00:03:44 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:06:04 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 00:06:22 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:55 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 00:09:33 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:11:32 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-dev] 00:16:13 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-94-105.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:16:13 -!- sepisult1um [yneg4yod00@hcl-club.lu] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:16:13 -!- sjamaan [~sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:03 sepisultrum [z1b5s813bg@hcl-club.lu] has joined #scheme 00:20:16 sjamaan [~sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 00:20:16 -!- sjamaan [~sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has quit [Changing host] 00:20:16 sjamaan [~sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has joined #scheme 00:21:10 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-94-105.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 00:27:48 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-188-149.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 00:38:25 If you're writing a function to translate between two maps, say, `a->c' and `b->c'; is it reasonable to employ `-->' instead of `->' on analogy with en-dash instead of hyphens in nested compound hyphens (see CMoS s. 6.80): i.e. `a->c-->b->c'? 00:39:08 Just use an en-dash? 00:39:14 Hmm; maybe this is a Riastradhism. Better ask when he's not 404ing. 00:39:21 Jafet: That's cool; damn, didn't think of that. 00:39:46 Oh, people will have a hell of a time typing it in, though, won't they? 00:40:06 Well, I don't... 00:40:08 It's almost like that phishing Scheme where people substitute subtly different Cyrillic characters in URLs. 00:40:27 Can you distinguish an en-dash in code among a sea of hyphens? 00:40:38 I think you may have something, though. 00:40:38 It might get confusing for those who use monospace fonts, I guess 00:40:47 You don't monospace? 00:41:33 I don't remember the last time I had to line up anything other than indents and numerals (which are equally-spaced in most fonts) 00:44:10 Using variable names in variable names seems fishy anyway 00:46:23 Wow, respect; maybe I'll have to try variable width again. Lining up all those C-structs back in the day was futile in variable width. 00:46:45 `a', `b' and `c' in the above example are types; not variables. 00:46:52 Yeah, type variables 00:47:02 You're right, though, it's an adhoc function (strictly for debugging). 01:03:28 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:03:36 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 01:06:15 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 01:08:23 -!- thirdender [~thirdende@75.97.144.217.res-cmts.sewb.ptd.net] has left #scheme 01:13:18 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:14:11 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:14:11 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:14:21 hoi 01:14:28 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:18:40 Ahoy-hoy, jcowan! 01:20:50 *jcowan* chuckles. 01:22:04 Pray tell, good sir, what so tickles your funny bone this fine evening?? 01:22:08 -1s/.$// 01:22:41 The Alexander Graham Bell reference. 01:24:09 Ah! 01:27:41 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-188-149.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:39 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:37:31 dfjkldfajkl [~paulh@145.120.22.54] has joined #scheme 01:45:49 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-79-74.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 01:46:52 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:57:38 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1987] 02:02:04 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-12.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:02:19 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-12.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:02:25 -!- jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:03:36 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 02:04:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:05:00 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:06:49 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-16-78.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:18:11 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-83-177.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:18:18 Aoli, aoli, Zimbabwe Broadbent! 02:19:15 Eh? 02:20:57 *gnomon* non-verbally expresses puzzlement 02:21:54 "Aoli, aoli, Zimbabwe Broadbent!" is a non-verbal expression of puzzlement? I don't follow this. 02:22:23 Non-sensical first, non-verbal thereafter. 02:24:54 Ah. 02:24:55 *jcowan* nods. 02:25:25 Oh, jcowan, that reminds me of something I meant to ask you. 02:25:54 It's not pertinent to Scheme, but it is to some small subset of your expertise, and also to my employer. 02:26:20 Carry on. 02:27:12 Have you any particular recommendations for techniques of guessing character sets given quite small input records - say, 200-400 bytes apiece, with the overwhelming majority of characters appearing in the ASCII range? 02:30:42 I assume that by characters you mean bytes? 02:31:16 I would take this approach: see if it is well-formed UTF-8, and if not, assume it is 8859-1. 02:31:47 All of the input appears in character encodings where a character equals a byte. 02:31:58 The goal is to get it into UTF-8 with a minimum of mangling. 02:32:52 Assuming it's all windows-1252 works for the majority of the non-ASCII input, but not quite all, and I'm seeking out methods of improving the success rate. 02:33:05 Take a bunch of corpora in various languages, represent them in UTF-8 and in whatever other encodings they fit into, draw a histogram of the octet frequencies, and use k-nearest neighbours. 02:33:22 (it's not my responsibility to do so, I might add; it's just that I know you have considerable expertise in the area, so I figured I would seek your advice) 02:33:55 Oh, if they're all 8-bit encodings, then don't bother computing the histograms for UTF-8. 02:34:26 Riastradh, the inport corpus is currently too small for that technique to work, I'm afraid. We're actually trying to figure out where the non-ASCII input came from: unfortunately it passes through an opaque vendor system, and they will not reveal to us their Seekrit Saws. 02:34:38 -1s/inport/input/ 02:34:40 What a curious typo. 02:34:54 No, I'm not talking about taking your particular input. I'm talking about taking a bunch of Russian text, a bunch of French text, &c., and training knn on that. 02:35:11 Well, by "we're trying to figure out", I should rather say "I'm trying to figure out". Nobody else really cares. 02:35:19 Oh, I see. 02:35:29 (You could use fancier algorithms too, but knn works best stupidly often.) 02:35:38 (And it's stupidly easy to implement.) 02:36:12 gnomon: How do you know it does not work on Win1252? 02:36:42 (Riastradh, that bodes well for the eventuality of explaining the technique to the people who _are_ actually responsible for this issue) 02:37:03 jcowan, because there are a very few characters in the input which are not part of the valid Windows-1252 range. 02:37:10 Ah. 02:37:17 as 0x81, e.g.? 02:37:30 Just so. 02:38:05 Mind you, ISO-8859-1 also leaves that point undefined. 02:42:27 gnomon, basically, you're trying to cryptanalyze a simple substitution cipher, but you don't know what language it's written in, although you do have the letter frequencies for each language... 02:43:43 I would be far from sure that the input was in fact in any such cipher; it's just as likely to be textual corruption. 02:45:01 I suppose that's quite possible too, jcowan, and a possibility I had not initially considered. 02:45:14 Riastradh, I see your point. 02:45:20 *gnomon* sighs 02:45:25 Nothing is ever easy, is it? 02:45:56 Here's a cute fact. The KOI8-R encoding puts the Cyrillic facts in a totally different order from the usual one that all Russians &c. learn as infants. 02:46:20 Why? It's ordered so that if you strip off the eighth bit, the Latin letter you get is the closest transliteration of the Cyrillic letter. 02:46:31 Indeed. 02:46:52 Cyrillic facts? 02:46:54 Cyrillic letters. 02:46:55 Yikes. 02:47:07 I was about to look up "facts". 02:47:23 gnomon: Few if any 8-bit character sets assign 0x81 to anything at all. 02:47:37 That's an intriguing point right there. 02:47:56 Why did you pick that particular character as your example? Any particular reason? Or was it just the first one that came to mind? 02:48:14 Riastradh, that is a particularly neat feature of KOI8-R! 02:48:58 Riastradh, that reminds me of a machine language that was designed so that the ASCII representation of its instruction stream would look like a series of mnemonics - I forget which architecture that was. 02:49:38 That reminds me of the cute hack of the US-ASCII subset of x86 machine code as a cloak for malware. 02:50:01 Was that the Flash hack? 02:50:01 Well, the printable US-ASCII subset. 02:50:31 It's probably the EICAR test file. 02:50:34 http://blog.cdleary.com/2011/08/understanding-jit-spray/ ? 02:50:39 I don't know; I read a paper about a couple years ago, and perhaps about tools to aid writing it. 02:50:41 `about it, about a couple years ago' 02:50:50 I'm not having mucl huck today. 02:50:55 The first that is unassigned in Win1252. It is, however, assigned in Win1251 (Cyrillic), Win1253 (Greek), and Win1256 (Arabic) to unusual characters. 02:50:56 Much luck! Much luck! 02:51:02 "mucl huck" indeed. 02:51:25 jcowan, hmm. 02:52:04 gnomon, how's your RSS holding up, by the way? 02:52:11 jcowan, the records usually include address information; I toyed with the idea of augmenting the guesses with that extra information, but it turns out that guessing character sets based on addresses is a far thornier problem! 02:52:35 Riastradh, you haven't yet tenderized it into complete ineffectiveness, but I'm sure that's just a matter of time! 02:52:38 Haha. Have you seen the hand-misencoded-addressed letter? 