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were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 00:47:57 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-48-202-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:23 bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-48-202-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:51:47 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:51:55 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:57:05 -!- bytbox [~s@96.26.105.154] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:05:35 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:06 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:10:56 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #scheme 01:11:43 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 01:23:52 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 01:28:54 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:07 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:36:07 xwl_ [user@nat/nokia/x-aqlxqavsnffydbfj] has joined #scheme 01:37:38 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-189-39.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:49:55 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.15.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:33 -!- GoKhlayeh [~GoKhlayeh@33.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:54:23 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:13 I met someone today who habitually says `the Emacs'; `the Emacs' is probably correct if you mean 'the Editor MACroS for TECO,' right? 02:03:49 Depends on the length of your beard. 02:05:37 *qu1j0t3* doesn't have a beard ... what could this mean?? 02:09:40 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-153-154.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: The garbage collector got me] 02:22:35 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:29:40 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[~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 13:08:46 rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1209-224.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 13:13:09 has anyone experiences with this portable scheme debugger (psd) as referenced here: http://www.cs.tut.fi/staff/pk/scheme/psd/article/article.html ? 13:18:53 -!- snizzo [9e6e2965@gateway/web/freenode/ip.158.110.41.101] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:26:29 -!- z` [~zmv@186.204.151.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:27:14 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-shffeotxjiihfuct] has joined #scheme 13:35:52 qui 13:35:54 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1209-224.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 13:37:27 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.15.195] has joined #scheme 13:39:43 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:45:03 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:03:12 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-158-230.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:12:06 ssbr [~scorchsab@python/site-packages/ssbr] has joined #scheme 14:13:52 I don't suppose there's any way to concatenate symbols other than composing string->symbol, string-append, and symbol->string ? 14:15:57 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-222.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:15:58 lolcow [~lolcow@196-210-143-222.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:19:28 And can I do something similar in syntax-rules? i.e. is there something similar to C's ##? i.e. can I write a macro foo, s.t. if I call (foo ab ac a b) it returns the value of ab (by concatenating a and b), but if I call (foo ab ac a c) it returns the value of ac? 14:21:37 or, well, evaluates to ab ac. I may be a little muddled in my thinking. I'm trying to prepare for a course I'll be TAing, so I'm answering all the questions I've had since I started learning scheme when I took that course. Close up all the chinks in my understanding. 14:24:59 Is this a normal way of doing data structures in scheme? http://aids.diddyinc.com/pub/ 14:25:19 ssbr: I don't think so 14:29:26 rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1221-32.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 14:33:19 ssbr: there is a way, using define-syntax, datum->syntax-object and syntax->list. 14:34:01 OK. 14:34:24 The only time I've seen something like this was with define-struct anyway, and that doesn't use syntax-rules 14:34:36 I'll look up syntax objects et al, though. Thank you. :) 14:38:55 exobit__ [~user@pool-98-116-156-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:39:47 ssbr: What're you trying to do? 14:40:05 -!- drdo [~drdo@ling0.drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:05 -!- Guest48950 [~jdlouhy@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:05 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-151-30.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:05 -!- kmc [~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:06 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:06 -!- exobit_ [~user@pool-98-116-156-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:06 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:12 jeff_ [~jdlouhy@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:40:14 Like, a real example of what you're trying to do, not "ab", "ac", "foo", "bar", etc. 14:40:18 :-) 14:40:22 amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-151-30.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 14:40:30 kmc [~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:40:33 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:40:35 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:38 -!- jeff_ is now known as Guest69151 14:40:52 cky: Find out if it's possible. That's really it. I have a list of questions I've written down, many of which are in the form, "Can I do this?", or "How do I do this?" 14:41:03 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-137-205.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:41:10 drdo [~drdo@ling0.drdo.eu] has joined #scheme 14:41:15 -!- framling [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:23 ssbr: Okay, well, if it's just academic, just consider the answer to be "no". :-) 14:41:34 cky: That works too! :) 14:41:37 ssbr: If there's something real you're trying to do, then we can discuss options. :-) 14:41:41 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 14:41:55 cky: No, it's really just preparedness. I don't want to be stumped if somebody asks me an obvious question 14:42:04 :-) 14:42:10 framling [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:42:12 I figure, the best metric I have for obvious is things I thought of myself 14:42:13 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 14:42:20 ssbr: *nods* 14:42:38 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:43:01 (Also, things like syntax-objects that come up while I'm investigating said "obvious" questions) 14:43:10 Anyway, I have to head out. Thanks for your time, everyone 14:43:16 Have fun! 14:45:52 -!- stchang [~stchang@syrah.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:46:09 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-212.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:47:44 -!- danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:48:34 -!- Guest69151 [~jdlouhy@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:48:42 jeff__ [~jdlouhy@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:50:05 danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:51:31 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:52:08 stamourv` [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:52:09 zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.19.46] has joined #scheme 14:52:20 -!- stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:16 stchang [~stchang@syrah.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:03:55 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined 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cool idea 18:24:56 How does it compare to PLT in terms of execution speed? 18:25:03 I have no idea. 18:25:10 But since it's on the JVM, it should be pretty speedy! 18:25:27 wow 18:25:27 But again, I haven't done any benchmarks myself. 18:25:41 do you know names of any projects for android done on Kawa? 18:25:56 Not personally. 18:29:15 'spose it's this http://androidscheme.blogspot.com/2010/10/introduction-to-android-app-development.html 18:29:15 http://tinyurl.com/2vze2se 18:29:28 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:30:39 Interestingly (to some), ruby android deployables are 10 times the size of kawa-android deployables by default 8o 18:33:10 Presumably the Ruby deployables include the Ruby VM 18:33:23 whereas Kawa uses Dalvik 18:36:04 -!- stamourv` is now known as stamourv 18:40:14 yes 18:40:22 or 18:40:46 more exactly, the high footprint is due to included ruby libs 18:40:57 large, whatever 18:41:42 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:41:54 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@146.169.24.50] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 18:43:53 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-48-206-225.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 18:45:07 Small doesn't seem like it's ever been among Ruby's goals 18:45:24 would you try writing android apps in scheme? 18:46:03 Depends on the Scheme. I've never looked at Kawa. I'd use Clojure in a heartbeat 18:46:21 (which is not a scheme but I like it anyway) 18:46:35 -!- ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:36 wait. dont clojure come on top of jvm. 18:46:46 That's the point 18:47:01 dalvik otoh is something else 18:47:26 you can statically compile clojure to JVM bytecodes and then compile JVM bytecodes to Dalvik 18:48:07 ok 18:48:12 freakazoid: I attended Clojure/conj a couple of months ago. I was surprised to hear that implementing Clojure for Android is actually quite technically challenging. 18:48:15 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 18:48:19 looks like bigloo might compile to dalvik, too 18:48:28 cky: Yeah I was just googling that 18:48:32 freakazoid: Mainly, because Android doesn't have direct support for dynamic class-loading. 18:48:38 I remembered seeing that it was possible but I guess I'd forgotten how hard it was 18:48:56 *nods* 18:48:59 A Scheme that was designed for static compilation to JVM bytecodes might be better suited 18:49:25 freakazoid: If I'm designing a Scheme implementation for Android, I'd compile directly to Dalvik, not to JVM bytecodes. ;-) 18:49:43 I'd prefer to use their compiler backend 18:49:50 if they have an API for it then great 18:50:01 *nods* 18:50:24 I just assumed their API was JVM bytecodes ;-) 18:50:35 Probably. 18:50:38 I wonder what they mean when they say "Android full native support (including multi-threading)" 18:51:04 Support of all the OS features perhaps? 18:51:28 Ooh bigloo 18:51:57 I'd feel a lot more comfortable using a Scheme with bigloo's reputation 18:52:12 it has reputations? 18:52:21 Well I've heard of it before for one thing. 18:53:10 wuzzat? 18:53:43 Wuz wut? 18:53:54 the one thing 18:54:47 csmrfx: Parse that as, "Well, I've heard of it before, for one thing." 18:55:18 Oh hah 18:55:18 syntaks error 18:55:40 I'm pretty sure it's acceptable to leave out the comma there. 18:55:45 Native English speakers take such liberties with their syntax. >_< 18:55:50 Kind of like my cousin George. 18:56:46 freakazoid: It's not the most proper thing in the world, but most native English speakers will understand you. 19:03:53 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 19:05:13 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 19:08:39 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-26.html#%_sec_4.1 <- i am having trouble understanding exercise 4.1. i understand what it means, but i don't see how you can change it. my bet is that i should use the begin statement and do two defines, for the first element and for list of values of the tail (in that order, or if i want rtl evaluation, in reverse order), and then cons those two temp variables. is that righ 19:08:39 t? 19:12:12 car vs cdr 19:12:16 spy vs spy 19:12:59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MODJaM1RDbY 19:13:12 bfgun, you can use a-normal form 19:13:25 e.i, `let' allows you to specify order 19:13:33 ei ie pshhh 19:17:02 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126981 <- is this right? 19:17:32 thats the right idea but most likely illegal 19:17:49 you usually can't put (define ...) inside a (begin ...) that isn't at the module level 19:17:55 especially not in r5rs 19:18:05 do you know about `let' ? 19:18:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-205.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:18:21 so i should do (let ((tmp-car ...) (tmp-cdr ..)) (cons ..) ) vs (let ((tmp-cdr ...) ...) ..) 19:18:44 right, if tmp-car comes first then it will be evaluated first 19:18:50 great :) 19:19:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-205.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:23:55 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-61-154.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:36 ASau [~user@95-28-56-159.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:34:12 lawful_evil [~ddcgavins@64-31-104-122.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #scheme 19:36:15 -!- bfgun is now known as bfig 19:38:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126981#1 <- is this ok? 19:39:43 nope 19:40:24 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:48 lawful_evil, how should it be then? 19:41:32 ood question 19:41:45 ood? 19:43:02 bfig, yea it should work I guess 19:43:13 lawful_evil is complaining about the style of the code -- newline after a ( 19:44:22 ok. i'll change it. i'm still not too sure about code indentation. i find the parens pretty neat :) 19:44:55 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:03 its not a big deal 19:45:17 don't let it happen again 19:45:31 lol 19:45:35 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 19:45:57 gota have a strong hand with kids these days 19:46:48 yes otherwise how will they know to resent you? 19:47:33 oh they resent anything 19:47:38 so whats the difference 19:47:43 liek empolyees 19:47:45 never happy 19:47:50 always want raises 19:47:57 how about doing some thing productive first 19:47:57 the beatings will continue, forever for all eternity 19:48:01 how about doubling production 19:48:24 wow scheme sure is getting a bunch of nice web tools 19:48:34 with stuff I doint understand liek continuations 19:49:21 you can always do poor mans continuation style using node.js 19:49:38 and then come back to continuation land and notice how your blood pressure is 50 points lower 19:50:17 canI do that from scheme? 19:50:24 scheme is a toy 19:50:48 paul graham said viaweb was a forked process that then had a conversation with the client 19:50:51 I like that 19:50:52 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:01 perl's continuity lib website says continuation same thing 19:51:16 the forked process requests new input from client, then processes and swer 19:51:23 then asks for next 19:51:31 so it it pollig not reacting 19:51:35 kinda cool 19:51:41 but I dont understand it very well 19:52:04 I wonder if that alleviates need for multi threading or epoll since each process can be forked to N cpus 19:52:12 yes 19:52:35 not all interpreter implementations support threading 19:52:39 so the forked process requests various input and the main process creates a web page and sends it to the user to satisfy the request? 19:52:46 and I guess then forks whatever children it needs to query data or build html 19:52:58 sounds like a reasonable alternative to continuations 19:53:08 the forked one forks children to make html responses 19:53:23 paul graham said he faked continuations using closures 19:53:28 another word I dont fathom 19:53:33 closures? 19:53:42 I think it has to do with local variables n state 19:53:45 just a lexical scoping thing 19:53:46 non global 19:53:54 what IS lexical scoping? 19:53:58 seperate namesapce? 19:54:00 (let ([x 5]) (lambda () x)) 19:54:10 the lambda creates a closure that captures x 19:54:12 a closure is really just a function and a scope for (also its non-)local vars 19:54:48 soit separaes the 'conversation' from the other 1000 clients connectign to mycoolsite.org 19:54:59 and doesnt need cookies or session n all that crpa 19:55:04 crap 19:55:06 lexical scope means, the function sees whatever is in declared in source 19:55:14 I saw awful in chicken has continuations 19:55:21 lol in the same context. 19:55:24 bah 19:55:24 you certainly dont need sessions with that style -- that seems to be the main benefit 19:55:38 ya 19:55:58 with all the scaling horizontal crap session raelly break things when wrong 19:56:19 this way I can simply scale and each 'conversation' is an island in a sea of cpu and ram 19:56:37 i dont have to replciate sessions to clone boxes to avoid disaster if one box dies 19:56:51 <---bsd/linux admin 19:56:57 <---wana b lisper 19:57:26 well if one box dies then all the people connecting to the server go with it 19:57:59 maybe the balancer catches that and redirects 19:58:07 now if I can figure out howto clone www.prevayler.org in scheme maybe by copying cl-prevalence, then I could have conversations avoid using postgresql for data, and just use an in memory image 19:58:21 if the state is kept in a continuation then you can replicate the continuation 19:58:29 if the state is in a process and the process dies.. you are sort of out of luck 19:58:30 hmm 19:58:39 I think then the user just logs in and reloads his crap 19:58:41 lawful_evil: I was in your shoes just 3 years ago 19:58:44 all this trying to avoid downtime 19:58:48 complexifies and causes it 19:58:49 only I made it in ruby 19:58:57 ruby? 19:59:08 it being www.prevayler.org or? 19:59:21 I didn't know ruby had a prevalence layer. 19:59:23 yeah made object persistence layer 19:59:30 ruby queue seems kinda awesome 19:59:38 is it on ruby forge? 19:59:46 I hope not 19:59:49 persruby 20:00:13 I dont remember releasing it 20:00:31 it was nothing special 20:00:59 ruby has builtin distributed ruby so 20:09:27 whats distribued ruby? 20:21:27 http://segment7.net/projects/ruby/drb/introduction.html 20:35:53 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:07 Newby [eriwilli@nat/redhat/x-dlvgnuhwcohokoew] has joined #scheme 20:40:08 hmmmmmmmmmmmmm 20:40:17 kinda cool 20:42:14 I thought maglev was cool http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFoQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmaglev.github.com%2F&ei=m6IMT6OFG-eA4gSttOn3BQ&usg=AFQjCNFbhYjoRGwhAP4uB3ii7jMP9R40UA 20:42:15 http://tinyurl.com/7z6bska 20:42:27 wait, what hapen to url 20:42:38 maglev.github.com 20:49:29 Anyone here experienced with the guile-thru-to-glade setup? 20:51:46 choas [~lars@p4FDC594C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:54:38 whats glade again? 20:54:43 gui builder? 20:55:02 a gui building app for GTK. 20:55:15 what are you gui-ing? 20:55:27 new scheme based replacement for nagios? 20:55:39 the gui-ing isn't the problem, it is making it all work that is the problem. 20:56:19 I'm using guile(gnu scheme) bindings to GTK and gnome (a windowing system in linux) and I am having problems... 20:56:35 I'm not familiar with nagios 20:56:56 snmp monitoring most popular on linux 20:57:48 The ironic thing here about my situation is that guile is the scripting language for gimp. GTK is short for the gimp tool kit. You'd think that scheme (or at least guile) would be to link, but not really... 20:58:31 I'm trying to build an application 20:58:37 for end users 20:59:08 so the manual didu read? does it cover what kind of thing you are making? 21:00:00 It's all from FSF (gnu), but the problem is that even when I link up the libraries, several of the "make" procedures outlined in there documentation isn't being recognized... 21:02:08 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:09 guile is not the scripting language for the gimp, that would be script-fu or whatever it's called 21:06:02 I would do this: 21:06:08 get archlinux a clean linux 21:06:14 then compile the components 21:06:28 unless it has binaries which si win cuz arhc keeps thier shit surrent 21:07:58 http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/ 21:08:14 Newby: ask on #guile, some people on their have actually got guile-gnome to build ;-) 21:08:39 I didn't find anybody on that channel. A different IRC node? 21:09:18 on freenode 21:09:35 *DerGuteMoritz* hits the troll buzzer 21:09:51 Ah, I see what happened. My chat reverted back to my default dev node 21:12:08 Thanks all. I'll try on the guile channel.. 21:14:53 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:25:36 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:26:14 DerGuteMoritz++ 21:27:58 lawful_evil: Is e.g. chaotic evil even possible in a deterministic activity like programming? 21:28:39 It seems like we're all constrained to be lawful; therefore, "lawful evil" may be a tautology. 21:30:29 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:32:31 *csmrfx* puts his hand on the gc 21:33:12 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:33:34 ? 21:34:04 I believe in rational selfishness adn debauchery but in a lawful heirachical system with me at the top 21:35:16 how conventional 21:40:12 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:46:35 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 21:48:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-236.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:49:28 -!- Newby [eriwilli@nat/redhat/x-dlvgnuhwcohokoew] has left #scheme 21:50:35 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:51:16 klutometis: It's the law that condemns people. 21:52:30 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-1-238.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 21:54:41 I think supply side economics IS economics. 21:54:46 demand side is a myth 21:55:01 anything high prices just mass produce 21:55:07 anything crappy let people not buy 21:55:18 too much $$ to unprodutive activitiees 21:55:23 lawyer 21:55:28 repalce lawyer with software database 21:55:30 .oO(That is really, really off-topic for #scheme, especially coming from Gavino.) 21:55:30 ez 21:55:35 ok sorry 21:57:51 cky: /especially/even/ ? 21:58:03 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 21:58:20 qu1j0t3: No, my point was that anything from Gavino is automatically off-topic, and this is just doubly so. ;-) 21:59:01 lawful_evil: It reminds me of something I read about Nash equilibria, I think, once upon a time: one can optimize payoff in a cooperative game if ever one else obeys the rules except for you. 21:59:41 cky: Oh, that's gavino? 21:59:45 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:00:14 (~ddcgavins@64-31-104-122.static-ip.telepacific.net) 22:00:31 It's like that bizarre case of Jesus and the daemonic pigs. 22:00:33 scheme web hacking is not 22:00:48 of topic is it? 22:00:51 off- 22:00:57 Jesus, in this case, is IRCop; of course: i.e. Riastradh. 22:02:12 cky: yeah, it's kind of subtle, like adouble negative. i think 'even' expresses that a bit better? 22:02:26 as in 'we expect a high level, but this is even beyond that.' 22:02:50 Hehehehehe. 22:03:16 Arafangion: How so? 22:04:35 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:12:23 klutometis: Suppose you borrow a book and are late returning it - by the law, you may be required to pay a fine. 22:13:06 klutometis: The library could be gracious and wiave the fine in recognition that you've never been late before, or because you were only some 30 minutes late or whatever - but by the law you should pay the fine. 22:15:43 And now I must get to work! 22:16:18 Arafangion: That reminds me, for some reason, of the "guns kill people"/"people kill people" dyad. 22:16:39 klutometis: No, that's different. 22:18:20 klutometis: At least... Until 'Minority Report' becomes real. ;) 22:18:39 Arafangion: that kind of leeway is restricted to sentencing 22:18:51 Arafangion: and poo-bahs like governor pardons blah 22:19:35 library fines are probably by-laws with entirely different rules 22:19:51 and now there's mandatory sentencing 22:19:58 qu1j0t3: Library fines are indeed by-laws... Which have a similar weight to laws here. (In Australia) 22:20:09 Arafangion: yet the library can lift them. that's not possible in the Law. 22:20:14 Arafangion: unless you are a governor, etc. 22:20:28 Arafangion: or whatever party in Australia has the power of pardon (I forget) 22:20:41 so it's Law lite 22:21:11 qu1j0t3: It requires an authority who has the power to do so - however, you're talking about the situation where a person has been legally recognised as condemned by that law. 22:21:26 by-laws don't have trials, etc. it's really quite different 22:21:54 qu1j0t3: If the library were to take the person to court, and the person was found guilty, that'd be another matter altogether. 22:22:02 sure. but then you're dealing with Law Law. 22:22:07 which is largely inescapable 22:22:16 qu1j0t3: Put it another way. 22:22:27 for little people, anyway... 22:22:31 qu1j0t3: I could drive my car over the speed limit and get away with it. 22:22:49 discretion. in Moscow yes, indeed, you usually would. ;-) 22:22:55 qu1j0t3: It's clearly against the law, but I might not have been charged with it. 22:22:59 right. 22:23:14 but this kind of discretion is not really allowed. 22:23:58 qu1j0t3: Happens all the time. A police car might have been there, and let it pass because I was only 3 km/h over. 22:24:33 right, but it's not really allowed. 22:24:51 in principle, i mean. 22:24:53 Arafangion: In other words, law are non-deterministic (within certain tolerances); sort of like Java2K: . 22:25:01 in practice, sure. the law is unevenly applied. 22:25:02 qu1j0t3: Yes, that's exactly what we were referring to. 22:25:18 klutometis: And no... The law here specifies that 2kmph over is permittable, but 3... Absolutely not. 22:26:09 makes you wonder why they don't just increase the speed limit by 2kmph 22:27:27 ijp: It's a margin of error. 22:27:57 ijp: lol 22:27:58 The laws here are more strict than those of the US, imho. 22:28:04 ijp: make 10 be the loudest number... 22:29:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-236.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:11 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:38:01 -!- choas [~lars@p4FDC594C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:09 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-1-238.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:42:26 qu1j0t3: Turn it up to 0xB! 22:43:56 !! 22:45:29 panterax_ [~panterax@31.176.159.130] has joined #scheme 22:48:53 -!- panterax [~panterax@31.176.171.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:55:39 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:58:15 Arafangion: So the model for speeding is not like the location of an electron: probabilistically centered around some zero; it's more like engineering tolerance. 22:58:46 I.e. law is deterministic, people are chaotic. 22:58:52 klutometis: some more than others! 23:00:14 qu1j0t3: True; but we're all governed by the deterministic behaviour of these sodium channels we call "neurons," right? 23:00:26 Or is there some kind of emergent chaotic thing? 23:02:24 -!- copumpkin is now known as [eval] 23:02:30 -!- [eval] [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:02:52 pumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:03:00 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 23:03:09 *klutometis* thinks they need to revise "chaotic evil" to "emergent pseudo-chaotic evil." 23:04:32 Brownian evil. :-P 23:04:43 economics covers incentives 23:04:45 poisson evil? 23:04:54 humans are naturally thieves 23:05:04 oh, i've heard this before. 23:05:07 inb4 Hobbes 23:05:13 so if you allow unearned cash to flow aka government etc 23:05:17 you get messes 23:05:28 the part I dont get 23:05:31 Oh god, here we go again. :-( 23:05:32 is in the free market 23:05:35 cky: +1 23:05:46 who originates loans 23:05:55 if not government 23:05:59 private abnks right? 23:06:00 banks 23:06:05 qu1j0t3: :-) 23:07:49 *cky* cheerfully reminds relevant parties that this is #scheme, not #gavino's-soapbox. 23:08:18 (Surprisingly insightful of IRC's designer to actually allow characters like ' and - in channel names. ;-)) 23:09:51 cky: Heh. 23:10:28 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:19 klutometis: That lenience does not extend to the space character. ;-) 23:11:50 23:11:02 freenode -- | #cky's test :Illegal channel name 23:12:31 Nor the ASCII BEL character, according to the RFC. 23:12:37 fizzie: Huh. 23:13:02 Someone didn't want auto-beeping channels, perhaps. 23:13:41 (Oh, and the comma.) 23:13:49 Well, that's for obvious reasons. :-) 23:14:44 What's super-quirky about IRC's JOIN command is that /join 0 parts all channels. 23:17:18 is this on topic?! 23:17:23 *qu1j0t3* ducks 23:17:33 No. :'( 23:17:36 or is meta-irc always on topic 23:17:50 i guess there's just no scheme news. 23:17:59 we'll have to make Smalltalk. 23:18:12 Well, R7RS draft 5 came out some weeks ago. That's Scheme news. ;-) 23:21:01 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Quit: LOLeaving] 23:22:38 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #scheme 23:29:09 gosh hunentoot hates openbsd 23:29:15 works fine on archlinux 23:29:16 wtf 23:29:37 will schemes start implementing r7? 23:30:58 Chibi already does. 23:40:35 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 23:41:28 i'm having trouble understanding how quote interacts with car/cdr. where can i find the rules? 23:42:04 -!- penryu [~penryu@unaffiliated/penryu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-dev] 23:44:21 bfig: They're totally orthogonal. 23:44:29 bfig: Do you have a specific question? 23:45:25 i'm wondering why (cdr (quote (x))) gives you an empty list 23:46:16 nice! 23:46:16 i mean, the quote there is just not acting like a regular list 23:46:26 (quote (x)) evaluates to a list of one element. 23:46:32 It evaluates to the list (x). 23:46:33 quote disables interpretation 23:46:36 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:46:42 so you can pass for example a list to some fnction 23:47:09 bfig: In particular, (car '(x)) is the symbol x, and (cdr '(x)) is the empty list. 23:47:43 rudybot: (define a '(x y z)) 23:47:44 cky: your sandbox is ready 23:47:44 cky: Done. 23:47:49 rudybot: (car a) 23:47:50 cky: ; Value: x 23:47:52 rudybot: (cdr a) 23:47:52 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:47:53 cky: ; Value: (y z) 23:48:05 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-237-66.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:48:08 ok, that makes sense. 23:48:11 Excellent. 23:48:39 i'm a bit confused with the lists vs code still 23:48:47 but what you said makes absolute sense of course 23:48:50 bfig: QUOTE enables data mode. 23:49:00 bfig: But only for the next datum. 23:49:14 i.e., if you have '(...), what's in the ... is processed in data mode. 23:49:20 yes, but it disappears when you look at it 23:49:38 Yes, that's why ' is more readable than QUOTE, at least for me. 23:50:21 i.e., I'd prefer to look at '(x) instead of (quote (x)), even though they're both the same. 23:51:16 BTW. Lists are not the only things that you can quote. Vectors are also quotable. :-) 23:51:24 rudybot: (define c '#(x y z)) 23:51:25 cky: Done. 23:51:34 rudybot: (vector-ref c 1) 23:51:35 cky: ; Value: y 23:53:47 bfig: Of course, loking at '#(...) is gnarly too, because it looks deceptively similar to #'(...), which is somethin else totally different. 23:54:20 '#(...) is (quote #(...)); #'(...) is (syntax (...)). 23:55:15 rudybot: '('#(x y z) #'(x y z)) 23:55:15 cky: ; Value: ((quote #(x y z)) (syntax (x y z)))