00:01:58 -!- albert-sicp [~albert-si@24-205-81-111.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:53 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 00:16:32 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:41 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:20 -!- kuribas` [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:20:44 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:04 Is it bad that sicp just blows over my head like I'm an idiot? -.- 00:36:38 do htdp first 00:37:10 Any explaination why? 00:37:23 its much easier, it will help you learn scheme things 00:37:32 *CampinSam* nods 00:37:51 Uh off the wall.. what about concrete abstractions, and simply scheme? 00:38:58 i dont know much about those, but its worth a try I guess 00:39:08 probably you just have to see the same material a few times before you grok it 00:39:35 *CampinSam* nods again. 00:49:35 gnuvince [~vince@ip-50-21-135-71.dsl.netrevolution.com] has joined #scheme 00:49:57 How does one catch an error as thrown by the error function? 00:52:37 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:53:43 gnuvince: Depends on implementation. 00:54:17 cky: I'm using Gambit Scheme to build my own, hopefully self-sufficient, Scheme compiler (for a class in school). 00:54:39 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:54:40 If the error mechanism is too complex, I'll probably use values to represent errors instead. 00:55:08 I don't use Gambit, so I can't say. 00:55:17 But for example, in Guile, you can use "catch". 00:55:58 ok 00:56:02 I'll ask my teacher tomorrow 00:56:09 He's Marc Feeley, the author of Gambit. 00:56:25 Well damn. 00:56:51 Wow. Very impressive. 00:57:01 hypercube32 [~hypercube@246.111.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:57:49 gnuvince: (The authors of major Scheme implementations are pretty well-known in this channel. I'd be surprised if anybody here hasn't heard of Marc Feeley. :-)) 00:59:22 had lunch with him once. 00:59:29 *offby1* nods smugly 00:59:32 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:10 cky: I didn't want to presume that I had a popular teacher ;) 01:00:17 Hahahahaha. 01:00:23 offby1: Wow! Nice. 01:00:36 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 01:01:55 he was sad about the impending R6RS if I recall correctly. (This was in Portland at a convention) 01:02:39 Obviously, that's not an uncommon sentiment, or else R7RS would have taken a very different direction. :-P 01:03:37 But, *nods* re the context of the meeting. 01:03:46 I don't know his feelings on R7RS, but I recall distinctly him telling me and a friend in private that he thought R6RS was "de la merde" (shit in French). 01:04:07 gnuvince: that certainly squares with my recollection. 01:04:15 (although he spoke English throughout lunch :_) 01:04:27 When in Portland... 01:07:40 -!- notzmv [~zmv@186.204.150.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:08:16 Put a bird on it? 01:10:04 pumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 01:10:11 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:11:10 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:11:10 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 01:13:23 steshaw [~steshaw@CPE-124-186-124-173.lns10.woo.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 01:15:27 -!- steshaw [~steshaw@CPE-124-186-124-173.lns10.woo.bigpond.net.au] has left #scheme 01:31:26 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:33:21 porco [~porco@123.114.49.229] has joined #scheme 01:37:01 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has joined #scheme 01:47:14 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:55:28 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE5.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:57:43 woonie [~woonie@175.156.211.52] has joined #scheme 01:59:16 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:01:54 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has joined #scheme 02:26:08 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 02:34:00 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.211.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:39:27 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:46:22 Could anyone comment on this way of performing a "loop"? http://paste.lisp.org/display/127559 02:47:28 gnuvince: There's an easier way to write it. 02:47:32 gnuvince: But the idea is fine. 02:47:45 i.e., rather than wrapping the whole thing in a let, just return (reverse accum) directly. 02:48:04 cky: I expect to do something with some-list later on. 02:48:26 Sure. But you can return (reverse accum) anyway, unless you want some-list to have reversed order to start with. 02:48:56 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 02:49:03 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 02:49:14 (let ((some-list (reverse (let loop ...)))) ? 02:49:42 No. :-) 02:49:49 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:49:53 then I'm not sure I understand. 02:50:02 (let ((some-list (let loop ... (if (= n 10) (reverse accum) ...] 02:51:05 ah, ok. 02:51:24 Thanks 02:52:09 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:35 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-065-013-204-170.sip.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:53:25 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 02:55:58 :-) 02:57:42 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-182-210.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:03:47 masm [~masm@188.81.182.210] has joined #scheme 03:07:23 -!- masm [~masm@188.81.182.210] has left #scheme 03:17:55 there's a rare lisp article on slashdot's front page 03:18:23 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:18:23 http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/02/07/0043241/hacking-the-nes-with-lisp 03:18:24 http://tinyurl.com/6oxpsbe 03:21:22 :-) 03:26:27 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:27:05 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 03:28:51 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 03:29:10 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:33:55 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:40:44 jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:42:58 hoi 03:48:55 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:55:26 jcowan_ [~John@66.108.19.185] has joined #scheme 03:58:41 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:00:36 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:01:33 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 04:02:13 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-52-155-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 04:03:17 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:47 -!- bigfg [~b_fin_g@r186-52-133-199.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:06:15 -!- jcowan [~John@66.108.19.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:06:36 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:10 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 04:08:51 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 04:15:26 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:23:24 jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:29:18 this is a pretty awesome Scheme talk that Dan Friedman gave at Clojure/conj, he showed off relational interpreters written in miniKanren and CLP(FD) w/ cKanren: http://blip.tv/clojure/dan-friedman-and-william-byrd-minikanren-5936333 04:32:05 dnolen: Was that the one I attended? :-) 04:32:16 dnolen: (Did you attend it? A good number of people did.) 04:32:58 But yes, I was very impressed. 