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Thanks. 03:56:06 Is it possible to use 'filter' in chicken? 03:57:37 Or should I just write my own filter function? 03:58:05 that shouldn't be necessary 03:58:39 riverswain [~avery@host-74-211-17-251.beyondbb.com] has joined #scheme 03:59:22 I'm trying to do something like (filter even? '(234 02 2393)) - which works in MIT-Scheme. In Chicken I just get "unbound variable: filter". 04:03:30 zacharydenton: check out srfi-1 04:04:03 zacharydenton: http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Unit%20srfi-1#filtering-partitioning 04:10:18 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:11:12 jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:11:55 Does anyone have references on guardians? Search results are swamped by The Guardian, legal guardians, etc. 04:12:50 other than the original paper? probably only the docs for chez/ikarus/guile 04:13:56 The original paper would be fine. 04:14:28 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/guardians-pldi93.pdf 04:15:12 haus [haus@reaver.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #scheme 04:16:05 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 04:19:35 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:20:17 apparently librep has them too http://librep.sourceforge.net/librep-manual.html#Guardians 04:20:49 Thanks. 04:20:59 I just added rep to my list of test Schemes, though it is a bit anomalous 04:21:37 yeah I'm not sure what I'd classify rep as 04:23:33 Scheme with old Lisp standard identifiers, I'd say. It began as a sort of Emacs Lisp, but is now a 1-Lisp with lexical scope. 04:25:35 I wonder how it's unwind-protect integrates with it's continuations 04:25:43 s/it's/its/g 04:28:17 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:33:57 icrazyhack [~horieyui@183.93.198.19] has joined #scheme 04:49:44 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 04:50:09 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:50:46 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:52:11 dous_ [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 04:53:44 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:56:04 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:57:24 sureaint [~mortimer@pool-71-246-112-82.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:02:26 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:04:04 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #scheme 05:10:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-181.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:15:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:26:50 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:28:22 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 05:32:00 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 05:42:43 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:51:32 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:52:53 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #scheme 06:03:21 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:07:22 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #scheme 06:07:33 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 06:07:33 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 06:24:19 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:38:14 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:38:29 mister_m [~mattosaur@216-80-123-91.c3-0.drb-ubr1.chi-drb.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:40:10 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 06:40:42 I just saw an iterative algorithm for a factorial written recursively 06:40:53 blew my mind 06:43:59 mister_m: ...is that even hard? :-P 06:44:32 rudybot: (define (factorial n) (let loop ((prod 1) (n n)) (if (zero? n) prod (loop (* prod n) (sub1 n))))) 06:44:32 cky: Done. 06:44:36 rudybot: (factorial 6) 06:44:36 cky: ; Value: 720 06:45:24 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:46:40 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 06:52:08 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:52:50 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@183.93.198.19] has quit [Read 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error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03:00 in sexp_expt_op 07:03:15 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:05:09 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:05:17 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:06:20 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 07:10:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-181.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:10 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:11:35 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:13:07 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 07:13:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18:25 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19:39 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 07:25:55 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:26:18 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 07:27:26 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:28:04 how could I write a function to compute a logarithm 07:30:03 how precise do you want it? 07:30:37 haus: within .0001 say 07:31:40 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:32:39 here's a general algorithm: http://www.daniweb.com/software-development/computer-science/threads/290935 07:32:39 http://tinyurl.com/6rsvmdl 07:32:54 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 07:34:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:35:01 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:35:18 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:38:14 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:39:39 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 07:45:52 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] 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[~masm@bl16-198-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:58:36 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 10:59:50 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 11:05:15 rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 11:05:52 -!