00:02:02 <ski> threading state is just one particular example of a monad
00:02:38 <penryu> heh. I had a hypothesis I was half-heartedly testing there.
00:06:55 <penryu> fair point. it is but one application of monads, but isn't that how they justify a procedure reading from stdin to be functional? all other things being equal, in a purely functional language, each call to an rng should return an identical value.
00:07:27 <penryu> but by threading an ever-mutating state via monad, no two calls to the rng _are_ ever the same, so that rule is never _technically_ broken.
00:07:38 <ski> correct
00:07:49 <ski> and that is what matters
00:07:55 <penryu> the technicality? :)
00:07:58 <ski> yes
00:08:02 <penryu> haha
00:08:48 <ski> you can replace equals for equals, without having to worry about evaluation order, because evaluating an expression can't implicitly modify state or any other side-effects
00:11:29 <ski> what it is about is really separating the mutation (or other effects) aspects of your program from the "pure" parts of the program
00:13:14 <ski> (an "impure" annotation on functions would work more or less as well as having an "IO monad")
00:17:25 <turbofail> hm... how fast is chez scheme?
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00:19:00 <turbofail> the only comparisons i've seen on the interwebs were with petite chez, which is apparently a bytecode vm version
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00:19:40 <ski> afaik, arcfide is the resident Chez user
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01:22:32 <penryu> ski: thanks. I haven't heard an explanation as frank as that before.
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01:24:08 <ski> np
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01:38:56 <jcowan> I'm thinking about the best approach for embedding a Lisp2 into Scheme
01:39:09 <jcowan> I see two basic strategies, symmetrical and asymmetrical.
01:39:22 <jcowan> In the asymmetrical strategy, there is the Scheme value, and then there is a separate function cell.
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01:40:21 <jcowan> In the Lisp2, the symbol value is the Scheme value, and if the function cell holds a function, that's the symbol function.  If it doesn't, and the Scheme value is a function, that's the symbol function.
01:41:01 <jcowan> Setting the symbol value checks to see if the existing Scheme value is a function, and if so and the function cell is empty, then the old value is copied into the function cell.
01:41:33 <jcowan> This seems to be the most fluid, but it might be cleaner to have a separate Scheme value, value cell, and function cell, with both the value cell and the function cell defaulting to the Scheme value if not set.
01:44:17 <jcowan> Which means, however, that if Scheme sets its value, the other Lisp doesn't see the change at all if it already has a value.
01:58:18 <DT``> I've always thought the first, but it may make some errors harder to catch (i.e., (car xs) -> no `car' in the function environment, uses Scheme's `car'. (defun car (x) (x (lambda (x) (lambda (y) x)))) -> that code is now broken(?))
01:59:12 -!- offby1 is now known as sotweedfactor
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02:02:53 <jcowan> Is it broken?  It seems to me that you said you wanted that when you redefined car.
02:03:45 <jcowan> What's weird is the fact that (setq car (make-car)) will break Scheme's car function.
02:04:16 <jcowan> Lisp's car will still work, however, because of the copy-down from the value to the function cell.
02:09:43 <DT``> well, I'm not good at making examples, but I think that looking up the symbol in both environments would create subtle error.
02:10:42 <DT``> people would start relying on it because writing `funcall' every time in higher-order-procedures-heavy code is repetitive and error-prone.
02:11:21 <DT``> (like in (defun map (f xs) (cons (f (car xs)) (map f (cdr xs])
02:11:27 <DT``> (instead of `funcall')
02:11:50 <jcowan> Ah, I see.  You're right.
02:12:12 <DT``> the nightmare begins when you shadow the value slot with a function slot.
02:13:04 <jcowan> Okay, so scrap the dual lookup.  Lisp function calling looks in the function cell, period (unless funcall is used, obviously).
02:13:25 <jcowan> So functions must be explicitly shared between Scheme and Lisp.
02:13:54 <jcowan> Then the (setq car (make-car)) example becomes the problematic one: everything's fine in Lisp, but Scheme has been quietly broken.