04:32:58 cky: I was there! 04:33:05 dnolen: :-D 04:33:58 dnolen: Ooh. While I remember. Since you're core.logic and all. 04:34:29 dnolen: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9164051/why-does-minikanren-names-always-end-with-o 04:34:30 http://tinyurl.com/73lhxbh 04:34:53 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:35:22 dnolen: (I enjoyed your presentation at Clojure/conj a lot, too.) 04:36:09 cky: I think it's just to visually differentiate goals from functions. 04:36:12 cky: thx 04:37:41 dnolen: Yeah, what I figured. :-) Just wanted to see if "the horse's mouth" had anything to add to the topic beyond what I wrote in my answer. :-) 04:39:07 cky: heh not really - I think Dan is really, really into notation - that's why the Schemer series are almost but not quite legitimate Scheme. 04:40:10 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 04:40:22 :-) 04:56:49 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:25 I've been trying to read The Little Schemer, but it's difficult to stay with it through the beginning. 05:00:00 levi: What the heck? 05:00:04 levi: It's a very readable book. 05:00:13 levi: If it's too slow in the beginning, just skim it. 05:00:48 Yeah, I will probably do some skimming when I get back to it. 05:03:48 nyingen [~jeeves@cpe-98-28-19-62.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:13:14 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:17:07 -!- nyingen [~jeeves@cpe-98-28-19-62.columbus.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 05:22:57 xwl_ [user@nat/nokia/x-mklhtzukdijopstp] has joined #scheme 05:24:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:25:18 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 05:29:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:29:43 grettke [~grettke@CPE-70-92-14-73.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:31:56 -!- grettke [~grettke@CPE-70-92-14-73.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:37:16 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 05:39:56 tom_i [~thomasing@80.176.225.5] has joined #scheme 05:51:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:52:28 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 05:56:41 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@246.111.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:00:26 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 06:00:42 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:01:49 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:15:02 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:55 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:15:55 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:15:55 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 06:19:12 -!- r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:19:59 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #scheme 06:22:32 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:26:22 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:32:10 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 06:46:30 ysph [~user@mobile-166-147-124-046.mycingular.net] has joined #scheme 06:57:03 i tried to read the little schemer myself some years ago 06:57:09 found the style incredibly annoying 06:57:33 the text reads as if the authors are talking to a 5 yr old 06:59:20 I think that's clearly intentional. 06:59:32 "Never underestimate the reader's intelligence, or overestimate his information." 07:03:27 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-154-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:47 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-psvgzhcjcihbexfd] has joined #scheme 07:08:57 amoe [~amoe@78.147.154.164] has joined #scheme 07:11:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:23:32 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-182-240-4.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:35:18 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@80.176.225.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36:19 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 07:39:08 -!- shardz [~samuel@ilo.staticfree.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:53:16 I had that feeling too when I read it. I think I gave up quickly because of that. 07:55:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:02:17 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 08:02:17 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:02:17 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:03:59 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:04:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-110.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:09:14 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:23:12 -!- ASau` [~user@95-27-175-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:40 ASau` [~user@93-80-253-228.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 08:28:09 -!- dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wspttflpuitepmcw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:59 Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-110-168-69-128.revip5.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 08:35:23 how long does it take you to read r5rs? 08:37:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 08:38:32 it's only 50 pages, isn't it? not so long 08:40:21 yeah 08:40:26 but there are like 1000 words per page 08:44:20 i've read it a few of times, though only once or twice entirely in one swoop 08:49:11 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wzbnswfzcocpphtu] has joined #scheme 08:50:19 does reading it in 2 sessions count as one swoop? 08:51:48 ijp [~user@host109-154-206-219.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 08:54:04 :) does it really matter? 08:56:39 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:39 i just want to know the scope of your swoop 08:58:33 there's at least one time when i read the entire thing in one go (i.e. from start to end) with no breaks 08:59:04 that's r5rs though, i've never read all of r6rs. 08:59:19 how long did it take you to read it in one go? 08:59:40 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:59:41 and did you find it hard to keep concentration? did you take many breaks ? 09:03:13 it's been some years, i don't quite remember. but i read parts of it before, so it wasn't all new. it was before my master's thesis, to make sure i knew what the standard said 09:03:36 tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has joined #scheme 09:08:27 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-149-239.