02:52:48 I have not! 02:53:25 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7woCaXfP5nU/RqExOf6FfoI/AAAAAAAAACw/i_ee_2-zI3A/s400/name.jpg 02:53:25 http://tinyurl.com/3qnkb3t 02:53:33 Someone misinterpreted probably KOI8-R as ISO-8859-1, and then transcribed it by hand on an envelope to be delivered. There's a photograph of it floating about the intertubes. I don't know whether it was ever successfully delivered, but I doubt it. 02:54:11 jcowan, oh, that pales in comparison to the one I saw. 02:54:42 Yes, I've seen the one you mention as well. 02:54:52 I don't remember where I found it, though. 02:54:59 Riastradh, that warms the cockles of my blackened little ichor-pump! 02:55:16 The guy's name is Slavomír éplö. 02:55:54 That is fabulous. 02:56:20 serban [~siege@unaffiliated/serban] has joined #scheme 02:56:42 -!- serban is now known as siege 02:56:42 -!- siege is now known as serban 02:56:51 -!- serban is now known as siege 02:56:51 -!- siege is now known as serban 02:56:53 jcowan: If you're not disputing a point, you can't assume the contrary in arguments. 02:57:06 *jcowan* snorts. 02:57:25 I don't dispute your point, I simply snort at it and assume the contrary. 02:57:33 And the same with your meta-point. 02:57:35 hi, q: how can i detect which type of a recursivity a function has? 02:57:44 Perhaps Riastradh meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Letter_to_Russia_with_krokozyabry.jpg 02:57:50 jcowan: Why are you being so hostile? o_O 02:58:07 I don't mean to come across as hostile: my apologies. 02:58:12 This is a very valid and important issue that we need to resolve - you can't just ignore me. 02:58:12 It's been a very long day. 02:58:26 *gnomon* pats jcowan on the back 02:58:37 Methinks a round of port for all would not go amiss. 02:59:17 If we conflate optionality with module factoring, then it becomes impossible to choose a reasonable factoring based on any other criteria than optionality. 02:59:31 Yes, that's the one, Jafet. 02:59:51 "The address was deciphered by the postal employees and delivered successfully." 03:01:00 In that case, gnomon, I think it is your duty as a member of a society with a postal service to endeavour to detect the encoding error. 03:01:19 Amazing, though not as amazing as what the folks in Ireland do with undeliverable letters. They have experts who know the name and location of every one of the 40,000 or so townlands in the whole island, and have a pretty good idea of what families live in them, too. 03:02:27 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:42 foof: I simply do not understand your criteria. You say the numeric tower is independently called optional, and that's true. But where is eval called optional in R7RS? It was called optional in R5RS, and that's why I put it in a module. 03:03:57 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-83-177.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:04:08 What's the issue? Do I want to get involved, or do I want to stay far away from this? 03:04:17 jcowan, that is another level of brilliance. 03:04:22 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 03:04:38 jcowan, I wonder if our own postal service might employ Facebook or Twitter stalkers to go to similar lengths? 03:05:05 Riastradh: The issue is what parts of R7RS should go in a module other than the base module. 03:05:54 jcowan: Ah, for `eval' I forgot we removed the "optional" distinction. We'd need to put that back in. 03:06:32 OK, I don't think I want to get involved. That sounds a lot more political than technical. 03:06:57 Assuming we want to be strict about this. I'm happy leaving modules optional in general so long as members are willing to discuss module factoring independently from that. 03:08:17 We should be allowed to use deprecation, size, complexity, and leaving room for alternatives, among other reasons, for factoring modules out of the core. 03:08:27 That's okay with me too. 03:08:40 But optionality needs to be on a par with those. 03:08:48 No! 03:09:27 I don't understand the strength of your attitude on this point. 03:09:47 Once optionality comes into the discussion you just have a big glob of things that _must_ be in the core, regardless of _any_ of those other arguments. 03:09:54 That does not lead to an optimal factoring. 03:10:30 (I don't think there is any optimal factoring, merely a good-enough one.) 03:10:56 Sure, but we should try to provide the best factoring we can. 03:11:19 You've already agreed that the numeric modules are justified because the numeric tower is optional, have you not? 03:11:31 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:12:27 They are justified because they don't make sense if the underlying numeric types are not supported. 03:12:44 `case-lambda', for instance, would always make sense. 03:13:59 So it does. So why put it in a module, then? It is neither deprecated, large, nor complex. As for leaving room for alternatives, I don't understand that point: there is always room for alternatives. 03:15:14 It is controversial, there are many alternatives, and the accumulated size of many small features does add it. 03:15:17 add up 03:15:58 There are not likely to be alternatives to `+'. There already exist many alternatives to `case-lambda'. 