00:05:43 eli: what should I be using for compatability with regular scheme? 00:07:55 doing anything useful in scheme requires more than r5rs 00:08:04 there will be no compatibility 00:08:17 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:44 I'm working through SICP, It's pretty useful so far. 00:08:56 -!- steveg2 [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:08:57 i'm obviously exaggerating a bit 00:09:05 obviously 00:09:43 but it's still pretty much true 00:18:35 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-59-17.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 00:19:18 eli: longer answer, I tried straight racket, not set-cdr!, so i switch to #lang r5rs, and then I couldn't (require) things, so I settled on (require r5rs/init) which seems to give me both, I'd be happy to hear of a better solution 00:25:19 kellar: The r5rs language in Racket is *really* *just* R5RS, which is an extremely limited language. 00:25:41 It's use is for people who want to be sure they write portable code, but otherwise it's pretty much useless. 00:25:52 (Because it is strict, that is.) 00:27:05 so what's the widest subset compatible with SICP, which allows mutable cons, and how do I enter it? 00:30:18 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:33:04 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@bd21c148.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: Out of quarters] 00:34:39 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 00:35:01 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:40:53 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 00:42:31 kellar: It's really best to avoid them. 00:42:51 If you want SICP, look for neilv's package, which is specific for that. 00:42:54 eli++ 00:44:28 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:37 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:32 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit 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ok this iS creepy 03:56:03 -!- Chat6239 is now known as juggalette 03:56:15 -!- juggalette is now known as juggaleTte 03:56:43 you already figured out that I've siphoned all your money from your bank account? 03:56:59 -!- juggaleTte is now known as wicked_juggalett 03:57:43 bull cause in only 14 03:59:08 -!- phao [phao@177.30.108.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:59:43 kreepers 03:59:49 -!- wicked_juggalett [somsah@app9.chatmosphere.org] has quit [Client Quit] 04:02:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.99] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 04:13:15 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-155-90.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ciao] 04:17:02 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:24:02 <_danb_> I'm struggling to put meaning on that last exchange 04:26:12 -!- DrAfk [~duck@user-24-236-92-111.knology.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:29:19 arcfide [~arcfide@c056773-v1822-01-static.hntninaa.cinergymetronet.net] has joined #scheme 04:44:20 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[~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has joined #scheme 05:42:24 I need some opinions 05:45:10 Walnuts taste bad. 05:46:37 foof: you ever use a web content management system before? 05:47:02 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-204-236-150-238.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:38 actually, I have to run... 05:47:42 yea 05:48:08 rudybot [~luser@ec2-204-236-150-238.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 05:49:09 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:54:34 that was a factual question 05:55:13 rudybot: seen duncanm 05:55:14 offby1: duncanm was seen in/on #scheme six days ago, saying "i always wondered why the do-form is so unpopular with Schemers, but loop is so popular with CLers", and then duncanm was seen in/on #scheme six days ago, saying "yeah, in fact, named lets are so easy to understand, i avoided using fold for a long time" 05:58:58 offby1: rudybot does memo's ? 06:04:51 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:07:21 -!- zanes [~zane@c-71-57-22-178.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:17:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:17:44 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 06:18:52 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 06:28:31 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:46:56 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:48:26 -!- ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-224-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:51:42 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:52:23 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:03:35 EM03: What about web content management systems? 07:03:57 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 07:04:05 do you think any of them are "good" levi ? 07:05:35 Heh. 07:05:43 Depends on what your needs are, I guess. 