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:23:54 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:25:30 rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:26:50 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 09:27:02 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:39:40 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 09:49:14 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 09:52:57 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 09:58:09 I've just written a function string-index where (string-index "hello" #\e) => 1, and (string-index "hello" #\x) => #f Is that commonly known by another name, or will this name do? 09:58:33 Namely: return the first 0-based index of chr in str, or #f 09:59:29 string-index is the common name, yes 10:00:14 Coolbeans. About to use it to implement arbitrary-radix string->number, based on folding the digit values of the chars, using theabove to look them up in the string "012345..." 10:01:37 I am starting to like this "one special false value" thing of Scheme, as compared languages like C or Perl. 10:01:46 Returning #f from such a function means that index 0 is still true 10:03:14 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:24 Though I am surprised even R6 doens't define a functoin like it 10:03:27 also my typing sucks 10:03:28 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 10:05:41 -!- ysph [~user@mobile-166-147-124-046.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:13 -!- snorble [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 10:12:06 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #scheme 10:14:33 -!- porco [~porco@123.114.49.229] has quit [] 10:18:31 snorble 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[~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:29:20 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.139.94] has joined #scheme 13:33:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:34:47 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:36:00 xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has joined #scheme 13:44:22 -!- ijp [~user@host86-168-32-148.range86-168.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:45:25 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:46:51 -!- confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:48:37 metasyntax|work [~taylor@fw-its-kt209a-2.dyn.ipfw.edu] has joined #scheme 13:48:48 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:54:05 kniu [~kniu@pool-74-98-32-113.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:57:25 _schulte_ [~eschulte@173-12-202-43-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 13:59:56 cky: my new CV http://stackoverflow.com/badges/43/net?userid=15541 14:02:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:03:34 -!- xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:08:25 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@173-12-202-43-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:12:05 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 14:12:06 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:17:10 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 14:20:02 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:20:48 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:21:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:28:11 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:28:33 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit 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[~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:12:37 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:12:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:27:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:29:49 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-180-28.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 15:31:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has joined #scheme 15:37:19 leppie: Nice. :-) I have gold tag badges for Java and C++. :-P 15:37:39 cool 15:37:54 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:38:48 oo, got c# 1 too, but 114 members in that group, stip, might make a nice page filler :p 15:38:55 s/stip/still/ 15:40:31 cky: http://stackoverflow.com/badges/868/scheme heh! congrat eli ;p 15:41:31 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 11.0/20120201153158]] 15:43:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:44:40 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:48:27 Indeed. :-D 15:49:51 LeoNerd: Wait, what? How does string-index help you implement string->number? 15:50:20 Oh, you were going to do linear searches through "0123456789abcdef..." on each iteration. >_< 15:50:37 string->list to obtain chars. map them down string-index "01234..." to obtain list of integers. fold that on left + (radix * right) 15:50:48 .. possibly with left/right swapped. I can't think 15:51:21 Yeah. It's dog-slow but neater and more readable than playing the usual ASCII ordering tricks 15:53:51 There's only a slight wrinkle in your scheme. You need to case-fold the input before that will work. 15:54:02 Yah 15:54:07 And if you case-fold the input, there's really no "ASCII ordering tricks" that you need to worry about. 15:55:36 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 15:59:44 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:01:42 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 16:06:02 shardz [~samuel@216.93.243.34] has joined #scheme 16:08:24 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE5.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:13:46 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 16:16:00 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #scheme 16:17:16 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:21:17 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:22:51 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 16:25:08 ijp [~user@host109-156-159-191.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 16:26:30 jrslepak [~jrslepak@129.10.228.44] has joined #scheme 16:30:38 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:30:42 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@129.10.228.44] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:44 bweaver [~bweaver@host-68-169-158-230.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:31:40 mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:32:33 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:35:35 Is it just me, or does anyone else find first, second, third,... more readable than car, cadr, caddr,...? 16:35:46 LeoNerd: it's not just you 16:36:22 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has joined #scheme 16:36:29 LeoNerd: why not use an automaton? Take a look at http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Talks/SwineBeforePerl/ for an idea about what kind of macros could be useful. 16:36:33 tradition is a cruel mistres 16:36:39 *mistress 16:37:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:39:13 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: restarting emacs] 16:40:00 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:42:46 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:42 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:45:47 rudybot: (require srfi/1) 16:45:48 cky: Done. 16:45:59 rudybot: (list first second third fourth fifth sixth seventh eighth ninth tenth) 16:45:59 cky: ; Value: (# # # # # # # # # #) 16:46:04 LeoNerd: ^^--- 16:46:43 Mhm 16:46:45 I have those 16:46:53 .oO( Though I don't yet have named procedures. Gotta add that. ) 16:46:56 ((somehow)) 16:47:00 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 16:47:05 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:48:21 LeoNerd: SRFI 1 only goes up to "tenth". 