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I need new arguments to reopen a WG decision. 03:23:34 zanes [~zane@108-90-245-81.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:24:14 In particular, R6RS implementations often return zero values, as R6RS licenses when "undefined values" are to be returned. 03:24:41 Unfortunately, that's incompatible with the R5RS (and draft) approach of returning "an undefined value", and changing it will break an R5RS guarantee. 03:24:50 Not a very useful one IMHO, but still a guarantee. 03:27:39 In CL, when a form returns zero value where a value is needed, NIL is received. Just saying... 03:31:19 srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 03:31:19 -!- srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:31:19 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 03:34:43 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:44:59 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 03:52:33 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:55:00 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: *sneeze*] 04:01:27 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:28 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:09:43 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:22 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 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quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:18:30 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 12:35:14 -!- zanes [~zane@108-90-245-81.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:37:51 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-41-68.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:46:28 oldpier [~oldpier@175.156.205.15] has joined #scheme 12:59:12 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:14:23 what is the substitution (x y)[y -> x] supposed to do? should it yield (x x) or introduce a new symbol and yield (z x)? 13:20:30 -!- oldpier [~oldpier@175.156.205.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:25:38 oldpier [~oldpier@175.156.205.15] has joined #scheme 13:26:51 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:37:26 tupi [~david@189.60.160.15] has joined #scheme 13:47:03 arcfide [~arcfide@pool-96-231-37-52.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:47:42 wuj 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14:59:50 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 15:07:51 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:08:20 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:14:15 -!- confab [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:15:13 In this snippet from SCIP a square-root approximation function is defined. Do the local functions become redefined with every recursive call? 15:15:17 http://pastebin.com/cBH5rNqL 15:15:54 And isn't that therefore not ideal? 15:23:43 confab [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:32:14 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-176.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:34:37 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-176.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:41:42 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:59:44 they do not get redefined each time 16:00:07 askhader: You must distinguish the code of the procedure (let's call it function), from the environment of the procedure. When you sum the code and the data (the function and the environment) you get a closure. 16:01:12 askhader: The compiler can compile once for all the code, the function. But indeed, each recursive invocation will generate (at least virtually) a new closure. But here, only the environment changes, and need to be instanciated. 16:08:04 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 16:09:04 askhader: have a look at: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124026 16:09:54 partial-fact returns a list of closure. The code of each closure (but the last) is the same. But the environment of (the values used by) the different closures are different. 16:20:02 fbass [~fbass@75-173-95-248.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:26:22 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:47:48 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f77b97e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:47:57 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f769487.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 16:51:23 malorie: it introduces a new symbol. 16:54:40 pjb: http://i.imgur.com/2A35O.png <- I think so too, but rule d) disagrees, no? 16:56:09 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:00:58 malorie: err, right. It's not the substitution that introduce the new symbol, so (x y)[y -> x] = (x x). It's the beta reduction, which must avoid cloberring a closed variable. 17:02:56 I see. my substitution-implementation almost works and I was hoping it was a problem with ruled d). gotta dig deeper, then :-) 17:06:54 You need to walk the code, to distinguish between free variables and bound variables, for each sub-expression and apply alpha-conversion of bound variables identical to the substitution. 17:09:46 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 17:10:09 well. currently I'm implementing substitution only by the semantics described in this text. I'll take the alpha- beta- eta-conversions into account when substitution is working. or this is a bad idea? 17:10:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 17:11:08 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 17:11:38 you can do that, but they ensure that your local variables are not named like the substitution parameters. 17:13:13 well. those conversions rely on substitution to take care of bound/free/newly-created variables, afaict 17:14:58 No exactly. 17:15:11 The use the substitution operation, but not indiscriminately. 17:17:50 Ah, you may be right, in my implementation, the substitution stops at the internal binding. 17:18:38 That's the rules f. and g. in your picture. 17:20:09 why does it stop? x isn't internally bound by lambda in f. and g. (only in e.) 17:20:34 I test if v = x and in that case, I return the old form without further substituting. 17:20:52 yeah. I do that too 17:21:02 That is, when you have (lambda (x) (x y))[y->x], you must not do the substitution. 17:21:25 (x y)[y->x] = (x y), because there's no binding, both x and y are free variables in (x y). 17:21:38 I thought that (lambda x (x y))[y -> x] --> (lambda z (z x)) 17:21:39 But in (lambda (x) (x y)) x is a bound variable, and y is a free variable. 17:21:56 rule g., that is 17:21:59 That is what alpha conversion does. 17:22:07 the hell 17:22:18 I bet that's what g. does 17:22:48 that's right. I guess my implementation doesn't use the same rules... 17:22:55 heh 17:23:47 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:01 I have only reference to three rules, 1., 2. and 3. in my substitution function. 17:25:17 I see 17:25:20 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #scheme 17:25:52 malorie: so in conclusion, (lambda x (x y))[y -> x] = (lambda z (z x)) and (x y)[y -> x] = (x x), and that's the difference between bound variables and free variables. 17:26:17 agreed 17:28:33 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:30:32 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:41:24 (subst '(lambda x (y)) 'y 'x) --> (lambda |0| (x)) but the example from the text: (subst '(lambda y ((lambda f (f x)) y)) 'x '(f y)) --> (lambda |0| ((lambda |0| (|0| (f y))) |0|)) :\ 17:42:50 should've been (lambda |0| ((lambda |1| (|1| (f y))) |0|)) though 17:43:55 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:12 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:49:48 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 17:53:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-fe1fdd00-156.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:04 peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-fe1fdd00-156.