07:05:57 There are certainly enough of them. 07:08:04 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c056773-v1822-01-static.hntninaa.cinergymetronet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:09:35 -!- XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:11:40 EM03: What sort of use do you have for a web content management system? 07:12:04 I'm just curious what you think of them overall, which ones you would recommend / ones you would stay 10 ft from 07:14:42 Well, Drupal is pretty good at organizing and customizing data forms and allowing communities to contribute stuff. Joomla is another popular one, but it's more oriented towards a single provider group managing the content for the consumers. Then there's Plone, which has a bunch of document workflow management features so it's useful for keeping track of changes and getting them checked off before they go live, etc. 07:15:03 They're all overkill if you just want a blog or something fairly simple, though. 07:15:37 There are some simple frameworks that let you write a bunch of pages in Markdown and have them automatically hooked together and displayed with common formatting. 07:15:38 I've seen many large production sites actually go on Wordpress. 07:15:57 I wouldn't be surprised if there's a project or two like that written in Scheme. 07:16:06 (to make this conversation somewhat on-topic... ;) ) 07:17:40 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-184-138.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 07:23:22 on instrual company used a wiki (in 1990s) and a web-based leasing system for about 10 years, both of which were written in scheme (and running on scsh) 07:23:31 industrial even 07:24:03 they probably thought it was some new hip web framework when i proposed it... :) 08:05:59 masm [~masm@2.80.138.34] has joined #scheme 08:18:32 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:18:47 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:20:18 Burlingk [~burlingk@softbank221067045171.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 08:25:19 XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 08:43:09 aoh: why did they finally switch away? 08:45:29 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 08:56:05 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has joined #scheme 09:08:24 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:13:21 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 09:18:54 dr9002 [6d782464@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.120.36.100] has joined #scheme 09:19:52 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:23:42 EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b42f8.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #scheme 09:24:58 -!- EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b42f8.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:04 kellar, it was supposed to be a temporary solution until they get their SAP running. it took a while, and based on what i've heard the transition wasn't exactly smooth :) 09:33:45 fun war story, i once spent a day debugging one report trying to figure out why the number i was getting was different from what their other system was giving. turns out i got the correct result after switching disabling exact arithmetic. it also sped up the harderst report from ~2s to <1s, which they liked :) 09:36:11 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 09:40:44 i think "the mythical man month" has something along the lines of shaving an hour of a 24 hour computer would get you nods, but making your editor finish that search&replace in 1 second instead of two would you get free beer from everyone on the team 09:41:17 s/computer / computer job / 09:42:39 I wonder where the HCI people place the "interactive" boundary at, latency-wise. 09:43:03 or "immediate" for that matter. 09:45:08 -!- dr9002 [6d782464@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.120.36.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:45:17 google had an interesting experiment some time ago, where adding more results to the page and making load n% faster caused something like ~n% loss of traffic 09:45:55 s/faster/slower/, multitask typing fail 09:55:33 kellar: HCI? 09:57:21 Human-computer interaction. user-interface basically. 10:02:44 How would I do inheritance in scheme? any ideas? I though about having the dispatch table-driven and having message to alter the value of entries in the table. is there a better way? 10:23:12 gavino [~g@pool-71-189-7-58.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:23:19 :) 10:35:53 kellar: eventually, all interitance reduces to dispatch tables in one or another way, I'd say 10:36:34 *any kind of inheritance 10:41:06 true. I'm interested in a way of implementing that that is less clumsy in terms of usage. the suggested method means that a constructor for a subclass instantiates the superclass, and then repeatedly invokes the dispatch to replace it's methods by their overriden implementations. before returning the new object. is their a nicer way of doing that? 10:42:39 maybe a universal constructor that takes a class template in the form of a symbol-list and a hashlist of method names and procedure objects , and returns and object. 