00:00:29 Any sequence of imperative commands can be thought of as a composition of functions from states of the world to states of the world. In other words, every imperative program `has the same semantics as the purely functional world view'. 00:00:48 Whether you think about it as a sequence of stack-frobbing commands or a composition of stack-frobbing functions, you still need to do flow analysis and keep state in your head to read a concatenative program. 00:00:51 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 00:01:40 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:02:13 Riastradh: Is it referential transparency, then, that properly distinguishes functional programs? 00:03:02 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 00:03:30 -!- blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:48 It's a choice of how to organize your programs. Do you organize your Haskell programs entirely in the IO monad? Do all your function types unify with `a -> IO b'? If so, your program is probably pretty imperative, and there is only very limited reasoning that the functional nature of Haskell enables. 00:14:39 davidh [~user@f053013083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 00:14:40 -!- danly|work [~user@216.81.48.202.epikip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:26:15 fizzie [fis@iris.zem.fi] has joined #scheme 00:26:25 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:30:34 wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 00:46:41 kellar [~kellar4@94.230.86.40] has joined #scheme 00:48:13 hi, I'm working through SICP and I can't get the example code in 2.6 to do what I expect. using mit-scheme. 00:48:44 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-14.html#%_thm_2.6 00:48:48 advice? 00:51:09 what did you do, what do you expect to happen, and what actually happens? 00:55:34 well, all i get are procedures, how are those replacements for numbers? 00:55:56 the usual integer-equal and + don't work, how can I do math with procedures?? 00:56:22 I expected (zero) to give 0. naive I suppose. 00:56:39 no 00:56:48 the whole point is to implement numbers without using native numbers at all 00:57:04 so the procedure zero is a *procedure*, and that is how zero is represented 00:57:24 well, how do I test for equality then? 00:57:38 (= (add-1 zero) (add-1 zero)) barfs 00:58:34 you need to write a special equality predicate for that type of number 00:58:44 based on what common property? 00:59:08 if your representation of the number n was as, say, a list of length n, you would not expect = to work on those either 00:59:16 no, I agree 00:59:23 I suspect that the answer to your question is an exercise to the reader :) 00:59:28 but don't I get a new procedure each time I call (add-1 zero)? 00:59:37 you do, yes 00:59:39 I can't even test if it's the same entry in the symbol table 00:59:45 correct 01:00:04 but if you had '(1 2) and '(2 3) and were using list-length representation, those would represent the same integer without in any way being equal 01:00:30 so there is something a little more subtle than _representational_ equality in play 01:01:12 it's still pretty early in the book, so it can't be too exotic 01:01:23 well 01:01:29 I can try to deliver a hint 01:01:42 I can't count the amount of nesting of lambda or something like that 01:01:42 let's say that we (define two (add-1 (add-1 zero))) 01:01:54 does that definition of two make sense? 01:02:04 absolutely 01:02:56 so on what arguments can two be called? 01:03:00 and what happens when you call it? 01:05:10 (do you want another hint?) 01:05:17 no 01:05:27 i'll think about this for a few minutes 01:05:28 alright :) 01:05:43 if you look at the structure of add-1, it is clear that two returns a procedure, right? 01:08:50 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:10 I appreciate the help very much, but I'd like to try to puzzle it out myself. you learn more that way. 01:10:34 enjoy, then :) 01:10:59 i'll be back if I fall into despair... :) 01:11:32 -!- deke [~deke@fl-71-54-189-181.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:32 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:20:27 ok, let's see if I got this right 01:22:18 annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:26 using add-1 n times return a procedures which takes a procedure f as an argument and returns a procedure which takes an argument x and repeatedly applies f to x n times? 01:22:30 that can't be right 01:22:43 who\s this church guy anyway? ;) 01:23:09 Alonzo Church :) 01:23:17 why can that not be right? 01:23:33 too convoluted 01:24:07 your description is right, though 01:24:20 that's pretty cool 01:24:23 that is how one represents numbers in the lambda calculus 01:25:37 and so i can choose x and define f to be any function which generates a unique value for any number of applications? 01:25:46 and test for equality on the result? 01:25:53 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:26:05 that sounds gauche 01:26:10 can you think of a better way? 01:26:17 (that might work, though :P) 01:26:31 does it have to be none-gauche? 01:27:28 gauche, adj: "Lacking ease or grace; unsophisticated and socially awkward." 01:27:41 thank you, that helped 01:30:45 -!- wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:33:01 no, I can't. all i have are two procedures which accept a value as an argument and return a value. How can I tell if their equal not based on the equality of the value they return for the same input? 01:33:25 You can't. 01:33:37 that's what I thought. so what am I missing? 01:33:41 pjb: you spoiled it :P 01:33:53 You can test if you have only one, with eq? or you can do maths on the sources if you have them. 01:34:12 "eq?" ? 01:34:19 new to scheme here. 01:34:20 or eqv? 01:34:26 eq? is an equality predicate 01:34:33 'is' rather than 'equal' 01:35:01 wel, that doesn't help because the procedures may be identical in function, but they are not identical "objects" 01:35:02 elly: no, eq? is an identity predicate. 01:35:13 right? 01:35:19 pjb: I think the thing I said is also correct 01:35:40 Indeed, there's also the problem of closures, and if two procedure are not eq? you cannot infer anything. 01:35:46 they may still be the same. 01:35:56 so... church was wrong? 01:36:02 elly: well, yes, but it's less precise. 01:37:21 huh? no, you can represent nonnegative integers using lambdas 01:37:21 jrapdx [~jra@rrcs-98-100-85-130.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:37:31 and you can construct an equality predicate on them, even 01:37:38 Sure. 01:37:42 you gave a way to do such above 01:37:47 (kellar did, rather) 01:37:55 I was just pointing out that the way you suggested seems inelegant 01:37:58 not that it wouldn't work 01:38:03 (it does work) 01:38:19 i don't see the better way that suggested? 01:38:36 does the eq? predicate work as such as test? 01:38:38 I don't either 01:38:51 no, because eq? can't tell you if two functions are identical behaviorally 01:38:52 ah, typos 01:39:06 right. so I thought. 01:39:20 so, is my in-elegent way the only way? 01:39:28 I don't know :) 01:40:16 I'll rephrase. can you suggest another way? 01:40:55 no, I can't 01:41:03 if I could, I'd knot if your way was the only way 01:41:06 er, I'd know if 01:41:11 yeah 01:41:25 so what was the point of asking me if I can think of a better way? :) 01:41:34 to make you think about it 01:41:38 (and also because I want to know!) 01:41:41 did you think I'd solve P =NP, just because I didn't know it was a hard problem? 01:42:04 just because I don't know the answer doesn't mean it's hard :P 01:42:45 you bastard. :) 01:43:25 *elly* . o O ( Is there a female form of "bastard"? Is it even gendered? ) 01:43:41 bitch 01:43:51 I think that has different connotations :P 01:46:01 thanks for prodding me towards a solution. you get a demerit for toying with me though... 01:46:29 luckily I'm past the stage of my life where I care about such things :P 01:46:44 kellar: One idea - since its unary arithmetic, Zero = Zero, S(N) != Zero, S(n) = S(m) iff n = m. Which leaves you with the problems of subtracting one, and of determining if something is zero. 01:49:02 oh and S is 'add1' 01:49:58 I remember doing this in predicate calculus :) it is very pretty 01:52:13 ijp: I'm not sure I understand. unless I have some gurantee S(n) being 1:1, wouldn;'t i have to test for every x such that n=m=x? 01:52:49 since these are functions, they may have the same value for the same input even if they are diffenr functions 01:54:27 you can assume that you are being passed a number constructed with zero and add-1 01:54:54 the fact that you can get numbers 'by hand' is an accident of not having strong static typing here and you should pretend it's impossible :) 01:55:33 I still don't see how his suggestion works 01:57:02 S(n) and S(m) here would not "=" even if they represent the same number 01:57:30 what opeartion does the = sign stand for in this case? 01:57:55 kellar: Church numbers are special functions. 01:59:52 kellar: if S isn't 1:1, then your arithmetic is broken 01:59:55 -!- dfjklaaf [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:01:03 -!- XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:01:17 LTX [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 02:01:22 ijp: S in this case returns procedures, which itself is paramterized by a higher order function 02:01:26 -!- LTX is now known as XTL 02:01:33 what does equality stand for in this case? 02:02:06 or alternatively, if parameterize the resulting procedure by whatever function I won't, it needen't be one to one. suppose I pass it the identity function. 02:02:32 argghhh. my english is really much better then that. 02:05:52 X-Scale [email@89.181.105.101] has joined #scheme 02:07:30 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1873] 02:11:59 kellar: so you were asking what if ((add-1 zero) (lambda (x) (x))) ? 02:14:39 I was trying to understand what you meant by equality 02:15:21 if S(m), S(n) returns a procedure, equality needs some clarification 02:16:37 let's suppose i have an equality predicate '=', do you agree that if S(m) = S(n), then m = n ? 02:16:40 the same sequence of operations? the same chunk of code in memory? 02:16:58 yes 02:17:24 if S is 1:1 02:17:32 then we can punt all the way down till either m or n is zero 02:17:46 if both are zero, then the numbers were equal 02:17:53 if only one was zero, they aren't 02:18:07 and for zero we can just use eq? 02:18:17 assuming a unique zero 02:19:09 you mean because all add-1 are seeded with the same zero (Same as in same symbol)? 02:19:11 that we are using procedures to encode arithmetic is just an implementation detail, these are the axioms of arithmetic 02:19:20 that's like counting the numbers of nested lambdas 02:19:33 yeah, that'll work 02:21:20 but wait 02:21:35 how do we punt all the way down to zero? there' no subtract operation 02:21:42 not yet! 02:21:47 hah 02:21:48 kellar: you will not that I said that earlier 02:21:49 not you again 02:21:50 note* 02:21:57 sorry, missed that 02:22:14 so you did 02:22:21 subtraction is slightly trickier than addition in the lambda calculus 02:23:44 how so? 02:23:55 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:23:57 this is all new to me 02:24:30 well it's possible to do, I meant slightly trickier to derive 02:25:54 I've reach this through learning scheme and SICP, not lambda calculus per se, so it all ties in with implementation details in scheme 02:26:45 how on earth could you formulate a procedure which strips lambdas from a procedure? 02:27:03 that's easy 02:27:13 actually... you just apply it once. 02:27:34 it's not lambda's you need to strip, but applications 02:28:32 Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 02:28:53 (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f (f x)))) -> (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x))) 02:31:41 hmm, that's nonsense, you can't apply it just once. 02:32:48 how would this be implemented? 02:34:02 it looks like in order to implement a dec-1 procedure you need a dec-1 procedure 02:34:21 Hmm, can't remember off-hand, but I think you need to pass in appropriate values of f and x and have the body evaluate to the desired procedure 02:34:47 I did say it was tricky 02:34:58 and there are general f and x which do this no mater what "number" procedure? 02:35:34 there should be 02:35:51 I don't think it works for zero 02:36:17 interesting, got a reference? 02:38:47 twik [~twik@129-97-229-101.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 02:40:46 for a predecessor function? the 'church numerals' wikipedia page should have one 02:41:24 there is no predecessor of zero, so that makes sense 02:42:05 How silly elly's jokes can be sometimes. Of course everyone knows the predecessor of zero is pi. 02:42:32 hi Riastradh 02:42:51 Hi. 02:42:57 Riastradh: you seem like the sort of chap who gets really excited about social networks! 02:44:03 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:44:17 Yes...totally. 02:44:21 *hiccup* 02:45:36 Riastradh: what do you think of the concept embodied in ? 02:46:02 (conceptual explanation here: http://www.leptoquark.net/~elly/blog/#2011.246.48162) 02:47:01 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:50:19 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:51:44 It's not obvious to me from that example what functions you intend one to be able to do with it. 02:52:29 That is, you have a pile of information there; what does piling the information there in that format achieve, or let me achieve? 02:52:42 the motivating example is to assert that a particular key "owns" a bunch of URLs 02:53:02 (to go with an assertion, posted at that URL, that that is my key) 02:54:10 it also allows people to spider the social graph if they feel so inclined by following my links entries 02:54:21 and having done so to find people who have particular tags attached to themselves 02:58:44 (liz and I are saying "lsbn mrrg" back and forth to each other because you can pronounce it a seemingly infinite variety of ways) 02:59:14 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-255-183.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:01:27 elly: :-P 03:03:02 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:07 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:03:17 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:05:47 -!- kellar is now known as qtk 03:05:55 *qtk* blends in 03:07:22 hey, where'd the new person go? 03:08:30 :-O 03:08:41 evening cky 03:20:52 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 03:20:52 elly: Heya! 03:20:58 hello 03:21:39 elly: I had some new thoughts as regards the whole nymwars thing, if that's still your area of interest. :-P 03:22:03 elly: Well, it's probably nothing new, but I've been away from Google+ for a while, so haven't really caught up with the times. :-P 03:22:04 the general discourse about that is incredibly fatiguing 03:22:13 Okay, I shall not mention it further, then. 03:23:15 I would be interested to hear a new viewpoint, but I believe all the viewpoints I've seen so far have been done to death 03:23:34 Yeah, pretty much. :-( 03:24:07 Well, to change the topic, and since you mentioned discourse: http://dyscourse.tumblr.com/ :-D 03:25:29 mmm, fold. 03:25:40 I know, right? :-) 03:25:56 I'm about 60% through writing part 2, and not started on part 3 yet. :-P 03:26:08 this entry is neither salty nor sweet 03:26:16 I'm sorry. :-( 03:26:29 I would describe it as 'crunchy', with a side-order of surprise that w3m handles unicode arrows properly 03:26:37 Hehehehe. :-D 03:26:38 -!- fervor [~user@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:51 I'm glad that Tumblr doesn't mess up those characters, too. 03:27:11 I wrote the whole post using Markdown, and Tumblr handled it surprisingly well. 03:28:06 *elly* stifles giggles about tumblr 03:28:17 I hold in my head the (entirely unfair) stereotype that tumblr is 99% lgbt blogs 03:28:33 Yay for LGBT blogs! :-) 03:28:42 (Isn't that also true of Dreamwidth?) 03:28:49 dreamwidth is excellent 03:29:04 I used dreamwidth a couple of times but I found that a plain HTML file is less hassle 03:29:14 I signed up for a Dreamwidth account lately, but I'm still trying to decide what to write in it. 03:29:37 I used to write straight HTML, but once I learnt Markdown (as I had to in order to use Stack Overflow), I find that I can't leave Markdown. It's just too awesome. 03:30:01 http://www.leptoquark.net/~elly/blog straight HTML :) 03:30:13 Yeah, I got that on second reading, silly me. :-) 03:30:33 On which note, have you used (or are you using) ikiwiki? 03:30:54 It's just a bunch of HTML files checked into git, IIRC, but, I haven't used it enough to be 100% sure on that. 03:30:58 no, I haven't 03:32:32 You know, though, re Dreamwidth, I'm reminded of how small a world the online world is. 03:33:04 me too 03:33:15 Many, many years ago, before LiveJournal and Dreamwidth, I got in touch with Denise once, back when she was known as Kyrrin on kuro5hin. 03:34:14 I thought she was a cool person, but I know that many LJers disliked her when she headed up LJ's abuse team. Can't win when you're in that position, I guess. 03:36:55 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #scheme 03:40:47 elly: BTW, on a related note, if you're interested in LGBT and trans-friendly spaces on IRC, maybe I humbly suggest #stackoverflow? Most of the chanops are some shade of queer, and it's a pretty awesome place (in my humble and admittedly biased opinion). :-) 03:41:08 I can't switch windows without hitting a queer-friendly space these days, cky, but thanks for the offer :) 03:41:20 Nice. :-) 03:42:18 (I consider #scheme a reasonably queer-friendly place, for that matter...) 03:42:51 That's awesome to know. :-) 03:44:37 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:45:17 *elly* -> z 03:45:21 Have fun! 03:53:14 -!- annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:53:58 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:54:22 annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:56:01 -!- twik [~twik@129-97-229-101.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:56:33 -!- Sysop_fb [~bleh@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:01:52 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 04:11:49 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 04:14:20 how do I reset the definition of built in procedures if I defined over them? 04:15:11 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:15:44 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:17:42 xrt [~xrt@adsl-99-60-228-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:20:48 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:21:34 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:30:54 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 04:31:41 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 04:43:38 -!- rins [~rins@c-76-24-27-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:46:28 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 04:46:32 MichaelRaskin 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[cckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #scheme 09:38:58 shachaf [~shachaf@204.109.63.130] has joined #scheme 09:38:58 takamoron [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #scheme 09:45:10 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has left #scheme 09:47:52 Suppose you have a set of variables and a set of rules for calculating the values of the variables. Because of the data dependencies encoded by the rules, you need to compute the variables in a suitable order. Each rule can be examined to see which variables it depends on. Is there a standard name for such variables? I started with "dependent variables", but I think that is exactly the opposite (since the variables don't depend on the rule) of what 09:47:52 I'm trying to express. 10:07:01 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:18:36 replore_ [~replore@g1-223-25-188-251.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:31:08 -!- replore_ [~replore@g1-223-25-188-251.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:12 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-qlsdduxinnhipbpp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:27 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ljiuqmxywoqzrzlk] has joined #scheme 10:36:41 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ljiuqmxywoqzrzlk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:45 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ybgpmdcsiwmavfgu] has joined #scheme 10:49:46 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc3-brig16-2-0-cust858.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:51:58 amoe [~amoe@cpc3-brig16-2-0-cust858.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 11:00:56 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-157-221.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has left #scheme 11:11:08 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:12:18 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 11:24:38 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-72-37.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:59 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:31:08 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 11:46:36 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #scheme 11:53:19 Is there a command like (string-set-value! string "new value") 11:53:38 hm 11:53:45 (set! string "new value")? 11:53:52 I only see string-set! in r5rs... 11:53:53 rudybot: eval (define str "hello") 11:53:53 ohwow: your sandbox is ready 11:53:53 ohwow: Done. 11:53:56 hmmm... 11:53:59 rudybot: eval str 11:53:59 ohwow: ; Value: "hello" 11:54:05 rudybot: eval (set! str "there") 11:54:06 ohwow: Done. 11:54:08 rudybot: eval str 11:54:08 ohwow: ; Value: "there" 11:54:12 ohwow: Heh... :) 11:55:57 annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 11:56:32 set! basically works on every variable 11:56:49 and since Scheme is untyped you can set! string for example 12:01:52 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-186-199-196.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:47 ijp [~user@host86-182-157-221.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:10:35 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ybgpmdcsiwmavfgu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:41 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-wuscfojvdmbdyrdr] has joined #scheme 12:15:25 djcb_ [djcb@nat/nokia/x-gldlvctrazfrhsbh] has joined #scheme 12:15:25 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-wuscfojvdmbdyrdr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:45 ijp` [~user@host86-182-157-221.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:19:48 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-157-221.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:31:24 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:32:14 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 12:35:00 Harrold [~quassel@dhcp-101-103.hpsc-staff.carleton.ca] has joined #scheme 12:35:14 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 12:36:59 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:37:19 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:37:50 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 12:47:18 -!- Harrold [~quassel@dhcp-101-103.hpsc-staff.carleton.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:47:57 tupi [~david@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 12:51:29 Harrold [~quassel@dhcp-101-103.hpsc-staff.carleton.ca] has joined #scheme 13:06:42 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:09:40 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 13:16:51 xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has joined #scheme 13:20:28 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:24:39 I want to write a version of case that supports strings... `(case "hmm" ("hmm" 'works) ((else) 'no))' 13:28:06 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:13 -!- Harrold [~quassel@dhcp-101-103.hpsc-staff.carleton.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:32:06 (eval-case "test" ("test" 'works) ('else 'no)) <- looks very hacky but makes writing my disassembler so much easier... 13:34:42 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 13:56:34 -!- djcb_ [djcb@nat/nokia/x-gldlvctrazfrhsbh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:54 dfeuer [~dfeuer@96.241.126.56] has joined #scheme 13:56:54 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-vxkzktpyxoddlmrk] has joined #scheme 13:56:54 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@96.241.126.56] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:54 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 14:01:40 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:07:46 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.123.139] has joined #scheme 14:17:20 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:20:02 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-139.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:20:09 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.123.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:09 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 14:22:11 dostoyevsky: (match) perhaps? if you are using racket 14:25:34 -!- jrapdx [~jra@rrcs-98-100-85-130.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:30:33 denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-103-196-156.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-139.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:00 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-177.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 14:38:44 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-72-37.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 14:40:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-118-122.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:41:57 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:42:22 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:47:24 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-176.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:49:18 ahinki_ [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 14:51:02 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-151-176.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:51:32 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:51:44 -!- ahinki_ is now known as ahinki 14:52:40 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:52:50 why match? just a simple marco around cond 14:53:32 dostoyevsky: it might be easier to make your eqv? return the same as string=? :) 14:54:23 (then you CAN use case) 14:54:58 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-176.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:55:34 No, because case may use the original value of eqv?, or even have it inlined. 14:57:22 He's writing the implementation, pjb. Whatever the merit of changing the semantics of EQV? may be, it's not a matter of redefinition or shadowing (and if it were, `may' is wrong, anyway). 14:57:35 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-151-176.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:57:36 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:57:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-118-122.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 14:58:31 Oh right, if he writes it, he can do that. 14:59:19 ahinki_ [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 14:59:57 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:01:30 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:01:41 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:07 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 15:06:06 -!- ahinki_ [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:09:48 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 15:10:35 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0/20110824172139]] 15:15:48 does R7RS allow one to create a module anywhere (thus lexically scoped) or are they more like R6RS libraries? 15:16:16 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #scheme 15:16:19 They are like R6RS libraries, and are only defined for the top-level. 15:16:33 WG2 may consider lexical modules. 15:16:38 :( so why change the name? 15:16:52 -!- denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-103-196-156.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17:04 denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-103-196-156.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 15:19:50 they're incompatible with R6RS libraries, afaik 15:20:34 not sure if it's just surface syntax or some deeper stuff (phasing?) 15:21:13 i dont know either amoe :) 15:24:17 It's surface syntax mostly. 15:24:35 Semantically there is little difference. 15:24:52 And here I mean if we remain withing the world of WG1. 15:24:57 Where phases are irrelevant. 15:29:54 leppie: Ok, may look into that.. Looks like I do many last workarounds to get the compiler started that I have to implement properly later... 15:31:40 dfjklaaf [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 15:34:45 leppie: I also want to do proper scoping of libraries... some kind of namespace/package mechanism would be good 15:42:06 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:42:37 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfc008.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:43:08 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfc008.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:39 dostoyevsky, r6rs/r7rs library names are lists of symbols, so it has already means of namespacing 15:51:11 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:17 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:55:27 -!- srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-okmlceypinnsxirn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:30 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 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[~huateng@2001:da8:e000:1a08:92e6:baff:fe4d:45d] has joined #scheme 18:23:15 hello everyone 18:24:18 -!- vlose [~huateng@2001:da8:e000:1a08:92e6:baff:fe4d:45d] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-130-139.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:31:23 -!- dbushenko [~dim@93.125.19.189] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:38:23 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f769c26.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:39:56 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f77b86e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:47:40 deke [~deke@fl-71-54-189-181.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 18:53:10 skchrko [~sk@gateway/tor-sasl/skchrko] has joined #scheme 18:54:09 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:55:19 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 18:55:36 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@host159-158-dynamic.56-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: ] 18:56:10 -!- skchrko [~sk@gateway/tor-sasl/skchrko] has quit [Quit: 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[~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 20:39:47 Holy shit: Felix Winkelmann (of Chicken fame) wrote an FP compiler: . 20:39:52 Sysop_fb [~bleh@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:40:47 Manfred von Thun lead me here: ; and I wondered: "do any FP compilers exist?" 20:40:49 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:41:22 And it's bizarre to me that it's not better publicized here: . 20:42:22 klutometis: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/fp/ 20:42:44 klutometis: https://github.com/bunny351/FurryPaws 20:48:06 framling [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:48:29 mario-goulart: Thanks for the github link; it's amazing that Felix finds spare time for things like that. Maybe some of his Chicken experience was applicable? 20:48:55 klutometis: I think he uses these "small" projects to experiment and learn stuff he can use to improve Chicken 20:49:26 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:51:02 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 20:53:02 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 20:55:26 klutometis: I'd say the C backend is likely to be derived from his chicken experience. 20:55:27 sjamaan: Ah, interesting; I guess Felix hasn't deprived me of the opportunity to write an FP compiler for learning purposes, but I'm sceptical that I can match the efficiency of even his one-off projects. 20:55:55 heh, good point 20:56:23 I think he mentioned FP was a very elegant language which lent itself well for optimization 20:57:33 mario-goulart: Yeah; his FP even has FFI. I wonder if that makes it usable for cute little projects or "fuck you" submissions to programming competitions. 20:57:47 HA! 20:58:33 sjamaan: He was able to sneak TCO in there; it looks he has some kind of four-pass optimizing compiler. 20:58:36 An FP submission to the ICFP programming contest. That would be on topic. 20:58:40 Heh. 21:00:00 felix is impressive 21:05:43 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 21:09:32 -!- woonie2 [~woonie@nusnet-199-177.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 21:16:40 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:21:49 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 21:22:49 hoi 21:23:39 presenting on R7RS to LispNYC tonight, if anyone wants to fly in 21:27:30 jcowan: Oh, nice; I don't suppose they're webcasting it? 21:28:50 imran_sr [~imran@99-72-224-160.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:29:37 And I don't suppose you're talking from slides you'd like to share? 21:29:53 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:29:59 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:30:23 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:49 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:31:02 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:31:40 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:51 No, but a recording will be made (unless there are problems with the equipment, as there were last month) 21:33:06 I am talking from slides,which I will share afterwards. I'm still dinking them. 21:41:02 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC051CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG``] 21:42:05 dfjklaaf [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 21:48:07 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:48:36 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:55:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:18 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:20 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:16:57 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:17:26 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:43:53 -!- imran_sr [~imran@99-72-224-160.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:43:59 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@GZYCMLXXII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:46 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:50:59 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:26 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:16:41 kellar [~kellar4@94.230.82.196] has joined #scheme 23:18:28 are scheme and common-lisp different enough to merit learning them both? or are the differences syntactic-sugar deep only? 23:19:27 that's not considered trolling, I hope. 23:25:47 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.237.156] has joined #scheme 23:26:06 kellar: When I was on PAIP, I thought: "What the hell, I'll do it in Scheme." 23:26:19 I decided in the end to use Lisp, and it was sufficiently differenty. 23:26:30 Irritatingly different, but sufficient nontheless. 23:26:47 s/differenty/different/ 23:27:07 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-109-139.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:27:08 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:29:01 -!- kellar [~kellar4@94.230.82.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:08 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.175.107] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:40:12 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:42:37 kellar [~kellar4@31.210.176.99] has joined #scheme 23:56:10 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-157-221.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:57:19 davidh` [~user@f053009083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 23:57:33 Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 23:58:38 -!- davidh [~user@f053013083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]