- dous_ [~dous@203.116.251.236] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:04 fgudin [~fgudin@odin.sdf-eu.org] has joined #scheme 11:14:38 -!- fgudin [~fgudin@odin.sdf-eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 11:14:50 fgudin [~fgudin@odin.sdf-eu.org] has joined #scheme 11:34:21 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 11:41:48 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:09:20 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 12:11:30 rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 12:13:08 -!- confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:15:32 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #scheme 12:21:26 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:23:20 LeoNerd [~leo@cel.leonerd.org.uk] has joined #scheme 12:29:23 *LeoNerd* is looking for a macro to implement 'case' 12:29:29 It looks nontrivial 12:30:18 I think I can quite easily turn case into a let (of the value), containing a cond of memv calls. But the trouble then becomes the 'else' at the end 12:31:40 chicken has a case with these semantics: http://api.call-cc.org/doc/scheme/case 12:32:00 see also r5rs section 7.3 12:32:04 Ya.. that's just R5RS quoted :) 12:32:07 which has an example implementation 12:32:21 Hrm... R5 has a sample implementation? Id din't find it 12:33:30 Ooohyes :) 12:34:11 OK never mind, somehow I managed to miss that 12:37:31 chick chicadee 12:42:05 zlszk [~user@116.114.210.169] has joined #scheme 12:42:20 how to stop mit-scheme ? 12:42:46 What have you tried? 12:43:24 *add^_* is not using mit-scheme so he'd just guess (quit) or (exit) 12:44:04 Or depending on what you mean with "stop", it could be CTRL-C too.. 12:44:14 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 12:44:18 zlszk: ? 12:44:25 rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 12:44:54 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 12:45:09 add^_: i run a funtion and it doesn't stop... 12:45:14 or C-g 12:45:27 Weird. 12:45:42 Try what wingo says, he's knows more than I do. 12:45:46 :-) 12:45:56 C-g doesm't work 12:46:43 C-c C-c should work though... 12:46:46 i run mit-scheme in with emacs 12:46:58 add^_: not the case, i don't know mit-scheme at all unfortunately 12:47:26 oh ok thank you that's it ~.~ 12:47:33 wingo, oh well :-) You know more guile than me that's for sure :-) 12:47:43 C-c C-c ? 12:47:47 yeah 12:48:01 Ah ok :-) 12:48:05 Glad we could help. 12:48:16 i run it in emacs so i forget this 12:48:31 thank you ! 12:48:36 :-) 12:49:18 One step closer to completion ;-) 12:51:14 i learn sicp and it's my first time learn lisp :-) 12:55:37 :-) 12:55:53 You have an awesome road ahead of you :-) 12:58:13 add^_: no, i learn program 3 years and now i realized i learn nothing so i try another way to learn, and my english is poor... 12:58:57 At least your trying :-) 12:59:39 I've been doing pretty much the same really, but now, I got to go :-/ 12:59:46 Cya all 12:59:49 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 13:00:08 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:00:31 tupi [~david@139.82.89.98] has joined #scheme 13:13:36 -!- haus [haus@reaver.cat.pdx.edu] has left #scheme 13:18:01 -!- euccastro [~es@139.Red-83-40-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:41 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 13:31:16 jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has joined #scheme 13:36:55 confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:42:47 metasyntax|work [~taylor@fw-its-kt209a-2.dyn.ipfw.edu] has joined #scheme 13:43:40 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:48:50 -!- zlszk [~user@116.114.210.169] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:53:06 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-123.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:53:34 jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has joined #scheme 13:53:40 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:04:23 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04:38 -!- fbs [fbs@fsf/member/fbs] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:05:12 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 14:12:17 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:25:43 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 14:34:00 -!- _pa_ [~pa@static-213-115-28-4.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: _pa_] 14:40:29 So I thought up what I thought was quite a cute trick this morning, only being a relative newcomer I have no idea if it's actually an old idea or what. 14:41:16 My idea is to make (cons head EXPR) into a tail-call on EXPR, by setting up a special continuation in the interpreter, that does set-cdr! then yields the original cons cell. The idea being this can easily tail-call into itself, by accumulating more and more of the cdr chain before eventually returning 14:41:47 This would allow you to write map/filter/etc.. naively as a (cons head (loop ...)) iteration while still being tail-recursive and not eating stack space 14:48:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:03:44 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:07:08 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-d9bfdb93.