00:00:15 plainas: PLT-scheme is renamed to racket, racket is a great scheme envirronment: http://racket-lang.org/ 00:06:25 plainas: if MIT 6.01 is SICP, then: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3597781/dr-racket-problems-with-sicp 00:13:24 basically any half decent scheme will get you through sicp with only minor differences (not counting the picture language) 00:13:33 O'Reilly! 00:14:59 what's the 'picture language'? 00:16:02 a bunch of functions for drawing pictures, it is something that crops up part way through chapter 2 00:16:47 I presume MIT scheme still has support for it, and there is a library for racket, but I don't know about any of the others 00:29:48 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@198.202.202.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:33:21 Hilbert__ [~Hilbert@86-45-172-79-dynamic.b-ras2.chf.cork.eircom.net] has joined #scheme 00:35:30 Hilbert___ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has joined #scheme 00:36:31 -!- Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:36:32 -!- Hilbert___ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:39:35 -!- Hilbert__ [~Hilbert@86-45-172-79-dynamic.b-ras2.chf.cork.eircom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:40:46 Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@86-45-172-79-dynamic.b-ras2.chf.cork.eircom.net] has joined #scheme 00:47:53 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:51:44 -!- plainas [~p@31.44.230.79] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:24 Hilbert__ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has joined #scheme 00:54:55 -!- Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@86-45-172-79-dynamic.b-ras2.chf.cork.eircom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:58:32 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:01:04 Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has joined #scheme 01:02:58 -!- Hilbert__ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:14:21 -!- ehiggs [~ehiggs@87-194-210-227.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:19:04 When Russell/Norvig say things like, "Physical simulation of a person is unnecessary for intelligence;" aren't they uncritically adopting Cartesian dualism? 01:19:56 Their position is nevertheless intuitively correct (at least to me). 01:22:54 (Incidentally, my OCR version of AIMA keeps referring to someone named "Al".) 01:23:40 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-104.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:23:41 klutometis: it means Alma, or soul. :) 01:24:15 klutometis: it's the GITS trying to speak 01:24:27 klutometis: through steganographic OCR errors 01:27:06 qu1j0t3: That's a hilarious, n-layered pun (for n > 2). 01:41:10 -!- blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened] 01:41:43 klutometis: :) 01:46:37 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:19:01 qu1j0t3: I penned this in your honor: . 02:24:12 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:06 vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:33:13 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:33:38 klutometis: ok. :) 02:35:09 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:43:57 -!- Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Quit: Hilbert_] 02:59:39 -!- ijp [~user@host81-159-127-88.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:19:28 Hilbert [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has joined #scheme 03:20:34 -!- vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:25:46 -!- chrissbx [~chrissbx@69-196-180-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:44:57 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 03:45:11 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:54:40 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:58:25 kab3wm [~kab3wm@ip68-104-164-215.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:58:39 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:11:43 -!- Hilbert [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Quit: Hilbert] 04:12:05 Hilbert [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has joined #scheme 04:12:10 ; 04:13:21 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220.244.108.23] has joined #scheme 04:15:43 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:21:21 -!- Hilbert [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Quit: Hilbert] 04:35:36 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:24 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:47:03 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:51:35 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 04:58:38 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:05:35 -!- takamoron [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:09:02 takamoron [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #scheme 05:14:42 -!- takamoron [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:30 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:17:34 chrissbx [~chrissbx@69-196-180-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:30:41 takamoron [~takamorm@128.193.12.16] has joined #scheme 05:32:57 -!- kab3wm [~kab3wm@ip68-104-164-215.ph.ph.cox.net] has left #scheme 06:14:56 -!- takamoron [~takamorm@128.193.12.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19:20 confab [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:21:43 -!- confab_ [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:22:25 takamoron [~takamorm@128.193.12.16] has joined #scheme 06:25:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-131-40.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:31:20 -!- takamoron [~takamorm@128.193.12.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:34:55 confab_ [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:36:55 -!- confab [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:42:05 takamoron [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #scheme 06:46:59 -!- takamoron [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:49:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-74.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:53:32 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:01:57 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:13:43 "In 1958, McCarthy defined Lisp, which was to become the dominant AI programming language for the next 30 years." 07:14:04 That's a little sad, isn't it? He capped it at circa 1988, to be usurped by what: Java, Python? 07:14:18 (Russel/Norvig, btw.) 07:15:35 takamoron [~takamorm@128.193.12.16] has joined #scheme 07:54:25 kuribas [~user@d54C43C43.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 07:58:19 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 08:05:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:05:30 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43C43.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:09:43 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: mithos28] 08:12:55 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:17:25 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:20:15 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #scheme 08:29:48 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 08:33:06 Kajtek [~nope@91.150.221.230] has joined #scheme 08:33:55 -!- Kajtek [~nope@91.150.221.230] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:36 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:37 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 08:36:56 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 08:49:51 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 08:58:16 masm [~masm@bl15-66-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:20:16 zmyrgel [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 09:29:08 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 09:42:17 soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:42:22 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:43:50 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220.244.108.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52:47 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #scheme 09:52:47 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 09:52:47 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 09:54:14 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-235.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:54:37 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-235.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:56:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:57:01 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-149-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:13:50 woonie [~woonie@137.132.222.127] has joined #scheme 10:21:10 -!- soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:25 *dostoyevsky* wonders why, if call/cc and syntax is so important for scheme, why it's not dealt with in SICP... 10:26:42 It wasn't invented back then? 10:27:23 Plus, as many people in here will tell you, SICP isn't about Scheme, it's about programming. ;-) 10:27:39 Yes, SICP doesnt deal with macros, for example. 10:27:44 Yeah, hence the title.. 10:29:11 So its job isn't really to tell you about `important Scheme features'. 10:33:59 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:34:04 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:35:28 ehiggs [~ehiggs@87-194-210-227.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:37:07 homie [~levgue@87.79.196.235] has joined #scheme 10:38:25 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-235.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 10:48:03 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f77b8ad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:48:25 Did you guys see this, btw? http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/mcc59.pdf 10:48:53 Fundamental paper, I think, despite its simplicity; still relevant, as a matter of fact. 10:50:37 'Dr. McCarthy's paper belongs in the Journal of Half-Baked Ideas' 10:50:55 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbec7d7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 10:53:33 confab [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:53:48 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #scheme 10:56:19 -!- confab_ [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:59:34 blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 11:02:25 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:02:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-74.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-74.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:12:35 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 11:14:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-74.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:26:49 pon1980 [~pon@h195n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #scheme 11:28:22 -!- pon1980 [~pon@h195n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has left #scheme 11:37:01 -!- replore_ [~replore@125.2.132.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-208-128.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:40:22 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:47:12 pon1980 [~pon@h195n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #scheme 11:52:11 soveran [~soveran@78.249.50.4] has joined #scheme 11:57:40 klutometis: it's not sad. Just prove pythonistas and javaiacs wrong by writing a strong AI agent in Lisp (or scheme). 11:57:55 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 11:58:58 -!- soveran [~soveran@78.249.50.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:13 -!- chrissbx [~chrissbx@69-196-180-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:12:04 John McCarthy's 1956 lisp wasn't intended to be an actual language for implementation, wasn't it? I mean, it was supposed to be theoretical, he didn't even bother to define *numbers*. 12:23:25 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:27:19 Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has joined #scheme 13:01:01 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-104.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:01:11 chrissbx [~chrissbx@69-196-180-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 13:05:18 -!- Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:07:04 Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has joined #scheme 13:09:22 Currently my implementation of TCO is a hack in eval()'s call procedure logic... If I were to implement call/cc, I could define TCO more properly in terms of call/cc, right? 13:15:39 Arafangion: it was definitely intended as a programming language. The concrete syntax wasn't defined yet, McCarthy used M-expressions in papers, S-expressions were intended as an internal representation. Russell however saw that he could use S-expressions as concrete syntax, and therefore implement directly the evaluated defined in the AIM-8 paper. 13:16:34 Arafangion: the proof it was intended as an effective programming language is in McCarthy previous works, and in particular in FLPL http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html 13:17:29 Interesting. 13:20:28 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 13:20:47 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:35:14 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 13:50:14 ijp [~user@host81-159-127-88.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:53:16 dostoyevsky: while SICP doesn't deal with call/cc directly, It does deal with it indirectly in the non-deterministic evaluator 14:01:38 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 14:02:18 pjb: but how did s-expressions become more popular than m-expressions, which are arguably more readable? 14:02:30 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:02:36 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 14:05:01 zvrba: Survival of the fittest. :-) 14:15:42 why are s-exps fittest of the two? 14:18:59 zvrba: first, on computer with punch cards and line printers, there was only upper case letters, so M-expressions could not be implemented. S-expressions could. 14:19:45 zvrba: then, a few years later, macros were invented, and to easily write macros, the homoiconicity is primordial, so S-expressions were locked. 14:21:42 zvrba: nowadays, nobody prevents you to implement M-expressions or any other syntax you want over lisp. All the mechanisms are provided to do so, eg. reader-macros in CL, and most lisp newbies do implement a new syntax (it's kind of a rite of passage). However it is soon realized that syntax doesn't matter, and that it's better to use S-expressions (for the homoiconicity). 14:21:59 Nowadays, new syntaxes are only developed for end-users, as domain-specific syntaxes. 14:22:23 M-expressions in CL: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/index.html 14:22:23 http://tinyurl.com/3tw77ay 14:22:39 -!- skangas [~skangas@h-238-245.a219.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:22:59 dostoyevsky: there's an interesting book: "Compiling with Continuations". 14:26:22 zvrba: 'readability' is largely a case of 'what the reader is already exposed to'. 14:26:30 zvrba: for example, I don't find Russian readable 14:26:59 -!- gienah [~mwright@121.44.52.242] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:27:44 Well, about readability, have a look at the code in papers of the 60's. They wrote M-expressions (and even S-expressions later) fully justified. I guess for S-expressions it was done to spare punch cards... 14:28:10 So old code is totally unreadable (by modern eyes). You have to reformat it and pretty-print it entirely to be able to read it. 14:30:19 pjb: hmm, interesting. 14:33:54 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:34:35 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 14:38:40 brnhck [~hrk@219.117.195.167.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 14:51:01 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:56:09 soveran [~soveran@78.249.50.4] has joined #scheme 14:57:28 snizzo [4f28ea8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.40.234.139] has joined #scheme 14:57:35 hello 14:57:48 is possible to redefine a previously defined name? 14:58:05 how about just trying it+ 14:58:06 snizzo: interactively, yes. 14:58:16 it says me "this name was defined previously and cannot be re-defined" using a simple define 14:58:18 snizzo: in a program file, it's not defined. 14:58:21 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #scheme 14:58:32 interactively yer (racket) 14:58:42 Well, racket is strange... 14:58:58 snizzo: You're probably using some crippled "student language" that is not real Scheme 14:59:07 mm yep. exactly.. 14:59:25 This comes up all the time 14:59:30 have any advice on the tools to use? 15:00:07 You can select the full language somewhere 15:02:02 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:02:17 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 15:02:43 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:45 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:03:48 oh solved! :D 15:05:57 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:29 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:06:38 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 15:06:52 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:17:02 -!- Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:40 ;0 15:30:42 :) 15:42:43 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 15:43:21 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:43:41 -!- imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:43:54 arcfide [~arcfide@53.69.249.216.dsl.dyn.smithvilledsl.net] has joined #scheme 15:45:57 imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 15:46:58 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@53.69.249.216.dsl.dyn.smithvilledsl.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:47:23 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:47:31 tupi [~david@187.80.164.95] has joined #scheme 15:51:47 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 15:51:47 -!- soveran [~soveran@78.249.50.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:15 soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:55:36 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.47.200] has joined #scheme 15:56:38 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 15:57:01 kuribas [~user@94-227-36-171.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 15:57:57 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:35 -!- Nisstyre is now known as ircWisdom 16:01:51 -!- ircWisdom is now known as Nisstyre 16:05:50 zmv [~daniel@c95339f3.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 16:09:54 -!- soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-131-40.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:26 -!- takamoron [~takamorm@128.193.12.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:01 -!- snizzo [4f28ea8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.40.234.139] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:17:50 rachekhan [~Rachekhan@188.19.144.188] has joined #scheme 16:18:08 -!- rachekhan [~Rachekhan@188.19.144.188] has left #scheme 16:26:20 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 16:28:08 mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:29:56 sjamaan: People who see that error message are in 99% of the cases newbies that are well serviced by that restriction, and sending them to the "full" language where they can redefine things is not helping them. 16:29:58 (That's also due to the fact that such redefinitions are not something that behaves in the same way it does in module-less implementations.) 16:31:52 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:35:34 The restriction is serving them so well they need to come here to ask why the thing isn't doing what they expect 16:35:56 -!- blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened] 16:36:01 Only to learn that it's not a true restriction of the language 16:36:32 blackened [~blackened@89.102.29.120] has joined #scheme 16:36:46 -!- brnhck [~hrk@219.117.195.167.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Quit: brnhck] 16:38:09 sjamaan: Ask *why* is it that they want they need to redefine some builtin, instead of bashing it blindly and sending them off to a self-destructive path. 16:38:31 Otherwise don't pretend to do this as an attempt at being helpful. 16:39:19 eli: Experimentation can be a good thing 16:40:04 If they can find their way to the language channel on IRC, it's reasonable to assume they can find the way here again if they really get into trouble 16:41:36 It also doesn't help if everyone here tells them that yes, this is possible, while the system refuses to allow it 16:42:06 "Experimentation can be a good thing" is something that is vague enough to be meaningless. The student languages certainly leave plenty of room for experimentation. OTOH, if you really want to get experimentation, then send people over to use intercal, or more seriously, Haskell. 16:43:03 `eval' is a very similar kind of thing -- but fortunately, it has gained enough popularity to always get the "why do you need it?" reply. 16:43:04 Because that's really going to help them understand this language? 16:43:48 Redefining things leads to similarly obscure issues, like why is `1+' in SLIB defined as (define 1+ (let ((+ +)) (lambda (n) (+ n 1)))) 16:44:00 These are not the kind of language warts that neabies need to be aware of. 16:44:07 (Unless you want to scare people away.) 16:44:49 Not explaining these warts, and worse, referring to the inability to do this as a crippling of the language, is not doing the newbies or "Scheme" any good. 16:45:08 But it is an intentional crippling 16:45:15 You restrict what they're able to do 16:46:19 Of course it is. 16:46:29 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:46:33 It is restrincting their use of a wart. 16:46:59 And that's because completely understanding the wart is useless for these newbies. 16:47:39 -!- tupi [~david@187.80.164.95] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:55 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-66-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:50:04 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:51:13 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:52:53 Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has joined #scheme 16:53:19 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95339f3.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:01:50 tupi [~david@177.30.103.172] has joined #scheme 17:04:41 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:12:03 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-131-40.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:12:32 masm [~masm@bl15-66-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 17:17:36 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 17:18:39 -!- zmyrgel [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:33:47 -!- imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:40:56 mejja [~user@c-0eb9e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 17:43:28 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-66-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:43:52 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 17:50:58 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 17:53:50 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:55:01 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:57:39 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-104.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:08:13 -!- Hilbert_ [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:17 soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:15:34 -!- soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:36 dlila [~dlila@72.53.74.234] has joined #scheme 18:18:27 Hilbert [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has joined #scheme 18:28:32 eli, I wanted to look into redefining some builtins so I could have addition work on vectors 18:28:36 fwiw 18:32:44 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:33:22 soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:37:28 -!- mejja [~user@c-0eb9e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 18:39:45 ehiggs: In that case you need to be aware of that distinction -- some older module-less implementations allow a redefinition of builtins which is actually mutating the names. 18:40:01 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 18:40:25 With these implementations the definition that I wrote above -- the (define 1+ (let ((+ +)) (lambda (n) (+ n 1)))) one -- is used to "protect" existing code from breaking. 18:41:14 In newer implementations, as in Racket, you have a module system that allows you to define a different addition -- one that uses the builtin one -- and then provide it under the same `+' name. 18:42:39 Given that your new `+' will need to use the existing one, a naive switch to the "full" language (which is what you get with a `#lang racket') will not work as you'd expect, because the new `+' will attempt to call itself rather than the builtin one. 18:42:52 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has joined #scheme 18:43:07 -!- soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:28 kenjin2202 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has joined #scheme 18:43:34 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:50 ehiggs: For example, http://tmp.barzilay.org/x1.rkt is an example of such a failed attempt. 18:44:42 And http://tmp.barzilay.org/x2.rkt is a working solution. 18:48:15 leppie: Heh; McCarthy response to Bar-Hillel: "Are you using the word program in the technical sense of a bunch of cards, or in the sense of a project you get money for?" 18:48:23 pjb: Good call 18:51:02 ehiggs: What purpose does your new addition do? Would it have (+ '#(1 2 3 4) '#(2 3 4 5)) return '#(3 5 7 9)? 18:52:15 It seems to be what eli's version does, albeit with lists, and with a typo where list? was written as list in one place. ;-) 18:53:06 eli: In Guile, you could use, say, (@ (guile) +) to access the + from the (guile) module. Does Racket have a similar notation? 18:53:18 Example: 18:53:18 scheme@(guile-user)> ((@ (guile) +) 1 2 3) 18:53:18 $2 = 6 18:53:47 If so, it may in your simple example be simpler to use that, rather than explicitly import it in. 18:53:50 -!- help_ [~y3llow@111-240-174-11.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:54:03 Typo? I never have them! 18:54:19 ;-) 18:54:55 cky, yes it would have. but it's not really nessesary. you can just define something like (vadd or (v+ 18:55:13 *nods* 18:57:18 Having builtins available for more interesting types is nice since it lets you stick with common notation and keep it brief. But I reckon scheme's not the place for it. Best to implement a dsl for math on top of scheme instead. 18:58:39 It doesn't nessesarily sit well with my feelings of technical elegance, though. If we are to suppose s expression notation is elegant and useful, and it is also elegant and useful to have operators act in a contextual manner, one may expect these ideas would play nicely together. 18:58:47 ehiggs: Note that my example is doing just that -- it implements a module that is exactly that kind of a DSL. 19:01:17 -!- Hilbert [~Hilbert@93.95.87.130] has quit [Quit: Hilbert] 19:01:27 Yes, but that's explicitly written to handle all the types we can think of. I yearn for a way which accepts the open closed principle 19:02:01 This isn't really open for extension. 19:04:06 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 19:05:46 ehiggs: Look at swindle, or other object systems. 19:08:10 Thanks. 19:16:03 masm [~masm@bl15-66-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 19:19:52 -!- kenjin2202 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:22 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 19:36:42 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 19:46:20 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 19:48:37 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 19:50:55 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:01:06 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 20:06:02 -!- ehiggs [~ehiggs@87-194-210-227.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:07:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.47.200] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 20:09:49 chatmeup [~ballanty@206.47.188.114] has joined #scheme 20:10:07 -!- chatmeup [~ballanty@206.47.188.114] has left #scheme 20:12:35 -!- chrissbx [~chrissbx@69-196-180-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:17:25 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-60-50.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:25:51 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:33:10 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 20:39:32 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 20:40:03 -!- pon1980 [~pon@h195n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:40:18 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 20:44:17 blackened_ [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 20:46:30 -!- blackened [~blackened@89.102.29.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:47:23 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:00:31 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:02:05 keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3B43C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:04:47 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:05:53 soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:08:11 -!- soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:29 vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:17:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-208-128.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:09 dansa [~kang-r-us@187.42.126.149] has joined #scheme 21:20:14 hi there 21:20:44 ola 21:21:42 ola = wave. Hola = helloo. 21:22:01 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:25:36 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:38 -!- kuribas [~user@94-227-36-171.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:30:55 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:31:40 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3B43C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:33:14 ircWisdom [~ircWisdom@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 21:37:56 -!- ircWisdom [~ircWisdom@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:48 -!- blackened_ is now known as blackened 21:47:34 -!- dansa [~kang-r-us@187.42.126.149] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:48:45 tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:58:54 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-36.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:59:59 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-36.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:01:27 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:01:45 -!- homie [~levgue@87.79.196.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:47 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:05:50 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:08:19 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 22:12:56 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:15:33 -!- vjacob is now known as Ewy 22:15:37 -!- Ewy is now known as vjacob 22:20:14 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 22:22:50 It's a damn shame that Aaron Swartz, that modern Robin Hood of the academy, got arrested before he could rape JSTOR. 22:23:22 Just got gouged $60 for a couple historical articles on genetic algorithms; despite have IEEE access through the university. 22:25:27 :<:< 22:27:03 -!- tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:35 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 22:29:45 -!- woonie [~woonie@137.132.222.127] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:33:24 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34:55 tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:45 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:33 -!- tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:48:28 <_p4bl0> klutometis: :-/ 23:06:14 tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:07:06 -!- tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:19 tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:09:32 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:21:05 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 23:25:53 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:35:36 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:16 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-66-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:15 -!- ijp [~user@host81-159-127-88.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]