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02:07:56 <foof> mmc: I hadn't heard of it, but it looks interesting.
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02:36:34 <foof> The conclusions about security are bogus though - you can run secure sandboxed Scheme code.
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05:57:37 <Operaist2> how do i get (/ 15 2) to return 7?
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05:58:51 <pyro-> Operaist2: you possibly want (quotient 15 2)
06:00:15 <finnrobi> Operaist2: possibly what you want, but that rounds towards 0 just so you're aware of it
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06:02:16 <pyro-> Operaist2: see also: floor, ceiling, truncate, round
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06:12:12 <Operaist2> does (modulo 15 2) work?
06:12:58 <Brendan_T> modulo gives the remainder
06:13:17 <Brendan_T> you could have evaluated that and seen it for yourself
06:14:07 <Operaist2> i could
06:14:32 <Operaist2> that seems like a faster way too
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06:17:02 <pyro-> It is more convenient for everyone else in the channel too
06:18:22 <Brendan_T> it sure is, your scheme implementation might have a documentation feature built in (e.g in guile `,d modulo') or im sure there is a reference manual online somewhere
06:21:26 <Operaist2> but it feels nicer getting an answer from a person
06:23:03 <pyro-> Maybe for you. It doesn't feel nice to become someones personal thankless reference manual. Questions that don't have an answer in the documentation are another matter
06:29:40 <Operaist2> oh ok
06:29:42 <Operaist2> thx
06:29:52 <Operaist2> i think that fixed the problem
06:30:47 <pyro-> :-)
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07:09:15 <JdpB42> any scheme of any sort have a decent web framework?
07:11:00 <muep> at least gnu guile has one, but I can't say if it matches your definition of 'decent'
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07:27:07 <MichaelRaskin> JdpB42: same about Racket
07:27:22 <JdpB42> gnu guile has one?
07:27:25 <JdpB42> never liked racket really
07:28:40 <muep> JdpB42: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Web.html
07:29:25 <JdpB42> talk about sparse heh?
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08:27:23 <MengZhang> I just read some responses from implementors on r7rs
08:27:33 <MengZhang> in the r7rs working group mailing list
08:28:30 <MengZhang> while i'm most interested in gambit's proposal
08:28:36 <MengZhang> anyone know about it?
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09:10:37 <BW^-> in ssax-sxml, what's the name of the mechanism using which you can parse an xml _STREAM_ into an sxml _STREAM_?
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09:18:57 <wingo> xml->sxml on a port
09:19:08 <wingo> (use-modules (sxml simple))
09:19:14 <wingo> is the easiest way
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09:37:36 <BW^-> wingo: i see it has a lazy:xml->sxml routine, must be it
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09:38:54 <BW^-> is there any general procedure to check if a variable is a promise?
09:40:19 <fds> promise?
09:40:40 <BW^-> aha; it was hidden as an internal procedure; resolved
09:41:24 <wingo_> ?
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10:02:51 <BW^-> wingo_: ##promise?