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:07:17 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77bb62.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 15:10:36 wingo [~wingo@158.pool80-102-159.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 15:14:12 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77bb62.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:16:20 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d066b81.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 15:16:50 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 15:23:04 -!- ijp [~user@host109-158-226-141.range109-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:05 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:32:31 copumpkin [~copumpkin@17.45.135.36] has joined #scheme 15:32:33 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@17.45.135.36] has quit [Changing host] 15:32:33 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:40:07 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:42:49 -!- confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:44:02 fbs [fbs@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-cgbqisljldykifla] has joined #scheme 15:44:02 -!- fbs [fbs@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-cgbqisljldykifla] has quit [Changing host] 15:44:02 fbs [fbs@fsf/member/fbs] has joined #scheme 15:47:05 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:47:59 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-172.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:34 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 15:56:42 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:56:49 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:59:07 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:00:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 16:02:29 snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-172.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 16:05:52 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-92b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:02 SHODAN [~shozan@c-92b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:06:29 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:07:00 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-172.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:08:32 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 16:08:52 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:10:40 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:12:09 wingo_ [~wingo@90.163.36.89] has joined #scheme 16:15:14 -!- wingo [~wingo@158.pool80-102-159.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:59 Wow it really is quiet in here. Nobody has any comment at all about my cons tail recusion? 16:19:42 snorble [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 16:22:24 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 16:22:36 -!- wingo_ is now known as wingo 16:25:47 LeoNerd, what you described sounds like a kind of CPS conversion 16:26:52 Righty... 16:27:48 LeoNerd: what usually happens is that the stack space grows at the same rate as the data structure that you use to track what you're not putting in stack space 16:28:34 Yesyes... but in this case the stack doesn't need to grow 16:28:54 ijp [~user@host86-169-103-51.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 16:29:34 snizzo [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has joined #scheme 16:29:49 LeoNerd: Read up on TCMC (tail call modulo cons). 16:30:01 LeoNerd: I heard about it on this channel, and it's pretty much what you've described. 16:31:34 Ya.. I imagined it wouldn't be a new idea.. was jsut seeing what others thought of it, for naming and stuff 16:32:28 *LeoNerd* giggles at wikipedia 16:32:46 "Appel's method avoids making a large number of small trampoline bounces by occasionally jumping off the Empire State Building." 16:32:55 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:33:16 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-diavkkpentoxgnxa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:49 -!- snizzo [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:49 Heh.. the first hit for scheme "tail call modulo cons" is a document about XQuery :( 16:36:19 !! 16:36:19 It's also known as "tail recursion modulo cons", so search for that too. 16:37:13 Ah 16:37:27 Ah that looks much better 16:40:16 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 16:41:59 teurastaja [~chatzilla@modemcable168.103-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:42:36 Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@95.141.197.16] has joined #scheme 16:42:52 any good tutorial on using other calling schemes than call-by-value and their usefulness? 16:42:55 OK... So, Scheme (at least R5) doesn't require this, but would it be within spec to implement it anyway? 16:43:27 It strikes me a highly useful thing to add, 'cause otherwise people have to do all sorts of hackish tricks to make list-returning functions like map and filter 16:43:44 leonerd what was your question? 