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02:14:43 <DT``> also, how would you distinguish a Scheme (value env) vs Lisp (function env) call?
02:15:47 <jcowan> Oh, that would depend on which evaluator was running.  Procedure *objects* (like other objects) are shared, but the code of a procedure is either Scheme or Lisp depending on how it was defined.
02:17:52 <jcowan> So to call a Lisp function foo, Scheme would have to say ((symbol-function 'foo) ...), perhaps with help from a macro.
02:18:05 <jcowan> And Lisp can call Scheme functions by name with funcall.
02:19:01 <DT``> that would work. Also, some kind of module system may help on the Scheme side.
02:19:22 <DT``> some `provide-as-function' that exports normally the binding for Scheme code, and as a function for Lisp-2 code.
02:23:22 <jcowan> I was thinking that (define (...) ...) would just have a private side effect.
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02:24:29 <DT``> what about (define fun #f) (let ((shared-x ...)) ... (set! fun ...))?
02:24:53 <jcowan> Obviously there would have to be an explicit interface.
02:25:10 <jcowan> (define foo (lambda ...)) might or might not set the function cell.
02:27:06 <DT``> `define' could recognize `lambda' (assuming low-level macros and access to `macroexpand')
02:27:11 *jcowan* nods.
02:27:49 <DT``> which is the most obvious think to do anyway, because it's the only way to properly handle the curried syntax for define.
02:29:52 <DT``> s/think/thing/
02:29:55 <jcowan> The more I think about it, the more I think a completely separated solution is the only safe one.  Symbols have a Scheme value, a Lisp value, and a Lisp function value, none of which interfere with one another.
02:30:38 <DT``> how would they interoperate? symbol-value, symbol-function and scheme-symbol-value everywhere?
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03:44:51 <jcowan> DT``: Yes, I suppose so
03:45:08 <jcowan> although Scheme doesn't actually require that you be able to evaluate symbols except with eval.
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15:30:04 <rekahsoft> hi all..i have been using racket since when i first picked up scheme...but racket isn't exactly standard and i was wondering how it compared (runtime wise) against other implementations and even other languages
15:30:20 <rekahsoft> anyways my question is..what is a really nice and fast scheme implementation..
15:30:37 <rekahsoft> i am looking at bigloo abd it seems alright
15:31:39 <rekahsoft> also is there a thread SRFI?
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15:40:23 <eli> rekahsoft: racket is non-standard in that it's extended, and in that sense all implementations are "not exactly standard".  (If you really want a *standard*, then no implementation that I know of beats Racket's R5 and R6 as *exactly* the standard.)
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15:43:51 <rekahsoft> eli: alright i figured..things like gui and threads are not defined in the scheme standard, no?
15:44:06 <eli> No.
15:44:12 <eli> Much less than that.
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15:44:43 <rekahsoft> what all is in the standard? i know one thing i want to do is write a scheme interpretter for kicks..
15:44:56 <eli> If you want "just standard scheme" then use racket's r[56]rs language, and prepare yourself for a world of pain.
15:45:26 <eli> (With r6rs it'll be just pain, with r5rs it'll be hell.)
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15:46:57 <rekahsoft> eli: why? if you don't mind me asking
15:48:05 <eli> Becuase they are tiny languages.
15:48:33 <eli> R5 is even ridiculously tiny, so if you want to stick to the standard you will need to reinvent wheels over and over.
15:49:50 <ijp> rekahsoft: Multithreading is srfis 18 & 21
15:55:16 <ijp> eli: so which circle of hell is r7rs wg1 ?
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15:55:48 <eli> I don't know.
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15:56:59 <rekahsoft> are optional parameters to functions a extention to racket? eg (lambda (x [my-optional-param 'default-val)
15:57:03 <rekahsoft> ])*
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15:58:16 <ijp> you could do them with case-lambda and a syntax-rules macro, but strictly speaking, they are nonstandard
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16:14:50 <cky> rekahsoft: There's SRFI 89.
16:15:03 <cky> rekahsoft: What Racket provides for optional parameters is pretty much in line with what SRFI 89 offers.