10:03:31 <BW^-> hmhm.. so the lazy:xml->sxml routine of ssax-sxml is only a minor modification to the ordinary ssax:xml->sxml , of 200 rows in total
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10:04:05 <wingo_> ah sorry, i thought i was looking at #guile
10:04:10 <wingo_> never mind me :)
10:04:16 <BW^-> essentially both ssax:xml->sxml and lazy:xml->sxml rely on the same codebases; essentially they use ssax:make-parser and that's it
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10:04:38 <BW^-> wingo_: is fine :)
10:04:40 <wingo_> you should probably be asking in chicken too, if i understand you properly
10:04:49 <BW^-> now, i'd like a traditional SSAX parser
10:05:04 <BW^-> the problem i want, is to resolve the file position where the first tag ends, basically
10:05:16 <BW^-> (not including any <?xml version=x ?>  )
10:05:58 <BW^-> if i got it right, ordinary ssax parsers produce a series of events, something like, "now a xyz tag starts" "here's an attribute: key value" "here's a body text chunk" "now a xyz tag ends" etc
10:06:34 <BW^-> with laxy:xml->sxml , i get something else :  i get a behavior like the following
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10:07:19 <BW^-> (define x  ([lazy:xml->sxml that takes string as input] "<?xml version='1.0'?>\n<stream:stream from=\"gmail.com\" id=\"808E7D2BF3142247\" version=\"1.0\" xmlns:stream=\"http://etherx.jabber.org/streams\" xmlns=\"jabber:client\">\n<a b=\"c\" />\n<d>\ne\n<g h=\"i\">  <j> <k /> </j> </g>\n</d>\n<f/>\n</stream:stream>"))
10:08:00 <BW^-> now x = (*TOP* (*PI* xml "version='1.0'") (http://etherx.jabber.org/streams:stream (@ (version "1.0") (id "808E7D2BF3142247") (from "gmail.com"))  (jabber:client:a (@ (b "c"))) #<promise #7>))
10:08:24 <BW^-> see, it does more than an SSAX parser; it took the first tag, and its first sub-tag
10:08:35 <BW^-> (force #7) => ((jabber:client:d "\ne\n" (jabber:client:g (@ (h "i")) (jabber:client:j (jabber:client:k))) #<promise #8>) #<promise #9>)
10:09:02 <BW^-> soo.. i suppose i should get into using ssax:make-parser manually, that ought to be the actual SSAX parser. unfortunately it's completely undocumented. :}
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10:23:36 <BW^-> aha, great, ssax:make-parser is actually a SSAX parser, and it takes SSAX event handler procedures as arguments, and it produces events in the exact order of the input stream
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14:17:57 <leppie> alaricsp: inevitable, Nando's pissed off Zimbabwe militants http://news.yahoo.com/zimbabwe-militants-call-restaurants-boycott-095523317.html
14:17:58 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/7w9x3m7
14:18:34 <alaricsp> No surprise there :-)
14:19:38 <alaricsp> Do you think that'll harm or strengthen Nandos, though? Gaining popularity by publicly making enemies of unpopular people works just as well in PR as in the schoolyard...
14:20:44 <leppie> not sure, my marketing days are over ;P my bachelor's degree means nothing to me!
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17:22:47 <MollocH> Hi there ... I hope anyone can help me. I have a very basic thing to do in scheme and I'm fighting with it since a couple of hours now ... the exercise is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126158 and in the annotation you can see which commands can be used. Can anyone help me with this ?
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17:24:56 <pjb> MollocH: can you take the n-1 first element of a list?
17:25:20 <MollocH> what do you mean ?
17:25:41 <pjb> (subseq (list 1 2 3 4 5) 0 3) --> (1 2 3)
17:26:05 <MollocH> well no
17:26:06 <MollocH>  +, -, *, /, quotient, remainder, =, >, <, >=, <=, zero?, and, or, not, min, max, define, let, let*, lambda, if, cond, expt, sqrt, cons, car, cdr, length, null?, pair?, reverse, map, even?, odd
17:26:12 <MollocH> are the only commands I can use
17:26:12 <pjb> You can write such a function!
17:26:25 <pjb> I don't care what primitive sets you're masochistically reduced to.
17:26:38 <MollocH> it's a university excercise
17:26:45 <pjb> Even if you had only lambda, you could implement a whole scheme from it!
17:27:32 <MollocH> what I did right now is a recursion to go through every element of that list
17:27:49 <pjb> Yes.
17:30:51 <MollocH> but I'm still confused:  (show-every '(5 7 9 11 13 15 17 19) 3) --> (5 7 11 13 17 19) .... if that function is ment to show only every third element. why is the expected output 5 7 11 when in my understanding it should be 5 13
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17:33:41 <pjb> How would I know, there's no specification for show-every in the lisppaste you gave.
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18:14:54 <teurastaja> (let ((talk (delay conversation))) (force talk))
18:15:13 <Iceland_jack> teurastaja: sounds like my ex
18:15:46 <teurastaja> works!
18:16:29 <teurastaja> although it would be more efficient to recur through the list of users in this channel
18:17:08 <klutometis> teurastaja: Is that a philosophical statement about the relationship between `talk' and `conversation', or were you merely hunting for synonyms?
18:17:28 <klutometis> Iceland_jack: Who delays and forces?
18:17:45 <Iceland_jack> klutometis: ;)
18:18:08 <Iceland_jack> I enjoy the philosophical point though: ~Talk are merely delayed conversations.~
18:18:16 <Iceland_jack> It doesn't make sense, but it sounds oh so wise
18:20:55 <teurastaja> (map (lambda (user) (let ((conversation (delay (read user)))) (force conversation)) users)
18:21:20 <Iceland_jack> why (read user)?
18:21:38 <teurastaja> because users are input ports
18:21:50 <Iceland_jack> I worry sometimes
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18:22:36 <teurastaja> does it work?
18:22:47 <teurastaja> s/work/make sense/
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18:24:42 <teurastaja> i think it does. opinions? im bored
18:25:38 <Iceland_jack> teurastaja: Lisp-1 is better than Lisp-1
18:25:40 <Iceland_jack> sorted.
18:25:50 <Iceland_jack> *Lisp-1 is better than Lisp-1
18:25:57 <fds> Heh.
18:25:59 <Iceland_jack> damnit! *lis..
18:26:00 <Iceland_jack> damnit
18:26:07 <teurastaja> huh?
18:26:08 <Iceland_jack> I can't even flame properly
18:28:00 <teurastaja> (define (eval-comment comment) (if (appropriate? comment) comment 'flame))
18:30:42 <teurastaja> (eval-comment “Lisp-1 is better than Lisp-1”) => ??
18:31:19 <leppie> you forgot (if (captcha? (read)) ... :)
18:31:39 <teurastaja> captcha?
18:31:46 <leppie> what would be a good Scheme orientated captcha?
18:31:58 <teurastaja> whats that?
18:32:05 <leppie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTCHA
18:32:51 <leppie> "Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart"
18:32:56 <teurastaja> thats what i thought but what do you mean by scheme oriented captcha?
18:33:22 <teurastaja> oh! telling humans and computers apart you mean?
18:33:45 <leppie> give the user some challenge, eg 'write a expression that results in (1 2 3)'
18:34:10 <leppie> well humans and schemers apart :)
18:34:19 <Iceland_jack> leppie: do the two intersect?
18:34:59 <pjb> Actually, you could take the logs of the various turing tests, and feed them to some machine learning algorithms, and get a good automatic judge...
18:35:31 <teurastaja> you could try to fool the computer. like sending javascript code to be evaluated by the asker. if it evaluates it its a computer
18:35:41 <pjb> or a programmer.
18:35:48 <leppie> i just want something simple but unique for my online evaluator, to prevent the usual spam
18:36:09 <teurastaja> if its a programmer then he wont be able to pass
18:36:13 <leppie> i thought i had a great idea, but it is a bit flawed :
18:36:16 <leppie> :|
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18:36:37 <teurastaja> what do you evaluate?
18:36:55 <teurastaja> what are you protecting? what is the interface?
18:37:07 <leppie> to save a new snippet, one needs a valid scheme program, but then the bastards learnt that other saved snippets is already valid scheme programs
18:37:23 <leppie> teurastaja: http://eval.ironscheme.net/
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18:42:06 <teurastaja> compare the new snippets to the old ones using its reader syntax with hash tables
18:42:25 <leppie> i was thinking that could work too
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18:42:46 <teurastaja> only new working snippets will be saved
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18:44:56 <finnrobi> mandatory xkcd reference for captcha discussions: http://xkcd.com/233/
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18:47:25 <teurastaja> also, you could block any sender who saves more than one snippet in less than 5 seconds
18:47:48 <teurastaja> machines tend to be fast
18:48:20 <teurastaja> or you could monitor typing speed
18:48:31 <leppie> too much work :)
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18:49:47 <leo2007> what are your favourite scheme implementations?
18:50:13 <teurastaja> no. start a timer when the first character is inputed and stop when it clicks the button
18:51:50 <teurastaja> i suggest you tick the timer (verify if the input has grown) every 5 or 10 seconds
18:52:01 <teurastaja> for added security
18:52:28 <teurastaja> its not that complicated
18:52:53 <teurastaja> think abstract
18:53:21 <teurastaja> like schemers do
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19:04:40 <teurastaja> use coprocedures and call the verify procedure every twice last interval to test (/ (length newchars) interval) to a respectable limit
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19:10:20 <teurastaja> (force conversation) ;; work damnit!
19:11:12 <teurastaja> alright heres a topic: explain monads in scheme
19:13:20 <teurastaja> someone?
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19:15:53 <teurastaja> (map (lambda (user) (when (knows? user 'monads) (explain 'monads)) users)
19:16:48 <teurastaja> (map ping users)
19:16:59 <teurastaja> oops
19:17:11 <teurastaja> (for-each ping users)
19:17:44 <asumu> teurastaja: There was a blog article on that a while back, let me see...
19:18:09 <asumu> Here's one: http://dorophone.blogspot.com/2011/11/understanding-haskell-io-monad.html
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19:18:40 <asumu> The author of the blog has a monad library you can play with (in Racket)
19:18:52 <teurastaja> also, does anybody know lua? continuations in lua are not popular and the lua crowd isnt helpful ("do we need it?")
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19:20:04 <teurastaja> its racket...
19:20:29 <teurastaja> not scheme (flame war not intended)
19:20:55 <asumu> The differences between Racket and Scheme aren't really significant for talking about monads.
19:21:18 <asumu> Also, lua has continuations?
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19:21:52 <teurastaja> lua has lexical scoping, closures and tail-call recursion
19:22:16 <asumu> That doesn't imply that it has continuations. As far as I can tell, it has only one-shot continuations emulated using coroutines.
19:22:45 <teurastaja> yes thats what ive been told but i want to build them
19:23:02 <asumu> You can't really do that without changing lua or using continuation-passing style.
19:23:40 <teurastaja> can i simply use continuation-passing style?
19:23:48 <teurastaja> without anything else?
19:24:08 <asumu> Yes, but that's not really a good way to program.
19:24:34 <turbofail> it's not so bad if you're using lua as a compilation target
19:24:38 <teurastaja> because i wrote a scheme cps-converter and i want to write one for lua
19:24:55 <turbofail> and compile your entire standard library using that
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19:25:57 <turbofail> you could probably modify their coroutine implementation and turn it into an actual continuation capture
19:26:13 <teurastaja> how?
19:26:30 <turbofail> well you'd have to do some digging in their C internals
19:27:02 <turbofail> but pretty much every implementation of coroutines or continuations in a language that's intended to be embedded is probably doing a full stack copy
19:27:12 <teurastaja> oh... i dont think its necessary (i could use debugging facilities)
19:28:11 <teurastaja> the way it works is that its first on the stack and when control exits the environment gets copied in the heap
19:29:03 <teurastaja> its a pretty unusual implementation
19:29:46 <teurastaja> but i can capture and restore environments
19:30:19 <teurastaja> i dont want to break tail-call optimization though
19:31:03 <turbofail> of more immediate concern is whether you actually want call/cc as opposed to delimited continuations
19:31:26 <teurastaja> i want call/cc ultimately
19:31:46 <teurastaja> oh..
19:31:49 <teurastaja> right...
19:32:03 <turbofail> i've found delimited continuations to be more useful in practice
19:32:42 <teurastaja> delimited? is that one-shot?