03:16:28 So there are, but nobody proposed any. 03:16:35 I beg to differ. I work in lots of abelian groups, not all of which are Z, Q, R, or C. 03:16:36 And while passing 5-4 is not ideal, it did pass. 03:16:52 I like to work with ideal stoo. 03:16:56 Argh! 03:17:04 Ideal stew, I suppose you mean. 03:17:05 (Hmm...commutative algebra: ideal stoo.) 03:17:19 mucl huck! 03:17:58 In Pure the floatp, rationalp, complexp, etc. functions refer to storage types. I tried to get the Scheme-style functions called isInZ, isInQ, isInR, and isInC, but it didn't fly. 03:18:10 Riastradh: If there were general alternatives to `+' that were likely to gain widespread support and use, I'd agree that the arithmetic operators should be factored to a module. 03:18:29 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:31 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:18:40 In fact, I'd be fairly open to that factoring, so `+' was a bad example. 03:19:31 And I thought I was a radical factor-er. 03:19:42 I also think `syntax-rules' should be in a module, because the core hygienic system should be low-level, and `syntax-rules' is just one of many possible convenience forms. 03:20:33 Unfortunately, there is less than no general agreement about which low-level system it should be. 03:20:42 And there is very general agreement on syntax-rules. 03:20:47 In any case, that's a dead horse. 03:20:54 I don't care what factoring scheme you choose (the gnfs and qs are pretty good...) as long as it's versioned so that when looking at code I can see, `Aha! I know exactly what report this corresponds with.', and future versions won't break it. 03:21:09 Oh, I didn't mean the low-level system should be in the core. 03:21:49 Or rather, exposed in the core. 03:24:03 Riastradh: Since there is too little experience with versioned modules, and many people were opposed to the versioning in R6RS libraries, we will not be using versions. 03:24:40 It will be up to the _next_ standard to introduce versions, if it breaks compatibility with existing modules. 03:24:42 However, one option is to version the standard modules at the big-endian end. 03:25:09 I'm not talking about a formal versioning system. 03:25:18 (scheme2011 base) rather than (scheme base) 03:25:32 I'm talking about calling the module `r7rs' or something. 03:25:35 Not `scheme' or something as generic as that. 03:25:57 Right. 03:26:53 Riastradh: That's still up for debate. But even if we chose `scheme', when and if a later report changed the semantics of those modules, it could change the name. 03:27:20 Don't call it `scheme'. Scheme48 made that mistake ages ago and Jonathan still regrets it. 03:27:31 Why? 03:28:26 `It could change the name', but hey, who wants to give up such an awesome name? 03:29:07 If you don't set precedent now for naming things with sensible versions, nobody ever will. 03:29:57 That makes sense for a standard, why did it matter for Scheme48? 03:30:24 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:31:09 It matters for any kind of formal language/interface that admits multiple implementations and may be updated later. 03:31:35 Note that in Scheme48 before 1998, `scheme' meant `the R4RS', and in Scheme48 from 1998 on, `scheme' has meant `the R5RS'. 03:31:37 Did it have such a strong backwards-compatibility commitment that it was not possible to change anything in the language? 03:32:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:32:58 It's not just a matter of backward compatibility. It's also a matter of noticing when stuff is *not* compatible and failing early. 03:34:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 03:37:39 *jcowan* agrees. 03:38:41 The main reason I don't like the name R7RS for the small language is that it suggests it is the successor to R6RS, which it is not. 03:38:48 Also I think the joke is stale. 03:39:46 As a joke, maybe, as a naming convention it's fine, and confusing to suddenly switch. 03:40:42 And there will always be new Schemers, for whom the joke is new. 03:41:07 Just because you're stale... 03:41:08 *foof* ducks 03:42:42 *gnomon* gooses, as would seem to be the natural course of action 03:43:19 No, gnomon, it's foof who has to goose you. `Goose' is not an ergative verb. 03:43:46 jcowan, not to diverge too far from the main conversational point, have you a suggestion to replace the RnRS naming convention? 03:43:55 Scheme 2011. 03:44:04 Too large to be a version, can't be mistaken for an implementation. 03:44:12 (assuming we finish this year) 03:44:13 Fair point! 03:44:15 *foof* crosses his fingers 03:44:20 Fair points both, in fact. 03:44:20 (Yes, or 2012 if need be.) 03:44:31 Also aligns with the version numbering of most programming language standards. 03:44:36 Just call it `Scheme0x' and inherit all the bad jokes about `C++0x'. 03:44:48 Scheme1x, surely. 03:44:59 I'd prefer we distance ourselves from "most other programming languages." 03:45:18 Bickering aside, I happen to like Scheme. 03:45:40 Including it's culture and in-jokes. 