00:00:12 (Is it accurate to say that if (equal? a a) always implies (eq? a a), then a is immutable?) 00:00:35 ((As a general principle followed by lisps.)) 00:01:23 Uh, that was badly worded. I meant to use a as a type, not a value. 00:01:40 I think you meant, are all interned types immutable? 00:01:52 I think it'd be silly to have mutable interned types. 00:02:18 Well, they'd have to be immutable for the implementation to intern them, so that sounds circular. 00:02:28 Hehehehe. 00:03:18 But if you want (equal? a a) => (eq? a a) for all a of type T, that implies that T is an interned type. 00:04:29 (For our discussions here, I consider booleans, fixnums, nil, etc. to be interned types.) 00:04:57 Symbols, obviously, are interned. (Bar implementations that provide uninterned symbols, which I'm not going to mention any further. :-P) 00:07:24 -!- _rvn [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:44 Well, if "intern" is a synonym for "immutable" (which it might be in scheme; I don't know) 00:08:15 "internet", that is 00:08:25 Bah, "interned" 00:08:48 It's not a synonym; there are immutable types that are not interned. 00:09:01 e.g., Racket's conses are, by default, immutable. However, I don't think they're interned. 00:10:05 You can also create record types that are completely immutable. I don't think they are interned either. 00:15:40 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfd13a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:15:49 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f768ee0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 00:21:22 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 00:27:16 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 00:28:29 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95DBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 00:29:54 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:34:38 I thought the point of immutable data is that you can avoid interning it, that you can copy it at will. 00:34:46 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #scheme 00:35:20 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:35:22 ve_ [~a@193.62.81.27] has joined #scheme 00:35:37 -!- ve_ is now known as ve 00:38:22 pjb: ? That's the first I've ever heard of that. 00:38:50 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f768ee0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:39:00 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfcbb4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 00:45:45 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.142.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:49:30 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:50:40 smtlaissezfaire_ [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 00:53:34 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:53:35 -!- smtlaissezfaire_ is now known as smtlaissezfaire 01:06:29 You can intern or not intern immutable data at will 01:06:31 -!- dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:08:28 Exactly. 01:09:03 So I'm not sure why interning entered the discussion 01:09:33 Jafet: I was just answering your (equal? a a) => (eq? a a) thingy. 01:12:49 Sure, but not completely (because as you said, immutable types are not always interned) 01:13:34 Though you're right that the converse isn't true 01:18:44 erikano_ [~erikano@man.i.wish.i.had.an.irish.setter.co] has joined #scheme 01:19:18 -!- erikano [~erikano@man.i.wish.i.had.an.irish.setter.co] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:21:24 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfcbb4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:21:34 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f768c4d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 01:26:57 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@184.18.7.169] has quit [Quit: WeeChat [quit]] 01:33:48 *nods* 01:42:06 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-145-11.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:45:14 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 01:54:20 Jafet: That's the first time I've seen double-parens in English; which is pretty cool, actually, as an parenthetical analogy to P.P.S. and P.S. 01:56:44 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 01:57:54 -!- bgs100 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[~djcb@nat/nokia/x-eirtsmtmsqzxnrfl] has joined #scheme 12:36:30 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-lkveakfosfmusctg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:40 -!- djcb_ [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-eirtsmtmsqzxnrfl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:45 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-ykkclktvzywgwccy] has joined #scheme 12:54:17 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 12:54:44 masm [~masm@bl19-142-4.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:56:33 djcb_ [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-qsegdokfulttcpvn] has joined #scheme 12:56:33 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-ykkclktvzywgwccy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:15 alexshendi [~alexshend@81.253.35.47] has joined #scheme 13:02:08 Hello folks! Can anybody answer a question about Oaklisp? 13:02:17 -!- djcb_ [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-qsegdokfulttcpvn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:34 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-csihrgletnpxcins] has joined #scheme 13:02:35 xissburg_ [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has joined #scheme 13:03:54 alexshendi: I've used it only for about a week 13:04:17 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:04:42 wolf__ [~wolf@180.109.156.30] has joined #scheme 13:05:07 -!