16:48:34 For the rest, I guess you'll just have to use list-ref. 16:49:02 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 16:49:28 *LeoNerd* nod 16:49:45 So slight aside: how does procedure naming usually work? 16:49:52 Detecting what name to put, I mean 16:53:12 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:53:39 LeoNerd: I don't know how various Scheme implementations do it, but I know how Ruby does it (for classes). :-P 16:54:18 So, in Ruby, a class has a name slot. Initially it's not set. When it's first assigned to a constant, the constant's name is put in the name slot. 16:54:33 Once assigned that way, the name doesn't change, even if subsequently assigned to another constant. 16:54:47 Righty. 16:55:06 Example: 16:55:08 irb(main):001:0> a = Class.new 16:55:10 => # 16:55:12 irb(main):002:0> a 16:55:14 => # 16:55:16 irb(main):003:0> Foo = a 16:55:18 => Foo 16:55:20 irb(main):004:0> a 16:55:22 => Foo 16:56:06 Yah, I was thinking of just adding a 'name' slot to my lambda struct, and filling it if undef at the time it is 'define' or 'set!'ed into a named slot 16:56:24 .. or implicitly as the result of another lambda binding 17:01:35 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:06:47 Interesting. I think Racket works the same way. 17:07:03 rudybot: (define foo (let ((bar (lambda () 42))) bar)) 17:07:04 cky: Done. 17:07:06 rudybot: foo 17:07:06 cky: ; Value: # 17:09:23 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:11:10 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:12:57 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16:20 phao [phao@177.115.31.61] has joined #scheme 17:17:32 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #scheme 17:18:07 cky: Cute, I mostly didn't know about those kind of badges... 17:20:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:22:06 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:22:43 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 17:23:11 eli: I think you're the only person with a gold [scheme] badge, so good job! :-) 17:24:21 s/gold/silver/ 17:24:29 (Nobody has a gold one yet, I see. But I'm sure you'll be the first!) 17:27:10 LeoNerd: Interesting, though, that Racket doesn't set a name if it's initially unset. 17:27:18 rudybot: (define foo (box (lambda () 42))) 17:27:18 cky: Done. 17:27:25 rudybot: (define bar (unbox foo)) 17:27:25 cky: Done. 17:27:27 rudybot: bar 17:27:27 cky: ; Value: # 17:27:35 LeoNerd: ^^--- notice, no name 17:28:47 -!- gnuvince [~vince@ip-50-21-135-71.dsl.netrevolution.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:28:49 In that way, it's different from how Ruby does it. 17:28:51 irb(main):001:0> Foo = [Class.new] 17:28:53 => [#] 17:28:55 irb(main):002:0> Bar = Foo.first 17:28:57 => Bar 17:28:59 irb(main):003:0> Foo 17:29:01 => [Bar] 17:29:18 cky: Racket infers the name syntactically, which is why the box thing is successfully hiding it. 17:29:31 (define foo (values (lambda () 42))) wouldn't work, but (define foo (begin (lambda () 42))) would. 17:29:40 eli: Ooh! That makes sense. 17:29:46 My guess is that Ruby is doing some half-assed runtime thing... 17:29:51 Yes. 17:30:27 Ugh... 17:30:29 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-149-239.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:30:54 I did what you did, then added `Bar = 3', and `Foo' still prints as `[Bar]'. 17:37:46 Yep. 17:40:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 17:50:54 is scheme used a lot in schools besides mit? 17:51:14 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 17:51:58 Not here in brazil. 17:53:11 mario-goulart: how did you find it? 17:55:24 I was interested in lisp (because of elisp) and picked scheme because it looked cleaner. 17:56:37 ah, cool. 17:58:30 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 17:59:01 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 18:09:22 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:10 gnuvince [~vince@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #scheme 18:16:55 I first learnt of Scheme via R. I majored in stats at Auckland (where R was invented), and since I'm a programmer, my honours project was to work on R. 18:17:01 R's design was very much inspired by Scheme. 18:22:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:23:55 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 18:28:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.139.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:32:10 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:32:40 -!- drwho [~drwho@152-123-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 18:35:28 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 18:37:23 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:24 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:37:29 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 18:38:55 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 18:40:07 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:41:46 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has joined #scheme 18:42:04 -!- rostayob [francesco@nat/vmware/x-blhndbcaevxujebz] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 18:45:03 -!- Sicp [~ongoing@unaffiliated/odaym] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:45:27 -!- gnuvince [~vince@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: C-x C-c] 18:52:47 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:53:25 G68196 [~toor@41.189.243.129] has joined #scheme 18:55:14 as were other languages ... JavaScript, believe it or not 18:58:22 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:00:40 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:05:10 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 19:10:08 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:47 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 19:12:02 offby1: thank goodness. 19:12:28 i feel giddy sometimes watching the sicp lectures, but i am not sure if its because of scheme or programming in general (my only other frame of reference is a little python). scheme is so much prettier 19:16:16 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:29:02 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:29:14 -!- G68196 [~toor@41.189.243.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:51 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:30:39 G68196 [~toor@cayce.dropsonde.net] has joined #scheme 19:32:01 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 19:45:36 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:54:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:02 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 19:58:11 sousousou, I think mit is kind of dropping it little by little 19:58:14 there is that python course now 19:58:53 which is the new intro. course, it seems that SICP goes only after that, and I've watched a speech given by a student there, he mentioned that it is kind of different than it used to be 20:01:13 ticking [~janpaulbu@p5B3D288B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:01:23 http://www.codequarterly.com/2011/hal-abelson/ gives fair reasoning for replacing 6.001 with 6.01 20:02:10 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE5.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:02:59 I didn't know it was a replacement 20:02:59 sad to hear that.. the "new" one is extremely weak 20:03:01 if compared to SICP 20:03:45 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d067f15.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:03:54 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f7698b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 20:04:14 they don't compare, it's kinda the point 20:04:41 6.01 is intended to replace _several_ courses 20:05:28 this 6.01 is that one with python? 20:05:36 phao: did you get enough reading lists btw from your question a couple of weeks ago 20:05:50 phao: i'm not sure if you got the lists i linked to you 20:05:52 From an EE point of view 6.01 probably doesn't compare to the full semester EE class. But CS students will appreciate that, just as EE students will appreciate not having to do a whole semester of programming 20:06:07 qu1j0t3, what question? (I ask so many questions hehehe) 20:06:24 I received a memo though 20:06:36 with lists with suggestions of books 20:06:36 was it from you? 20:08:21 probably. there's another list here http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20books 20:08:57 phao: & http://www.quora.com/Lisp-programming-language/What-are-some-classic-Lisp-books/answer/Robert-Smith-9 20:08:57 http://tinyurl.com/6pj8ypo 20:09:24 qu1j0t3, I started reading practical common lisp... and I am sort of getting disappointed with CL 20:12:08 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:12:35 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:13:05 -!- stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:21 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:19 tuubow [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-03.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:19:04 qu1j0t3, are you reading any ? 20:21:26 stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:21:44 choas [~lars@p5795C0A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:26 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 20:32:32 cswords_ [~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:55 -!- cswords [~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:36:29 phao: sicp, and dipping into some of the others like Anatomy of Lisp 20:36:51 phao: and functional prog texts like Henderson, ML for Working Programmer, Applicative High Order Programming, and such 20:37:07 phao: not very organised atm. firstly i need to read sicp. 20:37:11 Higher Order Perl 20:37:43 HOP seems nice LeoNerd 20:37:44 I wanna learn it. 20:37:53 I independently seem to have reinvented portions of it :) 20:37:57 read it* 20:38:00 in the era of perl6 it may not be a good ivnestment though. 20:38:25 Perl6 is a different langauge to Perl5. 20:38:33 They're siblings, not replacements 20:38:35 yes, which is what i mean... 20:39:03 there are probably better routes to learn FP than HOP for a beginner 20:39:04 LeoNerd: Like R6RS and R5RS? ;-) 20:39:11 qu1j0t3: perl 6 will kill perl 5 in the same way python 3 killed python 2 20:39:13 I don't know the Schemes enough to comment 20:39:16 ijp: Lol. 20:39:18 qu1j0t3, I like these books for the ideas 20:39:18 not for the languages 20:39:19 The only languages I actually like are C and scheme 20:39:19 I never actually used smalltalk, haskell or ML, but these sounds cool too. 20:39:20 (I used haskell, but very little) 20:39:48 what do you like about C? 20:39:50 Perl6 is about 3 of the original core Perl5 people going off to experiment with a new language. Perl5 continues to be developed and maintained and so on... 20:39:55 LeoNerd: yes 20:39:58 qu1j0t3, I am no expert, but I'd hope I left the beginner's area already 20:40:03 ijp: http://twitter.com/cky944/status/154607410726711296 20:40:06 phao: in FP? 20:40:09 phao: or in general 20:40:10 It's unfortunate they picked the same name, but there's not much we can do about that now. :P 20:40:40 cky: depends on whether or not you consider (set-difference r5rs r6rs) to be significant 20:40:51 it isn't really that big IIRC 20:41:27 cky: tweet is very true 20:41:31 :-) 20:41:53 I read the R6 chapter on changes since R5 last night. 20:42:04 A few bits were taken away, which is useful for me, 'cause it means I don't have to implement those bits of R5 :) 20:42:13 qu1j0t3, FP 20:42:14 but even in FP, there are lots idk 20:42:17 woohoo, It works! 20:42:25 some like transcript-on and transcript-off will be missed by no-one 20:42:27 sorry wrong channel 20:42:47 rudybot: cdidd is right, nothing works round here 20:42:48 ijp: heh, 0.03sec here for that one 20:42:57 and I am not so much into pure FP, but more into a mix of FP and procedural programming, which is the sort of stuff you'd see in SICP 20:43:02 qu1j0t3, I think C has its place -- it's small, and for its original intention, it's actually very good. 20:43:05 Yah; those transcript ones specifically were annoying me :P 20:43:19 IIRC it also constrains soem of the things R5 leaves as "unspecified" 20:43:24 phao: wat? SICP is pure functional for at least half the book 20:43:27 qu1j0t3, sometimes, I wanna see how computers or some OS works, nothing better than to try some stuff in C. 20:43:38 iip less than half 20:43:44 SICP doesn't even mention set! until quite late in proceedings 20:43:47 chapter 1 and 2 only I think. 20:43:54 'cause it massively complicates things 20:44:26 phao: even once side effects are introduced they hardly predominate 20:44:58 ijp, =) yeah 20:44:58 but it is still a mix. 20:45:13 I don't think it's a 50/50 (thanks god it isn't) 20:46:44 re: transcript-on/off, they did keep them out of R7 right? 20:46:46 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 20:46:46 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:46:46 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 20:46:49 FP is much more present, but there is a procedural part. What I like is that they accept that. Some people think that everything should be done in functional programming, while in practice that's not a good idea. It's good to see this mix to realize that some things are better left procedural (and that some others cannot be made w/o procedural programming). 20:47:20 qu1j0t3, don't you like C? 20:47:29 I treat FP much like anything else. It's a useful thing to know about, but don't treat it as an all-encompassing end goal 20:47:44 IMHO the best things around are dirty combinations of theoretical ideals. 20:48:23 LeoNerd, =) yeah, it's like "don't do with FP what java does with 'oop'". 20:48:29 Yah.. exactly. 20:48:53 even haskell has some procedural-like mechanisms I think. 20:48:54 what does that even mean? 20:48:54 afaik (not even 10% sure though), ml has assignment 20:49:00 I'm finding I like Scheme much for the same reasons as I like Perl. It _has_ FP, it has procedural/side effects. It has objects. It has all these styles and uses each where it is best, without forbidding other things 20:49:31 ijp, I meant "do not force FP-only" 20:49:41 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:50:24 pothos_ [~pothos@114-36-231-66.