16:15:32 <cky> rekahsoft: (I'm in the process of writing an implementation of SRFI 89 for Guile, so I can use it there too.)
16:16:33 <cky> Actually, in case that gets misread, I'm in the process of writing a SRFI 89 "wrapper" for Guile's native optional parameters functionality. ;-)
16:18:49 <tcleval> how chicken implementation compare to other Scheme->C implementations?
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16:23:38 <ecraven> Does any Scheme have non-ffi (i.e. native Scheme) bindings for X11?
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16:26:06 <cky> ecraven: Wow. That seems like a huge timesink. :-)
16:26:20 <cky> ecraven: Basically you'd have to reimplement the X protocol from scratch, at least for the client end.
16:26:30 <pjb> Actually, with the right libraries, it should be 20-50 lines of scheme.
16:26:43 <pjb> xproto is defined by xml files used to generate the documentation.
16:26:52 <cky> pjb: Wow, very nice.
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16:27:36 <pjb> I'm not sure they're used to generate code though, so you might have to edit them. or implement ad-hoc processing.  However, the main part should go seamelessly.
16:27:43 <pjb> s/me/m/
16:27:53 <cky> Sounds like a new project for ecraven. :-)
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16:28:44 <pjb> Further, xwen uses also a direct to X11 server connection, you could choose to use the elisp implemented in scheme to run it, or translate it to scheme.
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16:33:30 <rekahsoft> cky: alrgith good to know
16:34:34 <rekahsoft> another question..with bigloo the floor function evaluates to a double or float or something..anything something non integer..how do i make it back to an itneger?
16:35:41 <pjb> inexact->exact is in r5rs iirc.
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16:43:44 <rekahsoft> pjb: hehe thanks :P exactly what i was looking for..
16:43:59 <rekahsoft> and man do i ever need to read over the R5RS and R6RS standards
16:56:20 <rekahsoft> hmm..does inexact->exact limit the size of an integer?
16:57:23 <cky> rekahsoft: No.
16:57:27 <cky> rekahsoft: Scheme has bignums.
16:58:08 <cky> rudybot: (inexact->exact 1e300)
16:58:09 <rudybot> cky: your sandbox is ready
16:58:09 <rudybot> cky: ; Value: 1000000000000000052504760255204420248704468581108159154915854115511802457988908195786371375080447864043704443832883878176942523235360430575644792184786706982848387200926575803737830233794788090059368953234970799945081119038967640880074652742780142494579258788820056842838115669472196386865459400540160
17:00:14 <cky> rekahsoft: However, most implementations of inexact uses IEEE-754 double-precision, which does have a more limited range.
17:00:25 <ijp> rudybot: (inexact->exact +inf.0)
17:00:25 <rudybot> ijp: your sandbox is ready
17:00:25 <rudybot> ijp: error: inexact->exact: no exact representation for +inf.0
17:00:46 <ijp> good, that could've been ugly ;-)
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17:00:52 <cky> Hehehehehe. ;-)
17:01:19 <rekahsoft> alright well i am just playing with bigloo and used a function that i wrote for racket..did some minor modification and it seems to work..
17:01:33 <rekahsoft> except when given large numbers
17:03:48 <rekahsoft> wierd things are happening like...(expt 10 2) => 100 but (expt 10 1000) => 0 ???
17:04:22 <wingo> it might be that in bigloo you need to explicitly enable bignums
17:04:29 <wingo> or possibly it doesn't support them
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17:05:24 <rekahsoft> alright well i think that will be the end of bigloo lol
17:05:32 <rekahsoft> maybe i will try chicken for a while
17:06:01 <cky> rekahsoft: In Chicken, you have to use the numbers egg to do anything useful with numbers.
17:06:04 <rekahsoft> been playing with kawa too..its nice..i worry about its speed though seeing as it runs on the jvm
17:06:11 <cky> rekahsoft: JVM == fast.
17:06:37 <cky> Well, it depends on whether Kawa compiles to bytecode. If so, it's fast.
