'm running it in CoLinux, but nothing else seems to be *that* slow. 23:14:06 This is "racket" from the command line. 23:14:06 kvda [~kvda@202.58.240.18] has joined #scheme 23:14:14 what is colinux? 23:14:31 A Linux kernel running as a Windows device driver in kernel mode. 23:14:44 tuubow [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:14:49 Much less demanding than a VM, though a bug in Linux can take down Windows. 23:14:59 jcowan: there's almost certainly something going wrong there 23:15:03 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:16:02 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:16:02 *jcowan* runs Windows XP (work-provided box), Ubuntu Lucid (in CoLinux), and Plan 9 (on 9vx, a user-mode Plan 9 kernel (running on Linux)) simultaneously. 23:16:28 I also run Cygwin and Plan 9 from User Space. 23:21:53 you use plan 9? 23:21:57 *CampinSam* scratches his head. 23:23:28 *CampinSam* reads that string of stuff over again.. 23:23:31 'e's crazy, that one 23:24:03 jcowan: work should allow you to run plan9 native 23:24:18 -!- replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:28 CampinSam: I test Chibi Scheme on Plan 9 sometimes, and fool around with it. 23:24:32 soveran: What do you mean by "work"? 23:24:33 or ubuntu, and wipe out windows 23:24:38 (Hard to google for that.) 23:24:46 Can't wipe out Windows, work requires it. 23:24:52 And I hate rebooting. 23:24:55 you said it was a work-provided box, I assumed they require it has windows 23:24:56 right 23:25:37 Oh, you mean $EMPLOYER should let me run Plan 9 native. Too many things I can't do intra-corporately without IE. 23:25:51 jcowan: :-( 23:25:56 *jcowan* handles it. 23:26:20 i've been windows free since 2009 23:26:24 it's been great 23:26:29 jcowan: you kind of like it, don't you :-) 23:27:04 Windows? No. I'd gladly be Windows-free again, though not at the expense of working for ${EMPLOYER - 1} 23:27:10 one of the things that drove me to quit my first job out of college was being forced to use windows and IE 23:27:25 But it is neat to have a 3-deep OS stack. 23:27:40 jcowan: we can start a campaign to get you a windows-less job 23:27:55 the other thing was the mind-numbingly stupid work, which was probably the larger cause, but still 23:28:49 Yeah, my current work is not mind-numbingly stupid: I like it. 23:29:13 Listen, my children, and you shall hear how VM/CMS, IBM's VM-based operating system, came to the System/370. 23:29:53 -!- wingo [~wingo@75.16.26.133] has left #scheme 23:35:00 The developer had working copies of VM/360 (which ran on a 360 and projected 360 VMs) and CMS/360 (the single-tasking OS that ran on a 360 VM. 23:35:08 What he didn't have was working 370 hardware. 23:35:15 He didn't even have a working 360 to play with. 23:35:57 So he went to his local IBM computation center, which was running MVS, IBM's batch OS, on a 360, and convinced him to run VM/360 on the bare iron and MVS on top of that. 23:36:22 On this basis, he was able to run a CMS/360 system on top of the VM/360 to do his development in. 23:36:33 But of course, he still needed a 370 for test. 23:36:49 So he hacked VM/360 until he had a version that ran on a 360, but exported *370* VMs. 23:37:08 He ran the hacked VM/360 on top of the real VM/360 as his test 370. 23:37:30 On top of the hacked VM/360, he ran his VM/370, and on top of *that*, his CMS/370. 23:37:59 So: CMS/370 on top of VM/370 on top of hacked VM/360 on top of standard VM/360. 23:38:19 And when it all worked, he handed over the tapes, and they ran on real 370s in the field. 23:38:35 And thus ends my tale. 23:41:04 gol-lee granpa 23:41:15 *offby1* 's eyes widen like saucers 23:42:05 *ijp* suddenly feels 40 years older 23:42:05 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 23:49:03 jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:49:10 hi all 23:49:42 are there scheme libraries that support byte-level io? 23:50:01 jcowan: I thoroughly enjoyed your story 23:50:32 jfe: binary io is included in most useful scheme impementations 23:50:57 and it is required by the r6rs 23:51:03 jfe: which implementation are you using? 23:51:36 ijp: not sure using drracket so i'm guessing r6rs 23:51:40 gf3: Thanks. 23:52:03 jcowan: Currently sharing it around :) 23:52:17 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:52:20 rudybot: doc read-byte 23:52:22 asumu: your typed/racket sandbox is ready 23:52:22 asumu: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Byte_and_String_Input.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._read-byte)) 23:52:26 jfe: ^ 23:53:14 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 23:53:15 I think I left out one level somewhere 23:53:52 the part where you didn't have a computer, and this was all done on paper? :) 23:54:11 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 23:54:36 the mezzanine 23:54:54 between the VM/360 and hacked VM/360. 23:55:24 It had stalls selling popcorn and lemonade, and a nice view of the top of the flower planters on the roof of the standard VM/360 23:55:25 i have an ascii data format that is split into different variable-width fields; the fields correspond to a wide variety of types: char, char, short, short, int, uint, strings, etc., and arrays as well 23:56:27 the developers i work with wrote a program in C++ that parses this data format using some format strings, but it's god-awful mess. one of the guys said if he were to do it again, he'd do it in lisp 23:56:37 so it got me thinking :] 23:56:52 offby1: Ahh yes, the glory days 23:56:58 jfe: can you paste an example line or two? 23:57:27 offby1: i haven't actually written anything yet, just doing research or were you referring to the existing parsing programs? 23:57:38 no, I was referring to the data to be parsed 23:57:53 at worst you could call "read-byte" some bunch of times 23:58:09 at one point I had a macro for doing binary parsing a la erlang, but fsm knows what I did with it 23:58:58 .oO("fsm"?) 23:59:06 offby1: each "message" starts with control characters, and it looks like s509AF10589BC151044B69A... 23:59:13 ugh 23:59:15 offby1: have you not been touched by HIS noodly appendage? 23:59:23 oh, _that_ fsm 23:59:27 you might be able to use "match" if you're using rackt. 23:59:29 racket 23:59:41 it's more powerfuller than it looks at first