- xissburg_ is now known as |_[]|_ 13:07:38 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-csihrgletnpxcins] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:56 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-pyaqwoggovfitgfv] has joined #scheme 13:08:44 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.50] has joined #scheme 13:08:51 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-92.cust.tele2.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:51 -!- sloyd [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:52 -!- sepisultrum [z1b5s813bg@hcl-club.lu] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:53 -!- poucet [~chris@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:53 -!- aehrisch [~aehrisch@vhost.knauel.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:54 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.50] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:54 -!- alexshendi [~alexshend@81.253.35.47] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:54 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:54 -!- dfjklaaf [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:54 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-adtevceifyudnnut] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:56 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:56 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:57 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:08:58 -!- daedric [~daedric@sd-22082.dedibox.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:09:00 dfjklaaf [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 13:09:00 sloyd [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:00 poucet [~chris@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 13:09:01 sepisultrum [tveew6iviu@hcl-club.lu] has joined #scheme 13:09:11 z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has joined #scheme 13:09:13 -!- z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:09:13 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 13:09:18 daedric [~daedric@sd-22082.dedibox.fr] has joined #scheme 13:09:25 rotty [~rotty@78.41.115.190] has joined #scheme 13:09:40 mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 13:09:45 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.50] has joined #scheme 13:10:14 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:10:26 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #scheme 13:10:27 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 13:10:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 13:11:26 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 13:15:25 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-6-126.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:27 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-164.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:15:41 alexshendi [~alexshend@81.253.31.249] has joined #scheme 13:16:03 Sorry, having inet probs 13:16:37 soveran: Can you tell me why the following code fails? . Thanks in advance! 13:20:12 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has left #scheme 13:20:15 yell0 [yello@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 13:24:09 aehrisch [~aehrisch@vhost.knauel.org] has joined #scheme 13:26:38 dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has joined #scheme 13:26:42 alexshendi: I don't think set! is the correct way to set record fields. 13:27:12 alexshendi: You probably have to use the setter function instead, e.g., (set-type-a! self 1) (set-type-b! self 2). 13:27:18 How do I do it, then! 13:27:26 cky: It is very possible though if identifier-syntax is available :) 13:27:32 leppie: :-) 13:27:33 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:27:54 cky: check out my improvements on http://eval.ironscheme.net/ :) 13:28:08 leppie: Anything I should test out in particular? :-P 13:28:26 nope, just looking is fine, and alittle typing 13:28:48 parenthesis matching :) 13:29:47 Nice. *checks* 13:30:23 lucky the editor extension works nice, it was the only one I could find that handled Scheme 13:32:29 cky: also times out on long computations now (dunno if you saw my comment last night) 13:33:07 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-238-194.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 13:33:31 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 13:33:56 only pity for me is the 350ms network latency I got to there and back, should probably fly from the US or Europe 13:34:16 -!- |_[]|_ is now known as xissburg_ 13:35:48 leppie: The CodeMirror stuff isn't working on my Firefox (6.0.2), maybe I'll try another browser sometime. ;-) 13:36:08 ahh :( 13:36:58 arg, same with IE9 :( 13:47:31 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-238-194.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:47:32 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:47:53 Awwww.... 13:50:17 -!- wolf__ [~wolf@180.109.156.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:34 cky: added a 'basic' version now 13:52:55 -!- alexshendi [~alexshend@81.253.31.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:53:15 leppie: :-) 13:53:38 does the basic version work in FF now? 13:54:33 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-pyaqwoggovfitgfv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:38 djcb_ [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-oblqqqdfoznvegyv] has joined #scheme 13:59:01 DrAfk [~duck@user-24-236-92-111.knology.net] has joined #scheme 13:59:56 -!