17:06:40 <rekahsoft> cky: since when? i started with java years and years ago and it wasn't that spunky lol
17:06:43 <cky> If it just interprets, then not so much.
17:06:45 <cky> rekahsoft: Since Java 6.
17:06:50 <rekahsoft> kawa doesn't seem too bad..
17:07:01 <cky> rekahsoft: Java 6 has seriously amped up in the performance front.
17:07:03 <ijp> y
17:07:09 <rekahsoft> and yeah? good to know..maybe i'll give it another change..
17:07:26 <rekahsoft> what do you think of racket? specifically its extansions to standard scheme
17:07:38 <cky> rekahsoft: You don't have to use the extensions if you don't want to.
17:07:51 <cky> rekahsoft: I usually stick to the standard stuff (meaning R5RS + SRFIs), but that's my preference.
17:08:16 <cky> rekahsoft: Racket is a really good, solid implementation. I have no reservations recommending it for general use.
17:08:37 <cky> rekahsoft: It's one of three Scheme implementations I regularly use (the other two being Guile and Chicken).
17:09:13 <cky> But, if you use Guile, make sure you're using Guile 2.0 or higher. (2.0.2 was just released a day ago.)
17:09:43 <cky> Guile 1.8 (or, heaven forbid, 1.6) is painful to use, if you've gotten used to Guile 2.0.
17:14:36 <rekahsoft> i have used guile..just installed chicken though..what are its main difference/benifits?
17:14:46 <rekahsoft> i know its a scheme->C compiler
17:15:44 <cky> rekahsoft: Chicken compiles to C. Guile compiles to bytecode.
17:16:02 <cky> In theory, that means that Guile (and Racket) can potentially have very, very fast execution, because of JIT compilation.
17:16:15 <cky> I know Racket has a JIT compiler. I'm not sure if Guile does.
17:18:39 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme
17:19:08 <jcowan> honng
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17:38:29 <wingo> heya jcowan
17:41:47 <jcowan> Hey ho.
17:42:09 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@177.19.102.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
17:42:19 <jcowan> So how is the Lisp2-ness of Elisp supported in Guile?
17:42:38 <jcowan> I was speculating about possible ways to do so yesterday.
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17:57:32 <jcowan> wingo: ping
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18:04:43 <wingo> jcowan: pong
18:04:54 <jcowan> see above
18:04:57 <wingo> jcowan: lisp-2, hum
18:05:56 <jcowan> In particular, are the Elisp and Scheme value cells identified?
18:06:17 <jcowan> If so, (setq car (make-car)) would cabbage the Scheme definition of car.
18:07:27 <wingo> no they are not identified.
18:07:45 <wingo> function values are in a function value module. others are in a value module.
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18:08:06 <wingo> there has been talk of being able to extend storage locations to have two values
18:08:23 <wingo> normally they would still have one, but they could be extended to 2.
18:08:37 <wingo> i am not very familiar with that code though.
18:09:03 <wingo> we have had some summer of code work on it, which i have not yet fully understood :)
18:09:33 <wingo> but basically the world of variables bound in elisp is a subset of the world of variables bound in scheme.
18:11:01 <jcowan> Well, just looking at global variables for the moment, if I setq a variable in Elisp, does Scheme see that change in value?
18:12:25 <jcowan> Oh, I think I see what you are saying: there is a separate Scheme module for Elisp variable values, so Scheme can see it if it imports that particular variable, but not otherwise.
18:24:41 tab1ta [~tab1ta@host7-211-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme
18:24:47 <tab1ta> hello
18:25:06 <tab1ta> does anyone use drracket as an IDE for scheme?
18:25:16 <tab1ta> or DrScheme?
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18:26:07 <tab1ta> is it normal, using the gui.ss plugin, that it doesn't take keyboard input?
18:26:23 <tab1ta> any keyboard input...
18:27:27 <tab1ta> ?
18:29:25 <tab1ta> any hint/idea/snarl?
18:31:00 <jcowan> Probably nobody who uses Racket is on right now.
18:31:34 <tab1ta> :/
18:31:35 <bremner> I use racket, but I don't know gui.ss
18:32:26 <bremner> tab1ta: if you paste a small example, I'm willing to run it and report back.
18:33:12 <tab1ta> ok
18:34:29 <tab1ta> http://paste.lisp.org/display/123111
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18:36:21 <bremner> there is no #lang there, so you need to tell me how you have drracket setup
18:36:40 <tab1ta> ok it is intermediate student with lambdaù
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18:36:45 <tab1ta> lambda*
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18:37:07 <tab1ta> and you should add the gui teachpack
18:37:12 <tab1ta> gui.ss
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18:38:20 <bremner> umm, draw-sold-disk is not defined
18:38:37 <tab1ta> o sorry the draw.ss teachpack even
18:39:30 <bremner> I can type in "Nome:"
18:39:49 <tab1ta> you see whem you write something in the text spece and you give a keyboard "return" it doesn't take the input
18:40:14 <tab1ta> it is Name in english
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18:40:21 <bremner> ok, yeah I see that same behaviour here. So what should happen>?
18:41:11 <tab1ta> i was only wandering about it, if soemone knows why this difference, for exmple in C or other languages you don't have problem taking the keyboard input
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18:41:26 <tab1ta> so why this behavior
18:41:43 <tab1ta> scheme is strange, with numeric symbols even
18:42:09 <tab1ta> it erases the first zero, even if you give it in as a symbol,,,
18:43:15 <bremner> tab1ta: I guess check the documentation for the text field. Probably you can give a function to run on a RETURN key.
18:43:18 <tab1ta> shouldn't you know how the package gui.ss was actually build to answer this question?
18:43:25 <tab1ta> ok
18:43:31 <tab1ta> i'll seen
18:43:36 <tab1ta> see*
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18:44:33 <tab1ta> "If the user presses Enter, the type of event passed to the callback is 'text-field-enter, otherwise it is 'text-field..."
18:44:36 <tab1ta> that's it
18:45:40 <bremner> but you don't define a callback for NOME
18:47:03 <tab1ta> nome is static
18:47:26 <tab1ta> it is an other botton which takes the input of the text-field and
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18:49:34 <tab1ta> which draws it into the message below
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18:55:39 <mije> hi
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19:01:28 <wingo> jcowan: yes, you caught my meaning, i think.
19:01:36 *wingo* a bit async it seems
19:02:25 <bremner> tab1ta: yeah, I can't see how to bind a callback to the text field either, sorry.
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19:04:58 <tab1ta> no in the manual there is a syntax but it's not for the make-text constructor,,,
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19:12:07 <bremner> all the docs recommend the "world.ss" teachpack instead. Do you have to use the gui and draw teachpacks?
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19:36:50 <cky> tab1ta: You can have numeric symbols, without losing any leading zeroes.
19:37:07 <cky> rudybot: (define foo '|00000xdeadbeef|)
19:37:08 <rudybot> cky: Done.
19:37:12 <cky> rudybot: foo
19:37:13 <rudybot> cky: ; Value: 00000xdeadbeef
19:37:26 <cky> rudybot: (define foo '|0000012345678|)
19:37:27 <rudybot> cky: Done.
19:37:29 <cky> rudybot: foo
19:37:29 <rudybot> cky: ; Value: |0000012345678|
19:37:33 <cky> *shrug*
19:37:36 <DT``> rudybot, (define || 1)
19:37:37 <rudybot> DT``: your sandbox is ready
19:37:37 <rudybot> DT``: Done.
19:37:40 <DT``> rudybot, ||
19:37:41 <rudybot> DT``: ; Value: 1
19:37:46 <cky> Yep, that. :-)
19:37:48 <cky> Yay for empty symbols.
19:37:57 <DT``> I love the empty symbol!
19:38:03 <cky> :-)
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19:53:09 <jcowan_> There's a ballot item on whether to allow them.
19:53:12 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan
19:58:38 <DT``> if I had a vote, it would get it all. It's not different than "", '() or #(), imho.
20:04:45 <tab1ta> tnks cky
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23:33:07 <Praetor> can anyone confirm that Gambit has defmacro?
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