00:01:09 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:08:25 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 00:08:31 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:08:43 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:10:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.237.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:10:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-133-189.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:13:49 -!- deke [~deke@fl-71-54-189-181.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:51 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:24:52 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 00:25:08 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:32:27 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:35:57 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:58 -!- davidh` is now known as davidh 00:42:38 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f77b86e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:45:51 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfd9b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 00:49:20 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:50:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-133-189.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:53:56 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.108] has joined #scheme 01:02:32 -!- blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:08 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:10:48 anyone see jcowan's presentation? 01:11:28 No! Is there a link to it anywhere? 01:14:19 he said he'd post it 01:26:11 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.209.232.154] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:30 also, will anyone be at ICFP? 01:27:47 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:29:37 Where's it at this year? 01:30:08 tokyo 01:30:48 I could visit there without being gropulated! 01:30:56 But I don't think I could afford the trip. 01:33:16 leppie [~lolcow@196.209.232.154] has joined #scheme 01:33:31 jjong [~user@58.225.5.42] has joined #scheme 01:33:39 gropulate? 01:35:11 I can afford the trip (free if I bike it), but the entrance fee is staggering. 01:36:10 What's the entrance fee? 01:36:47 ("gropulate" rhymes not with "populate" but with "rope you ate") 01:38:06 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 01:38:10 gnomon: I actually read it as a portmanteau of "grope" and "copulate". 01:38:44 >$800 01:39:02 cky, that was not my intention, but I like the cut of your jib. 01:39:32 foof, jiminy cricket! That's a fat stack of simoleons! 01:42:12 $860, 1/2 price for students, slight discount for ACM members, workshops each costs extra 01:43:08 I think they're assuming people only go if sponsored. 01:44:16 The only sponsor I've got is the one keeping me out of the liquor cabinet. 01:44:19 Speaking of which... 01:44:34 *gnomon* jets off to decide between the Lagavulin or the Glenlivet 01:46:52 Mm, forgot about the Bowmore 12. 01:49:15 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:59:40 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1871] 02:01:38 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:01:48 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:14:06 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-116-198.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 02:23:18 -!- dfjklaaf [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:24:39 -!- thevishy [~tnishant@203.123.174.162] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:26:05 thevishy [~tnishant@203.123.174.162] has joined #scheme 02:29:50 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 02:35:35 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:44:29 where I work, people have Scotch like that at their desks 02:45:19 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:19 offby1, how does that work out there..? 02:48:37 It cannot be worse than cocainated golden boys. 02:54:45 Scotch? Not duct? 03:02:29 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 14:20:47 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 14:20:47 14:20:47 -!- names: ccl-logbot pcavs realitygrill MrFahrenheit woonie micro gffa replore Euthy mornfall tupi djcb rins xissburg dfjklaaf thevishy ijp Kajtek ahinki amoe kennyd MichaelRaskin twem2 cky ski mmc masm takamoron aoh poucet kandinski y3llow aehrisch antoszka pranq kniu Nisstyre wtetzner snorble borkman vk0 dsmith preflex jimster_ adzuci sjamaan ineiros inimino stepnem saccadewrk zbigniew xale ecraven fizzie XTL zedstar erikano annihilator dfeuer pchrist araujo 14:20:47 -!- names: framling davidh pygospa githogori jrapdx martin_hex DerGuteM1ritz tonyg_ jimrees__ leppie yell0 shardz ohwow fds mario-goulart daedric tali713 elly Riastradh frhodes srid yosafbridge Obfuscate shachaf C-Keen lusory rotty ve teiresias cataska em Hal9k weirdo pothos ft Intensity joast ToxicFrog eno rapacity fbs danking acarrico Euthydemus whitequark offby1 rudybot arbscht nowhere_man clog PreciousMetals confab z0d sepisultrum sloyd kpal Khisanth eli 14:20:48 -!- names: elliottcable gabot stamourv Pepe_ samth_away malorie docgnome MasseR incubot moll amgarching Adrinael xian weinholt felipe asumu ray kanru snarkyboojum askhader pjb _p4bl0 Axioplase evhan erg tizoc levi finnrobi gnomon gf3 dostoyevsky tauntaun duncanm foof aking klutometis 14:20:48 -niven.freenode.net:#scheme- [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 14:29:13 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:30:20 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:00 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-lsuacmdionknqtli] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:33:07 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:47 chomp [~chomp@dap-209-166-184-50.pri.tnt-3.pgh.pa.stargate.net] has joined #scheme 14:37:10 denisw [~denisw@dslb-094-222-022-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 14:37:32 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:37:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 14:44:57 Ivoz [cb811aca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.129.26.202] has joined #scheme 14:46:20 Hi there, I'm trying the SICP lectures with DrRacket; with a 'packaged' sqrt definition, I it won't allow the definitions of other functions inside it (expected only one expression). How should I differ from the video's code? 14:46:55 I think there's a sicp language mode in DrRacket. 