16:44:15 teurastaja: tail recursion modulo cons 16:44:39 (I shall have to start abbreviating to TRMC or else this will take all day to discuss :) ) 16:44:54 LeoNerd: there's a nice book called "Compiling with Continuations" that might interest you. 16:45:17 Is it available as a free-as-in-beer PDF? 16:45:42 I don't think so. Google for it without the quotes and you'll get other hits however. 16:46:14 Imean I'm generally happy with the idea as a concept, and how to implement it 16:46:24 Just mostly looking for opinions from Schemetypes as to its usefulness 16:46:39 I still dislike the accumulate-and-reverse style 16:46:54 whats the general idea of trmc? 16:46:58 it's relatively idiomatic at this point though 16:47:37 consing the car and then the tail as its cdr? 16:47:42 teurastaja: The idea is that you can turn (cons new-head (loop ....)) into a tail-call by constructing the new cons cell, tail-calling then set-cdr!ing later 16:48:03 oh destructiveness i see 16:48:07 So the usual idiom of list-returning functions to recurse with that form become tailrecursive 16:48:21 linear updates 16:48:59 and what is the problem at hand? 16:49:08 Just my curiosity 16:49:17 define a problem 16:49:21 that is how you learn 16:49:24 Wanting to gauge the general opinion of it. Whether people think it's a useful thing to have in a Scheme VM 16:50:05 most functional programmers will tell you "dodge side-effects if possible" 16:50:12 teurastaja: he's wanting someone to give him the go-ahead so he can do it without feeling like he's to blame :) 16:50:16 but if they are better... 16:51:10 Well, yes.. it allows the programmer to write code -as if- ignoring side-effects 16:51:28 why dont you just use stuff like append! or map-append! ? 16:51:41 srfi-1 16:51:58 Because then the implementation of map/filter/etc... -looks- like it has side-effects 16:52:21 srfi-1 has lengthy discussions on side-effects for optimizations 16:52:26 have you read it all? 16:52:48 I have not 16:52:50 -!- Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@95.141.197.16] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:52:54 he also speaks of reverse consing and stuff like this 16:53:12 then RTFM!! 16:53:14 lol7 16:53:16 Linky? :) 16:54:04 really, srfi-1 has most of your questions answered 16:54:15 its pretty much self-contained 16:54:25 Right... but what/where is this? 16:54:30 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 16:54:42 tips for implementors etf 16:54:44 *etc 16:56:07 http://bit.ly/zJq5YD 16:56:11 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvvnvnohenemyelc] has joined #scheme 16:57:38 got it? 16:57:44 teurastaja: HEHE 16:58:16 dont tell me you couldnt find it... 16:58:40 dont wry im not as pissed as i look 16:58:44 just woke up 16:59:00 feeling neutral 16:59:11 Hrmmm.... I've read the introduction and it doesn't say anything about TRMC 16:59:27 It talks about linear updates that destroy the input arguments, but that isn't what I'm intending here. 16:59:35 leonerd: why do you think i asked you what trmc was? 17:00:36 [CTRL]-f, type: side [Enter] 17:01:03 u dont mean using side-effects? 17:01:07 then i dont get it 17:01:24 I mean applying an optimisation in the -implementation- of the VM 17:01:32 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #scheme 17:01:41 put some code here 17:01:47 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:02:03 because its getting less clear 17:02:15 Er.. nontrivial 17:02:31 generalize your ideas] 17:02:33 The implementation would be.. hrm... maybe 100 or so lines in my VM. I'm not going to pastebin that now :) 17:02:43 NOW! 17:02:46 just kidding 17:03:00 cant you write pseudocode? 17:03:05 point to an example? 17:03:10 show something? 17:03:11 Sure. 17:03:31 Detect tail-call via cons, construct special continuations, store car, set up cont. that it stores to cdr then yields original cons cell 17:04:00 Detect second invocation of this by setting cdr to new cons cell, walking along. 17:04:00 btw i came here asking about calling by other things than by value and its usefulness 17:04:05 got no answers 17:04:05 ..? 17:04:11 I was discussing something unrelated. 17:05:21 i know 17:05:29 i wasnt asking to you 17:05:35 http://www.cs.unm.edu/~williams/cs491/three-imp.pdf 17:05:43 read the string-based model 17:05:48 the 3rd 17:06:08 the other models can be useful to know also 17:08:30 if you cant find an answer there then probably you should learn to use [CTRL]-f 17:08:32 This is quite a long paper.. anything in particular I should be looking at? 17:08:33 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 17:09:05 string-based model uses a vm i think 17:09:09 Read the word "model". That's the only word worth reading in that paper. 17:09:30 pjb, you dont like that paper? 17:09:31 I feel this is getting further offtopic from the point of my original question :) 17:09:48 teurastaja: I do. What I don't like is people not willing to read a paper in full. 17:09:54 My question was one largely of personal opinions: do people feel that it's essential/useful/harmful to have TRMC ? 17:10:28 pjb: still in the heap-based part and reading through] 17:11:41 leonerd: read the table of contents. this paper is full of implementation tricks and optimizations 17:11:59 its got lengthy discussions on this sort of questions 17:12:08 Ya.. I didn't want to read a paper. I wanted to discuss live with real people I can back-and-forth with 17:12:22 ...and you come to IRC for that? :-P 17:12:53 I came to #scheme on Freenode, yes. It seemed the best choice I could think of :) 17:13:14 leonerd: provide arguments 17:13:19 essential? obviously not, or every scheme would do it. Useful? maybe. Harmful? probably not actively 17:14:03 does anyone know of a scheme written in C--? 