00:02:04 teurastaja [~teurastaj@modemcable072.213-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:14:27 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:38 i have this function: 00:17:40 (define (random-permutate lst) 00:17:40 (let ([i (rand (length lst))] [vec (list->vector lst)]) 00:17:41 (vector-swap! vec i i) 00:17:41 (list->vector vec))) 00:17:54 will it do what i intend it to do? 00:19:07 (define rand (random-source-make-permutations default-random-source)) 00:19:19 srfi 27 i think 00:20:42 oops 00:22:18 (define rand (random-source-make-integers default-random-source)) 00:24:33 i mean does the double i produce the same number? if so, how to make it produce 2 different? 00:24:42 teurastaja: probably not. Since the same i is used by both indices of vector-swap, you really have a glorified identity function for lists 00:25:38 teurastaja: you really want to have two calls to rand, e.g. (vector-swap! vec (rand (length lst)) (rand (length lst))) 00:27:30 and that second call to list->vector should be vector->list 00:27:41 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:12 if i previously did this (define rand (random-source-make-permutations default-random-source)) in the global scope and i used it for another rand, what happens? 00:30:17 if you called 'rand' twice, you would, hopefully, get two random numbers 00:30:23 i transcripted it 00:30:52 or do you mean, what if you do (random-source-make-permutations default-random-source) twice? 00:31:01 how is it garanteed from getting the same number twice? 00:31:27 well, you aren't. It's random :) 00:31:32 do i have to rerandomize the source? 00:32:03 if you are worried about getting the same number, you just keep calling rand until you get a different one 00:32:40 usually this will happen with only a very small number of calls, but you never really know with randomness 00:36:29 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:36:45 bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 00:37:14 in the code after "Generating Random Permutations" what hes doing is a vector-swap 00:37:56 by hand 00:39:46 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:42:31 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-64-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:44:35 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:47:13 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 00:51:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-209-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:54:04 who is? 00:56:35 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:56:42 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 01:00:07 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 01:01:23 Sebastian Egner 01:01:39 or the computer 01:01:51 whichever you choose 01:02:22 i find it simpler this way: 01:02:24 (define (random-permutation n) 01:02:24 (let ([x (vector-iota n)]) 01:02:24 (do ([k n (- k 1)]) 01:02:24 ((= k 1) x) 01:02:24 (let* ([i (- k 1)] [j (rand k)] [xi (vector-ref x i)] [xj (vector-ref x j)]) 01:02:26 (vector-set! x i xj) 01:02:32 (vector-set! x j xi))))))) 01:03:26 i made a vector-iota without conversions 01:03:41 snizzo [~Claudio@host152-239-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 01:04:14 min|dvir|us [~dan@ool-45705c85.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:13 Hi. Is there existing example code that uses most (or many) major features and functions of Scheme? 01:06:34 teurastaja: I see. In any case, I was just suggesting that you do -> https://gist.github.com/1445604 01:08:14 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.161.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:11:07 meanwhile i did this improvement to the other code to understand what it did: 01:11:07 (define (random-permutation n) 01:11:07 (let ([x (vector-iota n)]) 01:11:07 (do ([k n (- k 1)]) 01:11:07 ((= k 1) x) 01:11:07 (vector-swap! x (- k 1) (rand k))))) 01:12:58 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 01:15:23 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:23 -!- bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:37 bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:23:23 dnolen_ [~davidnole@pool-68-161-64-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:24:28 min|dvir|us: this book shows off some of them http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ 01:24:45 asumu: is it just me or is dynamic scoping a tool for weaklings? 01:25:07 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-64-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:25:07 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 01:25:13 I don't know if it's for weaklings, but lexical scoping is much nicer by default. 01:27:07 it has it's uses, otherwise we wouldn't have invented fluid variables 01:27:29 s/it's/its/ 01:27:34 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@129.10.228.101] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:29:54 what's the function that examines and gives information about a construct? 