00:07:21 Is the PH in PHB actually so? It's easy to apply the Potter Stewart metric when identifying PHBs in the abstract, but this is the closest I've seen to a PH-PHB: . 00:07:22 http://tinyurl.com/3o53789 00:07:24 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:08:01 Otherwise, I'm going to assume that PHB is a shape-shifting artifact; and can actually come in all sorts of morphologies. 00:09:41 -!- ijp [~user@host109-150-133-230.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:28 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:13:21 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 00:14:06 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:54 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 00:19:04 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:22:19 -!- blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:00 -!- grglr [~grglr@2620:0:1cfe:61:129a:ddff:fe54:2c1e] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:30:21 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:31:49 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:33:06 grglr [~grglr@2620:0:1cfe:61:129a:ddff:fe54:2c1e] has joined #scheme 00:41:34 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfce60.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:43:25 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:43:32 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbede7d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 00:45:35 -!- SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:48:08 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:51:23 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:51:59 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:56:08 -!- chturne [~chturne@2.28.99.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:57:44 drdo``` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:03:30 lolcow [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 01:03:39 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:08:24 chturne [~chturne@2.28.96.77] has joined #scheme 01:15:15 pcavs [~Adium@pool-96-233-29-135.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:59 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:18:06 dnolen [~davidnole@12.130.124.4] has joined #scheme 01:21:10 -!- pcavs [~Adium@pool-96-233-29-135.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:49 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 01:32:40 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 01:33:55 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:38:37 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533508.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:45:05 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:53:04 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:00:11 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.32.161] has joined #scheme 02:01:02 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1801] 02:07:12 wipt [4a215e64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.33.94.100] has joined #scheme 02:10:38 Hey there, I'm having a hard time understanding a fundamental bit of recursion. I'm writing a little program for class that takes a number, and a s-expression where the number is the number of times to output the s-expression. I have a condition that asks if the number is zero (zero?) - If the number is zero, it should just jump back to the past calls that have been put on the stack and put those values into the list 02:10:53 The thing I'm not understanding is how to go about that :P 02:11:09 'jump back to the past calls' ... i.e. return. 02:11:09 there's no jumping back. 02:11:23 what should you do when (zero? n) ? 02:11:46 pjb: it should just say what I have, do nothing more. 02:12:11 Are you sure you must output the sexp one time when n is zero? 02:12:47 pjb: there is a ((null? s '()) before zero? 02:13:16 Read your problem statement. Is there anything that depends on s being null? 02:14:21 Actually... it doesn't look like it, it's supposed to return empty lists if that's what it's given... 02:14:23 omg Prof what r u doing in here? 02:14:51 wipt: output means I/O, not returning results. 02:14:57 wipt: perhaps you should revise your problem statement? 02:15:28 Sorry, I thought I might cause some confusion with that. 02:19:25 rudybot: (repeat 5 42) 02:19:25 cky: ; Value: (42 42 42 42 42) 02:19:29 wipt: Do you mean that? --^ 02:19:52 cky: pretty much 02:20:10 Well, now you know it's not hard to write. Your challenge is to write it yourself. :-) 02:20:12 So (repeat 0 42) should return what? 02:20:21 rudybot: (repeat 0 42) 02:20:21 cky: ; Value: () 02:20:25 '() 02:20:44 (My solution is cheap, but it's not so cheap as to use make-list.) 02:20:45 Therefore: (cond ((zero? n) '()) (else ...) 02:20:48 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-72-95-250-68.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:21:14 meaning I'm screwing up something else. ugh 02:21:47 (My solution is cheap == I am using unfold to build the list. Again, that's as cheap as one can get without using make-list. :-P) 02:21:47 http://pastebin.com/haHK9g48 02:22:16 wipt: Oh, so close.... 02:22:18 I have to use really basic functions, it's for a class. 02:22:23 (duplicateN (- n 1) s) 02:22:23 wipt: sub1 doesn't modify n. 02:22:33 wipt: It returns (- n 1). 02:22:53 cky: that should be in the recursive call then, I suppose? 02:22:57 Correct. 02:23:00 Hence, what pjb wrote. 02:23:08 I had changed that, but I was fighting the zero/null bit 02:23:51 Use the line pjb wrote as the else clause. You should find that the result will be correct. 02:24:23 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:24:52 what's more is that I had the correct results before, but apparently I wasn't aware of it. 02:25:04 wipt: Hahahahaha. 02:25:12 pjb: Here's my implementation: (define (repeat n x) (unfold-right zero? (constantly x) sub1 n)) 02:25:25 Thanks alot for the help. 02:25:33 wipt: :-) 02:25:50 wipt: I know you can't submit the unfold version, but one day, you should study that version I just pasted and see how _that_ works. :-) 02:25:57 cky: I'd just use make-list... 02:26:01 pjb: So would I. 02:26:13 pjb: This version is "as close to make-list can get without using make-list". 02:26:39 wipt: The make-list solution is: (define repeat make-list). :-P 02:28:13 lol. Oh boy. 02:29:05 Something about this language is really tripping me up. I'm used to C. I'm having a terrible time following how things are returned and whatnot. 02:29:28 wipt: Just imagine that everything has an implicit return at the bottom. :-) 02:29:58 wipt: object repeat(int n,object s){return (n==0)?empty:cons(object,repeat(n-1,object));} 02:30:16 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 02:30:38 -!- jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:31:16 wipt: if you use boehmGC, and with the right library (defining object, cons, etc), you can write C as well as scheme... 