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:50:46 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:51:16 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:52:15 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-238-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:52:43 *cky* is blah about C. :-P @phao 20:53:03 *ijp* too, but he is an unashamed functional puritan 20:53:08 :-D 20:53:28 -!- pothos_ [~pothos@114-36-231-66.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:32 Thankfully, that is very compatible with Guile's design philosophy, which in the last couple of years had been to move as much C code to Scheme as possible. :-) 20:53:47 pothos [~pothos@114-36-231-66.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:54:34 I recently moved a few more of my Perl-native functions up to Scheme.. 20:54:50 still working on number->string and vv., I think I might specialcase the decimal ones for speed in the interpreter though 20:55:31 phao: C doesn't even have closures! 20:55:48 phao: Of course, C isn't designed to model that sort of thing, so totally understable. 20:56:33 phao: As someone who's done a lot of C programming, I would say that C is definitely not in my list of favourite languages. 20:56:36 C doesn't have anything that requires the runtime to track the lifetime of objects, more's the point 20:56:44 LeoNerd: That too. 20:56:49 No "unlimited extent". 20:56:51 I find this a good thing 20:56:58 It makes it very easy to -implement- a C system. 20:57:04 C is the language you write other languages in. 20:57:11 That is true (re ease of implementation). 20:57:16 You then write your applications in those. 20:57:27 When I wrote a compiler, I did in Scheme->asm 20:57:27 bigfg [~b_fin_g@r186-48-219-60.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 20:57:32 rudybot: look ma, no C 20:57:33 ijp: anything really performance-critical gets implemented in C++. Lisp is glue. 20:57:35 ijp: That's how I want to do it. 20:58:03 I wouldn't do Scheme->ASM if only for not being bothered to hack about with ELF and CPU architectures 20:58:05 ijp: Didja know, MMIX has built-in support for MV? :-D 20:58:17 ijp: I want to write a Scheme implementation for MMIX for that reason alone. :-P 20:58:31 Actually what I would like is a language -less- powerful than C, even easier to implement... which we'd use as a target for high-level language compilers 20:58:47 ijp: (Even though the instruction set I'm most familiar with is x86.) 20:58:52 LeoNerd: yeah, I know, but it was easier than dealing with C, and I wasn't up for learning about C-- or similar 20:58:54 So it can do all the really boring things like register colouring and SSA and so on 20:59:17 ijp: I'd just really hate to have to write code that was CPU-arch. specific, is all. 20:59:34 I know x86 will be with us for all eternity, and more's the pity... but it woudl be nice to pretend for a moment that it wasn't. :) 20:59:35 yeah, that sucked, and you give up all the compiler optimisations gcc can already do 21:00:02 Eh.. a lot of gcc's optimsations are about detecting the clever trickery human C programmers performed. 21:00:16 Machine-generated C output from an HLL compiler can usually apply its own trickery 21:00:36 I know, but I trust the gcc guys to be smarter than I am 21:00:54 Well, yah. This is why I want a less-than-C language. 21:01:04 So the compiler has to put less effort in to finding the places it can optimise 21:01:08 -!- bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-48-226-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:03:00 phao: i was just wondering what you liked about it 21:03:29 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@p5B3D288B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:09:30 cky, do you or don't you like C? 21:10:12 gener1c [~gener1c@unaffiliated/gener1c] has joined #scheme 21:10:14 hey 21:11:30 phao: I know how to write C; I have done it for many years. I know how to maintain programs written in C, but I have no desire to start any new projects in C. 21:11:50 kuribas [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 21:12:32 phao: If I have to use an unmanaged language, I prefer to use C++. But I vastly prefer managed languages. 21:12:32 cky: pretty much where i'm at. 21:12:39 qu1j0t3: *nods* 21:12:46 Eeeek.. no... 21:12:55 ticking [~janpaulbu@p5B3D288B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:57 C, annoyingly unmanaged though it is, you at least know where you are with C. 21:13:00 (except for the c++ part) 21:13:19 "Here, have a pointer. It points somewhere, who knows.. I thought you were looking after this?" 21:13:21 LeoNerd: yes, but i'm mostly over it. the idea of starting a C program does not excite me. 21:13:36 LeoNerd: on this, I am with cky. 21:13:48 C++... who knows? You call a + b and have your runtime explode later because it turns out a's type had + as an overloaded operator 21:14:08 LeoNerd: Skilled C++ programmers know how to do these things sanely. 21:14:21 LeoNerd: I've programmed C++ professionally for several years and know how to use it sanely. 21:14:46 Yeah... but that mostly comes down to "Here's the ~50% of C++ you shouldn't use". 21:14:51 LeoNerd: It's true that C++ gives you more rope to hang yourself with. That doesn't mean that C++ is a bad language per se. 21:14:54 unmanaged? 21:15:09 phao: Unmanaged languages give you direct access to the memory. 21:15:14 phao: Managed languages do not. 21:15:21 phao: "you have to free() stuff", basically 21:15:24 malloc and free do a little management behind the scenes, but it's not really relevant 21:15:39 cky, managed == gc`ed? 21:15:49 phao: Not necessarily, though most managed languages are GC'd. 21:15:58 phao: C and C++ can run in a GC'd environment, but that doesn't make them managed. 21:16:00 Not -necessarily-. E.g. Perl is refcounted, but still considered "managed" 21:16:00 hmm ok 21:17:28 ins't the GC something that manages memory for you? 21:17:28 isn't * 21:17:40 Hrm... yes and no 21:17:54 That's not what "managed" means. Managed means that objects are allocated for you, and you usually don't control such things. 21:18:02 The GC is the part that means your program doesn't consume ever-growing amounts of actual memory when it doesn't need to. 21:18:17 Most managed languages don't give you direct access to pointers, for example. 21:18:24 (C# has an unsafe mode that gives you pointers.) 21:18:34 Given an arbitrary amount of RAM, you don't -need- the GC at all, you could just keep allocating more memory forever more, and the program will still run exactly the same 21:18:56 -!- metasyntax|work [~taylor@fw-its-kt209a-2.dyn.ipfw.edu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat [quit]] 21:19:00 who needs memory? If it can't fit in your registers, it's not worth having 21:19:10 rudybot: you with me? 21:19:10 ijp: raw video isn't a big deal for me, but what is a big deal is low noise and really good af, which canon hasn't been able to do better than nikon 21:19:16 For example, in C++, you can specify that an object be constructed at a specific address ("placement new"). Managed languages usually won't give you that level of control. 21:19:24 I call SparcV9! It has a decent amoutn of registers :) Hah, take that x86! 21:19:37 LeoNerd: MMIX has 256 registers. 21:19:54 Yes but (IIRC) nobody's ever built MMIX on real silicon :P 21:20:09 So? Someone has designed an MMIX FPGA. 21:20:20 Ooh.. shockingly close 21:20:35 :-) 21:20:50 Anyway, I was going home like.. an hour ago. 21:20:54 Have fun! 21:20:56 Then someone said something I just /had/ to reply to 21:21:17 you complain about x86, but it's kinda fun to juggle those registers around 21:21:23 ijp: >_< 21:22:00 Yes, because it's fun to work on an architecture where you can do integer division provided the numerator is in EAX 21:22:18 .. or hardware repeat counts.. or .. well, all sorts. 21:22:46 LeoNerd: It's okay, most people understand why RISC architectures are better. :-) 21:22:57 s/architectures/instruction sets/ 21:23:01 hey, I never said x86 wasn't brain dead 21:23:02 I quite like the 1ISC. No operators, just operands. 21:23:12 All the interesting hardware is just mapped registers. 21:23:27 .oO(I can't believe I'd say this. In my teenage, I was a total x86 zealot. What, x86 flawed?! Hell no!) 21:23:27 i see alot of stuff that is scheme in the ubuntu package manager, if im just starting do i take plt-scheme or mit-scheme or maybe something else? 21:23:46 gener1c: There are lots of Racket advocates in this channel. It's a safe first choice. 21:23:54 goto? well, that's just a MOV into PC. add? Sure, put the operands in the ALU's input ports, take your result here... 21:23:54 gener1c: Of course, all the other ones are awesome too. :-) 21:24:10 gener1c, chicken 21:24:10 an (old) guile may already be installed... 21:24:10 so plt it is 21:24:17 rep! :) 21:24:22 (no, I am not cursing you) 21:24:24 *LeoNerd* runs away, it really is hometime... 21:24:31 LeoNerd: o/ 21:24:40 phao: yeah i understood you are telling me not to take the beef :) 21:24:46 gener1c: Lol. 21:24:53 gener1c: apt-get install chicken-bin 21:25:40 k thanks 21:26:05 rudybot: later tell LeoNerd "and when you want to be really masochistic you only use EAX ECX & EDX" 21:26:06 minion: memo for LeoNerd: ijp told me to tell you: "and when you want to be really masochistic you only use EAX ECX & EDX" 21:26:15 rudybot: bug 21:26:15 ijp: Yes, I know I suck: https://github.com/offby1/rudybot/issues 21:26:51 bots these days, too lazy for their own good 21:27:26 rudybot: you're lucky there is no competition in the market, or you'd be outta here 21:27:27 ijp: You better tell the SIS to keep outta sight -- 'cause I know they been taking pictures of me in ultra-violet light. 21:27:35 =) 21:27:35 chicken has eggs gener1c 21:27:36 cky, I knew nothing of these things you said 21:27:36 I wish I knew more of this stuff. 21:27:36 :) 21:27:38 cky, most books I read are really interesting, with nice ideas, but a lot theoretical. 21:27:53 phao: Chat more on #stackoverflow. Lots of assembly programmers there. :-) 21:28:03 so chicken is just a compiler? 21:28:04 phao: Daeken and I, especially, have lots of assembly experience. :-P 21:28:40 Anyway, I thought laziness was a virtua. 21:28:54 *offby1* kicks rudybot under the table 21:28:56 "virtue". 21:29:29 Sometimes, I get an insight about something practical w/o no one teaching me, but that is rare. I wish I knew more books focused on the practical stuff. 21:29:29 gener1c, afaik, the best one. 21:29:29 gener1c, it's also an interpreter. 21:29:43 nice so i can go interactive :) 21:30:29 tuubow_ [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:30:31 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-03.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:32 gener1c, yeah 21:30:33 I don't do that very much myself. 21:30:33 I don't see how staying in a REPL helps too much 21:30:33 I prefer writing code in a text-file and tell the interpreter to run it 21:30:33 or have some compile&run command 21:30:42 but some people just love a repl =) 21:30:48 csi 21:30:49 wooy 21:30:51 woot 21:31:24 well im just starting so keeping the code would be useless i presume 21:31:33 cky, hehe I don't enjoy chatting much about this stuff... I wanted some books, sites, with content, so I could study. 21:31:33 I really like programming, but talking about it is not something I like so much. 21:32:00 phao: Fair enough. :-P 21:33:01 whats the standard sicp suffix ? 21:33:07 for files 21:33:14 most people use .scm 21:33:48 thank you 21:34:32 gener1c, =) 21:34:32 have one test.scm 21:34:32 and keep re-writing it hehehe 21:34:32 it's not about keeping the code or not, for me. It's just that writing in a text editor is better than writing in a repl. 21:34:33 chicken lets you have a better command line interface though... Once you're ready, check out the read-line egg, and how to install it, and how you can use it to get a metter CLI. 21:34:44 no clue, but .ss and .scm are two common extensions for scheme files. 21:34:44 I like .ss better, but some editors don't recognize it. 21:34:44 (but do for .scm) 21:34:45 "(but do for .scm)" that looks like some quadratic loop form 21:34:45 *phao* hides 21:35:10 ijp: obviously it'd be easy for me to nix the feature. But it'd be more fun to implement it ... any ideas? 21:35:25 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 21:35:56 its ok i use vim 21:36:03 *gener1c* hides 21:36:19 hehe 21:36:35 I used to use vim on linux too 21:36:40 -!- tuubow_ [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:45 *jcowan* uses "ex" 21:36:52 then I went to kate 21:36:52 never was much of an EMACS guy 21:36:52 I am windows now, using notepad++ 21:36:53 yeah but emacs was written in lisp 21:37:05 offby1: for now, a snarky comment would suffice :) 21:37:08 kate has a good region (enclosed by parenthesis) highlight 21:37:11 jcowan, ex and cat? =) 21:37:20 Not usually cat, no. 21:37:43 gener1c, it has parts in lisp I think, but afaik, its core is still in C. 21:37:50 i use a butterfly 21:37:58 and.. there are many "emacs" 21:37:59 ohh... ok 21:38:08 offby1: I don't think 'later tell' would be difficult to implement, but I'd need to look at rudybots code 21:38:31 there is xemacs, gnu emacs, ... I was talking about gnuemacs 21:39:29 although, it would require him to be more proactive than just waiting for people to talk to him 21:39:35 cky, do you know some website pointing out interesting stuff about this? 21:40:03 wat 21:40:05 tuubow [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-03.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:40:07 it compiles to a c file 21:43:24 solved it :) 21:43:50 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-116-10.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:57 i use cat sometimes to write files. 21:44:03 i am starting to like this chicken ( the interpreter is not that usable ) 21:44:30 ijp: I've pushed a TODO with some vague ideas. 21:45:12 gener1c, the interpreter is too 21:45:21 csi -bq 21:45:29 should read and execute the file, then quit 21:45:50 amazing 21:45:52 thanks 21:46:04 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-149-69.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 21:46:19 if you intend to use it, stay also on #chicken 21:46:29 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:40 done 21:46:46 thanks alot 21:47:24 gener1c, lots of people there use chicken/scheme for professional programming (also here). 21:47:41 gener1c, if you are into java struff, there are scheme implementations that run on the top of the jvm 21:48:21 letting you use whatever is in there... there are some advantages for interoperability with .class, but I never used those things 21:49:27 gener1c, check sisc (#sisc) 21:49:34 for that sort of thing 21:50:11 chicken had some things related to java interoperability, I remember reading about it... mario-goulart told me, but I don't quite remember what it was really about, if it was done or not, much less how to use it 21:50:54 Probably cvjm (chicken virtual java machine) 21:51:31 A static java bytecode -> scheme compiler, IIRC. 21:51:51 it compiled bytecode to scheme? seriously? 21:52:14 IIRC, yes. 21:52:19 cool stuff. 22:00:57 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 22:07:29 albert-sicp [~albert-si@108-205-152-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:21:50 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:07 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@p5B3D288B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:30:56 rudybot: yo? 22:30:56 LeoNerd: btw a nice japanese whiskey is "yoichi" (single-malt; you can get the 12-yo in convenience stores here!) 22:33:14 rudybot: at last, something useful from you. 22:33:14 qu1j0t3: had a dude, `senior sysadmin' he was called, that set it up at work,going over just about everyones head, and getting the boss to love him... 22:33:32 Eh.. I've never been much a fan of whiskey 22:37:38 albert-s_ [~albert-si@108-205-152-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:37:38 Okay, the news: the Steering Committee has okayed launching the formal-comment process for R7RS-small. Hopefully things will be set up when Alex gets back home, in about two weeks. The comment period will run for 4 months. 22:37:39 -!- albert-sicp [~albert-si@108-205-152-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:42 whoo 22:39:43 That said, people are encouraged (at least by me) to comment informally first, and only file formal comments if they are still unhappy. 22:40:05 informal comments should go to scheme-reports at scheme-reports dot org. 22:40:26 After that we'll issue the final draft and Schemers get to vote for ratification. 22:40:48 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:42:00 jcowan: how about "it's ridiculous to provide 18 division operators and not `filter'" 22:42:21 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:42:37 are there actually 18 division operators, or is this a java joke? 22:42:48 no joke 22:42:58 elly: there are actually 18 division operators in the proposed "small" language 22:43:12 what do they all do? 22:43:17 and there is actually no provided `filter' 22:43:25 elly: very subtly different things 22:43:30 divide hopefully 22:43:43 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:44:06 There are six integer-division functions, and three procedures for each, returning the quotient, the remainder, and both. 22:44:20 samth: I can take informal comments here, yes. 22:44:31 surely you can build the first and second straightforwardly using compose and fst/snd? 22:45:16 Actually the "both" functions return multiple values, but yes in principle. 22:45:42 samth: Why do you pick filter out of the entire SRFI 1 package? (Note that SRFI 1 will be provided as a standard package of R7RS-large.) 22:46:34 jcowan: i do wonder why you make such definitive statments about the future of a currently-disbanded working group 22:46:49 and because filter is the procedure most egregiously missing 22:46:53 possible rationale: filter, map, and fold are the most obviously useful, but there are two folds, and map is already provided? 22:47:17 I still say filter and map are the same function 22:47:34 LeoNerd: neither one is exprssible with the other 22:47:46 clearly the answer is to just provide fold-right :P 22:47:48 you just need a way to return MVs from the map function, then map returns (proc x) and filter returns (if (pred x) (values x) (values)) 22:47:54 samth: It is not disbanded, only suspended for lack of cycles. It will resume work, hopefully with additional members, when WG1 is done voting. 22:48:01 samth: They are both triviall map-values 22:48:20 do any current implementations of map work like that? 22:48:23 LeoNerd: yes, they're both instances of `filter-map' 22:48:26 And I make a definite statement because SRFI 1 already voted that way. 22:48:32 and also both instances of `fold' 22:48:36 s/SRFI 1/WG2 22:48:37 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:48:41 and also both recursive functions 22:48:42 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:49:17 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-149-69.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50:16 jcowan: how would you describe the status of bills not-yet submitted to congress, but agreed to among their authors? 22:50:49 drwho [~drwho@152-123-174-206.gci.net] has joined #scheme 22:52:05 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-92.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:52:53 "payment-pending," presumably 22:53:05 turbofail: :) 22:54:32 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-116.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:54:49 samth: Not an appropriate comparison. It's true that nothing is carved in stone until the ratification vote, but that's for ratification (pass/fail) of the whole standard, not of particular points. 22:55:31 So to be very precise: "SRFI 1 will be a package of R7RS-large, unless someone in WG2 proposes its removal and that vote passes, provided that R7RS-large is ratified at all." 22:55:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has joined #scheme 22:56:00 -!- choas [~lars@p5795C0A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:56:36 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:01:35 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 23:07:16 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:09:20 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE5.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 23:09:41 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:10:27 -!- bweaver [~bweaver@host-68-169-158-230.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:10:56 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-149-69.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 23:11:09 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:22:02 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 23:30:03 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:32:37 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-03.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:33:48 -!- fizzie [fis@unaffiliated/fizzie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:35:49 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:36:03 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #scheme 23:37:10 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 23:37:28 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:29 -!- mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:45:29 snorble [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 23:45:37 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-74-98-32-113.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:47:47 githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:53:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:59:16 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]