03:46:41 *gnomon* heaves foof's extra apostrophe out of the sentence and runs away with it 03:46:47 mine mine mine mine mine 03:46:49 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-79-74.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:47:14 jcowan_ [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:47:31 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:47:35 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 03:47:55 In fact I like Scheme too, or I'd hardly be bothering to serve on the WGs. 03:48:06 jcowan, was that "scheme1x" crack a nod at Forth? 03:48:12 No. 03:48:16 Aww. 03:48:32 Just a pious hope that the current version will be finished by 2019. 03:48:57 In any case, I don't understand how that relates to Forth. 03:49:38 jcowan, http://www.ultratechnology.com/1xforth.htm 03:50:24 (please don't read that whole page. It suffers from Jeff Foxitis) 03:50:27 Ah, thanks. 03:53:05 Blargh! I don't know if it's cats that attract open drawers or vice versa, but there is a distinct and vexatious correlation between the two. Now all my best tentacle sheaths are covered in cat hair. Bother. 04:00:01 jcowan: I find your insouciance disturbing: the development of R6RS -> R7RS might not be linear; but people are biased, I think, towards linear narrative. 04:00:14 For that reason alone, why not force a linear narrative where there isn't one? 04:00:50 You're the gatekeepers of culture, in that sense; and get to disseminate at will. 04:00:58 Because it's false to the facts, the same reason that evolutionary biologists struggle against linear narrative. "Four billion years ago the Age of Bacteria began. It has never ended." 04:04:11 Nietzsche was right, though, that there's a certain amount of falsehood required for cultural consistency ("Unwahrheit als Lebensbedingung"): it's a survival mechanism. 04:04:24 I don't know if we have the luxury of unadorned facts. 04:04:48 To do so would be to contravene your mantle as culture-makers. 04:05:32 die Überschemme 04:05:44 Heh. 04:06:32 jcowan: Whether you like it or not, you're a priest of the Schemehood; you have to protect certain sacred untruths. 04:06:50 The foremost of which is the linear development of RnRS, I think. 04:08:41 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:09:33 *jcowan* shrugs. 04:09:41 R7RS-small is a retrenchment. 04:12:19 If we can't survive that truth, we can't survive period. 04:12:58 gnomon: Well, I got sucked into reading the whole page. I look forward to his 1000-word web browser. 04:13:10 s/1000/100 04:17:47 Your immediate counter-argument was the same as mine. 04:18:05 jcowan: As a counter-example, let me cite an arbitrary major religion; in good sadness, though, pious untruth is probably only one survival mechanism. Maybe unadorned truth is another: that's an interesting wager, at least. 04:19:15 Scheme was started, after all, by a couple of hackers who told the truth about procedure calls. Nobody listened, but that wasn't their fault. 04:20:56 Yeah, Ockham smiles on that kind of thing; nevertheless, I still persist in my belief that some untruth is necessary for social cohesion. Just a little. But maybe that's irrational bias. 04:22:26 I'm sure there are sufficient untruths in the R7RS draft without adding any further. 04:22:51 "Mistakes in this book are the responsibility of the author." "Then why doesn't the author just fix them?" 04:24:24 rofl 04:29:28 Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 04:30:31 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:31:08 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-204-171.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 04:33:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.204.209] has joined #scheme 04:35:22 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:46:56 nataraj [~user@124.124.203.9] has joined #scheme 04:57:19 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 04:58:41 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:01:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-77.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:04:52 -!- dfjkldfajkl [~paulh@145.120.22.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:18:30 -!- woonie 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quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:47:35 warmwaffles [kvirc@ant22.cs.utsa.edu] has joined #scheme 14:48:19 can someone point me in the direction on how to implement an n-argument function 14:48:51 (define f (lambda arguments (do-something (length arguments) arguments))) 14:49:37 Also: (define f (lambda (mandatory-1 mandatory-n . optionals) (do-something mandatory-1 optionals))) 14:50:24 I wanted to implement something like an (+ 1 2 3 4 5 (some-funct 3 4)) 14:50:42 where I can just keep appending shit in the args 14:51:06 (apply + 1 2 3 4 5 (add-some-shot-in-the-args)) 14:51:14 s/shot/shit/ 14:51:33 pjb: last arg must be a list 14:51:54 Yes, assume warmwaffles keeps his shit in lists. 14:52:00 lol 14:52:10 I'm lazy 14:52:21 thanks pjb 14:52:39 -!- warmwaffles [kvirc@ant22.cs.utsa.edu] has quit [Quit: aaaaaaaaaa] 14:55:11 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:56:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-89.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:57:30 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-89.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:07:50 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 15:10:34 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:10:59 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:12:24 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:29 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:23:01 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:25:34 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.198.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:26:03 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.149.115] has joined #scheme 15:29:06 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:56 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:31:46 Genieliu [~chatzilla@2001:da8:8000:f018:74e3:8d9e:e814:913f] has joined #scheme 15:32:15 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:43:38 -!- Genieliu [~chatzilla@2001:da8:8000:f018:74e3:8d9e:e814:913f] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.1/20110830092941]] 15:47:23 -!- symbaz [~user@S0106c8bcc89574c2.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:49:06 http://www.intellasys.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=60&Itemid=75 15:49:07 http://tinyurl.com/4bzdcf 15:49:13 a recent and very powerful forth machine 15:49:26 are there any lisp chips anywhere? 15:50:33 whitequark: You should grab an FPGA and make your own. ;-) 15:52:48 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-89.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:52:54 cky: of course I could. but I wonder if any of the lisp machines have evolved into something practically usable (i.e. not only for research purposes) 15:52:54 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-89.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:53:41 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:54:13 *offby1* giggles 15:55:03 (if we'd exclude GPL...) 15:56:11 They did, thirty years ago. Then about fifteen or twenty years ago the whole world imploded. 15:57:29 The AI ice age. :-) 15:57:56 whitequark: If AI Winter is over, I must have missed the news. :-) 16:00:31 cky: it's over, check out http://google.com 16:00:32 :P 16:00:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.149.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:01 :-) 16:01:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-126-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:02:43 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:04:56 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 16:09:29 wingo, nice job getting on slashdot :) 16:10:42 jonrafkind: thanks ;) though if i knew it would be read by slashdot, i would have been a bit more careful ;) 16:10:59 replies are pretty typical.. parens sucks! emacs sucks! 16:11:04 hehe 16:12:59 wingo: there is also the possibility that if you'd been more careful you wouldn't have got on slashdot :) 16:13:53 ijp: haha, fair enough ;) 16:17:00 gimp supports both python and guile right? 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20:34:56 whitequark: Haven't hacked on it yet. 20:35:15 Are you blocking on it? 20:37:31 stamourv: not quite, the primitive preprocessor is not finished yet 20:37:48 I was just curious if there's some code I may test it with 20:38:13 Not yet. 20:38:46 I may have some time to hack on it over the weeked. Is there anything you'd want me to focus on? 20:40:12 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 20:41:50 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:00 well, it'd be good already to get a sensible primitive system, so I'll try to make a simple ARM stdlib/glue and see how big/fast it will be 20:49:26 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC053C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 20:49:28 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:49:58 everything over that are actually optimizations, either for speed or convenience 20:50:50 picobit is already proven to work on my ARM, now I probably should remember what I wished to do with it in first place... 20:53:18 DrTeggy [~drteggy@195.72.221.178] has joined #scheme 20:54:36 whitequark: What do you need in the compiler for the primitive system? 20:55:09 alexshendi [~alexshend@ip-109-40-94-155.web.vodafone.de] has joined #scheme 21:00:55 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:04:14 stamourv: the primitive definition s-exp parser 21:06:17 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 21:10:15 Right. 21:10:35 Do you have a format for the s-exps in mind? 21:11:20 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:38 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #scheme 21:22:38 -!- DrTeggy [~drteggy@195.72.221.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:47 DrTeggy [~drteggy@195.72.221.178] has joined #scheme 21:24:07 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-109-221.