02:32:02 Heh, I should try to implement a Scheme-like object system using C++ shared_ptr and discriminated unions (Boost.Variant). 02:32:15 Of course, yes, the usual stories about reference cycles. 02:32:28 I almost think that defeats the purpose of learning scheme :P 02:33:04 Plus, wouldn't C/C++ be more efficient anyways (in terms of machine cycles). 02:33:32 No, it wouldn't. 02:33:55 And you'd have difficulties writing literal sexps, and handling errors. 02:34:30 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@12.130.124.4] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:34:31 wait, are we talking about the same thing? 02:34:39 wipt: Yes. 02:35:22 wipt: C and C++ are not always more efficient than Lisp (especially Common Lisp). 02:35:42 Many CL implementers actually Care About Performance (tm). 02:36:04 I suspect that decent Scheme implementers do, too. 02:36:17 But I haven't actually done a real comparison of CL vs Scheme performance-wise. 02:36:20 Now that you mention it, I've read about that before. 02:36:36 http://cliki.net/Performance 02:36:46 I suppose if the compiler/runtime does enough optimization, things should be just fine. 02:37:10 wipt: JIT > AOT, IMHO. :-P 02:37:57 Honestly, I've never heard of AOT, so I can't really compare the two. I'll have to read up on that 02:38:09 wipt: C and C++ are AOT by design. 02:38:13 wipt: (Ahead-of-time.) 02:38:53 oh, so compiled :P 02:38:54 wipt: Other systems like .NET allow both (AOT via ngen, JIT otherwise). 02:39:24 wipt: JIT is compiled too...except it's done at runtime ("dynamic compilation"). 02:39:45 wipt: Hence the need to distinguish between AOT ("static compilation") and JIT ("dynamic compilation"). 02:40:38 Theres a difference between static/dynamic binaries and AOT/JIT, though, right? 02:40:50 wipt: I'm not talking about static/dynamic binaries. 02:40:58 alright 02:41:03 wipt: I'm talking about doing things like profile-guided compilation _at runtime_. 02:41:14 wipt: So you can optimise code to fit the current usage pattern.p 02:41:32 wipt: And when the pattern changes, the system can automatically deoptimise the code and reoptimise with the new pattern. 02:41:50 wipt: That's how HotSpot works, and probably many other JIT systems. 02:42:12 wipt: (HotSpot == JVM's JIT compiler, if you didn't already know. :-)) 02:45:19 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 02:47:06 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:48:27 mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:18 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:55:41 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 02:56:54 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:36 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:10:52 http://pastebin.com/7eWNCKuk return the product of the tuple. Should I be using recursion like this? 03:14:09 if you're required to use primitives, this is fine 03:14:32 wipt: just take care with your spacing and indentation 03:15:27 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 03:15:29 wipt: although there seems to be some funny business with the unnecessary cons 03:16:00 wipt: and, of course, this doesn't actually work yet ;) 03:16:05 qu1j0t3: cons is unnecessary? 03:16:22 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 03:16:23 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:16:36 wipt: well, you want the equivalent of (apply * lst) right? e.g. the results would be 24, -30, 1 ? 03:16:54 yeah 03:16:56 wipt: then no cons'ing is required. 03:17:38 how does the multiplication work, then? 03:17:39 wipt: write it out in English first. 03:18:04 wipt: define your base case (the empty list) and then the inductive step (the result is the head element multiplied by tupmul of the rest of the list) 03:18:13 then translate that to scheme 03:18:29 I got it to work, but I don't understand why it works. 03:18:32 >.< 03:18:37 does it use cons? 03:18:45 (your solution that works) 03:19:00 wipt how it works is how I wrote above. 03:19:08 wipt: see if you can understand what I wrote... 03:19:17 no, no cons 03:19:47 wow, really 03:20:31 it's really just those 2 things. a) tupmul of an empty list is 1. b) tupmul of a non-empty list is the head element multiplied by the tupmul of the remaining elements. 03:20:43 ...translated into scheme. 03:23:22 rudybot: (define (product lst) (reduce * 1 lst)) 03:23:22 cky: Done. 03:23:35 rudybot: (product '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) 03:23:35 cky: ; Value: 720 03:23:38 or (apply * lst) 03:23:51 qu1j0t3: Yes, but that's less optimal if your list is big. 03:23:54 yes 03:23:57 i always forget that. :) 03:24:19 *qu1j0t3* first learned Apply with Mathematica which doesn't have this limitation 03:35:01 Riastradh 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[~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:06:04 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:06:04 -!- poucet [~chris@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:06:04 -!- pranq [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:06:04 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 04:07:59 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:12:38 is there anything like nfs but done in scheme? 04:13:41 guile-rpc has an nfs implementation, fwiw 04:14:17 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 04:15:30 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 04:15:51 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 04:21:48 FYI: Gavino is a well-known long-time troll. 04:22:17 not 04:22:25 I am a free software lover. 04:22:36 Riastradh: i had forgotten that, yes... 04:22:51 Riastradh: why cant we be friends/ 04:23:25 Easy. You gave up the opportunity for that some five-odd years ago. 04:23:52 I have to work and make money to live, this is time consuming. 04:26:25 i do respect that you contribute to the scheme community. 04:26:52 Riastradh: do you use edwin as your editor of choice? 04:28:29 I use Edwin for Scheme code and mail, and GNU Emacs for everything else. 04:34:08 -!- gavino [cfb4b12c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.180.177.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:34:44 Riastradh, I understand why you would use it for Scheming, but what about Edwin's mail client makes it your top choice? 04:35:54 gozaboru [~7owls@70.230.179.23] has joined #scheme 04:37:16 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-230-242.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 04:41:31 It irritates me less than every other mail client I've tried, and I know my way around it so when it's broken I can fix it relatively easily. 04:42:09 On the other hand, it's also pretty seriously broken at fundamental levels, so I have been thinking for a while about throwing it away and handling mail completely differently. However, I don't yet have a satisfactory replacement. 