- djcb_ [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-oblqqqdfoznvegyv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:55 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:03:11 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 14:05:06 grrr, so many browser quirks in javascript :( 14:12:59 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:15:16 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 14:17:09 cky: fixed, both for FF and IE 14:18:18 *cky* tests again. :-) 14:18:52 sweet, even works on Android :) 14:19:06 the layout suck, but that's ok 14:27:59 markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #scheme 14:31:39 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-150-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:32:53 -!- DrAfk [~duck@user-24-236-92-111.knology.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:37:23 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:36 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:39:23 leppie: Hey, that's awesome! 14:39:29 leppie: Was the fix for Fx6 and IE9 simple? 14:40:32 it needed a an explicit post url passed to jquery, and i had to remove type="css/text" from the LINK tag 14:41:18 css/text isn't a valid type, but text/css is. :-D 14:41:44 perhaps I had it wrong, perhaps not :) 14:41:48 :-P 14:43:02 Don't worry, I get that sort of crap mixed up all the time too. Like the correct content type for XHTML is application/xhtml+xml, but sometimes I end up writing application/xml+xhtml instead. :-( 14:53:41 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95DBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:58:36 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-82.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 15:00:09 -!- markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:23 -!- stamourv` is now known as stamourv 15:04:15 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:04:44 -!- nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 15:05:35 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 15:06:36 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:08:12 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:09:49 twem2_ [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #scheme 15:10:31 borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:10:48 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] 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15:50:13 -!- whitequa1k is now known as whitequark 15:51:09 EPIC. http://metacircus.com/hacking/2011/09/07/lispy-abuse-of-ruby-syntax.html 15:52:14 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:54:38 heh 15:54:40 Which is nothing new: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/56fce4adeaa79f68?hl=en 15:54:40 :) 16:01:44 ahem... 16:02:13 well, I have nothing to say. 16:09:03 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 16:10:43 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:12:43 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-145-11.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 16:12:55 Let's invent a new communication protocol for pre-teens so that they can re-invent everything anew. 16:16:19 or a semantic blog engine that hints you at prior art while typing 16:16:26 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 16:19:51 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 16:20:48 -!- cb` 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[~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:00:03 -!- xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:42 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:10:02 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:10:20 HG` [~HG@p5DC05FFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:10:24 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-92.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:40 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:20:30 jcowan, when does the fouth wg1 ballot end? 18:22:27 Tomorrow, officially. But experience shows that these things tend to get extended. 18:22:34 People vote at the last minute or later. 18:22:45 ah ok 18:22:54 is this the last ballot? 18:23:18 Definitely not. 18:23:26 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:23:45 rudybot: eval (define (foo) (cons 1)) 18:23:45 leppie: your sandbox is ready 18:23:45 leppie: Done. 18:23:56 There will surely be at least one ballot after the official comment period, plus there are still a few more tickets (and new ones do get added) 18:24:17 they'll keep voting till everyone likes it 18:24:33 rudybot: eval (foo) 18:24:33 leppie: error: cons: expects 2 arguments, given 1: 1 18:25:50 jcowan, ok, i just thought that there should be a final draft this or next month 18:26:01 Hopefully. 18:26:03 i guess that's postponed then 18:26:09 Art Gleckler is on vacation, which slows things down. 18:26:18 oh 18:26:30 And we know the schedule will slip; we are still far more on schedule than any Scheme standardization process has ever been. 18:26:42 hehe 18:26:46 (Actually, that may not be true; I don't know the R6RS schedule) 18:27:02 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-154-214.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has left #scheme 18:27:06 does that mean that the wg2 process will start again this fall? 18:27:55 ysph [~user@131.204.27.195] has joined #scheme 18:28:12 Uncertain. The final decision is with the Steering Committee. 18:29:02 I understand 18:29:10 leppie: My outgoing email is dog-slow right now, so to answer briefly: In R6RS the compiler can't reject anything non-syntactic in advance, because the user is entitled to rely on certain types of errors being thrown at run time. But there are no such guarantees in R6RS. 18:29:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-162.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:30:08 Nevertheless, "(cons (foo))" can be compiled into a call on "error" even in R6RS. 18:30:19 no such guarantees in R7RS you mean? 18:30:41 as long as you an error it can generate anything :) 18:30:47 (jcowan, I would love to see a facility generic functions in WG2, together with WG1 records that would make for a nice polymorphic "object system") 18:30:52 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:57 you can get an error 18:32:33 The lack of guarantee in R7RS is inherited from R5RS. 18:33:34 denisw: Of course the WG can do whatever it wants. But I strongly feel that object systems are a rathole for Scheme: there are a whole bunch of them, people are always inventing new ones, and it's easy to put one together that does what *you* need. 18:33:36 so that means I can reject (a) if a is undefined, at compile time? 18:34:21 jcowan: i don't want an object system, just generic functions 18:34:57 leppie: Yes, if you think that serves your users best. If I were writing a whole-program cross-compiler, I'd definitely do that. 18:35:15 s/cross-// 18:35:22 that is, something like defgeneric/defmethod and nothing more 18:35:22 interesting 18:35:45 it does open up a whole lot of places for optimization 18:36:00 in terms of .NET 18:37:05 denisw: You might find http://paste.lisp.org/display/96220/ interesting. 18:38:37 snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-92.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 18:38:53 something built-in could probably be much faster 18:40:26 e.g. generic functions with a single type predicate could use fast single dispatch on the jvm or clr 18:41:14 WG2 is about interfaces, not implementations 18:42:10 i just meant that as an argument for pulling such an interface into WG2 vs letting users rely on portable in-scheme implementations 18:43:00 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:43:33 Ah. 18:43:39 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:44:19 But note that you have already gone past generic functions, in that case; you have presupposed types -- in fact, classes. 18:45:11 schmir [~schmir@p548D4D73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:45:13 pgf presupposes only predicates, which Scheme already has. 18:46:19 well, a notion of types would be practical, but this doesn't need to include classes 18:48:02 ... or does it? 18:48:15 *denisw* is confused 18:49:03 wipt [cc4d29c0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.77.41.192] has joined #scheme 18:50:49 Hey there, I'm having an issue with a very simple program I'm writing for class. (eq? 'cat (car l) #t) -> this evaluates to true regardless of what the value of the string compared to 'cat is 18:51:26 You are passing three arguments to eq?, so whatever you get is a matter of sheer chance. 18:51:48 jcowan: no, I just pasted the relevant line 18:52:10 This line is non-sensical. 18:52:29 In addition, symbols (like 'cat) are not strings. 18:52:42 You're lucky no dragon came done from the Moon to burn you up with their breath. 18:52:49 http://pastebin.com/u31zHqP7 18:53:06 eq? is true. 18:53:24 jcowan: say there was a procedure "type" which expects a value and returns an opaque object representing its type 18:53:25 Therefore 'cat and (car l) are evaluated, their results ignored, and #t returned. 18:54:05 PythonSnake [~pythonsna@unaffiliated/pythonsnake] has joined #scheme 18:54:07 pjb: should I be defining the string before then? 18:54:09 jcowan: this would allow type-based dispatch on top of a predicate-based generic function system, which an implementation could special-case and optimize 18:54:19 wipt: you should check your syntax and your parentheses. 18:54:29 -!- PythonSnake [~pythonsna@unaffiliated/pythonsnake] has left #scheme 18:55:11 denisw: I think you also need a notion of subtyping so that you know which cases to test first. In WG1 language, there are no subtypes (except in the numeric tower) 18:55:57 jcowan: what about clojure-style ad hoc subtyping 18:56:13 You mean protocols? 18:56:39 jcowan: I mean a procedure (derive ) which defines a subtyping relation 18:57:13 http://clojure.org/multimethods 18:57:50 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 18:59:16 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:59:53 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:03:08 Multimethods are not really recommended because they are slow. (I just saw a talk on this at LispNYC.) 19:03:30 Protocols, which are like Java interfaces but can cache post hoc methods, are the new new thing. 19:03:45 pjb: OK, I see where I went wrong with the arguments... 19:04:37 protocols would really give us a full-fledged object system, though 19:05:18 what is more, proper protocol support would require deep integration into scheme 19:06:08 ((eq? 'cat (car l)) #t), but it's going to where it should be recursing, but it just dumps the cdr of the list... 19:06:16 e.g., there would have to be protocols to implement support for basic procedures such as cons to be useful 19:07:29 -!- schmir [~schmir@p548D4D73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:09:29 wipt: it should be (else (member-cat? (cdr l))) 19:11:15 denisw: that did the trick, thanks. 19:11:23 no problem 19:12:50 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:12:55 jcowan: are single-predicate multimethods inherently more expensive than protocols? 19:13:39 In Clojure? I believe so, because they don't use Java dispatch. 19:15:25 note the "inherently". in clojure, one could probably recognize when a multimethod dispatches only on a type use the jvm's dispatch in this case 19:15:28 i guess 19:18:25 -!- wipt [cc4d29c0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.77.41.192] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:18:54 -!- jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:23:44 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-92.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:51 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 19:24:05 snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-92.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:24:25 jcowan, i just mean, that protocols are faster in clojure does only matter if it is so inherently, and not just in the clojure implementation 19:25:08 jcowan, otherwise generic functions are nicer, because they are more general (if you happen to need that generality) and less invasive 19:25:17 anyway, gotta run 19:25:41 Well, it's because they depend on single inheritance, single dispatch, inline caches, etc. etc. 19:25:42 when the wg2 process begins, I'll bring that up again 19:25:48 *jcowan* nods. 19:26:08 You may want to push for single-inheritance record types, or perhaps multiple inheritance, then. 19:26:10 yes, but the subset of multimethods that are single-dispatch could be optimized the same way 19:26:21 that's my point 19:26:23 anyway 19:26:24 see you 19:26:30 -!- denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-102-110-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:29:52 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 19:31:15 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:33:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:39:47 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:21 -!- ysph [~user@131.204.27.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:47:48 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:52:00 soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 19:56:52 -!- erikano_ is now known as erikano 20:00:43 -!- jcowan [~John@p-67-158-178-154.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:13:07 jcowan [~John@p-74-209-22-28.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #scheme 20:17:01 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:17:21 -!- G_ [~G@41.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:17:42 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin_ 20:18:20 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:20:33 ijp [~user@host86-182-154-214.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:20:38 rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:23:15 -!- woonie [~woonie@137.132.29.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:24:33 http://stackoverflow.com/tags/scheme/topusers <--- I see that eli will probably hold the reigning position for a long, long time ;-) 20:25:36 cky: ? 20:26:26 cky: I'm usually amazed at how much time people spend on that thing and get to scores of 50k... 20:26:41 eli: According to that page, you have 731 votes for answers to [scheme] questions, over 176 answers. That way more than double of the 2nd-place person. 20:27:01 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95DBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:27:06 (Next in line is Rainer Joswig, with 294 votes over 48 answers.) 20:27:55 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 20:28:05 Well, FWIW, I don't consider myself motivated enough to put up a fight... Feel free to jump up... 20:28:24 eli: Neither am I, and besides, like I said, nobody is in much of a position to. :-) 20:28:43 eli: Besides which, your answers are always of the highest quality, so don't stop posting answers. :-) 20:29:09 Heh, yeah, I can easily get carried away... 20:29:27 Long may that last. :-) 20:30:41 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:31:21 cky: Aha -- lots of java and c++... 20:31:44 Is that how you get 50k? (=> going for the populars?) 20:32:26 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 20:34:28 eli: Actually, no. :-) I...let's just say I exploited some aspect of the site's social mechanics in its early days. (I'll elaborate in a minute.) 20:34:38 But suffice it to say that that method is no longer available. 20:35:09 Ah... 20:35:11 So, in the early days, there were no firm rules about what posts had to be "community wiki", and in particular, code golf contests were not required to be community wiki, nor were they seen to be too particularly off-topic. 20:35:32 I posted a code golf that generated tons of rep for everybody involved. :-) 20:35:48 How did that work? 20:35:53 In fact, that code golf not only got me tons of rep, it also got me two gold badges. 20:36:10 Well, if your post isn't CW, every upvote is 10 points (or 5 points for the question itself). They add up. 20:36:49 Of course that post is now CW and I get no new rep from it (and I rely on other posts to make me rep), but in the early days, it was very useful. 20:37:10 And plus, on SO, for better or worse, rep is a bit like a gravity well, you tend to attract more rep if you have more to begin with. 20:37:34 "To him that hath shall be given, and from him that hath not, shall be taken even that which he hath." 20:37:52 jcowan: Pretty much. 20:40:50 On a good day, I can make 275 points or thereabouts (200-point rep cap + 5 accepted answers), and there was a stretch of 4 or so days one time when I made 275 points each day. 20:41:07 Sadly, a poster with 1 rep is unlikely to be able to achieve that quite so readily. 20:44:38 (cky: phone call.) 20:45:02 :-) 20:52:03 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:41 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-164.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:09 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-161-69.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:01:49 *jcowan* points to Aral Vorkosigan's distinction between honor and reputation 21:02:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:02:27 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:05:53 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 21:07:19 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-59-79.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 21:11:52 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.50] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 21:14:35 -!- Burlingk [~burlingk@softbank221067045171.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:15:56 cky: I see. That whole community-wiki thing is something that I really have no clue about, other than a very vague "no points, and no right answers". 21:17:44 -!- cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:17:53 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 21:19:30 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:04 eli: CW is a huge mess. :-) 21:21:02 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:21:36 cky: In that case I'll conclude that my vague understanding is correct to be vague... 21:22:02 Yes. 21:28:15 peterhil` [~peterhil@ZYKCDXLVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 21:32:27 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:42 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 21:44:23 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05FFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 21:46:46 -!- xissburg_ [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:43 -!- jcowan [~John@p-74-209-22-28.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:55 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:06:44 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:10:50 jcowan [~John@p-74-209-22-28.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #scheme 22:14:20 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:17:11 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:57 -!- ada2358 is now known as adzuci 22:31:13 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:32:18 -!- adzuci [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 22:32:18 adzuci [~ada2358@unaffiliated/ada2358] has joined #scheme 22:34:44 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-162.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:39:51 -!- tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:41 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:45:34 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-92.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:09 snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-92.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 22:50:34 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:20 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:58:50 Hmm; by the metric, Scheme and Visual Basic are neck-and-neck: . 22:58:50 http://tinyurl.com/43z7u85 23:01:29 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-164.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:02:43 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@ZYKCDXLVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:06:18 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:07:50 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 23:13:14 wingo [~wingo@76.14.88.215] has joined #scheme 23:17:35 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:19:17 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-216-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:14 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-150-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:29:17 -!- gisli [~Gisli@89-160-146-228.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Changing host] 23:29:17 gisli [~Gisli@unaffiliated/gisli] has joined #scheme 23:32:12 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-164.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:33 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-164.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:38:37 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-164.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:44 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-164.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:41:58 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-142-4.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:42:30 -!- wingo [~wingo@76.14.88.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:43:24 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-59-79.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:49:48 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-193-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 23:52:46 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-154-214.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:57:04 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 23:57:21 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-164.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]