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24:43 ASau [~user@93-80-104-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 21:26:37 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-116-94.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:27:42 y3llow_ [~y3llow@111-240-174-123.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:27:48 pothos_ [~pothos@111-240-174-123.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:03 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 21:29:11 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-173-247.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:22 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-173-247.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:29:33 -!- y3llow_ is now known as y3llow 21:30:16 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 21:50:19 -!- DrTeggy [~drteggy@195.72.221.178] has quit [Quit: Going, going, gone...] 22:00:31 -!- alexshendi [~alexshend@ip-109-40-94-155.web.vodafone.de] has left #scheme 22:05:35 stamourv: yeah. (primitive-name opcode-id argument-count options) 22:10:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:10:52 by the "options", I mean the thing you've added to current compiler as "#:unspecified-result" 22:10:57 (is that a symbol?) 22:11:15 I think that we may make it a list of options, as there may be more than one 22:11:42 yay picobit hackers :) yall are great. 22:11:52 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:53 i.e. something with the constant folding. Even if you'll do the folding entirely in compiler, there still may be other valid cases to make it a list 22:12:01 wingo: have you tried picobit out? 22:12:18 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 22:12:55 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 22:15:00 whitequark: no, i don't work much with that kind of system... 22:15:07 i just like scheme everywhere :) 22:18:10 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:12 a scheme repl would've been nice for the system i was working on at my last job 22:22:33 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:52 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 22:23:25 unfortunately that system had a huge amount of technical debt that would've had to have been confronted first 22:24:00 turbofail, that looks like a TDWTF history 22:24:38 my co-workers considered submitting some of our codebase to TDWTF 22:27:43 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 22:28:27 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:29:05 arcfide [1000@140-182-208-63.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 22:29:43 that job was a pretty good lesson in how smart people can produce terrible terrible code 22:30:53 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 22:35:41 -!- rpg [~rpg@173-8-98-161-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:00 -!- xissburg_ [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:19 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-94-105.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:51:11 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-176-189.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 22:51:49 -!- pyro- [~pyro@unaffiliated/purplepanda] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:52:38 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:59:07 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-2-150-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:41 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-83-177.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:18 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.72] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 23:09:11 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:09:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:13:50 mg4001 [~mg4001@operations.demarcation.gravityus.com] has joined #scheme 23:21:39 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.72] has joined #scheme 23:22:04 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-16-78.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:31 ijp [~user@host86-182-16-78.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:31:07 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:33:49 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.171.167] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:35:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-116-94.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:23 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.234.179] has joined #scheme 23:47:40 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 23:52:08 darkf [~darkf_dix@unaffiliated/darkf] has joined #scheme 23:55:49 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-66-196.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:59:02 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:23 -!- arcfide [1000@140-182-208-63.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:59:27 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 23:59:58 rbuck [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme