00:10:59 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14:18 leppie: Hehehehe. 00:14:50 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:14:56 leppie: I'm currently a "protem" mod at Code Golf Stack Exchange, and I have discovered that I don't have enough time to moderate. :-( 00:15:14 CGSE is a very lightweight site, so not a lot of moderation is needed, but moderation at Stack Overflow is full-on. 00:15:21 So, at least for this year, I'm giving it a pass. 00:17:25 -!- copumpkin is now known as c0w 00:18:49 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:24:28 -!- c0w is now known as copumpkin 00:28:44 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:29:04 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:40 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:10 kk` 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https://github.com/cky/guile2-modules/commit/a5350410cd5369e6e0884af447fae93cfc76238f 04:56:12 http://tinyurl.com/c9gmfly 04:59:37 cky: But you replaced three lines of code with four! 05:05:02 I did? 05:05:09 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:30 Yeah, I guess. 05:05:38 Oh well. Still, it's with-syntax! :-P 05:05:44 *cky* is not trying to code-golf, obviously. 05:07:27 heh 05:10:20 EOF-sensei1 [~temp@dsl-173-206-246-98.tor.primus.ca] has joined #scheme 05:10:21 -!- EOF-sensei [~temp@dsl-173-206-246-98.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:13:16 -!- bfig [~bfig@r186-48-206-201.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:10 -!- EOF-sensei1 is now known as EOF-sensei 05:20:26 krey_ [~krey@stu115.sjc.ox.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 05:25:31 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:25:51 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.106] has joined #scheme 05:26:44 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.60.43.99] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.91.1] 05:30:18 bfig [~bfig@r186-48-198-166.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 05:30:26 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:30:27 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:31:38 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:31:41 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:32:45 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 05:35:14 hi, can somebody explain why this code doesn't behave like escape continuations should? http://pastebin.com/0AEN6STX 05:36:18 the call/cc needs to be outside the loop/for-each 05:36:43 leppie: yes, it seems to work that way, but why? what's the difference? 05:37:11 Also your close parens are written in C style 05:37:14 that will make your program break 05:38:08 you should also probably call return at some stage 05:38:18 Lol re "will make your program break". :-P 05:38:28 freakazoid: I don't understand 05:38:47 krey_: Take that comment with a grain of salt. 05:39:10 krey_: Oh, in lispy languages you're not supposed to start a line with a close paren 05:39:15 krey_: It's a non-standard formatting, so many (almost all) Schemers will frown at it. 05:39:17 leppie: I want to find the first element that equals 5 and print it 05:39:25 it's just a style thing 05:39:40 we like to see ))))))) 05:39:58 kk, I'll keep that in mind 05:39:59 mostly because we don't actually care about them so why not put them all in one place where they take the least amount of space 05:40:09 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40:15 vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@122.167.80.232] has joined #scheme 05:41:13 so, can someone explain why the code is semantically incorrect? 05:41:28 krey_: Uh, leppie already did. 05:42:22 cky: well, he said call/cc should be outside the loop. and yes, it does work that way. but why does it not work this way? what's the difference? 05:42:58 krey_: So, think of call/cc like saved games. When you call the continuation (which is the saved game), you are restoring from that saved game. 05:43:19 (Not the most accurate analogy, but sort of makes sense.) 05:44:12 http://eval.ironscheme.net/?id=17 (specifically understand why there is a #f after the for-each) 05:44:13 So if you have it inside the loop, it's like you're making a new save point every iteration of the loop, not at a point allows you to leave the loop. 05:45:42 the way I see it, when I get the continuation, I "capture" the future of the program. so when I throw it away by not using it, it should terminate 05:46:09 krey_: No. 05:46:40 The way to terminate is to get a continuation that "falls off the bottom", then invoke it. 05:48:19 cky: so when I ask for the continuation inside the loop, what do I actually get? 05:48:34 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:49:16 You get a continuation object that you can use to jump to the continuation of the call/cc call. 05:49:26 krey_: then you can only (and illogically) exit the local procedure (the one execute on every element) 05:51:25 leppie: so I can only exit the current procedure... does this mean that the continuation in some sense is delimited? as in, it doesn't capture all of the future, just the bit that happens in the local procedure 05:51:46 krey_: I think you misunderstand what "capture" means. 05:51:59 krey_: It "clones" the future, effectively. 05:52:18 It doesn't make the current continuation drop dead. 05:52:42 oh, I was under the impression that it did 05:52:49 and by calling the escape procedure correctly, it prevents the future of the current continuation 05:53:34 krey_: If you have done any C programming, in particular setjmp/longjmp, then call/cc is like a much more powerful version of setjmp/longjmp. 05:54:41 cky: nope, never done C to that extent 05:54:55 Okay, never mind. 05:56:40 so i'm looking at the correct version now: what do I clone when I call/cc? 05:57:16 am I cloning "nothing" / empty savegame? 05:57:31 krey_: you can even think about that usage of call/cc as a label and a goto 05:58:47 Yes, that's a good way to look at it too. 05:59:22 krey_: My analogy with the saved game is this: when you save your game, the game goes on; but you can restore the saved game at any time, and lose your unsaved point. 05:59:22 if you are familiar with java or .net, then a closer semantic is throw and catching exceptions 05:59:53 krey_: So in effect you can "relive" from the point of the continuation again and again. 06:00:32 Mere mortals probably shouldn't be using continuations :) 06:00:56 Hehehehehe. 06:01:17 That reminds me. eli wrote a bunch of course notes on writing continuations. krey_, you should read it. 06:01:27 http://tmp.barzilay.org/cont.txt was the last URL I remember of it. 06:01:28 It's probably instructive to do a manual CPS transformation to learn what a continuation is 06:02:04 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #scheme 06:02:16 -!- krey_ is now known as krey_immortal 06:03:16 cky: i've read chapter of plai that he refers to 06:03:36 read it again, and again :) 06:03:40 krey_immortal: Sure, but read his notes too. 06:03:47 It expands on what PLAI talks about. 06:04:44 kk, I've saved the page, I'll look at it tomorrow 06:04:49 thank you for helping 06:04:54 *krey_immortal* goes to bed 06:04:59 Have fun! 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Central time. 12:43:39 Welcome to Scheme and to #scheme, kvda! 12:44:06 Please keep your hands within the REPL at all times while the evaluator is in motion. 12:44:27 Arafangion. east coast, Sydney 12:44:39 thanks alaricsp 12:45:17 haha 12:46:25 kvda: It's 11:45 pm here. 12:46:30 kvda: Left off a digit? 12:46:51 *Arafangion* needs to learn to read. 12:47:04 11:45pm here too 12:47:50 few australians around, good to see 12:48:38 rff [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 12:49:02 do a lot of people here use Scheme in their jobs? 12:52:01 no one here has jobs :) 12:52:11 kuribas [~user@94-227-95-27.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 12:52:15 haha! 12:52:34 I am tasmanian by the way 12:52:43 Ah 12:52:51 In launceston at the moment 12:53:02 I'm from Melbourne originally, in Sydney at the moment 12:53:11 Never got a chance to visit Tassie 12:54:48 my friend wrote a song for a tassie advert video thingy by soutthern cross, if youd like to see a sample of tas :P 12:55:17 haha, certainly 12:55:25 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:36 kvda: I mostly use C#. 12:55:51 kvda: Scheme, alas, is one of my dream languages. 12:56:38 n jj/ / ' n i vfgvb c /9@bh 7] 12:56:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QPqLbUKIvo - she's the guitarist you see in there a little bit, does singing too. I have also just started learning scheme 12:56:51 6/7 12:57:10 Sorry, keyboard baby! 12:57:24 I like your repl joke 12:57:38 lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 13:00:22 B|`endan hah that was cool 13:01:19 Tas looks very green and peaceful 13:01:50 Arafangion, ah haven't been exposed to much of C#. How do you find it? 13:01:51 -!- Em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:02:22 I've never been south of the Equator 13:02:30 I bet it's all warm down there right now! It's getting cold up here. 13:02:42 pandeiro [~pandeiro@177.32.218.141] has joined #scheme 13:02:47 Yep just building up for a very hot summer 13:02:58 I've never used C# but I've read a book on it, just to see what it's all about; it looks like a reasonable re-invention of Java with lessons learnt in hindsight. 13:03:02 kvda: C#'s a very good language, but it's uninspired, imho, and annoyingly sinmplistic at times. 13:03:05 31c forecast for tomorrow 13:03:18 alaricsp: More or less. I much, much prefer C# to Java, though. 13:03:22 Quite 13:03:48 kvda: You should try living in central NSW. We had a 45C summer once. 13:04:05 Em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 13:04:07 New South Wales? 13:04:10 I think this summer's goign to be hot, though. :( 13:04:12 alaricsp: Yep. 13:04:20 *alaricsp* lives within line of sight of ORIGINAL South Wales ;-) 13:04:41 hehe 13:04:51 alaricsp: I think it's "New Wales" - but in the south. :) 13:05:08 Must be a strange thing for a Brit to come to Australia, same names for different places 13:05:24 The USA has some of that, too 13:05:40 A friend of mien just went down to .au a few days ago, not sure where he's visiting though 13:05:41 The USA wasn't a penal colony, though - or was it? 13:05:47 Yeah although they made more of a concious effort to be different 13:06:16 It's surprising how similar Australia and the US get, do you reckon? 13:06:26 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 13:06:47 Arafangion, not a penal colony no, a small step above that, my understanding is that the original pilgrims were unwated in England 13:07:12 kvda: That they were. 13:07:26 kvda: I guess so, its hard to judge being a local, since growing up somewhere makes you 'get used to it' i suppose 13:07:26 kvda: Have you been to van damian's land? 13:07:52 I agree 13:07:55 Van Diemen's land, rather. 13:08:08 No I haven't... 13:08:17 kvda: It's tasmania. 13:08:28 Haha 13:08:30 kvda: And that *was* a convict colony. 13:08:40 kvda: Incidentially, the aboriginals are extinct there. 13:08:53 Truely a bad history. 13:08:58 because us white kids killed them all... ;/ 13:09:13 B|`endan: Indeed. 13:09:20 i was pretty sad when i learnt about it in highschool 13:09:37 or when ever it was 13:09:54 I've heard on the radio that Australia's been going through a phase of uncovering unspoken bits of history lately 13:09:55 B|`endan: It would've been better if they were killed because it was war. 13:10:09 alaricsp: It's not an unspoken bit, really. It's fact. 13:10:15 thats an odd comment, Arafangion 13:10:20 Yeah, but it wasn't spoken about much before 13:10:38 B|`endan: At first they were killed as an example and put into a museaum. Then they were hunted as sport. 13:11:02 I congratulate you folks on having the strength to face it, and wish you luck in this difficult period! 13:11:15 alaricsp: It was spoken of frequently when I was a kid in school. 13:11:16 i wonder what example that was 13:11:42 ... and Port Arthur in Tasmania is the scene for the worst mass murder in Australia, post-colonial 13:12:13 it seems natural, because now its easy to blame it on the people of the past 'oh it wasnt us, but we're really sorry' 13:12:26 B|`endan: Oh, no, that's politics. 13:12:41 at least thats the way i think anyway 13:13:10 B|`endan: The whole notion of land ownership in austraila is based on the legal fiction that nobody owned it. 13:13:22 kvda: yeah that got us some pretty crazy restrictions on guns 13:13:24 B|`endan: Which only works because the aboriginals weren't human. 13:13:38 (Or at least, that's how the fiction worked) 13:13:38 Very convenient 13:14:22 I don't think the early settlers are the best representatives of Western culture, mercenraries and merchants 13:14:46 someone told me that police cannot use their guns ever, and arent even loaded? (thought i wouldnt be suprised if they told me wrongly) 13:14:57 B|`endan: Oh, they can use their guns. 13:15:02 B|`endan: But there's hell to pay if they do. 13:15:12 fair enough, figured they were making crap up 13:16:58 it still has a lot of damage down the line - descendant families seem to have a pretty hard time 13:17:57 though i have little idea about the real reasons 13:18:13 ijp [~user@host109-151-55-138.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:21:19 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-132.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:24:39 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 13:24:57 It's wingo! 13:25:06 wingo wingo! I wrote something USEFUL in SCHEME! *proud* 13:25:47 My home fileserver is currently being backed up with a shiny new content-addressed storage system written in Chicken 13:26:05 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:24 lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 13:26:35 alaricsp: So you have to know the file contents in order to get it? Sounds... Useful. 13:27:05 Arafangion: That's the basic operation, yes, but it's more useful than that ;-) 13:27:15 Objects are identified by their hash 13:27:21 wolong [~wolong@95-31-212-21.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:27:22 alaricsp: I'm aware... I use git, and love it, but I couldn't resist. :) 13:27:27 Ah, right 13:27:46 Basically, like git, it forms a chain of snapshot objects (like commit objects) that refer to the trees 13:28:01 And there's git-like named tags to store the entry points to the chains 13:28:44 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:29:52 I'm backing up 140GiB and it's taken a few days already, and has several days yet to go; it's not the fastest thing, but I already know a few easy things that can be done to improve that. 13:30:21 Correct first, fast second! 13:30:59 What's wrong with XFS? 13:31:03 (Or was it ZFS?) 13:31:23 Nothing, but a filesystem isn't a backup system! 13:32:05 I want read-only snapshots stored on a separate physical device 13:32:30 zfs lets you send snapshots to other systems and all that, which is related, but is all filesystem-dependent 13:32:42 And I have features on the roadmap that go well beyond that 13:32:52 alaricsp: does rsnapshot do that? 13:33:04 Arafangion: Scheme will make you better at C# 13:33:15 useful? in scheme? surely, there's been some mistake here :) 13:33:16 Sort of. That uses rsync under the hood, with hardlinks to share unchanged files between snapshots 13:34:48 A content-addressed-store (CAS) that splits files into blocks lets you reuse unchanged parts of files, so things like my many-gigabyte VMware disk images will be more efficiently stored than with whole-file systems like rsnapshot or Apple's Time Machine thingy 13:35:36 Plus, the CAS does deduplication. My filesystem contains a few clones of some large (~15GiB) trees at the moment as my music collection was forked and the copies got out of sync and I've yet to merge them. 13:35:48 It never stores the same content more than once, so that's not a problem 13:36:02 I have some duplication of system files due to chroots, too 13:36:16 erider [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider] has joined #scheme 13:36:32 But if you back up multiple servers to the same archive, it'll spot if they have the same libc and all that, and not store duplicate copies of those files 13:37:20 *ijp* revokes alaricsp's ivory tower privileges 13:37:27 Darn! :-) 13:48:12 *Arafangion* gives alaricsp a pink pony. 13:48:58 I WANTED BLUE!!! 13:51:48 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-168-163-66.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: x___x] 14:02:16 -!- mmc2 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:05:56 alaricsp: btw, apple's time machine thing is essentially rsync + cp 14:10:56 mmc2 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 14:14:19 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-153-133.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:14:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-153-133.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:43:05 snizzo [~Claudio@host8-8-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 14:49:21 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.230] has joined #scheme 14:53:17 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 14:54:57 Arafangion: I'd call it rsync + ln, but yeah 14:54:57 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 15:26:34 hack_ [~ihack@70.114.193.224] has joined #scheme 15:27:11 -!- snizzo [~Claudio@host8-8-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:49 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:28:23 -!- hack_ [~ihack@70.114.193.224] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 15:29:46 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 15:30:35 -!- paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:34:07 paperkettles [~chris@2406:a000:f005:1f00:226:bbff:fe0c:b57f] has joined #scheme 15:40:15 blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 15:42:23 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:48:24 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:48:54 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 15:53:18 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-d9bfc4dd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:53:30 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77bef4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 15:55:48 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@177.32.218.141] has quit [Quit: Out of quarters] 15:56:55 ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-135-118.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:08:31 Hi, What do you think about FLUXUS ? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9I2nLZgn0&feature=related ( http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/ ) 16:08:33 I'm beginner in Scheme but i find the idea very good - Scheme and 3D and a good interaction. Anyone know a similar project ? 16:09:59 -!- Razz [~tim@kompiler.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:15:04 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.190.228] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:15:44 pandeiro [~pandeiro@177.32.218.141] has joined #scheme 16:17:07 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:45 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 16:22:16 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:31:06 -!- bfig [~bfig@r186-48-198-166.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:34:53 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.204.209] has joined #scheme 16:35:28 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 16:36:13 -!- vu3rdd`` [~vu3rdd@122.178.253.100] has left #scheme 16:38:07 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.178.253.100] has joined #scheme 16:38:15 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.178.253.100] has quit [Changing host] 16:38:15 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 16:43:52 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:44:23 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:47:02 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:53:43 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.230] has joined #scheme 17:00:24 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:07 ahinki: There is impromptu http://impromptu.moso.com.au/ 17:05:33 ahinki: And an open clone/fork/whatever called extempore https://github.com/digego/extempore 17:08:29 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:14:55 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:57 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@177.32.218.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:57 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 17:28:40 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] 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freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:52:20 -!- TheWickedChicken is now known as copumpkin 19:52:56 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:59:52 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:05 cky: all that work and it looks like I *can* nest structs after all 20:01:10 I'm not sure what I did wrong before 20:01:24 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:34 I bet the thing I did wrong was using 5.1 instead of 5.2, since 5.2 is where array support was added 20:01:46 since i upgraded I hadn't retried nesting strings 20:01:52 though I was using an array before 20:01:55 so I dunno 20:03:03 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:05:43 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 20:08:11 -!- freakazoid 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http://hashcollision.org/whalesong/ 22:40:16 finally a language that actually makes sense, in the web. 22:42:18 OH CRAP 614K HELLOWORLD. 22:42:22 no, it does not. 22:43:10 whitequark, try running the closure compiler on it 22:43:54 samth_: I've got almost full ruby in less than 100 (handwritten). 22:44:00 I'll try through 22:44:11 (that ruby compiles to less than 40k by uglify/closure) 22:45:44 samth_: soooo impressive 22:45:45 Original Size: 614.76KB (111.91KB gzipped) 22:45:45 Compiled Size: 613.43KB (110.59KB gzipped) 22:45:45 Saved 0.22% off the original size (1.18% off the gzipped size) 22:45:45 The code may also be accessed at default.js. 22:46:33 sigh. 22:47:33 *whitequark* gets his coffeescript back and waits for harmony. 22:49:15 probably closure doesn't understand that code very well 22:49:35 samth_: well, their compiler already does the closure thing 22:49:45 whitequark, oh ok 22:49:46 I wonder how big it would be without compressing. megabytes? 22:49:56 whitequark, i don't think harmony will make that code much smaller 22:50:02 well, no 22:50:08 but it's a good language on its own 22:50:20 bound functions, quasiquoting (I hope), etc. 22:50:29 let. 22:50:40 bound functions are already in es5 22:50:51 quasiquoting is pretty definite 22:51:36 I expect harmony to be a marketing thing. "we support Harmony, yay!" just like websockets and webgl now are 22:51:44 becasue ES5 support is... rather scarce. 22:52:07 no bind on Safari/iOS devices, for example./ 22:52:16 es5 is supported in all the major browsers in at least their next version 22:52:26 (eg, IE 10) 22:52:50 and i thought that iOS 5 had a pretty recent browser 22:52:56 but i might be wrong about that 22:53:05 a fellow programmer checked his iPad2 just today 22:53:15 I'm not into all that apple products 22:53:25 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #scheme 22:53:29 never had/almost never seen ones. I'm allergic to them :) 22:53:50 the thing I wonder of 22:54:15 is that so hard to make a handwritten runtime that makes sense, _and_ an AST translator that allows some debuggine? 22:54:31 -!- EOF-sensei [~temp@dsl-173-206-246-98.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:54:47 I already have a runtime for coldruby (and Ruby was never known for being small or simple) that passes 70% of MRI tests 22:54:53 and the AST translator is on the way 22:54:56 EOF-sensei [~temp@dsl-173-206-246-98.tor.primus.ca] has joined #scheme 22:55:13 a Lispy one would be more efficient, but I have seen none. 22:55:33 (why? because JS isn't actually OO in Ruby sense, of course.) 22:56:10 so, well, reallyis it truly so hard? if not, then why no one has done it and does insane things like that instead? 22:56:32 i don't understand what you're asking for 22:56:48 currently I'm translating the Ruby bytecode to JavaScript 22:56:59 that produces some huge, unwieldy scripts 22:57:50 I want to map "def function(arg); arg.to_s(16); end" to "$.define_function($c.Kernel, "function", 1, function(self, arg) { return this.funcall(arg, "to_s", 16); });" 22:57:55 my API already works that way. 22:58:29 and this method produces actually somewhat fast, quite readable and very well debuggable code. 22:58:41 unlike the current, or Dart, or this... scheme thing. 22:59:35 now it's like this: http://pastebin.com/5vqBkHLX 23:00:38 so, what prevents one from translating (define (a something) (+ something 10)) to "function a(something) { return something + 10; }" ? 23:04:56 looks pretty trivial 23:05:36 nothing prevents that, except that the semantics of JS functions isn 23:05:43 not the same as scheme functions 23:05:49 and js + isn't the same as scheme + 23:06:05 yes, exact numbers 23:06:05 if you're ok with that, then it's easy 23:06:19 also js: a("foo") 23:06:27 vs scheme: (a "foo") 23:06:33 or a() vs (a) 23:06:43 or a(1,2,3) vs (a 1 2 3) 23:06:57 or a(10000000000000000000000000) vs (a 1000000000000000000000) 23:07:01 I guess I should just try. 23:07:16 I know that I frequently want proper let 23:07:35 that's why we're going to have proper let in harmony 23:07:41 (although it's really letrec) 23:07:50 hm 23:08:19 aha. 23:08:21 I get it 23:08:28 well, harmony is _very_ good. 23:08:47 is the current translator production-ready? 23:09:15 (and the very fact that people working on Harmony hang out on #scheme is quite promising, yes) 23:10:14 right now, the only serious attempt at a translator is Traceur, by people at Google 23:10:41 that probably isn't production ready, and doesn't implement all of harmony 23:10:50 (also, not all of harmony is specified yet) 23:10:57 huh, really? I've seen some wiki pages on harmony stating that there is a good working translator. hm. 23:11:06 for some things, Traceur is good 23:11:18 but it's intended as a vehicle for trying things out 23:11:29 see: http://code.google.com/p/traceur-compiler/ 23:12:10 oh, mixins and traits 23:12:28 those probably won't be in es.next 23:12:31 === 23:12:37 you still have that insanity around?! 23:13:01 which insanity? 23:13:04 === is the sane one 23:13:09 just never use == 23:13:23 yes, and why the hell should I? just make the == the sane one 23:13:35 it isn't backward-compatible anyway 23:13:35 is it? 23:14:44 whitequark, harmony won't be totally backward-compatible 23:14:53 but we don't want to break everything 23:15:12 (not to say you don't have sane versions of >= and similar stuff) 23:15:13 well. 23:15:17 that's quite sad 23:15:19 some things can't be done backward-compatibly (like taking the global object off the scope chain) 23:15:27 so we break backwards-compat for that 23:15:51 but === works 23:16:03 we don't want to make it hard to migrate from ES5 to ES6 23:16:41 is running sed hard? 23:17:18 assuming that if one is already writing in ES5 and does not use == at all, then I guess it isn't 23:17:27 other changes are much more destructive, aren't they? 23:17:50 we want to avoid changes that are hard to discover 23:18:15 so, if you use ==, and we changed it to mean ===, then you might think your program worked the same, but it wouldn't 23:18:37 whereas is you do: window.x = 7; alert(x); 23:18:40 ah, and you can say that global object accesses will fail. 23:18:42 you'll get an early error 23:18:43 yeah 23:19:00 ok, I don't agree, but don't want to start a flamewar either. 23:19:16 what about @instance_variables? 23:19:38 what do you mean? 23:19:55 there was a proposal to make this.var equivalent to @var 23:20:01 the leading candidate for using the @ is for private instance variables 23:20:15 tied into the various class proposals 23:20:22 ah. 23:20:37 but that's all very up-in-the-air at the moment on the committee 23:20:50 any troubles making it an alias for this.something? the parser can be modified just fine, I think 23:21:04 if you're interested in this stuff, i encourage you to participate in es-discuss 23:21:17 a lot 23:21:22 thanks, I'll look into it 23:21:31 that would be easy, but it would use up @ for something pretty trivial 23:21:54 whereas we'd like to use the few remaining chars for more significant stuff 23:22:01 like what? 23:22:25 like private names, for example 23:23:07 are these two incompatible? 23:23:47 private names aren't specific to |this| 23:23:57 hm. 23:24:18 (a) private names are a dynamic mechanism, without syntax at the moment 23:24:36 (b) if we have syntax for private members in classes, it will be class-private rather than instance-private 23:24:45 can you point me to a proposal? 23:26:14 http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:private_name_objects 23:26:19 bbiab 23:26:37 aha thanks 23:30:27 -!- samth_ [~samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:32:24 samth_ [~samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:33:03 tupi [~david@177.30.171.187] has joined #scheme 23:33:24 samth_: I'm not sure I get it right. Is this a proposal for a special object to be created and used instead of a typical string key which will be not enumberable or accessible with other means? 23:33:31 that's quite weird 23:34:01 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 23:34:47 whitequark: yes, that's right 23:35:06 it's similar to private in java, but more flexible 23:36:09 also, much more unconvenient 23:36:20 they're all unique, and I need to keep track of them somewhere 23:36:37 I guess that's the reason you want a special syntax 23:37:03 but what to do, for example, if a class is spread through several files? (in one file, you can of course define them as vars in closure, that's private enough) 23:37:24 i don't see why it's much more inconvenient 23:37:41 you have to do this[x] instead of this.x, but that's only one more character 23:37:53 erm 23:37:59 I also need to define that "x" somewhere 23:38:18 and make sure it's not clashed with some legitimate variable 23:38:19 and so on 23:38:27 don't I? 23:39:01 -!- samth_ [~samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:10 erider [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider] has joined #scheme 23:44:58 whitequark: you just need to do: 23:45:03 let x = Name(); 23:45:14 this[x] = "secret data"; 23:46:46 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@177.32.218.141] has quit [Quit: Out of quarters] 23:47:04 how the new syntax will do it? 23:47:34 plant up that let in a closest common scope for the class? 23:47:38 ah, in just the scope of the class. 23:48:09 also, how would that work with ES5 and lower? 23:48:21 in the translated form, of course 23:49:48 or should I ask on es-discuss... 23:54:46 whitequark: you can't really make it work in es5 perfectly 23:55:01 the best way to translate it is to use a randomly-generated long string 23:56:44 I know a way 23:56:49 it's class-private, right? 23:57:01 whitequark: private names are values 23:57:08 they're private to whoever you share them with 23:57:14 then just use Name(get_this_class_somehow, "x") 23:57:16 ah. 23:57:44 you can use it to create something private to a class, to a pair of classes, to one object, or whatever you want 23:58:16 and the @ syntax will restrict it to being just private to this class 23:58:18 hm.