04:43:06 is that bertrand russell on the left with J mccarthy? http://heavymetalab.appspot.com/static/background.jpg 04:47:40 Riastradh: gnus seems pretty good and is actively developed. http://gnus.org 04:49:20 gnus is a multiparameter family of mailers, with a high-dimensional parameter space. Nobody has found good mailer in there, although there are many local optima. 04:59:55 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02:10 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 05:06:53 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-230-242.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:18:45 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-72-95-250-68.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:26:45 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:29:06 is the difference between a recursive procedure and an iterative procedure as the terms are used in SICP just the difference between a a recursive 05:29:31 procedure you can tail-call optimize vs. one you can't? 05:30:16 recursive/iterative *process* rather 05:31:24 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Quit: LOLeaving] 05:31:58 -!- gozaboru [~7owls@70.230.179.23] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:37:19 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:38:24 kellar: In Scheme, iteration is done using tail recursion, so, yes, that's what it boils down to. 05:38:49 kellar: Pretty much all loops in Scheme are implemented that way behind the scenes, even if fancy macros hide their true nature. 05:40:11 kellar: "you can tail-call optimise" is a red herring. In Scheme, there is a rule known as "proper tail calls", which means that an infinite chain of tail calls must use only a bounded amount of space. 05:41:02 kellar: In practice, for many implementations, that simply means that TCO is applied to all tail calls, unconditionally. (But that's not the only way to implement proper tail calls; Cheney on the MTA is another approach.) 05:42:21 kellar: For example, (letrec ((f (lambda () (f)))) (f)) _must_ result in an infinite loop, _not_ a stack overflow. 05:43:22 Actually, a nicer way to write the same loop is: (let f () (f)). 05:43:31 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.32.161] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 05:44:45 rudybot: (syntax->datum (expand '(let f () (f)))) 05:44:45 cky: ; Value: (#%app (letrec-values (((f) (lambda () (#%app f)))) f)) 05:45:30 rudybot: (syntax->datum (expand '(letrec ((f (lambda () (f)))) (f))))) 05:45:30 cky: was for some reason expecting `letrec*' semantics in the body .. but can only find an `letrec'-based explanation in R5RS 05:45:35 rudybot: eval (syntax->datum (expand '(letrec ((f (lambda () (f)))) (f))))) 05:45:35 would something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/124748 be converted internally into something which uses a tail-call? and use bounded storage? 05:45:35 cky: error: eval:1:60: read: unexpected `)' 05:46:07 kellar: No, that's not a tail call, strictly speaking. 05:46:30 right, so that could overflow the recursion limit? 05:46:37 kellar: However, implementations that have "tail call modulo cons" will implement that as an iteration anyway. 05:46:53 well supposing instead of cons I used some other wird function 05:47:16 if something is explicitley not a tail call, it will eat up a little stack at every call, right? 05:47:20 Right. 05:48:28 so when SICP makes the distinction between a recursive process and an iterative process, this is the difference it boils down to? if you can TCO it, then the space overhead of recursion can be avoided? 05:50:06 -!- JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-72-95-250-68.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:50:11 no 05:50:21 iterative process is what would be a loop 05:52:03 iirc, they draw some call stack diagrams and explain what is iterative process 05:52:12 (i don't have the book here) 05:52:58 iterative process is a property of how the function is constructed; TCO is code generation method that makes it use bounded space 05:54:52 you misread my question. I asked IF you can TCO a recursive procedure then you would get a an iterative rather then a recursive process. I was asking if that's a correct test. 05:56:02 (defun f (x) (when (> x 0) (princ x) (f (1- x)) (f (- x 2)))) 05:56:27 you can TCO the last call to f, but that doesn't make it an iterative process 05:57:17 so TCO-ing is not an absolute yes/no 05:59:20 but isn't that exactly because the first recursive call to f isn't a tail-call? 05:59:32 kellar: Let's not talk about TCO. Let's just say, if all recursion is tail recursion, then in effect it's iterative. 05:59:55 cky: nicely put :). 06:00:06 thanks guys. 06:00:18 :-) 06:00:26 Scheme has a formal definition of the notion of "tail position". 06:00:34 Any function call made in tail position is a tail call. 06:01:38 so obviously there can be only one recursive tail-call per procedure.. which is what zvrba's example shows. 06:02:22 Well, of course. But, for example, if you have a cond, then the last expression of _each_ branch is in tail position, assuming that the cond itself is in tail position. 06:02:42 kellar: no, you can have more, as cky said. 06:03:16 zvrba: Still, I think kellar's point is, one recursive call per iteration. That is indeed correct. 06:04:08 yes 06:06:35 thanks cky, I always learn something talking with you. 06:07:39 kellar: how long have you been doing programming_ 06:10:02 10+ years with long breaks :) 06:10:14 ok 06:10:24 but never rigorously 06:10:32 studied 06:10:41 i've been coding since I was like 12 years 06:10:57 started doing SICP recently 06:11:01 (though, I do it in CL) 06:11:11 as you might have recognized from my code above :) 06:11:14 I'm going back to the beginning and starting over, hopefully the right way this time 06:11:46 :) 06:11:49 good. 06:13:57 cky: is your knowledge the result of formal CS studies? I find few people know lambda calculus if they havn't been through a CS program 06:15:20 I just read this old post by joel spoelsky: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html 06:15:52 very true. I know professional progrmmers. cs grads who don't the first thing about lisp and it's ideas. it really is a shame. 06:19:39 kellar: I did do a CS program, but I didn't learn lambda calculus at university. 06:20:02 kellar: My most in-depth encounter with lambda calculus was reading R5RS's denotational semantics (section 7.2). 06:21:18 That was something I decided to read during a long train ride, 7 years ago. :-) 06:21:22 cky: oh. so did you just happened to pick it up along the way then? 06:21:26 Pretty much. 06:21:35 I'm a self-taught programmer. :-) 06:21:44 different standards here in #scheme 06:21:54 me too, But i'm only reaching lambda calculus after 10 years 06:22:05 What do you mean by "different standards"? 06:22:41 well, you do realize that in some circles the concept of "picking up lambda calculus along the way" would be ample cause for mirth? 06:23:04 Sure, but obviously I don't mix in those circles. ;-) 06:23:40 pretty wide circles at that 06:24:28 kellar: I was known for being a really terrible student at university. So I'm pretty much used to people's snarky comments in that regard, if we're talking about academicky types. :-) 06:25:16 it's all relative. if you've ever seen a CS prof. in a hardware store, it's much the same. 06:26:04 I am constantly amazed at the number of #scheme people who seem to have Phd's or equivalent 06:26:14 is everyone here part of the steering commitee? 06:26:29 *cky* is not. 06:26:43 that's two then. 65 isn't bad 06:29:14 make that three 06:30:52 aoh: Phd? that counts too. 06:31:41 kellar, nope. working at a university though, but on infosec, and just rebooted studies. 06:32:11 and math instead of cs 06:32:50 *cky* doesn't have a PhD, obviously. Also, I majored in statistics. 06:33:02 and where did you pick up lambda calculus (if you did?) , light reading in the men's room? ;) 06:33:33 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:34:05 I'm curious about the distribution of education in #scheme 06:34:39 kellar, iirc there was some lisp in one anime series, after which i decided to study it, ran into lambda calculus soon, wrote a self-compiler in it for a maths course, then wrote a simple lisp implementation, got hired to do infosec and was allowed to use it, and still on that path :) 06:35:27 yeah, it seems like often the case that people's path to lisp is an interesting story. 06:35:29 it's a progression thing. first you just try to stay in metacyclic stuff but soon you need to get more standalone and native. 06:36:22 do you do research in infosec our do you man the guns? 06:36:34 kellar: I studied with the department that created the R programming language (in fact, my honours project involved some R internals). You may or may not know that R is basically like Scheme with S syntax. :-P 06:36:52 cky: isn't R lazy? 06:36:57 zvrba: No. 06:37:07 cky: I know that's before I got acquainted with scheme I was wondering what deranged monkey came up with R's syntax 06:37:19 cky: j'accuse. 06:37:21 zvrba: There are some special forms that defer evaluation, just like in Scheme. 06:37:32 http://cran.r-project.org/doc/manuals/R-lang.html 06:37:37 kellar, designing and using tools to find bugs recently, like in browsers 06:37:42 4.3.3.: R has a form of lazy evaluation of function arguments. Arguments are not evaluated until needed.' 06:37:46 aoh: fuzzers? 06:37:48 (3rd paragraph from the top) 06:37:56 aoh: or static analysis? 06:38:00 zvrba: Okay, fair call. 06:38:27 *zvrba* hasn't gone senile yet \o/ :P 06:38:31 kellar, we started with reverse engineering feedback directed fuzzers, but ended up doing just fuzzers because those seem to work (which is sad) 06:38:51 zvrba: :-) 06:39:14 still, doesn't really matter what you do as long as it has enough parens :) 06:39:17 kellar: Yeah, S compatibility meant that R has quite a few superficial warts. Same deal with JS, as you know. 06:39:27 aoh: why reverse engineering? you mean analyzing sploits? 06:39:53 Reverse engineering is awesome. :-D 06:40:09 I've been doing it since my mid-teens, though not professionally. :-P 06:40:26 cky: it seemed really non-uniform to me, to much special syntax. that was a while back though, maybe my perpective would be different now. 06:40:30 hehe 06:40:44 why, that could mean all sorts of things 06:40:45 yes, R is fugly 06:40:47 but very useful 06:41:00 kellar, in that case we were trying to learn structure of file formats and protocols, preferably without seeing the implementation, so not the usual RE. wrong term kinda. 06:41:22 aoh: I do count that as a form of RE, yes. 06:41:59 aoh: You should have a chat with my friend Daeken. You guys would have a lot to talk about. :-) 06:42:22 IDA? 06:42:24 in case someone wants to do that kind of stuff, i'd recommend using suffix arrays and parser combinators to walk over all unique substrings in parallel (for length/payload finding, checksum search etc) 06:42:41 kellar, enowindows, we prefer to stay on the open source stuff whenever possible :) 06:42:48 Lol. 06:43:32 linux has gone the same evil way as MS. almost impossible to use bitmap fonts. so no reason to actually use it anymore :p 06:43:35 didn't know there was a respectable FOSS alternative to IDA, but it's been a while since I've done RE 06:43:45 aoh: This is one of Daeken's latest projects at work, not sure if it's your cup of tea: http://www.matasano.com/research/kivlad/ 06:44:11 the ultimate anti-re tool: http://zvrba.net/software/cspim.html 06:44:13 :p 06:44:23 cky, cool, and +1 for matasano :) 06:44:37 aoh: :-) 06:45:41 bytecode RE. 06:45:43 *kellar* bristles 06:46:35 kellar: I'm not sure how to read your bristling, so I should ask you to explain. :-) 06:47:53 cky: I just had a bad experience 10 years ago, with RE of , java was it? when there were basically no tools. it was unpleasent. 06:48:10 today I guess it's just assembler for aprcoessor which doesn't exist 06:48:14 kellar: What? JVM bytecode RE is a piece of cake! 06:48:36 kellar: I can read JVM assembly in my sleep (so to speak). 06:49:31 kellar: x86 assembly is a little more work, but I've also reversed those a fair bit (especially during my teenage years). 06:50:04 we're trying to help many vendors and people (with fairly small resources), and a big problem i've seen is that many vendors have code reachable from the outside that hasn't been tested at all, or with a few fixed testes, because the don't have the tools for it, time to learn how to use the free ones 06:50:11 *cky* is trying hard not to get lazy in old age. :-P 06:50:32 so one thing we're doing is a general purpose fuzzer (at http://code.google.com/p/ouspg/wiki/Radamsa) 06:50:32 cky: I heed, but today you have tools to do the dissasembly, signature recognition, etc. 06:50:34 aoh: So you mainly do pentesting, then? 06:51:13 kellar: Right, and Kivlad is one such tool, that is supposed to be better for decompiling Android programs than pretty much anything else "out there". 06:51:18 cky: I wrote a 6809 disassembler in my teens. it worked, but it wasn't as nice as IDA. 06:51:36 Oh, I agree IDA is pretty much a gold standard when it comes to disassembly, these days. 06:51:53 cky, tools and bug search, yep. for example gzip, bzip2, libpng, most av tools, http://dev.chromium.org/Home/chromium-security/hall-of-fame and such have been profitable ones :) 06:52:19 aoh: Nice. :-) 06:52:33 bounties ftw <3 06:52:35 aoh: Dude, come to #stackoverflow some time. You'll have fun chatting with Daeken. :-P 06:52:53 Daeken would agree with that. :-P 06:53:12 cky: it also means that if you're doing RE, you can concentrate on DOING RE, rather then writing the basic tools for letting you do RE. thank your friend for me on the dalvik front on exactly that point. 06:53:45 kellar: Quite. *nods* 06:54:44 wow, that sergey guy has done well for himself 06:55:12 Yep! 06:55:12 yep, i think he's now as an intern at google 06:55:58 aoh: anything on bugtraq that's your's? 06:56:42 kellar, haven't really used it, though probably should. 06:57:09 well, you do get your vulns fixed by the vendors, no? 06:57:10 normally i just send repros and descriptions to a cert or the vendors 06:57:33 what's your disclosure policy? 06:58:22 kellar, responsible :) 06:58:42 :) 06:58:44 i don't normally care about the bugs really, other than getting them fixed. i'd rather be hacking. :) 06:59:19 what about lazy vendors? you know if you can find a vuln, someone less nice can too. full disclosure if a form of peer pressure. 07:00:10 kellar, i usually send one bug, and if they don't react (or sue), they won't get any more. 07:01:07 google & mozilla are proving to be good examples on how to handle the security stuff, so if other vendors are lazy, they'll probably die out soon anyway without further pressure. 07:02:06 though further pressure is a good thing, you have to be a bit more careful in a univ group than as a 17yo script kiddie :) 07:03:20 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: mithos28] 07:03:20 There was an instructive example with the linux kernel a few months back. a long-standing vuln was fixed (something exploitable through the root X-server IIRC) after being in-tree for a couple of years. days after being fixed, some blackhat claimed he'd been actively exploiting for more then a year. 07:04:29 I agree, it's hard to handle properly. especially with the lawyers of 16 million pound gorillas like fortune 500 companies. 07:06:11 yeah. wouldn't have believed a few years back that now some vendors are not only crediting the researchers, but even paying for the individual bugs. 07:06:27 everything not written in haske^wscheme yet, but at least this is progress 07:09:48 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-248-109.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 07:12:58 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:22:01 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 07:49:28 confab [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:49:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-10.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:49:28 bokr [~ed@109.110.34.236] has joined #scheme 07:49:28 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbede7d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 07:49:28 erg_ [~erg@li32-38.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 07:49:28 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 07:49:28 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-121-218.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 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joined #scheme 11:15:20 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:15:58 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 11:23:05 2nd version of scheme-golfing pasted: , if you can do better or have comments on style. please share. 11:33:11 kellar: what's that? 11:34:04 Burlingk [~burlingk@softbank221067045171.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 11:49:46 a small program, see if you can make it shorter 11:50:12 -!- tizoc` is now known as tizoc 11:50:25 or simpler 11:50:27 -!- tizoc [~user@li25-112.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:50:27 tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 11:58:08 rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 12:27:12 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.223.36] has joined #scheme 12:38:18 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:41:04 -!- metasyntax|work [~taylor@fw-its-kt209a-2.dyn.ipfw.edu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat [quit]] 12:41:47 xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has joined #scheme 12:56:49 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:03:39 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:29 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 13:12:31 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:13:28 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 13:13:54 mykhal [~mykhal@gateway/tor-sasl/mykhal] has joined #scheme 13:15:16 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:15:42 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 13:16:46 kellar: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/ if you <3 golfing. :-P (Disclosure: I'm one of the mods on the site.) 13:19:18 -!- chturne_ [~chturne@2.28.96.62] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:21:35 kellar: Here's one of my Scheme golfed entries: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/222/3 13:24:52 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:25:07 cky: thanks. your parents are awesome btw. naming you jester sure gives you a leg up on everyone else for your career as an evil mastermind. 13:25:11 simpering swizzlesticks batman! 13:25:41 kellar: That has nothing to do with my parents, and everything to do with my wife's family. 13:25:59 kellar: (My wife and I decided to do hyphenated names when we got married.) 13:26:35 Thus, prior to our marriage, my last name was Young and hers was Jester. :-P 13:27:21 well, your wife's parents are awesome then. and so are you for being a secure enough individual to marry an evil mastermind. I salute you sir. 13:27:46 Lol. :-) 13:29:08 *whitequark* looks at the top answer 13:30:47 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-gxvydkfagasuuooi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:49 bleh, mine is much better :p http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1538964/code-golf-reverse-polish-notation-postfix-evaluator/1540679#1540679 13:31:50 http://tinyurl.com/66fmkmw 13:33:36 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 13:35:07 homoiconicity? that sounds contagious 13:36:15 iirc I had to google the meaning of that, but I forgot now :) 13:37:31 leppie: Lol. 13:38:01 ahh, it's when code is represented as a data structure which is a primitive type of the language itself. 13:38:18 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:39:58 mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 13:40:57 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:41:57 ijp [~user@host109-150-133-230.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:43:27 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:44:10 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 13:44:27 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:28 wipt [cc4d29d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.77.41.208] has joined #scheme 13:46:20 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has left #scheme 13:47:27 lepppie: why use (cddr s)? '() instead seems to work fine. 13:50:51 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.137.164] has joined #scheme 14:00:25 i dunno, that was 2 years ago ;P 14:04:59 kellar: to maintain a stack, i think 14:05:34 so (rpn 1 2 + 3 +) would be the same as (rpn 1 2 3 + +) 14:05:40 i think 14:06:17 ahh, that fits. my case doesn't handle that. nice. 14:13:13 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:16:58 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #scheme 14:18:14 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 14:22:40 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 14:26:30 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:32:22 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:40:53 you have to admire a CS book that has footnotes quoting frege. 14:42:21 woonie [~woonie@49.245.83.185] has joined #scheme 14:42:30 cky: you can save two chars by using #t instead of else 14:42:39 or another character by using 0 instead of #t 14:42:47 samth: who counts chars? 14:43:02 pjb: this is a discussion about code golf 14:43:40 and several more if you use racket and can use  14:44:26 (define t #t) (cond ... (t ...)) 14:44:48 pjb: that takes a bunch of characters for the define :) 14:45:23 Put it a library. 14:46:05 cky: also, if you use `null?' instead of `number?' and swap the cases, you save 2 more 14:51:05 enomoto [~kubita@pdf87db15.tubehm00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:54:37 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:56:36 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 14:58:23 -!- woonie [~woonie@49.245.83.185] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:48 HG` [~HG@p579F76A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:58:55 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-177.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 15:01:35 http://pastebin.com/i3fUJdHS I'm looking to find the number of times any one atom from lat1 occurs in lat2. occur should be defined perfectly, but after occur returns that number should be added to the recursive call of occurN, ultimatly giving the total. It's just returing lat2 15:02:19 -!- enomoto [~kubita@pdf87db15.tubehm00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has left #scheme 15:06:16 I suppose if there's anything I can ask, why is it returing lat2? 15:06:21 *returning 15:06:34 the third cond clause in occurN looks strange 15:09:45 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:12:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.137.164] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 15:14:31 samth: Very nice. Thanks, I'll put your suggestions to use when I next edit that post. :-) 15:15:21 -!- docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:27 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:15:38 -!- pchrist [~spirit@83.212.183.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 249 seconds] 15:15:38 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:28 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 15:17:03 docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has joined #scheme 15:17:40 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 15:17:57 zvrba: thanks. I see I need more than just a condition there. Hadn't noticed that. 15:18:00 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 15:18:08 -!- docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:19:08 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-121-218.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20:47 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:20:47 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:21:02 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:21:02 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:21:33 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 15:21:43 cky: even better -- in racket, the last value isn't null, it's eof, who's predicate is eof? 15:22:44 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-166-60.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 15:23:16 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:23:16 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:23:29 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:23:29 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:23:46 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:23:46 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:23:53 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 15:24:55 -!- wipt [cc4d29d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.77.41.208] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:26:36 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:26:37 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:26:47 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:26:47 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:27:19 Urchin [~urchin@193.198.193.4] has joined #scheme 15:27:19 -!- Urchin [~urchin@193.198.193.4] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:27:58 samth: Very nice. (I don't think that's Racket-specific, BTW.) 15:28:25 Well, other Schemes use eof-object?, I think. 15:28:41 So if Racket provides eof? as a synonym, then that would indeed be Racket-specific. 15:29:15 Welcome to Racket v5.1.3. 15:29:15 > eof-object? 15:29:15 # 15:29:15 > eof? 15:29:15 reference to undefined identifier: eof? 15:29:19 Hmmmm. 15:29:32 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:29:32 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:29:42 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:29:42 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:29:58 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:29:58 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:31:26 -!- ccorn_ [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn_] 15:31:59 cky: yeah, that turned out to be wrong 15:32:23 here's a more-golfed version using eval: (let l((s 0))(define t(read))(cond[(real? t)(l`(,t,@s))][(memq t'(+ - * /))(l`(,((eval t)(cadr s)(car s)),@(cddr s)))][0(car s)])) 15:32:42 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:32:42 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:32:42 rudybot: (real? 1) 15:32:43 cky: ; Value: #t 15:32:49 rudybot: (real? 1+1i) 15:32:49 cky: ; Value: #f 15:32:52 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:32:53 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:33:02 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:33:02 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:33:06 cky: i don't think the rules require support for complex numbers 15:33:08 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.137.164] has joined #scheme 15:33:13 that would disqualify most of the solutions 15:33:14 True. :-) 15:35:21 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:35:22 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:35:32 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:35:32 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:35:42 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:35:42 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:35:59 Nice with using define, I see that saves one char. 15:36:11 Usually I avoid using define in golfing because it's such a long word. :-P 15:36:21 But in this case it actually worked out well. 15:37:53 samth: You should post your eval-based version as a separate answer! :-) 15:38:10 cky: i think it's the same number of characters with define 15:38:27 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:38:27 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:38:37 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:38:37 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:38:53 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:38:53 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:39:11 Oh yes, since it's actually four characters more: "ine ". 15:39:26 I forgot that with the let approach, I'm stripping out an extra space, but adding the double-brackets. 15:41:37 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:41:37 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:41:47 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:41:48 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:41:57 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:41:57 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:42:51 cky: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/221/reverse-polish-notation/3714#3714 15:42:53 http://tinyurl.com/3d3sorp 15:44:29 cool samth :) 15:44:46 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:44:47 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:44:57 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:44:57 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:45:07 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:45:07 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:45:35 -!- SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:46:03 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:46:16 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:47:14 samth: Upvoted. :-) 15:47:22 cky: thanks 15:47:23 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:47:23 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:47:36 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:47:36 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:47:50 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:47:51 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:47:58 l` is not legal in my scheme :( 15:48:59 leppie: i think that's a bug 15:49:51 samth: Unfortunately, I just reread the question and it includes the line "You are not allowed to use any kind of "eval" in the program." 15:49:56 darn 15:49:57 a bug in my scheme? is it legal for R6RS? 15:50:32 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:50:33 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:50:42 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:50:42 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:50:52 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:50:52 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:50:54 i'm pretty sure that (read) from the string (l`()) should produce '(l ()) 15:51:26 s, .. must be terminated by a or by the end of the input. (sic) 15:51:33 http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-2.html#node_toc_node_sec_4.2.1 15:51:33 http://tinyurl.com/3p8cao9 15:53:01 oh weird -- delimiter doesn't include ` and ' 15:53:43 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:53:43 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:53:56 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:53:56 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:54:06 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:54:06 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:54:22 samth: You sure? 15:54:47 arcfide: search for in the link leppie posted 15:55:35 I think that's new in r6, isn't it? 15:56:17 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:56:17 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:56:27 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:56:27 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:56:37 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:56:37 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:57:51 xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has joined #scheme 15:58:48 sjamaan: Copied in R7, we may want to add ` and ' as delimmiters. 15:59:09 samth: It looks to me that ` is already considered a lexeme in itself. 15:59:12 I don't care much either way 15:59:22 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:59:22 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:59:26 So it shouldn't be necessary to include it in the delimiters list. 15:59:32 Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:59:32 -!- Urchin [~urchin@student.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:59:42 Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has joined #scheme 15:59:42 -!- Urchin [~urchin@webmail.fizika.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:00:04 Is the grammar ambiguous in that respect? 16:00:20 sjamaan: It's useful for one-liners. 16:00:27 Chez Scheme accepts ` 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seconds] 18:37:51 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:41:24 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #scheme 18:50:33 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:50:40 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 18:54:58 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-187-85.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:55:04 -!- JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-187-85.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:13 blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 18:56:53 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-187-85.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:09:30 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 19:14:03 hoi 19:17:20 heya 19:25:19 -!- JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-187-85.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:20 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-177.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:28:02 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-187-85.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:15 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:49:49 foof: How fast is your match? 19:57:07 One strike on the box and all the world's in flames. 19:58:44 arcfide: depends on your optimizer, and the use case 19:59:15 Of course slow match has its uses too, particularly when dynamiting implementations. 20:00:58 Unthahorsten [~Unthahors@del63-3-88-177-167-25.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:04:30 MagnusA [2eef6a47@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.239.106.71] has joined #scheme 20:04:36 (test) 20:12:00 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-30-209.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #scheme 20:13:37 -!- JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-187-85.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:24 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:22:34 Just read "Minutes of the June 1992 meeting of Scheme report authors" by Jonathan Rees, very interesting document about the R5RS process. 20:23:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:25:03 -!- drdo``` is now known as drdo 20:27:49 -!- mykhal [~mykhal@gateway/tor-sasl/mykhal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:15 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 20:28:42 By the way, out of curiosity, Does any of you know what happened with the R5RS "library committee" ? 20:33:27 mykhal [~mykhal@gateway/tor-sasl/mykhal] has joined #scheme 20:35:26 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:24 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has left #scheme 20:43:04 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 20:43:56 HG`` [~HG@p579F740B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:46:06 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F76A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:46:36 foof: Having a Scheme repository is an excellent move ! Don't you think that Will Clinger's idea of classifying libraries into standard/experimental/proposal sounds appealing for it ? 20:46:59 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:47:54 -!- Unthahorsten [~Unthahors@del63-3-88-177-167-25.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: goodbye] 20:48:57 There should probably be two kinds of standard: de jure and de facto 20:53:39 -!- HG`` [~HG@p579F740B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG``] 21:07:23 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07:34 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 21:09:27 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:14:55 jsg [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:15:22 -!- jsg is now known as Guest17671 21:15:51 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-88.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:20:53 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 21:24:35 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 21:30:40 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:43 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:32:30 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:18 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:37 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:56:39 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:56:44 bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:59:54 -!- bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:22 hoon2 [~user@2001:468:1910:3c06:462a:60ff:fef2:b106] has joined #scheme 22:02:45 Q: MIT scheme use Normal order or Applicative order? 22:03:46 I read that all interpreter use applicative order for optimize operation. 22:07:49 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:50 hoon2: Applicative for procedures; normal for special forms. 22:09:51 (define (myProcedure a b) (if (> a 10) a (+ a b))) than (myProcedure 20 (/ 2 0)) than division by zero 22:10:10 I forget the link of website for Scheme code posting sorry to mess up 22:11:34 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:11:36 thats applicative order for you 22:11:53 oh (if ... is special form that is why calculate normal order. 22:11:58 am I right? 22:12:01 ya 22:13:46 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 22:14:13 What if my code using applicative order for operation and then I will get 20 right? 22:14:35 The reason why they try to calculate (/ 2 0) is normal order. OIC:) 22:14:51 it calculates (/ 2 0) because funciton application is applicative order 22:15:18 I am confusing now .. 22:15:43 (f a b) -- the expression 'a' and 'b' will be evaluated before they are passed to f 22:16:00 unlike if, (if x a b), 'a' and 'b' will only be evaluated depending on the value of x 22:16:02 Okay 22:16:35 outside of macros/special forms there is no way to prevent an expression from being evaluated. however there is a trick which is to wrap your expression in a lambda, called a thunk 22:17:02 (f (lambda () a) (lambda () b)), now the expressions 'a' and 'b' wont be evaluated on the way to f, a closure will be passed instead and f can call (a) to really invoke a 22:18:00 so. (myProcedure 20 (/ 2 0)) is kind of (f a b) so that is why they try to (/ 2 0) 22:18:04 yes 22:18:09 There's also the force/promise dichotomy. 22:18:31 I am taking Scheme class .. it is very interesting me 22:19:13 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:19:36 Thanks I got a go to lab. thanks for the answer 22:22:37 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:48 hoon2: Ok; "our dichotomy opens the combat." 22:32:13 -!- hoon2 [~user@2001:468:1910:3c06:462a:60ff:fef2:b106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:32:15 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:32:44 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 22:32:55 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 22:33:02 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 22:35:26 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 22:38:09 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:10 Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 22:42:53 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44:11 -!- replore__ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:01 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:52:29 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-187-85.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:56:44 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 23:01:12 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:20:05 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-33-222.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:26:00 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 23:29:30 -!- frhodes_ [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:32:24 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:32:31 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.38.242.1] has quit [Quit: Out of quarters] 23:33:11 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-155-90.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:33:16 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-54-74.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 23:40:35 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.151.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:32 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 23:54:17 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-88.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]