01:31:37 PfhorSlayer: that really depends on your implementation 01:32:08 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:33:40 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 01:38:50 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:19 PfhorSlayer: what kind of construct? 01:56:07 i found the solution: 01:56:09 (define (random-permutate lst) 01:56:09 (let ([vec (list->vector lst)]) 01:56:09 (do ([k (length lst) (- k 1)]) 01:56:09 ((= k 1) (vector->list vec)) 01:56:09 (vector-swap! vec (- k 1) (rand k))))) 02:08:33 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@66.220.144.73] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:21:29 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:30:51 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7-dev] 02:38:11 -!- teurastaja [~teurastaj@modemcable072.213-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:42:15 wolfpython [~wolf@112.3.255.4] has joined #scheme 02:43:46 Deformative [8dd543bb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.213.67.187] has joined #scheme 02:47:23 Can anyone direct me to a reasonable parser for email? 02:54:08 ijp: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/net/head.html?q=email 02:54:39 oooh ... "pre" 02:55:04 offby1: that's the one i have my firefox extension set up to query 02:55:14 bleedin' edge, that 02:56:39 samth: thanks, that looks like it will do just fine 02:59:44 freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:01:24 -!- snizzo [~Claudio@host152-239-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:33 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@112.3.255.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:05:47 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:07:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.4] has joined #scheme 03:07:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.4] has quit [Client Quit] 03:07:23 ijp: Doesn't hato include a parser, too? . 03:08:04 klutometis: I don't know; hato has been on my "To checkout" for a while now 03:08:15 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 03:08:31 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 03:08:48 ijp: I vaguely remember using it to parse some email on a project with sjamaan. 03:09:10 No, maybe it was merely to send email; dammit: don't remember. 03:10:44 That's right: the entire filter language implies a parser; not sure if it's been exposed, though: . 03:12:06 -!- jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:14:04 -!- min|dvir|us [~dan@ool-45705c85.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 03:15:17 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-145-170.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:15:30 Oh hmm, a fetchmail replacement. I needed one of those just recently. 03:15:37 Ended up using fdm, but maybe I will try hato. 03:16:45 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:16:49 wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.249.125] has joined #scheme 03:19:48 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@5addaf49.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 03:23:59 -!- exobit [~user@pool-98-116-156-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:25:42 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:30:07 don't be hatin' on hato 03:41:05 -!- Deformative [8dd543bb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.213.67.187] has left #scheme 03:45:14 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.79.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:33 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:46:51 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #scheme 03:54:32 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.249.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:48 -!- foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:57:10 foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 03:59:00 drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 04:02:36 Don't hate on pigeon? 04:02:47 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-64-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:04:52 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 04:05:02 Pigeons are good. For IPoAC. 04:05:45 jrapdx [~jra@c-76-105-198-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:12:12 wolfpython [~wolf@58.212.31.189] has joined #scheme 04:13:24 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:15:45 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:50 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 04:23:42 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:32:29 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@58.212.31.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:33:59 sirvaliance [~sirvalian@gateway/tor-sasl/sirvaliance] has joined #scheme 04:34:04 jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:35:01 If one were to start working through SICP, what scheme would you all recommend, gambit? 04:35:23 Racket. 04:35:43 *sirvaliance* looks up racket 04:35:43 That is, assuming you have no experience with Scheme before this. 04:36:36 jcowan: Really? I'm putting a Scheme-naive friend of mine through SICP, and MIT/GNU has been a superior experience. 04:36:41 sirvaliance: mit-scheme is the one used in sicp. 04:36:46 He tried Racket, and nearly gave up in frustration. 04:36:58 But IIRC, racket has a language mode for sicp too. 04:37:11 sirvaliance: MIT/GNU Scheme; it's what we all cut our teeth on (more or less). 04:38:15 *sirvaliance* installs both racket and mit scheme 04:39:30 klutometis: I didn't 04:39:53 *jcowan* confesses to not knowing much about MIT. 04:39:59 (the Scheme) 04:40:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 04:40:44 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-161.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 04:41:47 Gambit, at any rate, is when execution speed matters more than anything, but you are not willing to put up with extremely long compile times, and can live with relatively limited extensions to core Scheme. 04:41:51 Let me ask this, which one provides the best interpreter experience. From past experiences with lisps, I really disliked the sbcl interpreter. 04:42:11 sirvaliance: well, sbcl is not a scheme implementation... 04:42:19 I know, CL 04:42:33 It was just an example 04:42:56 What didn't you like in sbcl? 04:44:01 Error messages (to a newbie) were not exactly clear IIRC. This was over 2 years ago though. 04:44:25 Does MIT Scheme have a good debugger? 04:44:42 Right. I prefer clisp error messages (on non-compiled code). But in general, debuggers and compilers are not newbie friendly, it's true. 04:45:25 sirvaliance: We'd need something like the Programmer's Apprentice http://csg.csail.mit.edu/CSGArchives/memos/Memo-231.pdf updated for current implementations. 04:46:39 *sirvaliance* reads the link 04:46:57 sirvaliance: see also Harald Wertz's work: http://www.ai.univ-paris8.fr/~hw/mespubs.html 04:47:26 Unfortunately all this was done before Common Lisp and scheme, so it would have to be rewritten. 04:49:23 Probably in Common Lisp. 04:50:05 If could probably be written to target various languages including CL, scheme, and the popular ones such as C, C++, Java... 04:50:11 Interesting 04:52:14 Naive question, but briefly looking through gambit I saw snow for package management. Anything similar to gems in ruby, cabal in haskell, or pip in python for any schemes? 04:52:23 I meant it would have to be rewritten to be in CL, whatever language it targets. 04:53:01 sirvaliance: Yes; unfortunately, most Schemes roll their own, because there is not yet an agreed-upon package/module/library system for Scheme. 04:53:04 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:53:16 :/ 04:53:16 Has anyone ever written a CL-to-Scheme compiler? 04:53:34 Mr Steele and Mr Sussman way back when :) 04:53:35 There's BBN Butterfly CL. 04:53:50 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 04:53:56 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/impl/bbn/0.html 04:53:56 http://tinyurl.com/3cobo63 04:54:02 *ijp* was under the impression rabbit was Scheme->Maclisp 04:54:11 oh yeah 04:54:39 In the other dirrection, there's PseudoScheme, a r4rs implemented in CL. 04:54:45 That I know about. 04:55:20 I also wrote a half-assed implementation of T in Common Lisp called Teh. 04:55:28 sirvaliance: If you use Racket for SICP, look at this: http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/ 04:55:34 Unfortunately, it was only properly tail recursive if the underlying CL was. 04:55:36 (it's a language for SICP compatibility) 04:56:21 It would also be interesting to have a bidirectional bridge between ABCL and either Kawa or SICP (or both) 04:56:55 did you mean SISC? 04:57:02 Yes 04:57:07 brain phart 04:57:27 unfortunately there seems to be very little documentation of how ABCL represents data and functions 04:57:49 asumu: Thanks, this is interesting... 05:16:30 -!- platinuum [~platinuum@S0106602ad06b80ad.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:21:43 -!- ijp [~user@host86-168-33-149.range86-168.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: good night] 05:29:14 wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.249.125] has joined #scheme 05:29:29 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 05:32:09 -!- aidy [~aidy@phallus1.diddyinc.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:32:09 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:34:08 -!- aehrisch [~aehrisch@vhost.knauel.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:34:38 -!- Razz [~tim@kompiler.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:34:40 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:34:46 -!- zedstar [~john@fsf/member/zedstar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:36:51 aidy [~aidy@phallus1.diddyinc.com] has joined #scheme 05:37:01 Razz [~tim@kompiler.org] has joined #scheme 05:37:04 Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has joined #scheme 05:38:27 aehrisch [~aehrisch@vhost.knauel.org] has joined #scheme 05:39:20 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #scheme 05:42:11 -!- bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:47:29 rjcks [~richard@124.225.79.213] has joined #scheme 05:50:45 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.249.125] has quit [Quit: ] 05:53:11 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:06:51 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:09:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:11:06 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:26:39 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:36:13 skld [~skld@vpn.bangalore.geodesic.com] has joined #scheme 06:36:13 -!- skld [~skld@vpn.bangalore.geodesic.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:36:13 skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has joined #scheme 06:36:55 -!- skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has left #scheme 06:38:47 DGASAU`` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #scheme 06:40:41 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:07:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:09:17 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-135-23.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:16:16 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:26:43 zedstar [~john@fsf/member/zedstar] has joined #scheme 07:36:54 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:39:04 foof 07:39:22 ops... 07:46:41 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:53:01 Belaf: Damn, you must be old. :) 08:04:23 ? 08:04:47 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:09:32 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-bxwnywyrpybrmokl] has joined #scheme 08:25:15 Arafangion: older than you think, probably ;-) 08:25:46 foof: sorry, just mistyped while searching the log... 08:37:38 zedstar_ [~john@cpc3-haye16-2-0-cust189.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 08:45:40 Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-122-100-229.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 08:46:02 why can't i use (if (stuff) 1 ((procedure) (procedure))) 08:46:48 Beccause if takes only one expression for the then and else branches. 08:47:34 With the right definition of procedure, this could work. 08:47:41 is there some way to use 2 procedures 08:47:51 or do i need to make new one by stringing them? 08:47:55 rudybot: (define (procedure . x) (lambda x #f)) 08:47:56 pjb: your r5rs sandbox is ready 08:47:56 pjb: Done. 08:48:05 rudybot: (define (stuff) #f) 08:48:05 pjb: Done. 08:48:11 rudybot: (if (stuff) 1 ((procedure) (procedure))) 08:48:11 pjb: ; Value: #f 08:48:39 Operaist2: you can use (begin (procedure) (procedure)) to wrap a sequence of expressions. 08:49:03 Operaist2: So you didn't even read the 50 pages of r5rs. You're lazy. 08:50:04 wait how did you get that to work? 08:50:22 Stop everything right now. Go read r5rs! 08:53:15 is there a shorter and more convenient answer? 08:53:43 To which question? You asked two. 08:53:57 how did you get that to work? 08:54:11 even though you say it omly takes one expression 08:54:18 The answer is to READ the code. (if (stuff) 1 ((procedure) (procedure))) 08:54:30 If you read r5rs, you should know what that mean. 08:54:42 And therefore you should be able to come with a solution for procedure. 08:54:56 ((procedure) (procedure)) is one expression. 08:56:08 Operaist2: programs MEAN something. Once you understand the programming language, you can UNDERSTAND what a program means. 08:56:18 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 08:56:45 well then it should works? 08:57:00 why did you say "beccause if takes only one expression" 08:57:06 With the right definition of procedure, this could work. 08:57:20 Because I first answered to what you wanted, and I then answered to what you asked. 08:58:03 Then I answered more precisely to what you wanted, and then I answered to what you needed. 08:58:11 So 4 answers for the price of 1. 08:59:34 so what kind of procedures do i need to make it work?? 08:59:45 Read above. 09:00:28 procedure must be a procedure that returns a procedure that takes at least one argument. 09:01:16 -!- zedstar_ [~john@cpc3-haye16-2-0-cust189.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:08 so (some-procedure) is a procedure that returns a procedure that takes at least on argument? 09:02:51 mmm 09:02:59 (procedure) returns a procedure that takes at least one argument. 09:03:04 Operaist2, new to scheme aren't you? ,.... 09:03:11 I don't know where you find this some-procedure. 09:03:23 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 09:03:50 Operaist2, check this channel topic, plenty of good books and tutorial , specially for beginners 09:04:06 so ((procedure) (procedure)) doesn't return a procedure that takes one argument?? 09:04:41 Operaist2, just to help a bit about your issue, ...... : (if ) 09:04:41 It can return anything, depending on (procedure). 09:04:51 Operaist2, do you understand that form? 09:05:27 araujo sure 09:05:56 Operaist2, very clear, indeed ..... though you need to be aware of what an "expression" really is 09:06:08 pjb, aren't we talking about (lambda x #f)? 09:06:30 araujo, so what is it, really? 09:06:42 Operaist2: yes. 09:06:46 rudybot: (procedure) 09:06:47 pjb: ; Value: # 09:06:57 that procedure is (lambda x #f). 09:07:00 rudybot: ((procedure)) 09:07:00 pjb: ; Value: #f 09:07:05 rudybot: ((procedure) 1 2 3) 09:07:05 pjb: ; Value: #f 09:07:13 Operaist2, an expression is a normal form that returns a proper value 09:07:26 Operaist2, (+ 1 2) <== expression 09:07:34 it returns 3 , right? 09:07:45 Operaist2, (* (+ 1 2) 5) <== expression 09:07:51 returns 15 09:08:01 properly evaluated, returns a value 09:08:15 Operaist2, now, this: ( (+ 2 3) (* 6 7)) 09:08:19 is that an expression? 09:08:41 who knows what + is bound to :p 09:08:55 (native math function) 09:09:08 araujo, i would guess no 09:09:20 Operaist2, don't guess, try it in your Scheme interpreter 09:09:24 enter and evaluate it 09:09:31 Don't guess, read r5rs and know for sure. 09:09:44 araujo: he didn't even read r5rs yet. 09:10:04 pjb, I can notice he has not read few things yet ;) 09:10:29 pjb, you should teach programming 09:10:34 but let's get our buddy started on this 09:10:42 Operaist2, did you try it out? 09:11:09 pjb, introduction to C programming, lecture one READ K&R 09:11:22 i tried it out 09:11:31 it gave me an error 09:11:48 5 is not a procedure it seems 09:12:25 ok, good, whatever error you got, we can see that as "giving error because it is not an expression" 09:12:35 Operaist2, try adding a math operator in front now, ... 09:12:43 Operaist2, now, this: ( / (+ 2 3) (* 6 7)) 09:12:49 see what happens 09:13:07 i got an asnwer 09:13:11 of some sort 09:13:15 5/42 09:13:21 yes, the result 09:13:21 It's a ratio. 09:13:27 of the math 09:13:28 heh 09:13:57 Operaist2, it is not an error, it is the result of the division ..... it properly evaluated ... because now it is an expression 09:14:15 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-76-105-198-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:14:28 1) (if (< 9 5) #t (+ (* 5 6) (- 1 2))) 09:14:38 2) (if (< 9 5) #t ((* 5 6) (- 1 2))) 09:15:04 Operaist2, you can see the difference now there?, if not, try it out again 09:16:26 then how come ((newline) (display x)) work? 09:17:10 the second code example is what you are originally trying to do, and hence get an error ..... ((* 5 6) (- 1 2)) is not an expression, it means _nothing_ because it has no formal value 09:17:11 It doesn't. THe result of newline is unspecified. 09:17:21 Operaist2, that doesn't work 09:18:04 what? 09:18:06 you sure? 09:18:10 sure 09:18:14 If you're really unlucky, in your implementation (newline) may return a procedure taking various arguments, and it could work, but it wouldn't work in any other implementation. 09:18:20 unless you redefine newline or something 09:18:23 rudybot: ((newline) (display x)) 09:18:23 pjb: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: x in module: 'program 09:18:27 rudybot: ((newline) (display 'x)) 09:18:27 pjb: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: #; arguments were: # 09:18:44 Here, (newline) returns # and # is not a procedure. 09:19:07 Operaist2, I am sure, because, it doesn't follow the basic principle i am explaining to you here about expressions .... ((newline) (display "hi")) ... that has no normal value 09:19:52 Operaist2, thinking in terms of expressions will greatly help you to approach Scheme, specially if you are coming from a procedural/imperative language 09:20:40 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html ex2.23 whats up with that? 09:21:27 check the link in the topics, good learning resources , Scheme is a friendly language 09:22:16 Operaist2, what's up with that?, SICP is a good book, read it all and become a wizard :) 09:22:50 Operaist2: go back and reread 1.1.3 Evaluating Combinations: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1.3 09:23:22 and following... 09:24:35 But read r5rs first. 09:24:46 sicp doesn't teach scheme, it teaches programming. 09:24:50 *araujo* should get bit more tea to ease his headache 09:26:54 no in ex2.23 some body used ((newline) (display x)) 09:27:01 it also worked 09:27:04 so whats up with that 09:27:09 i thought it's not supposed to work 09:27:40 Where do you see that code? 09:27:55 There's a (lambda (x) (newline) (display x)), no ((newline) (display x)). 09:28:49 and again, go read r5rs!!! 09:29:58 but it's soooo long 09:30:05 50 fucking pages! 09:30:09 yeah 09:30:12 50 fucking pages 09:30:41 If that's too long for you, you can stop trying to be a programmer and go sell fries on the beach. 09:31:23 no stop whining and get to work 09:32:19 Operaist2: the reference for the industry-strong programming language Common Lisp is 1200 pages. 09:32:36 And this doesn't count the documentation for the innumerable libraries you need to use to write a real program. 09:32:37 yeah thats cuz common lisp is retarded 09:32:43 and nobody actually reads it 09:33:05 Sure a lot of people read it. Ask on #lisp. 09:33:24 ok 09:33:26 Operaist2: how would you now read *the* authorative reference on your language 09:33:35 s,now,not, 09:35:43 jrapdx [~jra@c-76-105-198-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:36:34 Operaist2, Scheme is a very small language to approach for a beginner 09:37:12 one of the smallest out there, at the same time of keeping powerful features of a modern general purpose language 09:38:50 masm [~masm@2.80.172.175] has joined #scheme 09:39:20 C-Keen how do you mean by what you said? 09:39:31 how would i now read? 09:39:35 with my eyes? 09:40:32 pjb, why r5rs and not r6rs? 09:40:38 Operaist2: he added s,now,not which means you must substitute not for now in the previous sentence. 09:40:54 add^_: r6rs will be superseded by r7rs, and r5rs is small and good for the newbies. 09:41:11 pjb, ah, right. 09:41:43 I wonder when r7rs is here. 09:41:45 Otherwise once r7rs is out, we'll be able to advise r7rs/small to newbies. 09:41:58 how would you not read the authorative reference...? 09:42:04 by doing nothing? 09:42:07 :-) 09:42:28 He's not asking how. He's asking how you could live without doing it! 09:43:26 pjb, r7rs is getting too kind of specs right? (been a bit away from scheme world lately) 09:43:31 Operaist2: I am saying that knowing the definition of a language is essential for being able to write good code in it 09:43:47 araujo: that's the plan, AFAIK. 09:43:50 or any code really, everything else is just copy and paste programming in several forms 09:44:38 add^_: the draft is available for the small standard which should be out "soon" 09:44:48 araujo: r7rs-small and r7rs-large 09:44:55 add^_: you can ask jcowan about the progress of that 09:45:15 small is kinda like r5rs size i think, and big is predicted to end up larger than common list 09:45:20 Brendan_T, pjb aha ... 09:45:22 C-Keen: ah alright. :-) 09:45:43 Brendan_T: I hope your kidding. 09:46:04 add^_: no he is not 09:46:08 Ouch 09:46:27 nope, jcowan did a talk about it which is on video and there is a mailing list somewhere 09:46:30 add^_: http://vimeo.com/29391029 09:46:45 Common Lisp would like to be larger too. It lacks a lot of standizing of modern stuff (network, gui, etc). 09:46:45 Now I understand the moaning about scheme getting too big. 09:47:04 add^_: but r7rs/small + r7rs/large is a good approach. 09:47:33 I'm not against it, I just think it's a lot to read. 09:47:51 I tried to read all of CLHS a couple of times but never got through. 09:47:53 add^_: well the small standard is within the spirit of its predecessors (except one) and the base you can count on, I doubt that all implementations will adobt all of the large part 09:48:11 C-Keen: True.. 09:48:23 it will get a bit better than r5rs + srfis 09:48:34 C-Keen: Good/Professional/Commercial implementations will. 09:48:37 also the module system may make code easier to port 09:48:41 so scheme is bigger than common lisp 09:48:59 pjb: I hope so 09:49:01 Operaist2: There are a lot of CL libraries too. 09:49:23 This will get interesting. :-D 09:51:06 *araujo* remembers to get some pop-corns in the market next time 09:51:33 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-76-105-198-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:43 jrapdx [~jra@c-76-105-198-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:57:35 Thanks for the video C-Keen, I'm watching it right now! 09:57:36 :-D 09:57:42 add^_: my pleasure 10:00:27 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:54 pjb: what scheme do you use these days? 10:06:06 Clozure CL :-) 10:06:13 I rarely use scheme. 10:07:00 :-P 10:07:09 I rarely use scheme but when I do it is a CL 10:07:26 Clozure is a nice implementation 10:07:33 For quickies, I use pseudo-scheme; Otherwise today I installed bigloo on my system. 10:07:44 pseudo-scheme? :) 10:07:50 does it take much effort to learn to use Common Lisp once scheme is learned? 10:08:00 Not much. 10:08:08 Brendan_T: no I did it this way, the CL syntax feels awkward then :) 10:08:10 pseudo-scheme is a r4rs written in Common Lisp. 10:08:15 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-76-105-198-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:08:15 pjb: I see 10:08:25 C-Keen: so your also a CL user? 10:08:31 So I type (scheme) in my CL repl to get a scheme repl. 10:08:47 Rather, programmer.. 