17:14:25 teurastaja: How about "I dislike manual set-cdr!'ing logic as it's subtle and hard to read, feels wrong, doesn't play with call/cc. I dislike accumulate backwards and reverse, because it's backwards and takes twice as long, I dislike naive cons-returning because it's not tail recursive." 17:15:05 there you go. dont use it 17:15:28 "I feel that naive cons-returning -looks- neatest if only we could find a way to have it implemented more efficiently. I believe I have thought up a way to implement it more efficiently." 17:15:40 LeoNerd: My comment was a joke, which is that IRC isn't very live or real-time. 17:15:47 Huh? 17:15:53 Surely that is an argument _to_ use it? 17:16:11 LeoNerd: Normally on IRC, when most of the regulars are out, you could be waiting several hours for a response. ;-) 17:16:31 cky: That's still orders of magnitude faster than anything else I can think of 17:17:00 Perhaps some code will help matters... 17:17:12 -!- neet [~user@ip-88-153-12-108.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:51 Hahahahaha. 17:18:12 leonerd: dont use it if you dont feel like you should. use it if you understand how the algorithm works and why its best 17:18:32 That's an unhelpful statement. one moment 17:19:16 its the most helpful statement i could give you and you dont realize it 17:20:24 if its not simple in your head, its gonna look awful in scheme 17:20:55 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:20:56 http://pastie.org/3238116 <== line 30 17:21:04 It is perfectly simple in my head. 17:21:23 I am asking HUMAN OPINIONS. Do people think this is a nice thing FOR THE VM to do, behind the back of the Scheme programmer? 17:21:41 dous_ [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 17:21:48 It's an extension of R5's tail-call guarantees, to also guarantee that (cons x EXPR) is a tail-call in EXPR 17:22:45 yeah thats probably how id write it 17:22:46 The idea -effectively- is that the implementation will do internally to the third piece of code, what the second piece of code does explicitly, but do so in a way that generally behaves nicer. Plus is hidden from the Scheme level of code so it remains readable 17:22:55 rudybot: your opinion is of no value here 17:22:56 ijp: I didn't see any. (But no, I don't do any kind of a delay between outputs.) 17:23:24 rudybot: answer his question 17:23:25 teurastaja: three or four airs of wings. He Multiplies His creatures according to 17:23:38 rudybot: really? 17:23:38 teurastaja: Is fortran still /really/ in use 17:23:38 at last, something relevant and useful. 17:23:44 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:52 rudybot: yes it is 17:23:52 teurastaja: so it doesnt break older setups one would assume... 17:24:17 JoelMcCracken [~user@c-24-3-189-214.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:24:34 teurastaja: So my question: Is it, /in your personal opinion/, justified for the implementation to perform TRMC in order to allow end-user programmers to write code in the third form, rather than having to resort to either of the first two? 17:25:06 rudybot: fortran has nice mathematical facilities that i dont see elsewhere but are useful in scheme like arrays from vectors 17:25:06 teurastaja: copumpkin, I like, or rather am terrified by, the this excerpt from the Wikipedia page on NoSQL, and in particular the second sentence: `Some NoSQL advocates promote very simple interfaces such as associative arrays or key-value pairs. Other system such as Native XML databases promote support of the XQuery standard.' 17:27:03 rudybot: your randomness is refreshing 17:27:03 teurastaja: Hi guys. I would like to know how to fix this indentation thing: http://pastebin.com/m31313542 , SOMETHING is a macro with its semicolon, the probleme is that the "public:" will be badly indented, it is still detected as "topmost-intro-cont" instead of "access-label" 17:28:12 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 17:29:16 Hrm.. General silence all round again :) 17:29:16 Perhaps nobody actually has any opinions.. :( 17:30:44 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:32:22 euccastro [~es@139.Red-83-40-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:32:43 -!- euccastro [~es@139.Red-83-40-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:00 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:51 LeoNerd: I told you, this is IRC. And no, I don't have time to think about anything at the moment, too many things going on. 17:37:07 :) 17:37:08 Hopefully others here will have some feedback. :-D 17:38:14 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:40:16 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 17:51:13 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-fladneyahplxnama] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:03 samth [~samth@129.10.177.87] has joined #scheme 17:55:54 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 17:56:26 -!- samth [~samth@129.10.177.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:01:04 -!- teurastaja [~chatzilla@modemcable168.103-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:03:38 sureaint [~mortimer@65-86-91-130.client.dsl.net] has joined #scheme 18:05:30 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:07:44 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:11:12 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:17:57 Zeus, the world is so much better in 8 colors. I flirted briefly with TERM=xterm-256color, and `emacs -nw' looked like a garish piece-of-shit; and IRSSI omitted all crunch/zaps. 18:19:16 256 colour support in terminals is a bit broken :( 18:19:16 Thomas Dickey messed it up 18:19:48 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:29 Octochromatism for the win! Fuck diakosia-pentekonta-hexa-chromatism! 18:21:53 Hehe 18:22:09 I dunno.. I quite like 16, under the presumption that bold creates a "brighter" version of normal 18:22:14 LeoNerd: The author of xterm? 18:22:21 Yes 18:22:27 He misread the spec, mistaking a : for a ; 18:22:53 http://leonerds-code.blogspot.com/2011/04/extended-colour-support-terminals-and.html <== I wrote about it here 18:22:53 http://tinyurl.com/442o4df 18:23:04 The world is -basically- stuck like that now though. I think it sucks :( 18:25:07 githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:27:18 snizzo [~quassel@host71-235-dynamic.30-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:27:22 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 18:27:24 LeoNerd: Damn; reminds me, for some reason, of the so-called "metrix mixup": . 18:27:56 Though the colon--semi-colon metathesis is more tragic, I'd argue; and a source of daily grief. 18:28:05 I'm just waiting for the next metric/imperial fuck up. 18:28:14 It's why irssi implements 256 colours as flashing 18:28:16 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Client Quit] 18:28:17 Note the SGR 5 :) 18:28:24 I pulled out that example for a specific reason 18:28:29 pjb: it's about four kilogram-miles away. 18:28:53 qu1j0t3: I'm a fan of the barn-parsec myself, as a unit of measure :) 18:29:11 LeoNerd: :) 18:29:55 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:48 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:31:53 *klutometis* vows to remember that his commute to work is 1.6 pico-parsecs; and to use the same when proposing liberal WFHs. 18:32:33 jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has joined #scheme 18:32:48 mister_m [~mattosaur@2620:0:2250:2104:223:5aff:fe7e:cc97] has joined #scheme 18:33:25 what makes a WFH liberal? 18:37:27 elly: The quantity of WFHs can be liberal; but, in general, I consider ass-time fetishism to be conservative. 18:38:11 yes 18:38:58 I tend to work the hours I feel effective working and no more or less 18:39:08 but also I can do my whole job remotely, so 18:39:20 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:23 elly: That's good and natural, I think; it's a form of self-knowledge. Faux-productivity is degenerate. 18:40:40 githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:42:05 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:43:43 it is considered good form around here :P 18:44:12 time you spend sitting in the office past your daily limit is wasted by everyone 18:45:18 Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@95.141.197.16] has joined #scheme 18:45:33 -!- Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@95.141.197.16] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:32 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 18:47:38 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:48 elly: Heh; the Google-expats have erected an idleness -> ping-pong altar here that thankfully generates a little body heat. I'd rather GTFO, though. 18:48:20 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.163.36.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:48:43 idleness -> ping-pong altar? 18:51:18 what normal people call a ping-pong table, I think 18:51:51 elly: Instead of GTFOing in a timely manner when all the productive cycles have been spent, they revel in ping-pong and prolong their pseudo-productivity. 18:53:03 ah, I see 19:01:25 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:02:59 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:05:16 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-134-179.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:09 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-134-179.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 19:07:51 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 19:10:21 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:12:03 freakazoid [seanl@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe93:4599] has joined #scheme 19:12:03 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-222.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:04 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:14:44 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:16:55 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 19:17:32 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:19:57 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-222.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:25:47 kudkudyak [~sun@94.72.140.37] has joined #scheme 19:31:33 -!- JoelMcCracken [~user@c-24-3-189-214.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:31:34 -!- kudkudyak [~sun@94.72.140.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:39 kudkudyak [~sun@94.72.140.37] has joined #scheme 19:35:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:39:23 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 19:42:52 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:47:56 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 19:48:19 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:57:07 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:58:22 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 20:00:35 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 20:01:58 -!- dous_ [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:51 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:06:36 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:08:42 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 20:09:16 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:10:08 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-52-138-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:10:11 -!- pchrist_ is now known as pchrist 20:20:33 Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@85.26.232.40] has joined #scheme 20:20:38 choas [~lars@p5795CB82.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:27:24 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:30:35 bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-52-141-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 20:36:05 samth_ [~samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:36:18 -!- samth_ [~samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:19 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 20:37:00 -!- saccadewrk [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-yqrsedfwgetspsby] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:45 saccadewrk [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-xcnzdgduzzkmnyqd] has joined #scheme 20:40:50 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.163.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:40:51 saccadewrk_ [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-kcsskxbxnarcnvgn] has joined #scheme 20:45:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:45:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:29 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:49:36 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 20:50:57 jcowan_ [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 20:52:05 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 20:52:05 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:52:05 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 20:52:57 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:58:28 Ran! Tan! Terre et ciel! Terre et ciel et sang vermeil! Tan! Tan! Glaive clair! Flots de sang vermeil! 20:59:19 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 21:00:36 -!- saccadewrk_ [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-kcsskxbxnarcnvgn] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:01:56 jcowan_: hi ;) 21:02:05 Hye ho 21:02:06 or hey ho, even 21:02:37 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-204-236-150-238.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:04 rudybot [~luser@ec2-204-236-150-238.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 21:03:12 jcowan_: I noticed that in the r7rs draft the signatures of the string procedures read (string-something c1 c2 c3 ...), why that c_n? 21:04:26 Probably a typo. 21:04:40 most likely ones cloned from character procedures. 21:05:02 Aren't they the monotonic ordering tests? 21:05:14 (string jcowan_: I thought so too 21:07:07 Indeed. 21:07:21 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:12:01 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:24:18 -!- Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@85.26.232.40] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:26:02 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-158-230.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 21:26:55 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:35:29 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-92b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:35:29 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:35:34 SHODAN [~shozan@c-92b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:36:33 LeoNerd : aside, the tail-call-modulo-cons idea happens naturally in Prolog 21:36:44 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #scheme 21:36:45 (also section 3 "Last Call Modulo Constructors Optimization" of "Making Mercury programs tail recursive" by Peter Ross,David Overton,Zoltan Somogyi in 1999-09 at is related) 21:36:46 http://tinyurl.com/6xmqhvh 21:38:39 re your question, i'd love to have TCMC in an implementation -- but i worry that possibly it's not semantics-preserving, in the presence of (multiple-shot) first-class continuations 21:40:53 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:42:28 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:42:29 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:51:02 -!- snizzo [~quassel@host71-235-dynamic.30-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:52 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:01:33 toekutr [~user@pe215.dvc.edu] has joined #scheme 22:02:01 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:05:00 Bruno_Da_Silva [~Bruno_Da_@fon38-1-87-88-195-235.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 22:07:34 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #scheme 22:08:03 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 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pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 23:39:05 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:39:15 -!- choas [~lars@p5795CB82.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:26 Riastradh, I'm interested to hear that your hardware regressed rather than progressed. I am considering something similar, and have an old Thinkpad T42 in mind. 23:42:06 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 23:45:25 Regressed hardware is hard to get. 23:55:33 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:57:20 *elly* really likes the X series of thinkpads right now 23:57:45 Yes, especially X220 Tablet. :-P