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19:33:42 <freakazoid> I'm pretty sure delimited means you can't return from outside the delimiters
19:33:55 <freakazoid> so you can't jump back in from an arbitrary location
19:34:17 <turbofail> no, you can return from outside the delimiters
19:34:46 <freakazoid> Oh, maybe it is single-shot
19:34:56 <freakazoid> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delimited_continuation
19:34:59 <turbofail> delimited continuations are not single shot
19:35:02 <freakazoid> oh
19:35:03 <freakazoid> hmm
19:35:11 <freakazoid> I am misinterpreting the article, then
19:35:52 <freakazoid> Oh, it can be called multiple times until IT goes outside the delimiters
19:36:15 <turbofail> no you can call the captured continuation as many times as you want
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19:36:58 <freakazoid> hmm
19:37:08 <freakazoid> I guess the main difference is that the continuation returns a value
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19:37:32 <freakazoid> I haven't yet had a good reason to use continuations
19:37:43 <freakazoid> Other than manual CPS code in other languages
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19:45:07 <teurastaja> learning purposes
19:46:30 <teurastaja> (apply scheme lua.internals)
19:47:29 <teurastaja> playing with a language implementation is a good way to learn and i initially wanted scheme to change my programming habits
19:48:19 <teurastaja> although i know continuations arent a habit to abuse
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19:49:47 <teurastaja> i wonder if getenv and setenv are a good way to implement call/cc
19:50:38 <teurastaja> but they are deprecated in lua-5.2
19:51:19 <teurastaja> they say they reimplemented lexical scoping so its not needed (without much details....)
19:51:56 <teurastaja> i hate incomplete docs
19:52:32 <teurastaja> i mean non-free docs for the latest release then its free when its not new anymore
19:52:35 <teurastaja> grrrrrrr
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20:19:37 <ijp> freakazoid: somewhat related, I've been using delimited continuations for monadic reflection recently :)
20:19:45 <ijp> a la filinksi
20:20:15 <freakazoid> nice
20:20:20 <ijp> freakazoid: the reason you want continuations is that there is a pattern in your code, and you want to make it go away
20:21:01 <freakazoid> I just finally figured out how to write syntax-case macros :)
20:21:20 <freakazoid> I haven't quite wrapped my brain around all the things you can do with the various types of continuations
20:22:02 <fds> ijp: Out of interest, what were you doing that required monadic reflection?
20:22:13 *fds* uses words he doesn't understand. ;-)
20:22:35 <ijp> same thing I used monads for before (just to evade the question) :P
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20:22:49 <ijp> well, by that I mean return/>>=
20:23:00 <ijp> and I wanted direct style
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20:24:12 <ijp> mostly it was experimentation purposes, seeing how I could "fix" some non-functional code
20:24:13 <freakazoid> ijp: reading filinski's 2010 paper
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20:25:15 <ijp> freakazoid: I'm talking about "Representing Monads. (1994)", and I'm not sure I recommend it
20:25:20 <freakazoid> wow, he opens with the most concise and enlightening description of monads I've ever read.
20:26:03 <freakazoid> "...they describe how an effectful program can be systematically expanded or trans- lated into a larger, pure program..."
20:26:26 <freakazoid> I've read lots and lots of descriptions of monads and NEVER GOT THAT
20:26:51 <freakazoid> It's always been "it's a way to add side-effects to a pure functional program"
20:27:04 <ijp> yeah, never read anything on monads by someone who is just learning haskell :P
20:27:29 <freakazoid> Most of what i could find on macros was written by people just learning scheme or racket
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20:28:05 <ijp> I stress _just learning_, because I personally recommend sigfpe's 'you could have invented monads'
20:28:07 <freakazoid> I seem incapable of learning anything without knowing the intent of the thing
20:28:21 <freakazoid> cool, I'll check that out too
20:28:36 <ijp> freakazoid: in most other cases I would agree, but not for monads.
20:28:52 <freakazoid> or rather, when I do learn it, it will be because I suddenly stumbled on the basic intent backwards
20:29:10 <ijp> It's just been a minefield of horrible explanations
20:29:34 <freakazoid> ijp: Oh, I was agreeing with you, by the way. I did not learn macros from any of those things.
20:30:00 <freakazoid> ijp: Like, I could cargo-cult what they did, but I had no idea what I was doing
20:30:12 <freakazoid> because they came upon what they ended up with by trial and error and didn't know why much of it was there
20:30:43 <freakazoid> all I really needed to realize was what syntax-case was actually sugar for
20:31:09 <freakazoid> I needed to start by writing syntax transformers as just functions
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20:40:34 <ijp> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad_tutorials_timeline <- hehe
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