10:08:47 add^_: sometimes, I tend not to be too religious about programming languages with parentheses 10:08:55 C-Keen: Ah 10:09:05 add^_: but it is scheme most of the time 10:09:19 I used to program in CL, but I kinda like scheme more (even though I've barely touched it) 10:09:41 I never did anything great in CL though.. 10:10:12 Although I tried to make an OpenGL demo, which went wayo down. 10:10:27 ah the same can happen in any language 10:10:36 Indeed. 10:10:43 So I don't blame CL for anything. 10:10:44 and Zach's quicklisp greatly improved things I think 10:10:52 Oh yes. 10:11:43 It helped very much. 10:12:04 hm, is there a nntp library for scheme? 10:12:41 I want to be able to retrieve articles from a newsserver 10:13:16 Err.. 10:13:17 ah racket has one 10:13:33 Which scheme impl do you use? 10:13:37 chicken 10:13:43 Ah ok :-) 10:13:47 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-161.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:14:48 I'm not much for racket since it's basically it's own language, but like you said (with a little twist) it's not good to get too religious over lisp-like languages. 10:15:27 I haven't heard anything bad about Racket though. 10:16:03 Not that I remember anyway. 10:16:05 it seems to help people teach scheme which is way more than most implementations can say :) 10:16:27 Hm? 10:16:30 Really? 10:16:34 also for newbies it does have a nice UI and the macro debugger is just nice 10:16:42 Ah 10:16:52 I like my emacs setup though xD 10:16:56 me too 10:17:30 Do you use chicken directly or do you use some kind of "geiser/slime" like program? 10:17:42 -!- Belaf [~campedel@net-2-32-163-227.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:19:16 Belaf [~campedel@net-2-32-163-227.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 10:21:49 most of the time I use scheme-mode, if I get too bored I continue debugging the swank extension for chicken ;) 10:21:52 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-205-31.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:08 :-P 10:22:11 ASau [~user@93-80-223-68.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:22:22 I am serious ;= 10:22:25 ;) 10:22:31 I don't doubt you :-P 10:23:04 I liked slime more than I like geiser to be honest, it felt more... well developed. 10:23:25 But I can't say working without geiser is better than with.. 10:23:45 Geiser doesn't seem to support chicken though, which is too bad for you. :-/ 10:24:02 Well, you seem to like scheme-mode anyway so maybe it isn't too bad. 10:24:41 Geiser is nice 10:24:56 :-) 10:25:07 the problem with slime is that the swank protocol isn't documented except in a pile of elisp code 10:25:21 :-S 10:25:37 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-223-68.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:55 ASau [~user@95-27-186-251.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:25:56 I didn't know that. 10:28:52 For some reason, M-p doesn't work like I want to in geiser. 10:28:59 uh 10:29:07 I forgot: sometimes. 10:30:20 It seems to only pick up things that doesn't work. 10:30:29 Most of the times. 10:30:40 ASau` [~user@93-80-101-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:30:50 ;) 10:31:02 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 10:32:16 Like, I put in a parentheses in the wrong place and close the whole thing and it errors, it saves that but not the correct version in the ring.. 10:33:28 Sorry, I don't know 10:33:30 Hm, this time it worked fine, but usually it doesn't. 10:33:46 It's ok, I just felt like whining. 10:33:47 lol 10:35:05 Sorry for making you put up with it. 10:35:16 Commander keen ;-) 10:35:28 K* 10:35:32 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-186-251.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:38:45 ;) 10:38:59 brb :-P 10:40:27 -!- ASau` 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[~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:21:59 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 15:22:45 -!- Belaf [~campedel@net-2-32-163-227.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:27:03 Belaf [~campedel@net-2-32-163-227.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 15:28:08 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:28:43 C-Keen: DrRacket is more than just for newbies 15:28:55 samth: I did not want to imply this 15:29:59 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:04 C-Keen: just clarifying 15:36:42 -!- Belaf [~campedel@net-2-32-163-227.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:42:20 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 15:43:59 freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:07 until today I really don't know for whom racket is. it has a lot of stuff in it, but documentation wise it all feels 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