10:43:04 hah, this has just dawned on me: "What kind of sauce is the most functional? Curry, of course."  10:44:17 kellar: if you are copying superclass's methods to a subclass, then you would not be able to reopen the superclass and modify it 10:44:20 is that intended? 10:46:01 yuk yuk 10:46:16 as in copy vs reference? and reopen and modify at runtime you mean? 10:47:07 kellar: yes 10:49:59 whitequark: I didn't have that functionality in mind. so it's not supported. it's not obvious to me that either option is "the right thing". it depends. 10:51:47 is ti difficult to manipulate strings from scheme? 10:51:54 whitequark: I see what you mean though, invocation could just be a sequential lookup through a series of frames, like the scheme environment model. 10:51:56 I find awk is nice 10:52:42 that's actually a more flexible way of doing it. good. thanks. 10:53:43 kellar: yeah. it's done in Ruby that way, and it hurts performance a bit, but it allows for a much more flexible model 10:57:09 (actually, you can do a bit of cache magic which eliminates almost all of the performance penalty. if you're interested, I may find that article) 10:57:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 10:57:46 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-184-138.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:58:10 whitequark: please. how do they handle the case where you want to "freeze" a method, disconnect it from changes upstream? you just insert a binding in the local environment? 11:02:08 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:03:56 kellar: they do not do that at all 11:04:55 actually, this is considered as a problem in current Ruby ("monkey-patching"), and there is an experiment which adds support for "freezing". sadly, I haven't investigated how it works yet. 11:06:58 regarding the performance, here is an article by jruby developer: http://blog.headius.com/2011/08/invokedynamic-in-jruby-constant-lookup.html 11:06:59 http://tinyurl.com/43dj5kd 11:09:09 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:11:35 thanks 11:15:46 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-117.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:16:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-117.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:23:08 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 11:36:14 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:36:44 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 11:37:17 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:39 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 11:42:39 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.138.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:51:08 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:30 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 12:01:04 rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 12:14:14 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:21:35 -!- gavino [~g@pool-71-189-7-58.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:23 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 12:36:20 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:37:26 xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has joined #scheme 12:40:25 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 12:58:42 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:03:27 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 13:18:38 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:48 ruby has mutable constants? 13:22:58 *kellar* rolls eyes and keels over 13:24:59 I hereby petition for oxymoron-free PLs 13:25:13 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:26:00 kellar: well, lisp has mutable constants too. i got unpleasantly surprised by modifying a list literal, for example :P 13:30:28 whitequark: did you solve your recursion problem? 13:30:54 GreatGoof [~GreatGoof@122.179.87.65] has joined #scheme 13:35:03 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-164-107.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 13:49:54 kellar: Java has mutable constants too, if your constant is bound to a mutable object. :-P I see it as a feature and not a bug, though. 13:54:36 blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 13:58:54 -!- GreatGoof [~GreatGoof@122.179.87.65] has quit [Quit: GreatGoof] 13:59:41 kellar: it does, but I think that (according to the fact you've asked this question), you have probably misunderstood the article 14:01:29 cky: Ruby constants may be immutable in this sense. I.e. there is a common pattern: CONSTANT = [1, 2].freeze 14:02:33 you can try to do CONSTANT = "something" after that, and this will yield a warning (I personally think it should be an error instead. Not sure why it is still a warning; compatibility maybe) 14:03:58 i'm ambivalent towards ruby. better to grab perl6 :p 14:04:41 (by the way, Ruby's metaprogramming allows you to do practically everything you can imagine, including a lot of oxymorons, but it's a feature.) 14:05:03 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfca26.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:05:14 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfcb8d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 14:08:05 . 14:12:53 zvrba: scheme does not have mutable constants 14:13:10 attempting to mutate a constant does not have a defined effect 14:13:32 implementations should detect those attempts, i think... 14:16:36 hmm. I've just looked at Ruby ISO draft. according to it, the behavior is also implementation-defined. 14:17:44 lindi- [~quassel@tachyon.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 14:27:54 vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:35:26 masm [~masm@2.80.138.34] has joined #scheme 14:37:35 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:43:12 I don't care what language it is, and if you get a warning if you do it. if it's mutable, don't call it a constant. 14:44:33 -!- xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:43 I wouldn't consider "mutable constant" to be a feature just like I wouldn't consider a "feline dog" to be anything but a misunderstanding 14:45:49 perhaps I have misunderstood, that's been known to happened. 14:45:53 mutability of "constants" is usually just an underchecking the code for speed 14:47:02 "We never wanted it to be possible, but preventing it is too costly" 14:48:08 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:48:16 Parmenides was wrong. 14:48:37 :) 14:51:53 whitequark: that article was precisely concerned with optimizing away an artifical overhhead associated with mutable constants, so the VM would treat them real constants and optimize them away. 14:52:48 besides, coining the term "mutable constants puts you in a bind with regards to nomenclature. will we have to talk about "constant constants"? 14:56:35 kellar: ah, yes. after re-reading it, I understand my mistake. that was either the wrong article, or I have not rembered it correctly 14:56:53 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 14:57:00 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has joined #scheme 14:57:19 actually, the thing I wanted to point you at was all that MethodHandle and SwitchPoint stuff, which allows you to achieve fast method lookup as well 14:57:34 the fast non-constant-constant lookup is a side effect 14:58:08 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:28 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:00:18 MichaelRaskin, an ability to assign something to a constant twice is implementation-defined. An ability to explicitly undef a constant (Klass.remove_const :CONSTANT) is well-defined by standard and is intentional. 15:05:28 whitequark: that - I really don't understand. It seemed like tricks to get the jvm to optimize correctly. I gleaned no algorithm which was generally applicable. for example in a straight scheme implementation of tiered method lookup. If you can find the article you were thinking about, I'd be glad to have a reference. 15:06:00 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:06:06 Explicit constant undefining is legal sometimes. For example, Rails (which itself can load for 10-15 seconds) uses it to reload user-written code, and do it fast. (Not that I'm making an excuse for a questionable feature and slow parser.) 15:07:12 kellar: I'll try to omit implementation details and explain what I understood from it. 15:08:36 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:20 In a dynamic language (or, in this case, a dynamic OOP model), a great chunk of the time spent in VM code itself is dedicated to method lookup, i.e. traversing the class hierarchy and searching the method in dispatch tables. You cannot hardwrite the superclass' methods in a child class dispatch table, as that would make extending/updating the superclass at runtime impossible. Hence, you attach a method lookup cache to each class and invalidate i 15:13:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-213-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:14:11 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 15:14:17 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:15:33 that's it? 15:15:43 yep. pretty obvious, actually. 15:18:08 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-79-17.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:22:19 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-86-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 15:22:43 yeah, it makes sense to substitute a slow dispatch and fast update for a fast dispatch and slow invalidation. but now you have to manage the invalidation process, propagating the changes, you have to synchronize the change across all classes so they all have a consistent view of the universe at any point in time, and now invalidation has become a global lock (though infrequently taken) followed by an update storm. it's a solution with it's own problems. 15:28:26 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:29:54 kellar: you can eliminate the update storm for most of the methods by populating the cache lazily 15:33:07 true. 15:35:14 ijp [~user@host109-156-158-131.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 15:37:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-158-66.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:37:22 can I see your work on OOP? I'm curious of how it looks and works 15:37:30 but now each object has to be registered to a class hirerchy for events and I have to centrally invalidate all of them. how would that scale if I had a lot of objects? 15:38:35 why not just import CLOS? 15:38:39 there's nothing I can show you. it's very primitive. I'm just starting to think about the issues. 15:39:19 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 15:39:19 kellar: in Ruby, only classes actually have (instance) methods. When you need to add a method to a single object (i.e. singleton method), a singleton class is dynamically created and attached to that object. 15:39:31 As you don't generally have a lot of singleton objects, that scales well. 15:40:21 antono [~antono@178.121.236.15] has joined #scheme 15:40:35 Like, even if you have "class A; def a; end; end; 100.times { A.new }", an invalidation will only affect one object, class A. 15:40:56 a class is an object? 15:41:15 you mean all methods are static? 15:41:44 kellar: yep, everything in Ruby is an object 15:41:55 I'm not sure what do you mean by "all methods are static" 15:42:19 I don't know ruby, as you can tell, so that sounds strange to me. 15:43:10 kellar, duck typoing 15:43:19 kellar: Ruby has an interesting type system, especially when it comes to eigenclasses. :-) 15:43:21 everything in ruby is virtual 15:44:02 cky: it was completely fucked up in 1.8 (actually, I did not managed to understand it), but it is pretty good in 1.9 15:44:30 whitequark: I'm not aware of what changed in 1.9 in regard to the type system, but I'll take your word for it. :-) 15:44:52 cky: let me find an image. you'll see the differences immediately. 15:44:57 :-) 15:45:47 kellar: The key distinction of Ruby vs other languages is the concept of an eigenclass (otherwise known as a singleton class). That means an _object instance_ can have its own unique class. 15:45:59 much to learn, and it looks interesting. 15:46:09 cky: http://mccraigmccraig.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/ruby-eigenclass.png 15:46:20 kellar: For example, "42" is a string. However, given a _specific instance_ of that string, you can open its eigenclass and introduce behaviour specific to _that instance only_. 15:46:50 cky: that's not actually the best application for that feature ;) 15:47:01 whitequark: No shit. :-) 15:47:14 ruby isn't a really good example for anything 15:47:25 whitequark: I was getting to explaining that Ruby classes are all instances of Class, but each with its own eigenclass that specifies class-specific behaviour. 15:47:26 for instance, its lexical environment access isn't O(1) 15:47:53 weirdo: it is. look at YARV bytecode 15:48:10 (if I understand you correctly, and you refer to local variable lookup) 15:48:14 whitequark, in 1.8 there was some code to modify the lexenv on the fly 15:48:20 later i kinda' lost track 15:49:21 ruby isn't known for great performance 15:49:23 weirdo: by the way, I've implemented an 1.9-compatible VM. in 1.9, lvar lookup is done by one or two indexed accesses on low level 15:49:24 whitequark: have you read the amop? 15:49:35 wingo: amop? 15:49:43 art of the metaobject protocol 15:49:50 yes, it's an awesome book 15:49:55 read it. :) 15:49:58 a must-read for any implementor 15:50:07 *cky* must obtain a copy. :-P 15:50:08 kellar: check out jruby or rubinius. with invokedynamic, it is blazingly fast, and rubinius is pretty good too. it's just the MRI which is slow and clutchy 15:50:26 *cky* studies the diagram from whitequark. 15:51:01 thanks for the book reference, I'll check it out 15:51:03 cky, get a torrent :) /me hides 15:51:21 whitequark: In one of my Stack Overflow answers, I described a use of eigenclasses for implementing a poor-man's state machine. ;-) 15:51:40 whitequark: Not the canonical use of eigenclasses, but I thought it was neat. ;-) 15:52:07 cky: have you thought of founding IORCC, International Obfuscated Ruby Code Contest? :) 15:52:49 a state machine. that's impressive. may I look at it? 15:52:59 whitequark: Sure, I'll find you the link. 15:53:03 (and also I wonder if it will run on my VM.) 15:53:56 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2505067/class-self-idiom-in-ruby/2505077#2505077 15:53:57 http://tinyurl.com/3mqcad5 15:55:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 15:55:27 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:55:36 whitequark: Lol re IORCC. :-P 15:56:12 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:13 aha, I recall that unicorn 15:57:07 whitequark: That code example is actually extracted from some code I wrote for work for parsing Excel files using POI. POI's Excel parsing has two modes, one that is like DOM and one that is like SAX. I chose the latter, hence the use of a state machine. 15:57:12 whitequark: Lol, hehehe. 15:57:47 (Needless to say, the work program used JRuby.) 15:58:19 so that's how you actually make sense of SAX. 15:59:42 http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Thinking-Parallel-Programming 16:00:08 the first 20 minutes is guy steele disassembling a punchcard he coded 40 years ago. amazing stuff. 16:00:12 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has joined #scheme 16:03:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.196.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:05:09 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-128-70.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:07:55 cky: Not sure if I should upvote your answer. On one side, it's neat, but on the other, it currently has a score of 42. 16:07:59 That's a tough decision. 16:09:22 ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-224-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:12:41 hahha 16:12:41 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:55 whitequark: well, you can upvote, then I can downvote, and everybody's happy. 16:18:02 why is there so much talk about ruby in a scheme channel? :P 16:18:56 wisey [~Steven@host86-164-93-171.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 16:19:55 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:20:25 zvrba: after encountering Scheme, I had some thoughts of Ruby being a dialect of Scheme 16:20:53 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 16:22:36 aha 16:25:34 I guess drracket is written in racket. Does it have some kind of JIT? 16:25:48 -!- vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:19 -!- Burlingk [~burlingk@softbank221067045171.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:28:31 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:07 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:46:27 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:58:04 whitequark: Lol re keeping the score at 42. ;-) 16:58:32 whitequark: Yes, Racket has a JIT. 17:01:42 cky: on my 1.66Ghz Atom, drracket is best described as "infuriatingly slow". 17:01:54 UI latency is beyond any limit 17:02:02 On _any_ kind of Atom, any program can be described as infuriatingly slow. ;-) 17:02:15 *leppie* concurs 17:02:20 :-) 17:02:50 I recently put Windows 8 Developer Preview on my netbook. I will have to see how it goes. ;-) 17:03:06 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:03:31 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 17:05:06 ok, I may accept a Ruby IDE being completely unusable on Atom (through the ide itself is not written in Ruby at all) 17:05:21 but Scheme one... 17:05:49 that's quite sad. 17:07:25 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08:59 whitequark: +1 17:11:30 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:18 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 17:18:16 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 17:20:12 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:36:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:40:31 -!- antono [~antono@178.121.236.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:42:37 whitequark: Hahahaha. 17:46:58 cky: any solutions? :D 17:47:04 apart from throwing out my netbook. 17:47:06 vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:47:30 -!- offby1 is now known as offby1bot 17:47:43 -!- offby1bot is now known as offby1 17:53:24 antono [~antono@178.121.199.149] has joined #scheme 17:55:45 whitequark, don't use an ide? 17:56:45 no complaints here with an 1.6ghz atom. you can even compile chromium on it given a spare day :) 17:57:09 I lol'd at chromium. 17:57:18 I think it's closer to a week. 17:57:43 apart from that, IDEs exist for a reason 17:57:44 nope, i really do compile it a few times a week on one :) 17:58:38 whitequark, lots of people use emacs or vi for their scheming. worth giving a shot. 17:58:51 well, maybe. recompiling linux kernel was enough for me. it's pitiful when you turn on some minor feature, and it invalidates every single file. 17:59:40 aoh, at the moment, I find gedit to be a bit better than both vim and emacs 17:59:47 seriously 18:00:38 haven't used it, but i've heard it's surprisingly usable 18:00:47 -!- vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:01:17 in console stuff however you can keep repls, editors etc in a screen and don't have to switch windows when doing many things, which is nice 18:02:26 I'm using awesome 18:02:47 it's like screen, but for gui 18:02:52 (in some sense) 18:03:30 ... not something easy to google, that :) 18:03:59 http://awesome.naquadah.org 18:04:13 it's a tiling window manager 18:04:48 ok, it seems a lot like xmonad 18:05:05 or stumpwm 18:05:06 xmonad?.. is that related to haskell? 18:05:12 yes 18:05:17 written in it, yes 18:05:26 *weirdo* uses Microsoft Windows 7 Business Enterprise Technology Solutions 18:06:47 *whitequark* finds monads as a concept easy, but haskell as a language impenetrable 18:07:00 weirdo, which window manager does that use? 18:07:10 aoh, none. it's not eks-elevent 18:07:13 s/t$// 18:07:24 it uses the explorer.exe Desktop Technology 18:07:32 -!- kellar [~kellar4@94.230.84.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:07:43 kellar [~kellar4@94.230.84.229] has joined #scheme 18:07:45 weirdo: you've forgot two "Enterprise"s there 18:07:58 :) 18:09:26 when connecting to my Alix3c2 box, i use tmux as my "manager" 18:10:14 pure functional languages look weird to me. they avoid side effects, and programming is all about side effects. 18:10:21 you may as well turn off your computer. 18:10:41 you know, to avoid any of that pesky side effects like actually getting something done. 18:11:09 (either this, or I misunderstand everything about them) 18:11:14 whitequark, you might as well create a new universe with each REPL computation 18:11:42 there are monads, though 18:11:45 weirdo, that reminds me of quantum suicide 18:12:16 -!- ijp [~user@host109-156-158-131.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: meh] 18:13:12 i think quite the opposite. even in scheme it's generally best to try to be functional to make more composable and reasonable code. 18:14:13 in functional style you need to explicitly make a knot out of the spaghetti to make a mess, which at least for me makes it harder to write bad code with lots of cross-dependencies. 18:14:51 spaghetti, huh 18:14:53 well even when writing C i make a habit of not doing action-at-distance 18:15:02 pizza code! 18:16:35 weirdo, your nick is surprisingly appropriate here 18:16:49 (sometimes, through, I think that it should be the default for this channel.) 18:17:51 *ski* . o O ( .. programming is not per se about side-effects, it's about effects ) 18:18:46 well, haskell programmers do refer to i/o as to side effect, doesn't them? 18:18:52 *don't 18:21:44 monads were basically invented to be able to write c in haskell, but safely :) 18:22:49 there were for example more stream-oriented approaches to io in earlier languages, like program evaluating to a stream of bytes or vectors which were the output, but everyone jumped immediately to monadic io once it was invented 18:23:46 -!- kellar [~kellar4@94.230.84.229] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:23:50 purely functional and side-effects aren't all that well defined concepts. a c-program is purely functional if you look it from a right (wrong) angle 18:24:31 kellar [~kellar4@94.230.84.229] has joined #scheme 18:24:40 yes, it's a matter of syntax (obviously, since Haskell was for a long time compiled via C) 18:25:41 iirc the syntax of haskell borrows heavily from miranda and other earlier languages 18:26:16 (and i was referring to abstract, not concrete, syntax above) 18:27:49 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:38:44 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:16 rudybot: (expt 0 0) 18:53:17 aoh: your sandbox is ready 18:53:17 aoh: ; Value: 1 18:54:39 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:59:28 hm. I wonder what will happen if... 18:59:48 rudybot: ((lambda (a) (a a)) (lambda (a) (a a))) 18:59:48 whitequark: your sandbox is ready 18:59:58 whitequark: error: with-limit: out of time 19:00:04 duh. 19:03:10 :) 19:03:23 I'm not saying rudybot is infallible, but it has had a fair amount of "hardening" 19:03:30 easy stuff is unlikely to hose it 19:04:35 that thingy I've written to make rudybot hang somehow reminds me of y combinator 19:04:40 I never understood it. 19:05:15 rudybot: ((lambda (a) (a a a)) (lambda (a b) (a a b))) 19:05:25 aoh: error: with-limit: out of time 19:05:51 no time to hit stack limit then :) 19:07:21 rudybot: (letrec-syntax ((foo (syntax-rules () ((foo . a) (foo (a . a)))))) (foo foo)) 19:07:30 aoh: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory) 19:07:40 error: evaluator: too many "a"s 19:09:06 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:09:32 rudybot: (kill yourself) 19:09:32 whitequark: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: kill in module: 'program 19:10:05 rudybot: piss off and die 19:10:06 *offby1: I did and I will. Still will not answer my question unless you have another manual then I have. Which I do not think is impossible but pretty much doubt. And If I did support like you, I could do it in hundred channels at the same time. 19:10:39 lolwhat? 19:11:53 rudybot: explain how your brain works 19:11:53 *offby1: hmm, apparently i'm having brain problems again. i did (require 'dbus) -> dbus, but M-x dbusTAB yields only dbus-handle-event , not any of the couple dozen dbus commands that C-h a dbus shows. And M-: (dbus-list-activatable-names) pops up "Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-function dbus-call-method)" 19:12:11 rudybot: should I invest in an annuity? 19:12:11 *offby1: I understood you wanted to use AucTex's preview functionality?!? 19:12:30 whitequark: rudybot responds semi-randomly 19:12:33 yep. using dbus indeed indicates brain problems. 19:13:08 offby1: yeah, I've once coded a (jabber) bot, too 19:15:12 whitequark: rudybot is pretty much the only coding-for-fun I've done in years. 19:24:20 oops. I've got a mind bug from scheme. 19:24:39 Now, parenthesized anything looks like a code for me (even this) 19:24:54 error: reference to undefined identifier: even 19:29:24 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:50 'even?' perhaps? 19:36:25 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:36:45 rudybot: (even? 'this) 19:36:46 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 19:36:46 *offby1: error: even?: expects argument of type ; given 'this 19:36:53 picky picky 19:38:03 soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 19:38:41 woonie [~woonie@175.156.210.15] has joined #scheme 19:39:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-158-66.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:58 *ski* . o O ( "et tu, brute" ) 19:40:11 *zvrba* reads about FTL neutrinos 19:40:16 (supposedly FTL) 19:40:22 ski: caesar spoke Greek, not Latin, as all Roman upper class. 19:40:53 that's why the egyptians attacked the greek and not the romans ? 19:40:55 lol 19:41:19 pjb : ic, ty 19:49:48 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 19:52:01 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:55 -!- sjamaan [~sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:59:02 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:59:09 rudybot: seen Riastradh 19:59:09 leppie: Riastradh was seen in/on #scheme three days ago, saying "gnus is a multiparameter family of mailers, with a high-dimensional parameter space. Nobody has found good mailer in there, although there are many local optima.", and then Riastradh was seen quitting in/on fsf/member/riastradh three days ago, saying "Ping timeout: 248 seconds" 19:59:43 -!- antono [~antono@178.121.199.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:07:06 sjamaan_ [~sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 20:12:05 antono [~antono@178.121.128.236] has joined #scheme 20:14:16 neutrinos FTW 20:15:38 -!- sjamaan_ [~sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15:58 sjamaan_ [~sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 20:17:18 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 20:21:26 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:21:47 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:25:19 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:25:50 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has 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Quit] 22:32:20 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 22:33:05 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 22:35:00 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-5-4.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:43:28 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:18 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:14 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 22:50:57 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:51:36 -!- Intensity [5slrovgLJf@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:07:04 vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:31:31 Intensity [FA3dBcb7Yo@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 23:35:38 newsbad__com [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:37:17 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:49 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:47:24 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:49:44 eyra [c290166d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.144.22.109] has joined #scheme 23:50:53 -!- vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:51:53 hey 23:52:02 oi 23:52:03 could someone give me advice on my scheme code? 23:52:25 I can't answer that until you've paid. 23:52:40 >< 23:52:45 *qu1j0t3* kids 23:53:50 im trying to write a program that returns a list 23:54:03 i.e. if i run (i 5) it returns (1 2 3 4 5) 23:54:07 i've got this 23:54:09 (define (i x) (define (help x s) (if (null? x) s (help (- x 1) (cons 'x 's)) ) ) (help x '()) ) 23:54:13 woops 23:54:16 owww 23:54:19 mah haid 23:54:24 (define (i x) 23:54:32 (define (help x s) 23:54:45 eyra: the tradition around here is to use a paste site if it's more than a line or two 23:54:45 (if (null? x) 23:54:47 s 23:54:56 ahh ok 23:55:22 http://paste.pocoo.org/ e.g. 23:55:54 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 23:56:14 http://paste.org/pastebin/view/38804 23:56:59 Not sure why the code isen't working 23:57:07 no losss 23:57:23 x is an integer 23:57:25 blackened_ [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 23:57:26 anyway: how are you invoking that; what is it doing; and how does that differ from what you expected? 23:57:38 why are you using null? on it 23:57:44 do you mean (= x 0) 23:58:20 or (zero? x) 23:58:39 yeah it should be (= x 0) actually 23:58:49 and not s but null there 23:58:57 also you have an issue by quoting x and s 23:59:01 because it should return () if (i 0) 23:59:01 why are you quoting them? 23:59:10 you need them evaluated 23:59:13 a better question is: where are your unit tests? :-\ 23:59:24 *offby1* <--- hard-ass 23:59:25 :) offby1 23:59:29 ><