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Duh! 01:24:19 pjb: I don't mean a recursive procedure. a recursive procedure can be an iterative process. to quote sicp "In the computation of n!, the length of the chain of deferred multiplications, and hence the amount of information needed to keep track of it, grows linearly with n (is proportional to n), just like the number of steps. Such a process is called a linear recursive process." 01:24:23 oops didn't mean to flood 01:24:25 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@130.34.188.206] has quit [Quit: brb] 01:24:51 Now, for the space complexity, if the recursive call is a tail call, and tail call optimization is performed, then O(1) stack space is used. But the algorithm could still have another space complexity. 01:24:55 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 01:25:05 chromaticwt: np 01:25:19 ok, but I am correct that by sicp's definition, any linear recursive process is basically O(n). 01:25:33 chromaticwt: yes, they say linear = O(n) therefore linear => O(n). 01:25:39 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:43 by definition. 01:30:49 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@129.10.228.153] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:31:00 erm 01:32:36 that's kind of a weird passage 01:34:28 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-253.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:38:42 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 01:39:13 -!- shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:42:23 jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #scheme 01:43:14 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:44:31 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-173-75-156-203.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:50:38 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:50:59 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:51:43 kniu [~kniu@pool-173-75-156-203.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:22 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 01:59:14 -!- omegacfx [~omegacfx@unaffiliated/omegacfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:59:53 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:00:29 omegacfx [~omegacfx@99-56-46-56.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:00:56 -!- omegacfx is now known as Guest12030 02:01:20 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:01:43 -!- Guest12030 [~omegacfx@99-56-46-56.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:07 -!- confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:04:22 omegacfx_ [~omegacfx@unaffiliated/omegacfx] has joined #scheme 02:06:43 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:05 jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:42 hoi 02:09:50 i just got a job on irc 02:09:53 how cool is that 02:10:15 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 02:10:43 also I'm identified for omegacfx, but it says my nick is unavailable, and when I try to ghost it, it says omegacfx is not online 02:10:46 wtf 02:13:39 _wtf indeed 02:13:40 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:47 :( 02:20:22 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 02:20:26 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:22:58 githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:26:33 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:27:21 Heya, schemers. 02:27:28 hi 02:27:48 Hey ho. 02:30:33 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 02:31:48 snizzo [~quassel@host231-236-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 02:33:53 jcowan: I heard you say the other day that you didn't like working at google. How come? 02:34:18 I think he specifically said he didnt want to work at google just to use linux 02:34:20 It wasn't a good match for me, basically. 02:34:24 oh 02:34:46 I said that being able to run Linux at work wasn't sufficient incentive for me to work for Google. 02:34:56 I was there for 3 years and things between me and the company just went steadily downhill. 02:35:07 Hmm, that sounds unfortunate. 02:35:29 what did you work on at google? 02:36:25 Google Data. 02:37:10 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r190-135-5-206.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:37:20 The culture is simply not aimed at someone with my priorities, working style, etc. 02:38:28 Do you mind elaborating? It's okay if you don't want to share, though, I'm just evaluating potential job prospects. 02:39:15 I find it difficult to be impartial, as you might expect. 02:40:42 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 02:40:42 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-52-187-86.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:40:45 Well, I don't imagine the people from Google that I talk to are particularly impartial, either. 02:41:06 jcowan: wow, that sucks. 02:41:27 jcowan: i can see how that happens, though, from my own experience 02:41:32 and friends' 02:41:36 Part of the problem was that I was pretty sick for the first 6 months, so I couldn't jump in running. 02:43:03 Also, my first task involved adding an error-reporting facility to an existing *very* brown codebase (now basically abandoned), which involved a huge amount of research. Nobody had time to assist me in familiarizing myself with the codebase. 02:43:31 :| 02:43:51 Eventually, I wound up no longer writing code but doing internal evangelism for the product, which I was very good at. 02:44:20 I consistently got good reviews from the other teams I worked with, and mediocre ones from my own team. That should have been a signal to change teams, but I didn't understand it. 02:44:45 -!- chromaticwt [~user@71-222-151-95.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:45:11 Another problem is that when you're a misfit in your current situation, you may wind up with an unsatisfactory rating for the period, which means you can't change situations. Catch-22. 02:45:12 chromaticwt [~user@71-222-151-95.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:45:35 -!- cswords [~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:46:41 When we eventually reached the point of no return, I wound up in another non-coding job at another company. I still write code now and again, but it's no longer part of my job description, just a tool. I'm now an XML schema author and OWL ontologist. 02:46:56 It feels funny *not* to be a professional programmer for the first time since, like, 1976. 02:48:00 I'm doing a cold install of Chicken on a new (virtual) Linux system. What's the incantation to bootstrap Chicken, or do I still need a prebuilt compiler? 02:48:14 (got no answer yet at #chicken) 02:49:39 -!- snizzo [~quassel@host231-236-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.34.0] has joined #scheme 02:56:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.34.0] has quit [Changing host] 02:56:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 02:57:35 sharkbird [~sharkbird@67-220-6-139.usiwireless.com] has joined #scheme 02:58:55 -!- datkin [~datkin@cpe-74-73-237-252.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:25 datkin [~datkin@cpe-74-73-237-252.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:04:24 jcowan: this is on the wiki 03:04:32 jcowan: i needed to know it recently -- i can find the link. 03:04:49 jcowan: btw, your G**gle experience sounds like some M*crosoft anecdotes I've read as well. 03:05:00 jcowan: re ranking, mobility 03:05:41 jcowan: i guess it is characteristic of large organisations/ one cannot eradicate politics and politicians either 03:05:55 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:07:00 -!- ayberk [~ayberk@88.244.62.197] has quit [] 03:19:35 From Let Over Lambda: 03:19:37 "Furthermore, recent research has shown that hygienic macro systems like those specified by various Scheme revisions can still be vulnerable to many interesting capture problems[SYNTAX-RULES-INSANE][SYNTAX-RULES-UNHYGIENIC]." 03:19:47 -!- sharkbird [~sharkbird@67-220-6-139.usiwireless.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:57 Any details on this? 03:22:54 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 03:24:53 those [blocks] look like references, maybe check the back of the book ? but I'd guess he means that crazy al petrofsky trick 03:25:25 https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/browse_thread/thread/c32609e4fc12c523/5438d13dae4b9f71 03:25:29 http://tinyurl.com/7cybr35 03:27:25 but if it's treatment of functional programming is any indicator of quality, I wouldn't bother with LoL 03:28:25 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 03:34:20 -!- zmv [~zmv@186.204.150.191] has quit [Quit: imma catch some zees] 03:34:31 LoL is what it is. 03:36:33 It's a very interesting demonstration of what you can do with Common Lisp. Whether all those things are worth doing is another question. 03:37:03 I don't see any huge advantage of (aif (whatever) (foo it) (bar it)) over (aif it (whatever) (foo it) (bar it)), which can be done with syntax-rules. 03:37:11 And can be nested. 03:37:20 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has left #scheme 03:38:01 i'm definitely a fan of if-let over aif 03:38:56 There are good crazy Al* P. tricks and bad ones. 03:40:35 turbofail: Is that the actual name of an actual macro? 03:40:46 yes, in clojure 03:40:49 Ah. 03:40:56 i've seen it defined in other places 03:41:32 *jcowan* nods. 03:41:38 like in my .emacs 03:41:39 I just wasn't familiar with the name. 03:41:48 So I guess it isn't going in R7RS-small. :-) 03:41:49 yeah, I keep it in my (utils) 03:44:35 qu1j0t3: Okay, I'm rebuilding 4.7.0 to get a bootstrap chicken. 03:45:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:52 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.34.0] has joined #scheme 03:45:52 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 03:45:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.34.0] has quit [Changing host] 03:45:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 03:53:33 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:55:26 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:55:51 jcowan: ah so you found the recipe? 03:56:09 Yes. 03:56:26 I had thought there was a better way than doing two full builds, but apparently not. 03:58:50 What's more, it does not work! 03:59:00 Chicken 4.7.0 does not like -specialize. 04:01:01 using chicken-boot file in chicken-core instead 04:03:11 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: -___-] 04:03:26 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:05:58 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 04:15:44 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:04 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-203-159.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 04:16:58 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:17:50 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:18:11 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:24:45 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:28:01 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:06 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:36:52 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:38:37 OMG scribble is awesome 04:39:17 sharkbird [~sharkbird@67-220-6-139.usiwireless.com] has joined #scheme 04:39:20 adu: Yes. 04:39:49 adu: It reminds me a little of Scribe, or rather, Texinfo (which was derived from Scribe). 04:42:21 Brian K. Reid... 04:43:28 -!- sharkbird [~sharkbird@67-220-6-139.usiwireless.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43:41 never used either, but I've used LaTeX, and scribble is better 04:43:54 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-203-159.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:44:24 it must be good then. 04:44:44 *qu1j0t3* used TeX heavily for a few years 04:44:47 -!- masm [~masm@bl18-49-168.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:45:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:45:21 sharkbird [~sharkbird@67-220-6-139.usiwireless.com] has joined #scheme 04:47:41 I'm having to use LaTeX whether I like it or not for R7RS-small. 04:47:56 I'm considering using something else for R7RS-large, though. 04:49:01 for a weird question. is there much difference between O(logb10n) and O(logb2n)? 04:49:06 No. 04:49:24 so for every O(log n) I should just do O(log n)? 04:49:31 log10(x) == log(x) / log(10) 04:49:36 log2(x) == log(x) / log(2) 04:49:46 So both cases, there's a constant factor that comes out of the O(). 04:49:55 ok 04:50:25 It's not even necessary to specify log n vs. ln n in O() 04:50:30 for the same reason. 04:50:34 Indeed. 04:50:37 It's conventional to write log. 04:50:58 ln = Logarithme Neperien = log base e 04:51:05 log = log base 10. 04:51:18 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #scheme 04:51:37 pjb: For big-O analysis, the base doesn't make a difference. :-) 04:51:45 Indeed. 04:51:45 pjb: I thought it was "logarithme naturale"; certainly it is read "natural logarithm" in English, not "Napierian logarithm". 04:51:46 ok, neat 04:52:04 I wrote it in French :-) 04:52:47 jcowan! how goes R7RS? 04:52:52 -!- sharkbird [~sharkbird@67-220-6-139.usiwireless.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:00 But indeed, English people don't like to be reminded that a Scott man invented them. 04:53:08 sharkbird [~sharkbird@67-220-6-139.usiwireless.com] has joined #scheme 04:53:29 *jcowan* is not English, at all. 04:53:42 "Le logarithme naturel ou logarithme népérien est, en mathématiques, la fonction logarithme de base e." --fr.WP 04:53:49 More often, its just that Scots like reminding them 04:53:54 Sorry about the gender, anglophones always screw up gender. 04:53:57 Yes. Invented by John Napier. 04:54:20 _Le Morte Darthur_ and all that. 04:54:31 I am a Hiberno-Deutscher. 04:54:36 Well, word sexes are funny. 04:54:55 a procedure can be either O(n) or O(log n) under different conditions right? 04:55:04 Yes. 04:55:08 adu: R7RS-small is in the formal comment stage; R7RS-large will be starting up soon. 04:55:23 well, not if we take O to mean worst-case, no 04:55:24 the fast-expt example I guess shows this in sicp. 04:55:46 but it is certainly possible to implement the same function in different ways 04:55:56 if it's even then it's O(log n) if it's odd it's O(n) 04:55:57 jcowan: I have a database of functions, would that be of any use? 04:56:03 (define (f x) (if (odd? x) (let loop ((n x)) (if (= 0 n) 'done (loop (- n 1)))) (let loop ((n x)) (if (= 1 n) 'done (loop (/ n 2)))))) 04:56:16 chromaticwt: It is algorithms rather than procedures that are O(something). A sorting procedure may be implemented using an O(n), O(n log n), O(n^2), or O(2^n) algorithm among others. 04:56:29 ok 04:56:31 adu: It might be. What's in it? 04:56:33 O(rand) for bogosort 04:57:15 jcowan: so far, CL, R6RS, and a bunch of C libraries 04:57:53 adu: You mean implementations? 04:58:12 no, just signatures 04:58:22 Ah. 04:58:39 I don't see an immediate need for it, but thanks for offering. 04:59:15 What would be most useful at present is to look at the list of packages at trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/StandardDocket and write down some APIs for the packages that don't have any. 04:59:43 Sources can be Schemes, CL, or even Python. 04:59:53 I can see a signature DB being useful for that 05:00:12 Possibly. 05:00:20 We need things in the style of Scheme, of course. 05:00:37 (This is an open invitation, not just for adu. Payment in credit in the r7rs-large report.) 05:04:02 ijp | O(rand) for bogosort // O(n!) isn't it? 05:04:03 jcowan: I see TLS is missing, here is an excerpt from my DB regarding threads: http://pastebin.com/1e4LpJ38 05:04:24 TLS? 05:04:38 jcowan: "Thread-local storage" 05:04:49 on the standard docket 05:04:54 Ah, good. I'll add that to RevoteDocket, which is the input hopper. 05:05:43 ("Revote" is a misnomer, should just be "Vote") 05:10:28 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:13:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-121-69.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:18:09 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.110] has joined #scheme 05:19:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-189.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:21:24 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:23:01 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:25 jcowan: consider scribble 05:25:48 foof: :) 05:27:18 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:27:18 *sigh* 05:27:23 Yet another markup language. 05:28:00 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host155.201-253-134.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:28:08 jcowan: no, it's sexpr 05:28:17 well, @-expr 05:28:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.47.170] has joined #scheme 05:28:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.47.170] has quit [Changing host] 05:28:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 05:28:35 It's still a markup language, like (La)TeX or HTML or troff. 05:29:45 LaTeX is not one markup language, it's a bunch of languages squished together without sane escaping rules. 05:30:32 *jcowan* nods. 05:30:52 Texinfo, TEI, DocBook, .... 05:32:14 And the toolchain was invented by secret agents from the M$ Word team, who realized the only way they could sell more copies was to make the alternatives even worse. 05:32:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:34:48 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:26 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:41:51 Building Guile 2.0.x is a right pain. 05:44:57 forcer [~forcer@hmbg-5f7644f6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 05:45:19 I have 38 of my 40 Schemes reinstalled, with IronScheme and Guile the exceptions. 05:46:10 WOW 05:46:19 Why so many schemes 05:46:32 To test compatibility :-) 05:49:48 Not so much to test it, as to find out what actual implementations do. 05:50:00 racket, gosh, mit-scheme, gsi, csi -R numbers, bigloo, scsh, #guile, kawa, scheme48, sisc, chibi-scheme -xscheme.base, petite, scm -m, ikarus, vicare, larceny, ypsilon, mosh, iron, nexj, stklos, ksi, sscm, shoe, tinyscheme, s9, dream, rs, s7, bdc, xlisp, rep, jscheme, schemik, elk, umb-scheme, vx-scheme, oaklisp, ol 05:51:08 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:56:01 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:56:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:56:28 basically I want to write a game playing AI (gomoku) 05:56:39 When evaluating a proposal for R7RS, it's good to know which actual implementations do what. 05:56:44 is that practical in chicken scheme? 05:57:08 my attempts have failed because they all take forever to compute moves 05:57:28 Are you compiling with csc and it's still too slow? 05:57:49 The first thing is to try improving your algorithms. 05:58:42 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:01:47 choas [~lars@p4FDC5D2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:04:36 I've tried a lot 06:05:58 chibi :) 06:05:59 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.149.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:06:33 porco [~porco@64.62.209.76] has joined #scheme 06:07:56 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 06:13:42 tomodo: If the problem is really Chicken's speed, then Gambit is the next step up. After that, Stalin, but you *don't* want to go there unless you have no choice: compile times for Stalin programs can be measured in days. 06:14:17 I will try those buty I think my problem is the algorthm 06:14:45 -!- choas [~lars@p4FDC5D2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:16:54 Like I said, fixing the algorithm is almost always the right solution to speed problems. 06:17:42 I wish I knew how :E 06:18:36 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:20:33 cky: The similarity to texinfo is completely coincidental. 06:21:34 confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:23:48 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 06:25:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.255.169] has joined #scheme 06:25:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.255.169] has quit [Changing host] 06:25:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 06:32:46 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #scheme 06:33:31 -!- Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:07 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:37 -!- GoKhlaYe1 [~GoKhlaYeh@117.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:51:30 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:57:15 Arrgh. 06:57:37 ? 06:57:50 Guile refuses to build because it can't find 'bdw-gc'. (I do have libgc installed....) 06:58:11 jcowan: you have to set the envvar 06:58:21 Yeah, I'm trying that now. 06:58:38 iirc, there are no -- things for libgc 06:58:43 autotools is evil, evil, evil, evil 06:59:07 *jcowan* thinks open-source software should adopt the Chicken Way. 06:59:46 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:59:56 "If you aren't running BSD, Cygwin, Haiku, Linux, Mac OS X, MinGW, MinGw-Msys, or Solaris, you're on your own. Feel free to send us patches." 07:00:34 that sounds reasonable 07:00:53 noam [~noam@46.120.51.147] has joined #scheme 07:01:00 what about Android? 07:01:57 Unless you have the gcc toolchain, Chicken isn't much use. 07:02:37 the android toolchain is heavily modified gcc 07:03:33 *jcowan* nods. 07:03:42 Do you typically run it on the Android, or by cross-compiling? 07:03:48 the linker doesn't add libc, so it is the responsibility of every build script to add android-specific objects before and after every .o, otherwise the executable segfaults 07:04:17 xcompile 07:04:38 to date, I don't think any "official" android installation has gcc 07:05:58 Well, I suppose you could set up Chicken as a cross-compiler, then. There is an option to build Chicken to cross-compile on LInux for MinGW. 07:06:23 Okay, I've set the envvars, and it doesn't help. Damn thing still goes blooey. 07:08:11 Ahh, typo 07:08:11 how? 07:08:23 Or no, it's not. 07:10:01 what system? 07:11:31 I set BDW_GC_CFALGS instead of BDW_GC_CFLAGS. 07:11:53 oh, it worked, then? 07:12:13 Not sure yet, gotta wait another 5 minutes for ./configure to make its weary way down to that point. 07:12:14 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:12:18 or at least not going blooey yet? 07:13:10 No, it doesn't until it makes that check, which is at line 42134. 07:13:23 (Autotools: evil, wretched, stinking) 07:13:39 At least it could check for missing packages at the top, but nooooooo. 07:13:54 I personali like the idea of pkg-config over autotools 07:14:02 they serve almost the same purpose 07:14:56 Well, not if you want to know whether the linker understands `-z relro', as Guile does. 07:15:34 I never liked the idea of installing thousands of packages, and each one asks the same question "Do you have stdint.h"? 07:17:03 I just think the purpose of pkg-config should be mem-izing autoconf tests 07:17:44 s/mem/memo/ 07:19:53 The extent of checking should be if [ ! -e some-script ] ; then wget http://the-script > some-script ; fi 07:28:31 Guile 2.0.5 makes 1042 separate checkes. 07:28:33 checks, even 07:28:54 wow 07:29:12 that's why I go get coffee when compiling 07:29:29 checking whether // is distinct from / 07:29:45 checking whether rawmemchr is declared without a macro 07:29:59 checking whether isnan(float) can be used without linking with libm 07:30:17 checking whether rmdir works 07:30:38 checking whether snprintf respects a size of 1 07:30:54 checking whether the shell understands some XSI constructs 07:30:55 I've heard go 07:31:01 has short compile times 07:31:11 checking for sys/wait.h that is POSIX.1 compatible 07:31:14 Yes, it really does. 07:31:30 That is, if you use the Plan 9-derived compiler. Gccgo is as slow as ever. 07:31:37 Though not as slow as g++, I hasten to add. 07:31:47 checking for complex double 07:32:09 checking for CFPreferencesCopyAppValue 07:32:17 checking whether we need POSIX to get struct utimbuf 07:32:38 checking whether we have enough memory to do jack 07:32:47 (I made up the last one, but the others are all real.) 07:32:52 so if plan9 is unix 2.0 and inferno is unix 3.0 does that make go unix 4.0? 07:33:11 Not really,no. 07:33:39 It might be if there was a go-based OS, but there isn't yet. 07:34:39 until someone builds a gcless version I don't see that happening 07:35:33 gc is not so expensive nowadays. 07:37:47 Guile is still make-ing 07:38:17 It's taking forever to build psyntax-pp and boot-9 07:38:35 at least it configured 07:38:52 Yes. 07:39:01 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-qofdflrquseglwjw] has joined #scheme 07:39:56 *adu* needs sleep 07:40:22 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:43:10 -!- jcowan 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[~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:55:00 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:58:34 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-224.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 11:06:29 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:11 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:53 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:25:22 -!- noam [~noam@46.120.51.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:28 noam [~noam@46.120.51.147] has joined #scheme 11:33:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:38:06 t7 [~chatzilla@mailgate.ips-international.com] has joined #scheme 11:38:27 is there an interpreter on this channel? 11:38:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:38:42 rudybot: (+ 1 2) 11:38:43 pjb: your r5rs sandbox is ready 11:38:43 pjb: ; Value: 3 11:39:02 rudybot: ('+ 1 2) 11:39:03 t7: your sandbox is ready 11:39:03 t7: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: '+; arguments were: 1 2 11:39:16 i can only quote a list? 11:39:29 t7: you can quote everything. 11:39:43 t7: but you can apply only a procedure, not a symbol. 11:39:58 ah so (1 2) is invalid? 11:40:00 t7: in scheme, everything inside an application list is evaluated. 11:40:03 yes. 11:40:06 cool 11:40:11 Because 1 is not a procedure. 11:44:45 so (quote x) evaluates to x ? 11:44:51 Yes. 11:44:56 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d06761f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:45:06 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbeca0d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 11:45:53 rudybot: ('(+) 1 2) 11:45:53 t7: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: '(+); arguments were: 1 2 11:46:09 rudybot: (('+) 1 2) 11:46:09 t7: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: '+ (no arguments) 11:46:16 rudybot: (define (function x) x) 11:46:16 pjb: Done. 11:46:25 rudybot: ((function +) 1 2) 11:46:25 pjb: ; Value: 3 11:46:39 rudybot: quote is for data, function is for functions. 11:46:40 pjb: expecting: quote 11:46:45 t7: quote is for data, function is for functions. 11:46:53 :-) 11:47:00 ok cool 11:47:44 t7: Just write (+ 1 2). What are you trying to do? 11:47:53 rudybot: (let ((+ -)) (+ 1 3)) 11:47:54 pjb: ; Value: -2 11:48:20 is there a scheme with immutable values? 11:48:46 t7: yes, Racket has some immutable values. Therefore rudybot. 11:49:07 i mean _only_ immutable 11:51:23 All the scheme standards include mutation operators. 11:51:50 But you can write or use a subset of scheme with only purely functinal operators. 11:54:30 masm [~masm@bl17-196-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:58:32 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:55 -!- Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:2096:3f13:ae33:eb94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:00:26 Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:2096:3f13:ae33:eb94] has joined #scheme 12:01:37 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:07 does this 123 have the same type as this hello 12:03:13 yes they are both atoms 12:03:16 holy crap 12:03:22 there are no numbers 12:04:54 t7: in scheme, there's no type-of operator, (you could implement one). 12:05:24 so does + parse the atom as a number first? 12:05:28 The problem is that types form a lattice. So any object is of several types. All the objects are of the type t, no object is of the type nil. 12:05:41 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:05:53 Already you have a problem here, since in scheme, there's no nil, but () and #t. So you don't know what's the bottom type 12:06:14 nil is like [] in haskell right? 12:06:25 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@host86-137-13-34.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:06:26 t7: your model of the evaluation model of scheme is wrong. Read r5rs. 12:06:41 t7: I just wrote there's no nil in scheme! 12:06:42 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:07:03 empty list = nil :3 12:07:08 No. 12:07:12 Not in scheme. 12:07:20 Perhaps you want Common Lisp? Go to #lisp. 12:13:48 pjb: can i get rudybot to give me a type of an evaluated expression? 12:14:06 I just wrote that no. 12:14:09 You don't rea what I write? 12:14:12 read 12:14:51 But if you want you can write a type-of funcction. 12:15:32 i have to read the whole of r5rs before i can understand this? 12:15:52 r5rs are 50 fucking pages! 12:16:31 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-98-87.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20:52 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:22:27 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #scheme 12:22:57 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@117.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 12:28:15 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:30:03 ijp`` [~user@host31-53-175-153.range31-53.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:31:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.169.138] has joined #scheme 12:31:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.169.138] has quit [Changing host] 12:31:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 12:32:33 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:32:34 -!- ijp` [~user@host109-151-50-100.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:32:50 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:33:41 i dont understand how a number literal can be real, integral and everything else. Its like polymorphism 12:35:18 t7: no, it's like sets and subsets and supersets. 12:36:14 an object can be an Apple, but it's also a Fruit, and a Vegetal and a LivingBeing and an Object. 12:36:26 And it's Something. 12:37:41 All integers are real numbers 12:37:56 All integers are rational. Some rational numbers are real, but some are not 12:38:50 Naturals  Integers  Rationals  Decimals  Reals  Complexes  Quaternions 12:39:28 how can a Nat be a quaternion? 12:39:39 I'm not sure of that classiciation 12:39:45 Not all rationals are decimals. E.g. 1/2 12:39:46 t7: 0 is a quaternion. 12:39:49 Er. 1/3 12:40:10 0 = 0+0i+0j+0k 12:40:17 I'd put them the other way around; any decimal is a rational, as a fraction of some power of 10 12:41:07 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:36 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 12:42:02 -!- pjb is now known as Guest45823 12:42:03 -!- noam [~noam@46.120.51.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:15 -!- Guest45823 is now known as pjb 12:42:40 noam [~noam@46.120.51.147] has joined #scheme 12:43:27 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:43:52 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:37 amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-98-87.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 12:47:36 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:52:04 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-254.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has 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bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:40:47 chromaticwt [~user@71-222-151-95.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:42:21 -!- omegacfx_ is now known as omegacfx 16:44:38 -!- ASau [~user@176.14.69.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:39 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:50:17 -!- confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:21 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 17:04:13 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:09:03 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #scheme 17:14:24 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:17:16 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-173-75-156-203.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:24:15 what makes a process recursive over iterative? a process is recursive if it has deferred operations, and iterative if it doesn't and uses state variables instead? 17:25:45 chromaticwt: I think the term "iteration" is a misnomer and you're better off calling it "recursion with accumulation" or something like that. 17:25:49 Since they are both recursive. 17:26:13 or we could follow sicp's terminology 17:26:22 I'm reading sicp 17:26:57 iterative-recursive seems clear enough... and yes you can talk about deferred computations when looking at the space complexity 17:27:20 i don't know that i'd say "state variables" since they're not variables, just bindings 17:27:31 ok 17:27:31 and work identically whether iterative-recursive or not. 17:27:56 just that the space behaviour is different if, as you say, there are deferred operations that prevent TCO 17:28:58 neat 17:29:34 i mean, you are right that the parameters are "state" of the computation 17:30:17 ALL needed state, i suppose, if it's iterative-recursive. but i bet sicp explains this better. :) 17:33:36 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #scheme 17:34:37 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 17:35:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:36:57 just remember one thing guys, always be true to yourself 17:41:22 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-149.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:45:03 -!- Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:1468:2b2d:ae33:eb94] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:45:46 Qworkescence: ? 17:46:31 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:47:13 which part was confusing? 17:47:36 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:47:36 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:47:36 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:47:37 Qworkescence: I just watned to know where _that_ came from. 17:47:40 *wanted 17:48:26 asumu: Are you "Asumu Takikawa" on Stack Overflow? Small world. :-) 17:48:35 cky: Yes. :) 17:50:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:51:33 Right now I have 57,777 rep (thanks, whoever upvoted my syntax-case answer :-)). Very nice number. :-) 17:51:37 asumu: I upvoted your answer. :-) 17:51:42 Nice about syntax-parse. 17:52:47 cky: that was me on the upvote, since we pretty much gave the same advice. :p 17:53:01 :-D 17:53:45 Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:1c52:2b2d:ae33:eb94] has joined #scheme 17:55:53 bruegmann [~bruegmann@asphalt.ptt.uni-duisburg.de] has joined #scheme 17:57:29 -!- bruegmann [~bruegmann@asphalt.ptt.uni-duisburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:41 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host155.201-253-134.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:44 -!- wingo [~wingo@138.pool85-50-113.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:12:29 bagratte [~chatzilla@2-226-247-111.ip183.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 18:12:40 -!- porco [~porco@123.114.102.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:14:10 confab [~win7@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 18:17:29 porco [~porco@125.33.83.123] has joined #scheme 18:18:39 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 18:27:12 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 18:29:10 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:29:37 so for another newb question. in general if a problem _divides_ by some amount it is logarithmic? 18:32:00 that's not a newb question at all, I think it's actually rather an interesting question 18:32:41 :) 18:33:15 yes 18:33:19 chromaticwt: well, at least part of the problem may be logarithmic 18:34:42 it's a good intuition chromaticwt. work reduces by a factor in a quantum, means that total work ~ factor^n-steps 18:34:57 (with turbofail's disclaimer) 18:35:29 e.g. the multiplication algorith halves one number each iteration until it's zero, steps it takes is O(log2(n)) 18:35:50 tomodo: it can never reach zero, but it can reach 1. :) 18:36:04 I want to say that you will get a logarithmic amount of "steps" the steps could be any complexity 18:36:07 1/2 = 0 18:36:10 +where 18:36:14 tomodo: for some versions of /, sure :) 18:36:26 tomodo: but a base case is often 1 (e.g. merge sort) 18:38:51 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:45:22 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:59 dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has joined #scheme 18:53:50 neato 18:59:16 -!- confab [~win7@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:32 -!- Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:1c52:2b2d:ae33:eb94] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:01:17 Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:246e:2b2d:ae33:eb94] has joined #scheme 19:03:27 choas [~lars@p4FDC5D2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:08:13 kniu [~kniu@pool-173-75-156-203.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:12:24 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 19:15:08 ASau [~user@95-24-144-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:27:38 -!- leo2007 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[~charlieb@pdpc/supporter/active/charlieb] has joined #scheme 21:02:27 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 21:02:58 -!- charlieb [~charlieb@pdpc/supporter/active/charlieb] has left #scheme 21:05:34 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 21:05:53 -!- Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:14b5:2b2d:ae33:eb94] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:06:32 Wow, ddate has a serious bug; try: ddate +'%A, the %e of %B' 21:06:48 This only works today, I think; it being St. Tib's day and all. 21:07:07 ROFL 21:07:20 wtf is ddate 21:07:49 ddate (1) - converts Gregorian dates to Discordian dates 21:08:33 Ah, this works: ddate +'%{%A, the %e of %B%}' 21:08:45 "Today is St. Tib's Day in the YOLD 3178" 21:09:14 jonrafkind: It's an excellent calendar; far exceding the Gregorian in the pregnancy of its nominations, &c. 21:09:51 ill be sure to notify wall street 21:09:57 Heh. 21:09:58 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-144-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:11:04 I've configured mutt to use "Quoth so-and-so on St. Tib's day" in replies; the response ranges from indifference through amusement to confusion. 21:11:55 (All hail Eris.) 21:12:01 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:20 Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:14b5:2b2d:ae33:eb94] has joined #scheme 21:12:40 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:43 Eris: goddess of trolls? 21:12:58 hm if you run ddate through gdb it dies in getenv() from libc 21:14:28 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1218-41.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:17:42 keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB7A25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:18:18 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB7A25.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #scheme 21:20:33 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:20:53 -!- Enoria [~Enoria@jte.kidradd.org] has quit [Read 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[~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:04 -!- Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:14b5:2b2d:ae33:eb94] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:32:31 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:59 Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 22:36:38 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-224.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:38:19 Im reading a little about continuations and one statement got me a bit confunddled. This is the resource: http://community.schemewiki.org/?call-with-current-continuation And it says the following: 22:38:28 Now what happened here? The return procedure did the same thing it did above: The 22 passed to return is used as the return value of the call/cc call. This return value is then added to 1, which yield 23. And this is what we got. We never returned from the call to return, but returned from the addition way above there. 22:38:28 The difference here is that we re-entered the computation from outside, we did not just leave it. This is a big brain-twister. Be sure to understand it! 22:38:43 Im a bit confused here. 22:40:13 When a continuation escapes the call/cc and is later used, what exactly happens? 22:41:52 If we draw an environment diagram would the continuation point at the call/cc frame, thus preventing it from being garbage-collected? 22:43:50 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #scheme 22:43:57 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:44:51 *offby1* fidgets uncomfortably 22:46:16 Im a slight bit flabergasted by all this. 22:46:55 -!- chromaticwt [~user@71-222-151-95.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:47:15 chromaticwt [~user@71-222-151-95.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:48:34 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:48:40 Anyone? 22:52:37 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:52:40 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:53:01 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-03.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:53:27 rostayob [~rostayob@5add3a82.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 22:58:25 Well, if I put it this way instead: why does (begin (do-a) (function (call/cc .. set! callback cont ..)) (do-c)) (callback arg) only return (function arg) and not run the (do-c)? 22:58:27 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 22:58:38 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:00:46 tuubow [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-03.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:05:01 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 23:05:10 Aune: call/cc captures the environment surrounding it. 23:05:22 Err, rather the continuation. 23:05:34 Thus, the `1` in the example from the Wiki is not captured. 23:05:43 Because it's inside the handler function, not the continuation of the call/cc. 23:06:09 Ok, but when we call the continuation from outside, how large is the "surrounding environment"? 23:07:08 What do you mean surrounding? It's always at the point that the call/cc was called. 23:07:52 i.e., the return variable is bound to the continuation that existed around the call/cc. It doesn't matter where you call it from. 23:09:03 I mean (fun1 (fun2 (fun3 (call/cc ..)))) => (cont 1) -> (fun1 (fun2 (fun3 1))) 23:09:58 But if call/cc is inside a begin, the what happens to the other statements in the begin? Are they not considered part of the surrounding environment? 23:10:28 They are. 23:10:33 rudybot: (define return #f) 23:10:33 asumu: Done. 23:10:49 rudybot: (begin 1 2 (call/cc (lambda (k) (set! return k))) 3) 23:10:49 asumu: ; Value: 3 23:10:55 rudybot: (return 5) 23:10:55 asumu: ; Value: 5 23:11:08 Hmm. 23:11:54 rudybot: (begin 1 2 (call/cc (lambda (k) (set! return k))) (display "hi")) 23:11:54 asumu: ; stdout: "hi" 23:11:58 rudybot: (return 5) 23:11:58 asumu: ; Value: 5 23:12:06 This is what seems strange to me. 23:14:46 -!- forcer [~forcer@hmbg-5f7644f6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:14:46 It's because of the semantics of begin. 23:14:58 Begin just splices its arguments into the surrounding context. 23:15:17 So at the REPL, there is no continuation except the top-level one to capture. 23:15:38 If you defined `begin` as a macro using lambda, it would be different. 23:15:53 Hmmm 23:15:59 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:18:19 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:15 Ok, that seems clear. But I still have a weak grasp of what actually constitutes the surrounding environment. 23:20:42 rudybot: (define-syntax my-begin (syntax-rules () [(my-begin e) (lambda () e)] [(my-begin e e2 ...) ((lambda () (my-begin e2 ...)) e))])) 23:20:42 asumu: (match '(x (y (x a b c (1 2 3) d e f))) (('x *** (a b c)) (list a b c))) 23:22:26 rudybot: (define-syntax my-begin (syntax-rules () [(my-begin e) (lambda () e)] [(my-begin e e2 ...) ((lambda () (my-begin e2 ...)) e)])) 23:22:26 asumu: Done. 23:22:31 rudybot: (my-begin 1 2 3) 23:22:31 asumu: error: #: expects no arguments, given 1: 1 23:23:15 rudybot: (define-syntax my-begin (syntax-rules () [(my-begin e) e] [(my-begin e e2 ...) ((lambda (x) (my-begin e2 ...)) e)])) 23:23:15 asumu: Done. 23:23:27 rudybot: (define return #f) 23:23:27 asumu: Done. 23:23:30 jonrafkind: Interesting 23:23:36 Anyone see this, by the way? http://pretty-lisp.org/ 23:23:44 rudybot: (my-begin 1 (call/cc (lambda (k) (set! return k))) 3) 23:23:44 asumu: ; Value: 3 23:23:45 looks terrible 23:23:45 Cute toy 23:23:50 (return 2) 23:23:54 rudybot: (return 2) 23:23:54 asumu: ; Value: 3 23:23:59 Aune: There you go 23:24:24 Heh: "To use the online demo you need the browser Google Chrome." Whoops; still in the Opera ghetto. 23:25:15 asumu, ok. 23:25:56 klutometis: yeah, i was grumpy about that too, as a firefox user 23:26:48 Aune: Continuations are basically just contexts that you evaluate and plug a value into. So function arguments, because you evaluate the arguments first. Or the right-hand side of let-bindings. And so on. 23:27:08 I found the diagrams in this paper helpful (define-syntax my-begin (syntax-rules () [(my-begin e) e] [(my-begin e e2 ...) ((lambda (x) (my-begin e2 ...)) e)])) 23:27:11 Whoops 23:27:39 This link: http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/icfp07-fyff.pdf 23:27:58 asumu, ok, will take a look 23:28:02 (there is a lot of unrelated stuff in there, but on page 2 there is a diagram I like) 23:32:34 samth: Given things such as , I might be forced to switch at some point; which makes me grumpy, too. 23:32:39 http://tinyurl.com/828zctf 23:38:36 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 23:38:36 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:41:57 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:42:33 -!- choas [~lars@p4FDC5D2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:42:43 Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:1829:2b2d:ae33:eb94] has joined #scheme 23:45:23 -!- Lajjla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:cc3:2b2d:ae33:eb94] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:47:36 sousousou [~user@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #scheme 23:48:09 -!- snizzo [~quassel@host12-156-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:14 noam__ [~noam@46.120.51.147] has joined #scheme 23:49:37 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:52:46 -!- noam [~noam@46.120.51.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:58:26 klutometis: gnash works with youtube. 23:58:46 rudybot: (define callback #f) 23:58:47 Aune: your sandbox is ready 23:58:47 Aune: Done.