14:47:26 Otherwise, just rename the variable. Eg. use "sqrt." instead of "sqrt". 14:47:27 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:47:52 no, it's case sensitive, so SQRT is fine 14:48:28 Ivoz: http://planet.plt-scheme.org/display.ss?package=sicp.plt&owner=neil 14:49:31 stamourv: do you know how I can use that? 14:50:33 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:50:36 Sure, just install the PLaneT package. 14:50:37 http://doc.racket-lang.org/planet/index.html?q=planet 14:50:50 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 14:51:18 So basically: raco planet install neil sicp 1 15 14:51:25 (at the command line). 14:51:41 running windows XD 14:51:52 Or just (require (planet "main.rkt" ("neil" "sicp.plt" 1 15))) 14:51:57 (from DrRacket). 14:52:02 And then click run. 14:52:06 That should install the package. 14:53:05 Once the package is installed, the package docs (also available on the PLaneT webpage) explain how to use it. 14:53:35 -!- tonyg_ is now known as tonyg 14:54:05 what do I download? 14:55:48 Nothing, DrRacket will install everything for you. 14:57:51 it seemed to come up with a lot of errors: 14:57:52 http://pastebin.com/s0mquYbH 14:59:06 Which version of DrRacket are you using? 14:59:20 latest 14:59:28 which language should I run that in? 15:00:53 From the language menu, pick "choose language from source" or something similar. 15:01:04 Then write '#lang racket' at the top of your file. 15:01:27 ok no errors that time 15:01:47 Great. 15:01:56 You probably were using one of the student languages. 15:02:13 then how do I find help what to do then? Is there somewhere this is written down? surely I'm not the first person to follow along these and come across this error 15:03:00 The PLaneT docs (see link above) should explain that. I'll re-read them to make sure. 15:06:26 Actually, SICP now turns up in the language chooser. Interestingly, R5RS runs it fine; SICP comes up with an error and a command line box :S 15:06:50 What are you trying to run? 15:06:56 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0/20110824172139]] 15:08:04 Actually no, run is fine, check syntax is not.. :S 15:08:43 http://pastebin.com/wFJai1FZ 15:09:28 Ah, don't worry about it. 15:09:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.69] has joined #scheme 15:09:43 It seems like the sicp language may not play nice with check syntax. 15:12:38 http://pastebin.com/ttRG8MYg is what the command box says 15:13:35 -!- rins [~rins@c-76-24-27-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:13:56 Right, I get the same thing. 15:14:27 I'l see what I can do about it, but in the meantime, you can still runs your programs and all, just not run check-syntax. 15:15:05 should r5rs be compatible? that works fine 15:15:39 (with sicp) 15:15:49 You can do most of SICP with the R5RS language, but you won't have stuff like the picture language, which is used in some sections. 15:16:03 ok 15:16:07 thanks very much :) 15:16:10 neilv's package includes that, but only from the SICP language. 15:16:35 No problem. If you have more questions, you're welcome to ask. 15:17:28 I swear the functional language irc channels are 10 x more forgiving and nicer than the imperative ones 15:18:05 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-177.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:18:07 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:18:13 It's easier to be in a good mood when you're writing Scheme all day. 15:18:18 :) 15:22:41 -!- dfjklaaf [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:29:04 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:30:44 HG` [~HG@p5DC051CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:30:51 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 15:36:22 dfjklaaf [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 15:40:13 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:40:25 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping 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18:38:15 bsod1 [~sinan@78.175.208.196] has joined #scheme 18:38:27 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@78.175.208.196] has left #scheme 18:40:07 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:43:16 tupi [~david@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 18:44:15 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 18:46:48 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:51:14 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:53:09 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:58:16 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 18:59:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 19:08:18 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:08:56 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:55 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #scheme 19:15:47 kellar [~kellar4@31.210.176.99] has joined #scheme 19:15:55 -!- kellar [~kellar4@31.210.176.99] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:22 kellar [~kellar4@31.210.176.99] has joined #scheme 19:17:48 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #scheme 19:17:56 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 19:17:56 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #scheme 19:23:25 peterhil` [~peterhil@GGYKCDX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 19:26:37 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 19:28:13 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:16 there's something puzzling me about scheme's syntax (i'm working through sicp) 19:28:32 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 19:28:37 why do I get the value of a symbol printed if I enter it in the repl, with no () 19:28:58 shouldn't everything be a function, and uniformly be invoked with (proc) syntax? 19:29:15 (op arg) means apply the operator op to the argument arg. 19:29:18 seems like a wart 19:29:25 (op) means apply the operator op to no argument. 19:29:42 kellar: you can do that, if you define all your variables to be functions. 19:29:49 (define pi (lambda () 3.14)) 19:29:50 (pi) 19:30:18 (define constantly (lambda (x) (lambda args x))) 19:30:18 I know, but take self-evaluating symbols, like number for example 19:30:22 (define pi (constantly 3.14) 19:30:33 numbers are not symbols. 19:30:38 They are objects. 19:31:28 I would expect anything entered at the REPL that does not m/^\(/ to be a syntax error 19:31:38 ignoring whitespace 19:31:42 You can write a repl that do that. 19:32:00 is there a specific reason why it isn't written like that? 19:32:12 lisp/scheme is supposed to have such beautiful uniform syntax 19:32:17 There are evaluation rules, as old as lisp. 19:32:20 why a special case here? 19:32:59 so it's just legacy? there's no deeper reason why it's that way? 19:33:02 it would make higher order functions fugly? 19:33:15 if the form is a symbol, then we fetch the value of te symbol else if it is an atom then we return it, else we check the first element of the list, if it's a function we evaluate the arguments and call the function, if it's a macro, we expand the macro, and if it's a special operator, we do what the special operator must do. 19:33:15 hmm, why?? 19:33:41 if foo is bound to a function I'd want to (map foo list) not (map (foo) (list)) 19:34:13 kellar: () always means function/macro application, I shouldn't always have to apply a function immediately 19:34:19 you mean you might have to do ((f) arg) 19:34:25 yeah, that's not nice 19:34:29 kellar: then (sin x) would have to be written ((((((... sin ...) )))) x) 19:34:37 it would confuse getting a value with applying it to no args 19:34:37 You would have to have an infinite number of parentheses. 19:35:10 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 19:35:37 I'm reminded by java getting bitten by the fact that some of it's primitive data types were not actually object. 19:35:59 and they introduced the captialized versiona and boxing/unboxing later. fugly as you say 19:36:06 That's not the case here. All lisp data are lisp objects. 19:36:50 still, wouldn't differentiation >1 with >(1) as the symbol 1 and it's value be cleaner? 19:37:11 it there no way to do that without marring all the other cases? 19:37:14 fuck! I said 1 is not a symbol! 19:37:16 Can't you learn? 19:37:29 thanks for your time. 19:37:33 calm down 19:37:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.69] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:40:21 kellar: I'm still not sure why you consider it unclean that there should be non-applicable objects 19:41:17 ijp: it's the syntax that bothers. I would consider an object returning a value to be an application without arguments. why is that wrong? 19:41:20 He's not asking about non-applicable objects, ijp. He's asking about non-non-applicable objects -- objects you can't *not* apply. 19:43:05 Maybe I should ask it another way. why isn't 1 treated like a procedure that takes no arguments and return 1? why is there such a thing as something that isn't a procedure but can be evaluated 19:43:11 to some value. 19:43:31 You need a base case in eval, which is recursivelly applied on all the elements of a function application list. Since symbols are used for two different purposes, this base case must decompose into two base cases: one for symbols which are used as values, and one for the other objects. 19:44:56 kellar: Also, this is lisp (or scheme), not lambda calculus. If you want to have only functions as data type, then you can program in lambda calculus. 19:48:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.69] has joined #scheme 19:50:45 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has left #scheme 19:53:39 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.209.232.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 19:55:00 kellar: Real languages need data. Even theoretical accounts of programming languages have included primitive data going as far back as ISWIM. 19:55:21 (which is lambda calculus + data) 19:57:15 Riastradh: Yes, but I'm still confused 19:58:06 asumu: ok. that very well might be true. but why can't data work differently? 19:59:03 that might be a bit philosophical 19:59:18 but is this a design choice or an unavoidable fact? 20:00:12 kellar, you could define the evaluation rule for () to yield the value of the number, and omit an evaluation rule for . The only good it would do is to make your evaluation rules and programs longer by a parenthesis per number. 20:01:24 s/good it would do/effect it would have/1 20:01:39 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:01:47 Riastradh: yes, that might be less pretty, but on the other hand, don't you eliminate a whole kind of "thing" from what exists in your language? 20:02:06 assuming for the moment that simpler is better 20:02:20 No. 20:02:51 -!- danly|work [~user@216.81.48.202.epikip.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:02:51 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:02:54 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:02 -!- saccadewrk [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-zruwxdtvuufqktec] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:02 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:02 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-25.netcologne.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:02 -!- thevishy 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malorie [~bla@chello084112144105.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 -!- evhan [~evhan@unaffiliated/evhan] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 -!- sloyd [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 -!- samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 -!- docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 -!- tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 -!- erg [~erg@li32-38.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:03:27 You still need a special evaluation rule for the form () just like you needed before for . 20:03:27 Gronk. 20:03:55 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:03:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.69] has 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has joined #scheme 20:03:56 aehrisch [~aehrisch@vhost.knauel.org] has joined #scheme 20:04:24 -!- srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ixtkopjvomblyjqn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:39 Riastradh: I might have missed your last line 20:04:47 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:04:49 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-172-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:49 `Don't you eliminate a whole kind of ``thing'' from what exists in your language?' No. 20:04:52 You still need a special evaluation rule for the form () just like you needed before for . 20:05:06 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-172-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:05:14 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:05:34 true 20:05:48 unless is a church numeral of course. 20:06:11 but number itself needen't a special kind of thing, that's the point 20:06:28 if I can do (f), why would I need a different evaluation rule for (1)? 20:06:43 if 1 and f are the same kind of thing as far as I'm concerned? 20:06:52 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-172-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:05 kellar: there's the same only if your numbers are Church numerals, or similar. 20:07:06 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-172-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:18 kellar: have you studied and tried to program in Lambda Calculus? 20:07:19 pothos_ [~pothos@111-240-172-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:07:29 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-172-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:07:32 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 20:08:44 I see the root of my confusion now; I was thinking his issue was with any non-'(foo ...)' style form, which includes regular variable reference 20:08:48 kellar, the evaluation rule for () is to evaluate , yielding a value that must be a procedure, and then to apply that procedure to zero arguments. 20:09:18 and thus my earlier objection was bogus 20:09:27 So when you evaluate (f), you first must evaluate f. When you evaluate (1), you first must evaluate 1 -- unless you have a special evaluation rule for (). 20:09:55 ahh, i just moved the problem one level down 20:10:13 recursion, base case, see above... 20:11:12 ofcourse somewhere, a cpu register must hold the value 1, but the language might have made it look like 1 is a procedure to ME, and did whatever it wanted behind the curtain 20:11:25 scheme exposes the difference as different syntax 20:11:57 really, just to keep the number of parantheses down? if so, their not very successfull :) 20:11:57 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:12:33 You never read the source of eval either... 20:13:38 On the contrary, what you propose would be just to keep the number of parentheses up. 20:13:42 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:45 ahh, youre all right, what would (1) return? it can't return itself. right, somewhere it has to be evaluated to something other then a function, like you said 20:14:00 You must be careful to distinguish evaluation rules from application rules. 20:14:01 silly question 20:14:23 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:15:08 If you want numbers to be applicable, so that if x has the value two then the expression (x) the value two as well, that entails adding an application rule (for when the operator is a number), but you still need some way to write literal numbers in the first place, for which you need an evaluation rule. If you eschew evaluation rules for () and , then how will you write numbers literally in your program? 20:15:18 -!- weirdo [sthalik@2001:470:7841:dead::1] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:19 -!- whitequark [~whitequar@dagaz.whitequark.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:19 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:19 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:19 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- incubot [~incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- moll [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- amgarching [~matveev@2001:4ca0:2608:0:6ef0:49ff:fe0e:153a] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- _p4bl0 [~user@berthold.shebang.ws] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- MasseR [~masse@dyn68-323.yok.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- askhader [~askhader@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:21 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:22 -!- asumu [~at@2001:470:b:b7:1e6f:65ff:fe23:c3d4] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:22 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:22 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:22 -!- xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:22 -!- sepisultrum [tveew6iviu@hcl-club.lu] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:22 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:15:23 havn't reached the implementation in the book, so maybe I should have waited 20:15:24 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 20:15:26 askhader [~askhader@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has joined 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#scheme 20:16:24 kanru [~kanru@2001:470:c:cd6::2] has joined #scheme 20:16:29 -!- offby1 [~user@ec2-204-236-167-175.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:16:29 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 20:16:51 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 20:16:53 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 20:16:55 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:37 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 20:18:09 I havn't reached the guts of the evaluator in SICP yet, so maybe my questions are "not even wrong" 20:18:15 but, when I type 2 at the REPL and get 2 back. are those two things different kinds of things? 20:18:22 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 20:18:48 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:18:48 -!- fbs [fbs@fsf/member/fbs] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:18:48 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-33-222.gmavt.net] has 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[~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-164.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:19:18 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:18 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-102-119.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 20:19:23 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-33-222.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 20:19:34 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:19:34 evhan [~evhan@unaffiliated/evhan] has joined #scheme 20:19:45 They're the same: (eq? 2 (eval 2 (null-environment))) 20:20:26 sloyd [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has joined #scheme 20:20:28 weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.lain.pl] has joined #scheme 20:20:28 C-Keen [cckeen@213.95.11.194] has joined #scheme 20:20:32 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Client Quit] 20:21:32 thanks everyone for trying to help, I'll try again after I've finished the book if I still don't grok it. 20:22:50 kellar: perhaps you should read AIM-8, the original paper: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 20:24:04 rudybot: (eq? 2 (eval 2 (null-environment 5))) 20:24:05 pjb: your r5rs sandbox is ready 20:24:05 pjb: ; Value: #t 20:25:24 whitequark [~whitequar@dagaz.whitequark.org] has joined #scheme 20:26:24 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 20:26:55 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #scheme 20:29:45 blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 20:30:09 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:45:51 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 20:49:23 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@bd21c006.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 20:49:43 leppie [~lolcow@196.209.232.154] has joined #scheme 20:52:02 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:52:53 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 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[~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:26:39 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:30:24 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 22:30:48 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:33:01 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:35 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:53:02 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:47 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.209.232.154] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:31 leppie [~lolcow@196.209.232.154] has joined #scheme 23:20:02 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:48 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:28:37 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:29:28 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #scheme 23:29:44 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.209.232.154] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:30 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-175-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:14 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:36:42 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:55 leppie [~lolcow@196.209.232.154] has joined #scheme 23:38:37 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 23:39:48 HG` [~HG@p5DC0556F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:41:18 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC0556F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:44 -!- weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.lain.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:43:56 weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.lain.pl] has joined #scheme 23:44:54 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:44:56 kellar: Take a look at John Backus' 1977 Turing Lecture (), where he describes a language FP; FP has a functional form CONSTANT which is required to express constants like 2. 23:44:57 http://tinyurl.com/3v47uup 23:46:24 kellar: In Felix Winkelmann's implementation of FP (), you need to write things like this, therefore, for factorial: 23:46:26 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:46:27 fac = eq.[id, ~0] -> ~1; mul.[id, fac.sub.[id, ~1]] 23:47:33 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #scheme 23:47:37 Notice that each constant isn't self-evaluating: it needs to be evaluated by `~'; you might argue that this is more consistent than Scheme, but it's a pain in the ass. 23:48:26 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Client Quit] 23:50:36 thanks! 23:54:44 ahh, i've seen this paper mentioned in several places. 23:54:47 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.209.232.154] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:24 davidh` [~user@f053004151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 23:58:58 -!- davidh [~user@f053009083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:59:46 -!- tali713 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