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 18:02:44 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:04:25 -!- fbass [~fbass@75-173-95-248.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:07:50 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:58 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:10:21 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 18:11:22 -!- pjb` is now known as a 18:11:24 -!- a is now known as pjb` 18:11:51 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 18:12:17 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.160.15] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:10 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:16:09 tupi [~david@189.60.160.15] has joined #scheme 18:18:10 -!- xale [~xale@2001:4b98:dc0:51:216:3eff:fef2:58dd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:28:29 dsmith [~dsmith@66.178.229.162] has joined #scheme 18:41:40 the problem seems to be, that the "inner" substitution does _not_ take the bound variables of the outer expression into account. so I'm guessing that the rules I'm following are broken :\ 18:42:50 http://ideone.com/51jSm <- this is what I have so far. any suggestions? :-) 18:43:11 wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:45:06 Well, in a way you need to keep track of the bound variable, but on the other hand, if you have only one substitution, as long as it's not one of a bound variable, it's all you have to know. 18:47:29 well. the text provides an example based on its rules, and it seems to work just fine. but mine doesn't 18:48:37 malorie: your parameter names are not so good. I have a hard time following them, but it seems to be you have a problem with the order of arguments in (subst (subst ...) ...). 18:50:55 hm. rule g. says (lambda z (E[x -> z][v -> E1])) which I've "directly" translated to (list 'lambda z (subst (subst E x z) v E1)) 18:51:29 ok. 18:52:21 and how could I improve my parameter names? 18:53:17 In my code, I used (lambda (new old expression) ...) 18:53:44 I see. I'm following the naming scheme of the text, atm 18:54:09 exp = (lambda x E) and exp[v -> E1], that is 18:54:44 That's ok too. But mathematicians don't have the same style of variable naming than programmers... 18:55:08 well. that's a point, I suppose 19:01:00 In (lambda (a) (x a)) a is bound. But in (x a), a is free. 19:01:11 yes 19:01:30 The problem you have, is that bound variables, are not necessarily used in subexpressions. So there may not appear as free variables of subexpressions. 19:01:54 Therefore you need to pass the "environment", ie. the list of bound variable you've found so far, to the recursive calls of subst. 19:02:24 I see. so the text indeed seems to be wrong? 19:03:11 Not exactly. It's a mathematical formulation. Mathematicians assumes the reader has a brain. We programmers know that computers have no brain, so our formulations need to be more "formal". 19:03:41 what about ((lambda (x) ((lambda (x) x) x)) 1) though? 19:04:28 is the inner lambda's x bound by the outer one's? 19:05:00 No, it's bound by the inner one. You'd expect an environment with a shadowed x. 19:09:17 HG` [~HG@p5DC04C3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:11:42 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-179.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:14:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:17:20 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-176.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:18:19 fbass [~fbass@75-173-95-248.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 19:20:47 Which Scheme implementation was it that had the crocodile appy-appy-joy-joy welcome/quit message? MIT? 19:20:54 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@66.178.229.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:22:02 antoszka: Edwin says `Happy Happy Joy Joy' when you close it, IIRC. 19:22:14 antoszka: http://visual-languages.blogspot.com/2009/07/alligator-eggs-revisited.html 19:23:13 Edwin the MIT-Scheme-based Emacs-like editor, that is. I don't know anything about crocodiles or alligators, though.. 19:24:08 Hm. 19:34:36 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:35:57 MIT Scheme's REPL does that (i.e. says "Happy Happy Joy Joy" too, I believe. 19:38:11 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:44 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:41:19 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:05 hmmm.... it seems that I can eventually use my scheme with shared memory... so I can share variables across processes... :) 19:45:06 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:46:46 peterbb [~peterbb@146.247.161.37] has joined #scheme 19:46:57 fizzie: thx. 19:51:24 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 19:56:24 moo 19:57:31 zanes [~zane@108-90-245-81.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:03:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-179.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:13:58 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 20:18:10 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:27:31 dgs [~dgs@203-97-51-73.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #scheme 20:31:14 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:31:14 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f769487.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:36 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f77b656.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:59 fizzie: Oh, it seems it does if you (exit) but not if you (quit), that's funny. 20:53:39 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 20:56:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-182.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:20 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04C3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:09:27 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:11:45 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 21:14:18 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 21:24:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-144-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:42:46 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:51:54 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #scheme 21:51:57 hussaibi_ [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #scheme 21:58:43 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.57.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12:28 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 22:21:41 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:22:17 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 22:28:28 ignis_ [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:33:55 -!- ignis_ [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:45:40 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 22:49:37 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-176.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:52:55 malorie: If that's Barendregt or similar, look for the "Free Variable Assumption", sometimes also called "Variable Convention". 22:53:40 It's basically a rule that translates to using gensym to ensure freshness. (At least under implementations that use a gensym.) 23:05:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:11:19 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.122] has joined #scheme 23:11:38 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:15:21 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 23:18:03 i found out why geiser hated my autodoc 23:18:08 it was geiser-autodoc--inhibit-autodoc 23:20:43 need lower inhibitions 23:23:03 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:17 lower standards 23:39:05 Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 23:47:47 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:55:15 offby1: vim?