00:02:30 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:06 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-65-212.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:05:25 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:07:40 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has joined #scheme 00:08:21 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 00:10:03 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 00:15:01 scottmcl66 [~chatzilla@c-68-49-3-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:30 I know that DrScheme is not the only game in town, but for all it's remarkable flexibility, the scheme seems to be getting remarkably complex. Am I just too old school? 00:18:55 Just to qualify, I'm not some R4RS purist. In fact, I think both match and optional type annotations both belong in the scheme language. Sorry, a little uber share just for perspective. 00:19:29 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:20:17 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #scheme 00:20:17 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 00:20:17 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 00:22:18 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.53.247] has joined #scheme 00:32:31 ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-227-115.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:34:50 scottmcl66, the world is complex 00:35:00 what would you simplify? 00:38:33 scottmcl66: a lot of the complexity is orthogonal. if people aren't complaining about too few libs, they're complaining about too many....... 00:38:40 Perhaps fewer modes of programming, or modes *less* orthoganal. So we might have comprehensions and generators - let's unify the two paradigms. We might have generators and lazy evaluation. Let's nick lazy evaluation. We might have an object system and function application, let's unify the two with a simpler operator for method lookup/super lookup, maybe even a reader syntax. Just some ideas. 00:42:13 We now have three (or more) ways to define records with the (recently?) introduced "(struct Foo ...." form. Do we really need multiple ways to define record types???? 00:45:53 well you're supposed to use (struct foo ...) 00:47:54 How so "supposed 00:48:13 it's preferred style 00:48:23 I use it for easy pattern matched "constructors" in typed-scheme 00:48:26 but it's just a different syntax, all built on the same library 00:49:15 scottmcl66 | Perhaps fewer modes of programming, or modes *less* orthoganal <-- sounds like you want Python :) 00:50:01 racket's goal is to exceed c++ in terms of complexity 00:50:09 *qu1j0t3* shudders 00:50:12 If that's the case, sometimes deprecation or forcing sprucing up the libraries is a good thing. In most programming languages, changing the format for defining record types would be an super-duper major revision. 00:51:22 I saw promise in Python 10+ years ago, but it's just too damn slow (by design) and I don't happen to write simple web servers or scripts. 00:52:31 you could write your own #lang to just provide the features you like 00:52:46 at least thats a possibility, unlike c++ 00:53:05 I think racket's focus on macro research and new language definition is a fantastic goal. But that doesn't mean that any given language defined within the system needs to grow uncontrolled to support redundant function in different language constructs. 00:53:54 scottmcl66: you could use a different implementation, maybe one that's stagnated and is beyond the reach of change :D 00:54:16 I would definitely do just that *if* the primary target language was typed-scheme and it allowed for GHC style optimizations and had an LLVM backend :-) 00:54:43 "..do that.." = writing my own #lang 00:54:45 well that begs a question... what about Haskell... 00:54:46 oh 00:55:03 so you want haskell with macros? 00:55:52 scottmcl66, what's wrong with current typed racket optimization? 00:56:00 and why do you care about the backend 00:56:26 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:56:35 and (define-struct ...) and (struct ...) are very very similar 00:56:36 typed-scheme's type system is really quite fancy. And yes, it allows for macros. If they got their act together on optional and keyword parameters and added a type class facility we'd have a kick ass strict language alternative to Haskell (I just don't like the default lazy evaluation in Haskell) 00:56:55 scottmcl66, they = me 00:57:03 :) 00:57:03 but yes, we're working on that 00:57:16 samth: you and the corgis! 00:57:31 No big, I just care about the back end because once you generate SSA style code, LLVM takes over and optimized the hell out of it. 00:57:33 qu1j0t3, me and stamourv and lots of others, really 00:57:43 scottmcl66, what isn't fast enough right now? 00:58:04 Hey, I think we've exchanged a few type-scheme oriented messages on LTU 00:58:34 zmv_ [~daniel@c953332e.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 01:01:25 -!- zmv [~daniel@c953332e.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:02:42 Confession - roughly 20 years ago I implemented an embedded .DLL Common Lisp clone for the then new Windows 3.1. I read a lot of the old Lisp literature, the Gabriel benchmarks, the Smalltalk books, yada yada. It just made me a stickler for counting machine cycles, for optimizing closure representations, for avoiding memory allocation in the first place, etc. Scheme (or probably Haskell)... 01:02:43 ...won't be C, and that's ok. But I want to get as close as possible within reason. 01:04:25 scottmcl66: "In most programming languages, changing the format for defining record types would be an super-duper major revision." is obvious, in all lisps it is a much smaller change, on the same scale as a change to a library function, because ... it is implemented as a library. 01:04:48 (That's especially true in Racket which pays extra attention for syntax implementation via the module system.) 01:05:36 In any case, there are people who don't like that -- people who claim that macros are an insane feature because having eveyone and their dog modify the language to suit them must be a straight road to total anarchy and hell. 01:05:49 For such people, a language without a macro system is a feature. 01:06:01 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:06:18 Python takes this to an extreme with it's idological motto of "there should be only one way". 01:06:21 -!- samth [~samth@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:06:37 If you want that kind of a language, then I suggest not looking into any kind of Lisp. 01:07:08 Right now I have a compiler front end for a strict, typed language with simple type classes, an emphasis on first class generators (with inlining and stack allocating generator state) for iteration constructs. I'm researching a boatload of applicable type theory stuff, but I'm also debating whether to keep going with DrScheme or switch to a typed language, likely Scala (vararg constructors... 01:07:09 ...and some other useful features for my purposes). 01:08:20 (It's Dr*Racket*; "DrScheme" is dead and burried.) 01:08:37 scottmcl66: Um... wait... you're implementing your own *language*? Why, that 01:08:41 's just insane! 01:08:44 *ski* likes "idological" :) 01:08:55 I like macros. And I don't mind whacky macrology in "3rd party" libraries. But a core language requires restraint. When a genuine improvement, a window should be placed on the now deprecated prior language construct and library writers forewarned to update their code. 01:09:44 Yes, you're absolutely right; macros should be available, but only for certified language designers -- not something that the masses should play with. 01:09:51 Whoops, my bad. DrRacket. FWIW, I have a peculiar set of neurological disorders that completely screws my memory and my sense of time :-( 01:10:14 Therefore it's a feature to acheieve macros by exposing an obscure API for your compiler, just to make sure that 99.9% of the rif-raf have no idea how to change the language. 01:10:28 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:46 The masses *should* play, but in 3rd party libraries, not in the core language which should be defined via "benevolent dictatorship" IMHO. 01:10:49 (That's BTW, not just a joke, it's something that those people take very seriously.) 01:11:12 The Racket language is defined, roughly, like that. 01:11:17 scottmcl66: i don't get it. the way define-syntax works it does no harm to the core language at all. what am I missing? 01:11:19 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 01:11:35 Right, so back to my point about multiple ways to define records. See? 01:11:43 And the dictator said that people should use `struct' from now on -- but he has been benevolent enough to keep `define-struct' for backward compatibility. 01:11:53 There are no multiple ways. 01:11:58 It's `struct'. 01:12:30 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #scheme 01:12:36 I see. I admit, I had no idea that define-struct and (? memory again) define-structure-type were deprecated. Did I miss something on the blog or in the docs? 01:14:13 scottmcl66: `define-struct' is deprecated. Kept only for backward compatibility. 01:14:55 `define-structure-type' doesn't exist, you might be confusing it with `make-struct-type' -- and that's part of the low-level API for generating struct types, which you could use dynamically or in new struct-like forms. 01:14:58 BTW, I'm curious if there is any focus/(funding) for further typed-scheme research into optional or keyword arguments (keyword would do the trick) and perhaps into some kind of type-class construct, ideally with overriding the default inferred type class. Again, just curious. 01:15:21 Yes, thank you, make-struct-type. 01:15:54 eli, I don't doubt your claim, but where is that documented? 01:16:37 -!- zedstar [~john@fsf/member/zedstar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:16:57 scottmcl66: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/define-struct.html#(form._((lib._racket/private/base..rkt)._define-struct)) 01:17:12 where it says: "This form is provided for backwards compatibility; `struct' is preferred." 01:18:17 My bad!!! "This form is provided for backwards compatibility; struct is preferred." There you go. I missed it. 01:18:57 (.. allowing more than one instance of a type for a type class is potentially dangerous/problematic, in a sense) 01:21:30 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:21:42 Scala has an "implicit" parameter scheme that infers a type-class like object but can also be supplied with an explicit dictionary of functions. Pretty cool. It used keyword arguments to "silently" infer the typeclass and likewise to override the default. Something like (Eql Str) is a great candidate should one want a case-insensitive equality predicate. 01:24:37 jjong [~user@58.225.5.42] has joined #scheme 01:27:01 Why is it dangerous. Mere mortals write type class instances all the time over their data types. Writing some named instances and supplying these alternatives explicitly via some clear syntax should present any problems. 01:27:44 And if it is dangerous, I really do sincerely want to learn how it is so. 01:33:02 haskell is horrible 01:33:11 it has terrible error messages 01:34:57 anything else? 01:35:32 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:37:59 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1759] 01:38:17 scottmcl66 : well, it's all about what guarantees you get -- if you have a library which can store `foo's in some kind of collection, which comes from a library that assumes the elements are ordered, then if you go and make another ordering instance for `foo's and insert/whatever into the collection, thing's will break 01:41:05 scottmcl66 : of course, if you don't assume in that collection library that there will be at most one ordering for `foo's, there is no problem -- but to do this, you need to somehow distinguish between collections of `foo's that use (potentially) different orderings; one way to do this is to use module functors (as in SML,O'Caml) that given an ordering on `foo's create a new kind of collection (of `foo's), with operations 01:42:12 ski: yes, a typeclass (like many other language constructs - say, a function type) only guarantees a somewhat minimal set of constraints, namely passing the type checker. Aside from assertions/constriants/etc., I'm reminded of the rather delightful classification of different iterators in STL and how these constrain what algorithms can be performed on them. 01:42:41 (btw, note that the module system in Scheme48 also has module functors -- iiuc, it was (partly) inspired by the SML one) 01:43:15 beginnerman [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 01:43:59 *ski* knows nothing about iterators in STL 01:44:13 hey guys, i am learning scheme as my first programming language. i am reading SICP. is scheme good for making simple games? 01:44:20 I didn't know that. "Full figured" modules, as it were, with Functors are nifty foo for better composition. 01:44:22 like roguelikes 01:45:31 beginnerman: Yes. 01:45:37 In the early 90's I was a total C++ head. Even slummed at a military contractor for a while because they were experimenting with C++ :-) 01:46:21 anyone know any examples of a roguelike written in scheme? 01:46:24 white_magic [white_magi@69.76.19.210] has joined #scheme 01:47:45 -!- drks [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Session timeout)] 01:47:55 can someone tell me why "(define (concat lst elem);(cons elem lst))" is different from "(define (concat elem lst);"(cons elem lst))"? I thought that in the identifier part, I could set up the function arguments in any order I wanted. 01:48:34 white_magic, if you pass them in different order, that's the same 01:48:35 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ycsymquaymdlbtya] has joined #scheme 01:48:45 not so in 'dr racket' 01:48:58 you're wrong. you must be doing something wrong 01:48:59 :-) 01:49:10 I'd think Scheme would be a superb language for writing a rogue-like game. Mapping out places/levels (I smell a macro dsl); simplified language parsing; etc. all nicely handled by scheme. 01:49:28 have a look: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/H3d7j.png[/IMG] 01:49:38 scottmcl66, there were some rogues written in Common Lisp 01:49:50 http://i.imgur.com/H3d7j.png 01:50:08 white_magic, for "lst elem" it should be "mylist 5" 01:50:12 and not "5 mylist" 01:51:15 That rings a bell, many from my old BSD/VAX account on HUSC4 in the Harvard science center basement :-) 01:52:06 -!- jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:52:22 -!- amgarching [~matveev@129.187.157.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:43 (scottmcl66 : just to make sure : you know about the different uses of the word "functor" (as in ), right ?) 01:52:50 weirdo: you're right, i did use different numbers, but that would only change one number..i mean in the former case i have (listelem1, 2 3 DOT NEW_ELEM) and im the latter i have (NEW_ELEM listElem1.. etc) 01:53:09 forgive my grammar.. 01:53:41 wait.. 01:54:16 looks like my inattentiveness got the better of me again 01:54:18 thanks weirdo 01:59:09 is it just me or is scheme/lisp parenthesis hell? 02:00:42 it's just you 02:01:00 haha, for some reason C/C++ seems more manageable in this regard 02:01:12 you'll get used to it 02:01:25 then you'll be in my place, telling newbies how parentheses are good 02:01:26 :) 02:01:33 i just wrote a simple recursive function with 6 right parens in one spot 02:01:57 besides, use emacs + geiser + paredit instead of drracket 02:02:15 <_danb_> white_magic: I quite like writing lispy code, but you need something like paredit or at least something that closes the parens 02:02:47 yea, you're probably right. I'm just doing some scheme for a class, that is all 02:02:56 i think i'll stick to my noob ways 02:03:57 then you have no right to complain :P 02:05:15 first world problems.. 02:05:21 (my favorite meme) 02:05:43 -!- jjong [~user@58.225.5.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:16 sorry but my math skills are very poor, im hoping to improve also as i learn to program though. (define circumference (* 2 pi radius)) so this works out the circumference with 2 * pi * radius? 02:08:36 white_magic : you might find useful 02:08:59 beginnerman : yes 02:09:44 i shall bookmark it 02:09:45 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ycsymquaymdlbtya] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:05 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-wctfmwuqaocsdpwd] has joined #scheme 02:11:51 also, what is meant by abstraction in programming? 02:13:40 ignoring the details/internals of something, considering it as a black box (often so as to have less things to think about) 02:14:37 (there are probably other ways to think about it ..) 02:18:29 ok thanks 02:18:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-35.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:18:53 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:19:11 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-114.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:19:30 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-114.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:20:29 ski: hm, that's a very worthwhile style guide. thanks. 02:21:51 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-35.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:22:25 thank Riastradh, who wrote it 02:22:38 (apparently he's missing at the moment) 02:22:40 yes but who is not here :) 02:32:12 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 02:36:26 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:45:51 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 02:46:38 is there much practical exercises in SICP 02:54:50 What do you mean by practical? 02:55:49 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@YYMKL.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:56:30 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-wctfmwuqaocsdpwd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:50 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-wznfpknhpkohlpwn] has joined #scheme 02:57:11 arcfide, will i actually be able to write programs as i read the book 02:57:42 can some help me understand what i'm doing wrong here? this is a recursive function to replace (i-1)th element with 'v' and I've been at it for at least an hour: http://codepad.org/9gr2oLM6 02:57:53 will they give me programs to write in other words 02:58:09 the error message i get is something like 'procedure application: expected procedure, given [some number]' 02:58:29 it's the recursive call which creates the problem 03:00:01 beginnerman: they do. 03:00:20 beginnerman: the book is all online, just open it and read 03:01:40 ok cool. also is this a function? (define (name formal parameters) body) it's described as a 'compound procedure' in the book 03:02:30 white_magic: how many arguments does cons take? 03:04:02 suppose to take 2 03:04:06 *supposed to 03:04:12 elem + list? 03:04:53 that's right. How do you call a procedure with two arguments? 03:05:58 i think i have my parens wrong.. again 03:06:23 gotta use emacs 03:06:49 yes, editor support is a MUST... 03:06:54 le sigh 03:06:57 thanks guys 03:07:00 OTOH even vim has it 03:07:10 i hate when i get stumped on syntax in such terrible ways 03:07:19 scheme's syntax is pretty simple 03:07:27 yea i know.. 03:07:40 i'm just used to IDE's sometimes handholding me in picking up simple mistakes 03:07:55 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:08:03 (while i'll be busy doing important stuff like saving the world) 03:08:52 emacs/vim even notepad++ have decent paren matching 03:08:54 maybe there's an IDE for scheme. 03:09:05 yeah, notepad++ is a decent basic editor for Windows 03:09:16 doesn't require that you dedicate your life to it, as emacs does :) 03:09:23 slilo [~user@host-94-251-99-133.bbcustomer.zsttk.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:37 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:09:45 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:10:01 yea i usually use notepad++, always except right meow 03:10:03 anyone? 03:10:15 beginnerman: hold on 03:10:34 notepad++ is not going to cut it for this 03:11:06 beginnerman: that does indeed look like a function. 03:11:21 beginnerman: you can evaluate simple scheme forms here, by giving them to rudybot. Watch: 03:11:25 rudybot: eval (+ 1 2 3) 03:11:25 *offby1: ; Value: 6 03:11:43 rudybot: eval (define (frotz) (display "Please don't waste my time with trivialities") (newline)) 03:11:44 *offby1: Done. 03:11:48 rudybot: eval (frotz) 03:11:49 *offby1: ; stdout: "Please don't waste my time with trivialities\n" 03:12:03 beginnerman: note that, by default, rudybot runs "racket", which is a variant of scheme 03:12:06 however ... 03:12:08 rudybot: init r5rs 03:12:09 *offby1: your r5rs sandbox is ready 03:12:12 rudybot: eval (define (frotz) (display "Please don't waste my time with trivialities") (newline)) 03:12:12 *offby1: Done. 03:12:16 rudybot: eval (frotz) 03:12:16 *offby1: ; stdout: "Please don't waste my time with trivialities\n" 03:12:27 beginnerman: you can get him to do vanilla r5rs, as you can see. 03:12:38 (r6rs might or might not work; I can't remember. Try it!) 03:12:43 oh cool, thanks 03:13:37 rudybot: eval (* 5 5) 03:13:37 beginnerman: your sandbox is ready 03:13:37 beginnerman: ; Value: 25 03:14:54 a maze ing! 03:15:04 rudybot: eval (expt 10 1024) 03:15:04 *offby1: ; Value: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 03:15:48 how can i save what i've done in drRacket? on the interactive read-eval-print window? 03:15:49 shhh you'll crash it 03:15:59 beginnerman: I think there's a "File" menu, as with most apps 03:16:25 yeah i can save, but does it save both windows? 03:16:27 oh, you mean the bottom window? Not sure there's a built-in way. You could probably copy it and paste it somewhere, though. 03:16:30 beginnerman: no 03:17:04 ok so its really just for experimenting? 03:17:20 yep. 03:17:30 you can also try emacs :) 03:18:35 in emacs you can send region or single expression to running scheme 03:19:14 without reevaluating all definitions as in drracket 03:19:32 oh emacs , i love emacs, do i have to do anything to make it work well with scheme? 03:20:14 beginnerman: "geiser" is the best scheme interface I know of for emacs 03:20:34 point scheme-mode to mzscheme, and everything will work 03:20:45 about the interaction window: I think the idea is that if you stumble onto some expression you like, you copy it into the upper window, and thus make it part of the file, which you then save. 03:21:49 (setq scheme-program-name (expand-file-name "~/racket/bin/racket")) 03:21:49 (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist '("\\.rkt\\'" . scheme-mode)) 03:21:49 03:22:31 ok i'll get that. also, what do i save my scheme programs as? right now SICP just has me using the interactive window, so no saving. 03:25:30 what do you mean by "as"? 03:25:39 Do you mean "what filename extension should I use for scheme programs" ? 03:26:20 -!- slilo [~user@host-94-251-99-133.bbcustomer.zsttk.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:27:16 yeah sorry. like python uses foo.py 03:28:17 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 03:28:40 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:29:05 it depends on the various tools you're using :-| 03:29:13 .scm might be the most common 03:29:16 I use .rkt for racket 03:29:23 .ss for old PLT scheme 03:29:32 no real right answer, I don't think 03:29:51 oh ok 03:30:13 It's like, do you use .asm or .s for assembly? .cpp or .cc for C++? etc. 03:30:30 (Re no real right answer.) 03:31:00 -!- copumpkin is now known as presheaves 03:31:08 kinda sucks, but there you are 03:32:13 yeah 03:32:41 well im off to bed, real late. thanks for all the help guys, cya 03:35:19 -!- beginnerman [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:36:09 -!- ChanServ has set mode -q *!*@pool-72-95-244-163.pitbpa.east.verizon.net 03:36:19 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:41:24 -!- presheaves is now known as copumpkin 03:42:52 DrAfk [~duck@user-24-236-92-111.knology.net] has joined #scheme 03:46:09 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:46:28 http://philip.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0006XQ <- so was the MIT Scheme reader ever fixed? 04:01:37 -!- zmv_ [~daniel@c953332e.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:03:05 -!- ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-227-115.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:04:19 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 04:10:23 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-211-210.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:14:41 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:17:35 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-153-103.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 04:19:26 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 04:19:46 woonie [~woonie@137.132.43.211] has joined #scheme 04:19:47 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-wznfpknhpkohlpwn] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:22:41 -!- vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:23:30 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:24:05 -!- DrAfk [~duck@user-24-236-92-111.knology.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:27:46 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 04:28:40 elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has joined #scheme 04:32:20 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-adlpwyawhdbbsand] has joined #scheme 04:32:40 -!- carleastlund [~cce@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 04:36:02 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 04:47:39 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-adlpwyawhdbbsand] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:56:14 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-96-236-148-210.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:56:14 Lemonator [~kniu@pool-96-236-148-210.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:56:32 vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has joined #scheme 04:57:16 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:04:14 soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 05:06:34 HG` [~HG@p579F77DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 05:10:26 samth [~samth@38.110.160.135] has joined #scheme 05:10:57 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F77DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:30:44 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 05:53:38 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:57:25 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:19 -!- woonie [~woonie@137.132.43.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:59:45 bluephoenix47 [~bluephoen@99-70-233-246.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:00:16 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 06:00:42 -!- chair [~king@adsl-108-195-220-248.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 06:01:18 Anyone know why I would get an exception in string-append while trying to import a library? I have a feeling in might be Chez Scheme specific, but thought I'd ask. I get the following error: 06:01:18 > (import (srfi :13)) 06:01:18 Exception in string-append: ("." . ".") is not a string 06:01:18 It seems the pair depends on what I specific as --libdirs 06:06:16 well, whatever imports the libraries got a cons instead of a string. 06:07:05 zipace [~hi@drsd-d9ba8589.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 06:08:39 -!- bluephoenix47 [~bluephoen@99-70-233-246.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:13:25 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:13:49 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 06:16:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:17:26 how would i write a function that might be able to concatenate n number of lists? 06:17:44 use APPEND 06:18:13 well, i know i can use that, but would it be possible to write a function that would be able to append n number of lists? 06:18:32 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:18:34 as in, a number that would vary from function call to function call? 06:18:39 do you mean like: (define (append-many-lists . lists) ... ) 06:18:53 white_magic: You mean you want to append a list of lists? 06:19:04 white_magic: If so, there's concatenate (from SRFI 1). 06:19:06 yes! 06:19:09 list of lists 06:19:17 rudybot: (require srfi/1) 06:19:17 i already have a function to merge 2 lists.. 06:19:17 &rest argument is inefficient 06:19:18 cky: your sandbox is ready 06:19:18 cky: Done. 06:19:36 rudybot: (concatenate '((1 2 3) (5 6 7) (7 8))) 06:19:36 cky: ; Value: (1 2 3 5 6 7 7 8) 06:19:54 weirdo: sigh :p 06:20:05 weirdo: don't use scheme if you want efficiency :p 06:20:11 weirdo: but why would it be inefficient? 06:20:17 so.. how might this actually be implemented? 06:20:22 zvrba, it can exhaust the stack easily 06:20:29 *aspect* suspects efficiency or use of srfi's is not on white_magic's syllabus 06:20:40 weirdo: huh, why? 06:20:41 aspect suspects correctly 06:21:04 white_magic: recursion. Have you written a recursive function that traverses a list, accumulating a result? 06:21:05 zvrba, the way to do with calling convention 06:21:17 aspect: i could do something like that easily, yes 06:21:24 weirdo: that's a matter of (bad) implementation. 06:21:26 wait.. i think im getting the picture 06:21:56 white_magic: it's a pretty simple extension of the same technique 06:22:03 yea.. im just so braindead at this point 06:22:12 it's similar to other functions i've written.. 06:22:30 zvrba, only crap C interpreter does an arbitrary amount of arguments 06:22:34 soon enough you'll find out that they're all folds :) 06:22:39 rudybot: (define (my-concat lists) (reverse! (fold append-reverse '() lists))) 06:22:40 cky: Done. 06:22:49 rudybot: (my-concat '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8))) 06:22:49 cky: ; Value: (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) 06:22:51 weirdo: huh? 06:23:12 white_magic: ^^--- 06:23:23 white_magic: It's up to you to figure out what fold and append-reverse do, of course. 06:23:29 zvrba, that's nothing bad with limiting argument count, other than filtering out bad use(r)s 06:23:33 But that's the basic essence of how to implement concatenate. 06:23:48 weirdo: limit on # of arguments != inefficient 06:24:09 zvrba, it's a matter of calling convention 06:24:19 pass first n arguments in registers + rest on the stack 06:24:57 that really doesn't matter in an interpreted language 06:25:18 that hardly matters even for C 06:25:23 there's no such thing as an "interpreted language". only "interpreted implementation" 06:25:31 ya 06:26:07 for C it doesn't matter because varargs are very limited 06:26:08 but then again it makes no sense to use a high-level language only to guess at how mechanisms are implemented at low-level 06:26:10 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: mithos28] 06:26:31 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:26:33 i.e. there's no APPLY in C 06:26:34 and avoid them only because they might be slow 06:26:44 weirdo: gcc has it as extension. 06:26:45 white_magic: If you must use first-principle functions and not use SRFI 1 at all, then I have an implemention of those functions here: Chum is a slang term for a (usually male) friend. 06:26:49 Oops. 06:26:51 GCC is evil 06:27:04 white_magic: If you must use first-principle functions and not use SRFI 1 at all, then I have an implemention of those functions here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7313563/flatten-a-list-using-only-the-forms-in-the-little-schemer/7324493#7324493 06:27:05 ? 06:27:05 http://tinyurl.com/6d5zhyb 06:27:12 (Thank goodness I didn't paste anything too controversial.) 06:27:15 weirdo, why? 06:27:18 -!- kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27:31 weirdo: how are varargs limited in C? 06:27:40 at least it gives you first class labels unlike many other ones 06:27:44 (I browse the web from a different VM. Sometimes clipboard transfers between VMs aren't always perfect.) 06:27:52 you can pass pointers through varargs, and that's more than enough 06:28:02 aoh: gcc is not C 06:28:12 zvrba, no APPLY in c89 06:28:17 aoh: it's some perversely extended dialect of a c-like language. 06:28:44 weirdo: so what does that have to do with efficiency of apply in scheme? 06:28:53 or, efficiency of rest arguments? 06:29:03 zvrba, parts of it should have been in ansi c imo 06:29:24 zvrba, if you passed 666 * 1024 * 1024 arguments in GCC to a varargs function, it might indeed crash as well 06:29:35 aoh: no. C is a nice, small, easily implementable language. 06:29:35 as with scheme, implementations are usually supersets of the standard 06:29:50 weirdo: so? 06:29:55 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:29:58 zvrba, same with APPLY 06:30:04 it works only for a small amount of arguments 06:30:04 so, what's your point? 06:30:21 and passing a list of lists also works for a small amount of lists 06:30:29 my point is that &rest should be used sparingly 06:30:32 just for a different definition of "small" 06:30:58 weirdo: you have not yet given a reasonable justification for that. 06:31:10 hey everyone, thanks for your kind help and patience 06:31:16 that's not necessarily common for freenode 06:31:22 'night 06:31:23 -!- white_magic [white_magi@69.76.19.210] has quit [] 06:31:25 Lol. 06:31:25 zvrba, compiled impls crashing 06:31:41 unless you're willing to say that compiled scheme is "bad" 06:32:04 zvrba, lack of first class labels makes it pretty hard to do many useful things in C, like threaded code VMs 06:32:06 weirdo: so? C also crashes if you do bad stuff. 06:32:27 weirdo: the difference being that the compiler can check for stack space before doing apply 06:32:34 yeah 06:32:40 aoh: first class labels, hm. can you point me to anything that implements them? 06:32:42 weirdo: and when calling a function directly, it knows EXACTLY the # of passed arguments 06:32:50 no it doesn't 06:32:52 i don't think c would be a worse language if it had required ints to be 4 bytes wide 06:32:55 because there's "set!" 06:33:04 i mean. 06:33:08 it doesn't know whether 06:33:18 the caller is &rest or not 06:33:26 so it has to use the same calling convention anyway 06:33:33 thus it has to raise an exception 06:33:41 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 06:33:52 aoh, what about Amiga? :) 06:33:53 whitequark, http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.4.1/gcc/Labels-as-Values.html http://blog.llvm.org/2010/01/address-of-label-and-indirect-branches.html 06:34:01 aoh: what about 16-bit microcontrollers? 06:34:25 zvrba, their ints are short 06:34:59 if you need 32-bit integers, use long. period. 06:35:11 how hard can it be?! 06:35:57 zvrba: isn't long 64-bit on x86_64? 06:36:03 whitequark: yes. 06:36:21 only minimum length is defined. 06:36:23 which isn't 4 bytes wide 06:36:48 write programs that don't depend on sizeof(int) 06:37:00 aoh: that label stuff is freaking weird 06:37:21 C is good as it is. 06:37:39 zvrba, too many dragons flying around for my tastes :) 06:38:01 but best portable assembly language there is these days 06:38:13 C is not a portable assembly language. 06:38:14 zvrba: you remind me of one colleague which has stressed (I mean it) on multiple occasions that "the program should not depend on existence of current directory!" 06:38:30 whitequark: That is correct. 06:38:39 whitequark: The current directory could be nonexistent. 06:38:45 Especially on Unix. 06:38:46 zvrba, most useful languages will turn into target languages later in lafe. that's actually a compliment. 06:39:03 cky: yep, I know he is correct. 06:39:03 kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 06:39:27 but this is not "the way it should work" or "the way it is convenient" or "obvious", or whatever 06:39:37 it is a stupidest misfeature ever invented 06:39:45 aoh: C is a nice, small language with a well-defined behavior. it even tells you what's undefined. 06:39:46 *the. 06:39:50 Another thing that's not "convenient" is that the program should not depend on stdin, stdout, and stderr being open. 06:40:12 zvrba, int div(int a, int b) { int r = a/b; return(r); } <- how many checks do you need for this not to crash in C before division? 06:40:28 cky: darn, not again. Can't libc make sure that they are either open or redirected to /dev/null? 06:40:28 It's actually easy to invoke a program with all three closed, and if your program opens new files willy-nilly, you could very well overwrite the wrong file. 06:40:40 whitequark: Hahahahaha. 06:41:00 cky: now you'll say that /dev/null may not exist. have I guessed that correctly? 06:41:03 aoh: many. but what's your point? 06:41:32 whitequark: Well, removing /dev/null (or chrooting to a place without /dev) requires root, so I won't consider that part of the threat model. 06:41:49 whitequark: Removing the current directory or closing stdin/stdout/stderr does not require root. 06:41:50 C's only drawback is that it does not offer access to carry flag / extended results of division/multiplication. 06:41:57 zvrba, even a somewhat simple thing like division depends in nontrivial ways on the fact that numbers are represented in two's complement and have a specific number of bits in them 06:41:59 they messed up badly there. 06:42:13 aoh: ah, no. C works also on 1's complement machines. 06:42:26 aoh: and division depends in no way on # of bits. 06:42:37 cky: you can write to an unlinked file in *nix. why cannot you stay in removed directory? 06:43:27 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #scheme 06:44:41 whitequark: you can, but you can't do anything useful with it 06:44:43 whitequark: You can. However, no syscalls that depend on the current directory work. 06:44:48 What zvrba said. 06:45:00 what about unlinking an non-empty directory as root? 06:45:04 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 06:45:15 i know, i know, that's evil 06:46:29 zvrba, yes it does. you have a pair or numbers that crash on machines where long is 4 bytes but doesn't where it is 8 06:46:59 signed division is fairly undefined in general, iirc 06:47:08 s/crash/produces undefined behavior/ 06:47:19 hence the dragons :) 06:47:37 therefore the standard defines INT_MIN/INT_MAX constants, so you can portably check your divisions 06:47:43 -!- _danb_ [~user@203.38.189.126] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:47:47 you don't need to know the size of int 06:47:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:48:17 zvrba, or C might just give me a uint32 when i need one without a hassle 06:49:05 you have that in C99. 06:49:10 but uint32 might not exist. 06:49:54 C is designed on a much wider range of machines than what you think of 06:50:09 yes, it takes discipline to make portable programs 06:50:33 i can't see how making variable sizes variable helps 06:51:15 mandating that int is 32 bits makes things inefficient on machines that, for example, have only 64-bit registers 06:51:27 and can ONLY do 64-bit operations 06:51:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.53.247] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 06:54:30 zvrba, a fair point 06:55:14 though i'd gladly sacrifice a few cycles it takes to &0xffffffff stuff on some machines in favor of killing hundreds of remotely exploitable bugs due to integer errors in many widely used programs 06:56:02 then you're not in the target audience of people whom C was designed for. 06:57:04 probably. i'm hoping llvm will be a better match in the future. 07:00:35 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-xilolxyictykbtqw] has joined #scheme 07:06:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:06:49 -!- samth [~samth@38.110.160.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:19:10 http://ikarus-scheme.org/ is down. anyone remember where the source repository is? 07:21:52 bzr checkout --lightweight http://ikarus-scheme.org/ikarus.dev 07:21:55 according to 07:21:59 http://web.archive.org/web/20100924103513/http://ikarus-scheme.org/#downloads 07:22:00 http://tinyurl.com/3s5wzqn 07:22:08 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 07:22:26 Well, obviously that won't help, since http://ikarus-scheme.org/ is down. ;-) 07:22:33 obviously 07:22:59 d'oh, i recalled it was on something other than http :( 07:23:29 maybe someone in here or on comp.lang.scheme still has a checkout 07:23:41 jcowan might 07:23:47 *aoh* dreams aziz is finishing Ikarus 1.0 site 07:23:49 he is a collector of schemes 07:24:32 damn, I deleted my ikarus.dev 07:24:57 (probably because it was inexplicably huge) 07:25:52 aoh: maybe you can use Vicare in a pinch 07:26:08 AFAIK that was branched from the last alive ikarus upstream 07:26:14 aoh: https://code.launchpad.net/~aghuloum/ikarus/ikarus.dev 07:27:43 C-Keen, thanks 07:29:19 *C-Keen* fetches the branch 07:31:39 amoe, that one is <50M with --lightweight checkout after compiling 07:32:03 yeah, I think mine was not --lightweight 07:35:05 it is > 500MB and still fetching (not lightweight) 07:35:10 wtf 07:36:26 ski: thanks for the link 07:43:09 masm [~masm@bl15-65-212.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 07:45:03 wow it is 773MB total 07:50:11 yay bzr :/ 07:51:59 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 07:57:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:58 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:07:06 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:12:37 -!- X-Scale 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[Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:36 soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 13:23:25 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:33:12 Anyone aware of an acronym (in the spirit of `SICP', `PAIP', etc.) for Russell and Norvig's AI? 13:33:22 AIMA 13:33:24 I've heard it referred to as e.g. R&N. 13:33:36 sjamaan: Oh, of course! 13:34:18 `R&N' must be a K&Rism. 13:35:03 I've never heard it referred to as "R&N", actually 13:36:17 frenchfry [~frenchfry@rrcs-24-97-212-178.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:36:23 Crusty Underwear, The World. The world is nothing but a lie. From the time you are born to the time you die. The Lie. President Obomba hasn't figured it out yet. Some one will come along and try to sell you the world. A farm in the middle of lake Michigan. A lie like the rest of us. I wondered if Obomba ever belived in the Devil? When he finnaly gets it its all a lie and always was. Maybe he will finnaly realize that he was lied to. 13:36:27 -!- frenchfry [~frenchfry@rrcs-24-97-212-178.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:00 EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has joined #scheme 13:38:42 that was unusual 13:39:25 sounds like a spambot from comp.lang.lisp 13:39:42 it never ceases to amaze me how pretty S-expressions are... https://plus.google.com/100836058911699642153/posts/e7sTS3BMYnD is a post I wrote about constructive logic using S-expression syntax and it looks better than my notes for the class originally did :P 13:47:25 -!- kellar [~kellar4@31.210.182.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:29 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:02 rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 14:02:26 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 14:05:15 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:07:50 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 14:12:29 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 14:12:35 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:14:36 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #scheme 14:15:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has joined #scheme 14:17:09 contempt_ [~up@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 14:17:23 -!- contempt_ [~up@unaffiliated/contempt] has left #scheme 14:19:56 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 14:20:04 ijp [~user@host109-156-158-131.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 14:20:45 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:26:14 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:29:17 tupi [~david@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 14:41:31 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:55:07 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 15:04:35 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:08:57 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0/20110916091512]] 15:09:20 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:14:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:16:25 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-152-77.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:24:07 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:25:51 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:26:06 HG` [~HG@p579F77DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:46 *offby1* 's eyes glazed over :-| 15:27:46 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:29:35 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #scheme 15:38:29 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 15:38:48 kellar [~kellar4@31.210.182.33] has joined #scheme 15:39:57 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:47:55 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:53:35 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:58:44 C-Keen: you don't like cll, do you? 15:59:35 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:02:45 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 16:03:01 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:16 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:23 -!- AVRS [~Aleksej@wikimedia/AVRS] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:29 AVRS [~Aleksej@wikimedia/AVRS] has joined #scheme 16:13:45 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:17:28 mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:17:46 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:17:47 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 16:18:40 -!- AVRS [~Aleksej@wikimedia/AVRS] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:21:23 AVRS [~Aleksej@wikimedia/AVRS] has joined #scheme 16:23:46 samth [~samth@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com] has joined #scheme 16:25:35 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 16:26:36 -!- AVRS [~Aleksej@wikimedia/AVRS] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:27:14 AVRS [~Aleksej@wikimedia/AVRS] has joined #scheme 16:33:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:34:36 bluephoenix47 [~bluephoen@99-70-233-246.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:39:11 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 16:40:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41:05 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 16:42:48 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:44:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:46:45 DrAfk [~duck@user-24-236-92-111.knology.net] has joined #scheme 16:47:41 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 16:47:56 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: mithos28] 16:48:47 wingo [~wingo@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #scheme 16:49:04 elly: I was involved in some research concerning "computational philosophy" a while back; and we had an S-expression-based proposition calculus, too. It's pretty in the same way ASTs are, I suppose. 16:50:29 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:54 offby1: ? 16:51:21 klutometis: 'computational philosophy' = ? 16:52:48 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:12 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:00:40 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:03:32 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 17:03:47 qu1j0t3 [~qu1j0t3@vm4.telegraphics.com.au] has joined #scheme 17:04:00 zipace [~hi@drsd-d9ba8589.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 17:04:47 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:05:54 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 17:07:41 -!- stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:08 soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 17:16:00 arcfide [1000@dhcp-cs-244-96.cs.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 17:17:17 stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:18:11 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:22:22 -!- [1]confab is now known as confab 17:22:51 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:23:45 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 17:24:41 hmm, propositional is all NAND 17:26:31 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:56 elly: your post was too technical for me 17:32:00 too technical? oO 17:33:12 whitequark: I find it quite informative sometimes 17:33:42 whitequark: the attitude of some of the authors is questionable and it gets is fair share of trolls and trollbots but it is not too bad 17:34:34 my solution to SICP ex. 3.69 , adies after a few solutions with a memory error (mit-scheme). and so do the 3 distinct solutions I googled. challange? 17:42:45 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:53:40 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:55:36 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:58:07 -!- wingo [~wingo@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:08:25 wingo [~wingo@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #scheme 18:12:42 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:12:52 -!- wingo [~wingo@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:24:23 ijp` [~user@host109-154-211-128.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:27:29 -!- ijp [~user@host109-156-158-131.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:28:20 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:08 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 18:35:36 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:37:44 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 18:39:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 18:43:16 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:49 -!- bluephoenix47 [~bluephoen@99-70-233-246.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:45:29 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:26 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:49:41 -!- tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:39 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:51:43 -!- tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:31 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:08:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:10:06 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:16:56 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F77DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 19:19:01 -!- arcfide [1000@dhcp-cs-244-96.cs.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 19:20:19 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:26:53 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:18 frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-95-58.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 19:32:41 -!- zipace [~hi@drsd-d9ba8589.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:04 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:37:19 elly: Just like psychologists abandoned Freud for statistical techniques to remain "relevant"; philosophers have ditched Plato for Bayes, apparently. 19:39:04 Saw this in the GNU make manual, by the way: `a := $($($(z))).' 19:40:09 zedstar [~john@cpc3-haye16-2-0-cust189.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 19:40:57 -!- zedstar [~john@cpc3-haye16-2-0-cust189.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:40:57 zedstar [~john@fsf/member/zedstar] has joined #scheme 19:40:58 I call that the ``make-corollary to Greenspun's tenth;'' will people stop at nothing to animate the corpse of pseudo-meta-programming? 19:46:06 we know stallman's proclivities in this regard :) 19:46:37 it's wall-esque, one might say? 19:52:47 -!- woonie [~woonie@137.132.252.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:00:37 peterhil` [~peterhil@GYYYKMCDXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 20:04:58 Blkt [~user@82.84.156.209] has joined #scheme 20:05:55 good evening everyone 20:06:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:08:06 qu1j0t3: `Wall-esque' in its sigil 20:08:09 -richness? 20:09:39 klltkr [~klltkr@dsl78-143-205-208.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:11:13 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:11:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:12:22 klutometis: and its general liberality 20:22:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has joined #scheme 20:26:11 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:03 -!- AVRS [~Aleksej@wikimedia/AVRS] has left #scheme 20:35:15 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:36 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 20:50:37 sicp is weird. it postulates hypothetical procedures get and put in section 2.4, before implementing them. 20:50:50 and asks the reader to code something against those (nonexistent) procedures 20:52:22 zvrba: Hypothesis Driven Development 20:52:24 yeah it does that quite a bit 20:52:40 haha 20:52:52 anyway, i'm implementing them myself :P 20:53:03 going ahead the contents a bit :P 20:55:12 I think the point is that they want you to think about how your code should work, rather than actually playing around with it until it works. 20:55:28 Or at least that's what I thought they were doing 20:56:47 williambr [~williambr@host86-178-177-146.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:56:53 http://reprog.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/are-you-one-of-the-10-percent/ 20:57:20 fds: related --^ 20:57:40 wtf 20:58:31 cky: I've read it before. :-) (Possibly after it had been linked to in #stackoverflow) 20:58:54 oh 20:58:58 it's just because of off-by-one issues? 21:00:23 copumpkin: I linked to that post because it advocated getting the code 100% right the first time, without any testing-as-you-go. 21:00:33 ah yeah 21:01:01 It requires people to use their brains, and not "playing around with it until it works" (as fds said). 21:01:47 well, i feel stupid writing code that I can't write :P 21:01:51 erm, run 21:03:53 zvrba: This is an excellent exercise for you, then. 21:04:03 zvrba: Do that binary search challenge. In Scheme, if you please. 21:04:19 zvrba: No testing the answer until you're 100% sure it's all good. 21:05:06 zvrba: This is also known as the principle of "wishful thinking"; Jesus: I can't tell you how often this has come in handy, especially in job interviews. 21:05:22 klutometis: Hehehehe. 21:05:40 klutometis: Seriously, at many places (like Google), you code on a whiteboard, not a computer. 21:05:48 So you must get the details right without any computer testing. 21:05:56 In the midst of some hairy, recursive combinatorics problem where I have to think on my feet with a half-expired dry-erase marker, I can say: "let me abstract this as-of-yet unwritten subproblem into a procedure." 21:05:57 (Re interviews.) 21:06:30 klutometis: Steve Yegge says, bring your own markers to the interview, so you don't have to worry about running out. 21:06:39 -!- EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has left #scheme 21:06:59 *qu1j0t3* would feel funny taking markers to google. 21:07:28 but yeah. in general that's a fine suggestion 21:07:32 cky: hey, i passed all interviews with google :p 21:07:39 got a job offer. 21:07:43 zvrba: well done. 21:07:46 and politely declined :p 21:07:48 zvrba: Good job! You did better than I did' then. 21:07:58 zvrba: I got to the on-site interviews, but flunked. 21:09:28 That was 3.5 years ago. I haven't since been very inclined to reapply, despite regular prodding from Google recruiters. 21:09:41 cky: It helps, though, to whiteboard things in a top-down fashion once in a while; especially when the algorithm is governed by some general recursion. 21:09:42 the fun in the coding is mostly making my own get/put and making them run :) 21:09:44 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:09:45 -!- cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:58 *qu1j0t3* uses pencil and paper constantly 21:10:08 cky: It's like Husserl's art of "bracketing the existence of the world," i.e. taking it for granted and moving on (temporarily). 21:10:18 klutometis: :-) 21:11:02 cky: I, too, nearly floundered during my Google interviews when it came to dynamic programming; ended up turning them down, though. 21:11:09 Thinking of re-applying, if they'll have me. 21:11:16 *zvrba* --> sleep. 'night 21:12:41 I'm not sure how I'd feel about working for Google. Part of me thinks that they're the most exciting company on the planet at the moment, but the other part thinks they're a bit... corporate. :-P 21:12:44 klutometis: Cool, if you do it, good luck! 21:12:47 zvrba: Have fun! 21:12:54 *fds* might just be designed for academia. 21:13:16 fds: Why do you say that? 21:13:21 I'm not looking for a job at the moment, though, so I don't need to decide. 21:13:33 cky: Which part? 21:13:41 i get the feeling that if i worked there i would have to use java a lot 21:13:51 which is a significant turn-off 21:14:32 fds: I'll tell you this, though: the air in the Santa Monica offices was moist with evaporated Geek-sweat; and the windows were condensated with the same. 21:14:55 They've since moved to Venice Beach; might have to check out their new gig. 21:15:39 s/gig/digs/. The corporate vibe is definitely perceptible; maybe less so than e.g. big-pharma. 21:15:46 klutometis: Heh, yeah. I bet you'd meet a lot of cool people working for Google. 21:16:05 *fds* needs to meet more mega-geeks. :-P 21:16:20 fds: Re designed-for-academia. 21:16:39 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 21:16:48 Working around smart people sharpens your game somehow by osmosis, I think; same can be said for academia, but the pressure to ship is slightly different, isn't it? 21:17:04 klutometis: I think it's a matter of expectation. 21:17:15 wingo [~wingo@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #scheme 21:17:19 klutometis: If you are around smart people, you are expected, in order to fit in, to perform better than if you aren't. 21:17:54 cky: The same principle supposedly applies to tennis and chess; no wonder smart people cluster together like gas stations. 21:18:11 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:18:15 :-) 21:18:40 *sjamaan* could use a cluster of smartness about now 21:18:43 does this also hold true for who you associate with on the internets? 21:19:00 It feels like my brain is rotting 21:19:10 turbofail: Maybe; but in a weak sense, I think. Sort of like Van der Waals interactions. 21:19:12 cky: Ah, I don't know. I just seem to like the atmosphere around universities, and the particular type of misfits that I've found amongst the staff. It's a bit more laid-back and quirky rather than energetic and corporate, perhaps? 21:19:14 -!- williambr [~williambr@host86-178-177-146.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:19:39 fds: Depends on which universities. Some are all about driving enrolment. 21:20:12 sjamaan: I, too, experienced this at you-know-where; our collaboration, in fact, was the most stimulating thing I ever experienced there. 21:20:30 klutometis: Did you have programmer colleagues at all? 21:20:33 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@dsl78-143-205-208.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:20:48 cky: Hm, well, here in the UK the only students universities compete for are international students. ;-) 21:21:09 Well, yes, they rake in the $$$. 21:21:17 Indeed 21:21:25 sjamaan: Nope; it was solus ipse. You were my one colleague. 21:21:35 klutometis: That's gotta suck 21:21:42 fds: So it's not quite true that universities are not "corporate". 21:21:45 At least I have a few programmers around me 21:22:07 But they're not really at the same level I'm at 21:22:18 The work doesn't require it, either 21:22:22 :-( 21:22:28 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.156.209] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:31 Just some boring webdev 21:22:40 All I do is bugfixing/maintenance 21:22:49 cky: You're right, of course. They need money to run. But, it's a unique industry that has a different dynamic to the tech or finance industries, for example. 21:22:58 fds: Sure. 21:23:22 sjamaan: At first I was like: "Great! I'm judge and jury; architect and implementor!" That gets old, though, pretty quick; as soon, in fact, as you look around and say: "Is there someone in the house I can whiteboard with? Bueller? Bueller?" 21:24:25 hehe, I can imagine 21:24:45 You really need someone to bounce ideas off of 21:24:54 It helps if they can ask smart questions too 21:25:16 My old boss (who is now a colleague) is not a programmer, but at least he's smart and can really help me get unstuck 21:27:38 arcfide [1000@dhcp-cs-244-96.cs.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 21:38:15 -!- kellar [~kellar4@31.210.182.33] has left #scheme 21:39:44 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:40:02 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 21:40:22 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:31 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 21:44:39 -!- cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:34 sjamaan: Plato called it `dialectic;' it's still relevant, I think, two millenia later. 21:46:57 ``IRC: The new dialectic for social programmers in exile.'' 21:46:58 -!- wingo [~wingo@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:47:17 haha 21:47:29 And by `new', I mean: `new in 1988.' 21:47:31 nah, nothing those dumb old ancients invented is relevant any more 21:47:35 heh 21:48:09 wingo [~wingo@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #scheme 22:09:38 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:10:53 -!- arcfide [1000@dhcp-cs-244-96.cs.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 22:11:59 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:14:16 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:14:19 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:35 -!- wingo [~wingo@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23:28 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 22:25:51 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 22:27:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-152-77.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:39 klutometis, hegel? 22:30:03 guys 22:30:04 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1HS6hB9wwQ 22:32:28 ysph [~user@131.204.27.195] has joined #scheme 22:33:18 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-71.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:33:38 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-71.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:35:57 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:36:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:14 weirdo: Good point; Hegel's dialectic is some weird, recursive monstrosity, though. The base-case is the Weltgeist, I think. 22:37:50 klutometis, what about Marxian dialectics? 22:37:56 if there is such a thing 22:38:01 please enlighten philosophy noob 22:38:27 Not sure what the Weltgeist of programming looks like. Is it like Deep Thought in HGG? 22:38:46 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:41:25 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:46:53 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-172.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:26 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 22:48:15 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:49:13 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:05 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfcb8f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:51:36 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbeca4b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 22:52:27 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:53:03 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-153-103.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:35 weirdo: As far as I understood, Marx did a superficial translation of Hegelian dialectic; effectively doing a `s/spirit/class/g' on the source. 22:57:36 thanks. i have a friend studying philosophy, having a degree. he said that studies were basically, "in year X, Y said that Z" 22:57:44 without any overarching consistence 22:58:21 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-153-103.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 23:05:06 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:10:48 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:11:57 weirdo: That sounds about right; I left because that sort of thing replaced fundamental thinking. And also because my confederates refused to learn German and Ancient Greek. 23:12:10 That's one place, I'm afraid, where Wall's first virtue of laziness does not pay off. 23:13:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:41 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-95-58.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:16:01 Fundamental thinking is hard. Let's go ideology-shopping. 23:17:45 jcowan: Heh; that's damn good. Would you be inclined to add that to your sig-pool? 23:19:07 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:22:32 Okay. 23:23:43 Done 23:23:57 I once got a detailed account of the problems with my Dennett and Bennett signature. 23:24:07 Of course it did come from my brother, so what the hell. 23:24:35 Consider the matter of Analytic Philosophy. Dennett and Bennett are well-known. Dennett rarely or never cites Bennett, so Bennett rarely or never cites Dennett. There is also one Dummett. By their works shall ye know them. However, just as no trinities have fourth persons (Zeppo Marx notwithstanding), Bummett is hardly known by his works. Indeed, Bummett does not exist. It is part of the function of this and other e-mail message 23:24:53 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:25:25 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:26 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:26:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has joined #scheme 23:26:42 jcowan: That artifact is at least internally coherent, isn't it? I can't think of any criticisms off-hand. 23:27:05 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 23:28:11 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:33 Internally, yes. 23:29:54 Unfortuantely I've forgotten what he said, something about how if the email was supposed to help create Bummett it was self-undermining. 23:30:42 -!- ysph [~user@131.204.27.195] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:31:24 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:33:02 jcowan: Ah, interesting; the last words above are, "this and other email-message . . ." I missed: ". . . s, therefore, to do what they can to create him." 23:33:46 It turns out that it's not internally coherent, then. 23:34:14 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:35:11 -!- samth [~samth@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:35:32 ysph [~user@131.204.27.195] has joined #scheme 23:38:18 (Bennett, Dennett, Hacker and Searl sounds like a formidable gang of four, by the way: .) 23:47:15 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 23:47:41 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 23:48:11 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:48:43 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:48:59 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex