00:03:43 "this person" 00:03:46 *eli* chuckles 00:03:57 It could have been funny if it wasn't so sad. 00:04:40 samth: In fact they didn't -- during it's last few semesters, 6.001 was done via both plt scheme and mit scheme, and you can guess which way most students went. 00:05:26 foof: It's funny that you mention 4 people, where 3 out of them gave up on the myth of portable and practical scheme libraries. 00:05:40 (for various reasons.) 00:06:30 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.250] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:16:59 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 00:18:44 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbecd19.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:18:54 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfc87c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 00:23:04 eli: Yes, very tragic, especially when we are about to make that myth a reality. 00:23:48 Jonathan Kraut would be an example of a newcomer attempting the same thing with Sassy, who I hope we can save before he gives up. 00:25:57 He's never gonna give Scheme up, he's never gonna let Scheme down.... 00:32:34 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 00:34:32 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:35:41 foof: Can we try to work out the module factorization? 00:41:32 did we just get Rick-Schemed? 00:48:03 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:54:55 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-128-100.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:02:27 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-34-152.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:12:21 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:13:00 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:17:24 drdo` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:18:56 -!- drdo` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:03 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:22:52 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 01:22:52 sheikra [~wy@222.215.221.45] has joined #scheme 01:23:02 cky is todays #scheme winner 01:23:07 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 01:23:56 What did he win? 01:24:21 voice? 01:24:36 -!- ChanServ has set mode +v cky 01:25:36 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #scheme 01:26:09 elly: ;-) 01:26:10 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:36 ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-57-102-171.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:25 eli: Why so wry? 01:30:29 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:30:59 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 01:31:42 jcowan: We need to settle the matter of using module optionality as part of your rationale. 01:32:07 Okay. Swords or pistols? 01:33:34 hrm? 01:35:35 Well, several of the modules I originally proposed exist because R5RS says either in express words or by implication that they are optional. Complex and rational are straightforward examples of this. 01:37:21 *klutometis* internally models the foof vs. jcowan controversy in terms of Jax vs. Clay (a la Sons of Anarchy). 01:37:28 And I note that Chibi has neither in its base. 01:37:57 Or at all, currently. 01:38:18 So it is not absurd to think that a non-extreme Scheme implementation might not support all modules. 01:39:04 (The great thing about dueling with pistols is that if your shot misses, you can knock down your opponent with the pistol butt. OTOH, a bullet might go almost anywhere, but swords pretty much have to go somewhere.) 01:39:24 Actually, R5RS is somewhat vague, but the bindings themselves are not optional. They just return trivial values if the implementation doesn't support the required number type. 01:40:31 So we can choose to make the modules all required, and have implementations do whatever makes most sense as in R5RS. 01:40:46 Or we can make a distinction between required and optional modules. 01:41:10 Some of the bindings are optional, foof. 01:41:17 hi! no-one remember article, how-to use gtk lib by calling functions directly from *.so? 01:41:34 Riastradh: Yes, but not the bindings in the two example modules he gave. 01:41:45 i dont want ffi, i'm writing it. on scheme 01:41:56 E.g., from p. 24, `MAGNITUDE is the same as ABS for real arguments, but ABS must be present in all implementations, whereas MAGNITUDE need only be present in implementations that support general complex numbers.' 01:43:11 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:43:17 Ah, I missed that - `magnitude' is not explicitly labeled "optional" like, say, `eval'. 01:45:19 jcowan: We could also just change the text describing modules as optional to say they are only optional in the case where they would not be implementable due to the environment or limitations of the system. 01:45:44 I'm not opposed to that offhand, though I'd have to think about it. 01:46:21 Yes, the whole set of complex procedures is marked "present in every Scheme implementation that supports general complex numbers", which at least strongly implies that they can be absent when there are no complex numbers. 01:46:33 forelle [~forelle@keflavik.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 01:46:34 But in that case, what is the rationale for putting case-lambda in a module at all? 01:47:21 Because its abuse should be discouraged - it is only appropriate in a small set of situations. 01:48:35 klutometis: ? 01:50:00 Anything controversial (and the mere fact that we are having this argument indicates that case-lambda is controversial) is a candidate for relegation to a module. 01:51:34 That leads to everything being in a module, since it only takes one to make a controversy. 01:52:08 The RnRS went ahead only by unanimous consent... 01:52:59 True, but foof and I and the SC decided otherwise. 01:53:09 We're pretty aligned on most issues, but note I did say "candidate." We probably only want to make highly controversial features modules. 01:53:37 So far we have three votes for case-lambda-in-a-module and one for each of parameters and define-record-type. 01:53:41 s/votes/voices 01:54:43 eli: There is an element in your humor of the tragic clown: something wry, slightly cynical. 01:55:33 I just posted BinaryPortsCowan, which is a little more conservative than PortsCowan was. 01:56:32 Anyway, I have work to do... 01:56:34 Riastradh: There is no stacking, but you can get pure character, pure binary, or both character and binary ports. 01:56:51 That's broken. 01:56:54 foof: Okay, catchyalater. 01:56:56 Riastradh: Why? 01:57:03 It's how MIT Scheme does things, and it works very badly. 01:57:18 Okay, I'm definitely interested in how it fails. 01:57:20 jcowan: It is broken, and everyone has said it is broken. I'll make an I/O counter-proposal later. 01:57:47 I can't reliably use READ-BYTE on a port. I/O is stupidly slow. 01:58:19 You can't use READ-BYTE on an output port. And why is the slowness inherent to such a design? 01:58:23 jcowan: You also didn't respond to my last comment on `include'. I'd like a clearer idea of the use-cases you envision and how you think the pwd will resolve. 01:58:35 foof: Still thinking about that. 01:58:48 (OK, now I'm gone.) 01:59:12 An input port. I/O is stupidly slow because READ-BYTE can't straightforwardly just fetch a byte out of an internal buffer, because it has to worry about the superfluous case of an input port that doesn't even have a buffer of bytes. 02:00:02 So you are opposed to unbuffered I/O altogether, or you want a separate function for unbuffered I/O? 02:00:10 (un-byte-buffered, that is) 02:00:27 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 02:00:28 Unbuffered I/O is a better special case for READ-BYTE (or READ-OCTET, whatever) of buffered I/O than the other way around. 02:00:55 levi` [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:01:35 Sorry, but I don't follow you. 02:02:52 kanru_ [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #scheme 02:03:06 If you declare in advance on a port that you intend to read characters only, there is no reason why read-u8 should not work on that port. 02:03:16 s/should not work/should work 02:03:34 The abstraction is needlessly confused if it doesn't have a set of basic operations on it. 02:03:35 rotty_ [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 02:03:37 bremner_ [~bremner@yantan.tethera.net] has joined #scheme 02:03:42 It is really two different abstractions that share a common name for no useful reason. 02:03:50 Adrinael_ [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 02:04:08 takamoron [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #scheme 02:04:14 pranq_ [pranq@bbis.us] has joined #scheme 02:04:30 Meaning character and binary ports? 02:04:38 Yes. 02:05:11 I agree that they are different abstractions, but not that a single object can't implement both abstractions simultaneously. 02:05:30 By the same token, a port may be both an input-port and an output-port, though there are no such ports in R7RS-small. 02:06:21 klutometis: I'm doing the israeli thing and just react to what I see; in this case it was jcowan's childish behavior. If that's wry or cynical then so be it. Scheme is being killed in a slow an amateurish way either way. 02:06:30 s/an/and/ 02:08:54 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:54 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:54 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:55 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:55 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:55 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:55 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:55 -!- pranq [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:55 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:55 -!- bremner [~bremner@yantan.tethera.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:55 -!- takamoro1 [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:08:55 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:09:02 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 02:17:51 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:10 -!- forelle [~forelle@keflavik.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has left #scheme 02:18:11 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 02:20:25 -!- kanru_ is now known as kanru 02:22:06 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 02:23:01 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has left #scheme 02:23:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:24:22 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 02:24:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-53.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:26:05 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-100-115.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:27:11 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28:31 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 02:35:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-100-115.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:39:49 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:35 tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:45:04 chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #scheme 02:45:50 Prometheus_ [~heyy@CPE00119554b94c-CM00222d55a275.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 02:46:58 -!- Prometheus_ [~heyy@CPE00119554b94c-CM00222d55a275.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #scheme 02:47:07 Prometheus_ [~heyy@CPE00119554b94c-CM00222d55a275.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 02:47:23 has anybody used Maple? 02:47:26 by maplesoft 02:55:11 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-121-185.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:07:01 samth_ [~samth@c-24-128-51-63.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:48 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:32 -!- Prometheus_ [~heyy@CPE00119554b94c-CM00222d55a275.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Prometheus_] 03:12:23 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:21 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 03:13:30 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:18:42 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:18:42 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:18:42 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 03:19:37 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:23:27 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 03:25:24 i have, not extensively though. prefer the mathematica 03:26:41 -!- lusory [~bart@bb119-74-208-59.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:28:03 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:36:11 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:38:34 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 03:39:52 -!- sheikra [~wy@222.215.221.45] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:40:19 sheikra [~wy@222.215.221.45] has joined #scheme 03:40:23 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:43:08 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 03:45:54 -!- elliottcable [~ec@ec2-174-129-205-205.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #scheme 03:47:59 -!- elderK [~dgw@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:51:03 otzi [~r333t@189.107.165.63] has joined #scheme 03:53:33 hello, I want to make a scheme program to help me out in my C++ programming. I want it to be able to parse C++ language, does anyone know of a C++ parser in scheme? 03:54:48 Yikes!! 03:55:02 Parsing C++ is tremendously non-trivial. 03:56:44 -!- tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: tshauck] 03:57:44 that's why I'm hoping for a library that already does it :P 03:57:55 I doubt whether anyone's written a complete C++ parser in Scheme. 03:58:04 ...or anything remotely near a complete C++ parser either. 03:58:57 yeah, I thought so too, but no harm in asking :P 04:01:30 I don't really need a parser that works for every corner case. I want to be able to extract what includes are needed from a C++ file. If I fail to find some won't be too bad. 04:02:01 There are, like, about three correct C++ parsers 04:02:29 I bet there are actually zero correct C++ parsers, because the standard is inconsistent. 04:02:35 perhaps it's something I can do myself, at least for most common cases I use 04:02:36 Of course, sometimes people will write incorrect C++ and you have to parse that too. 04:02:55 otzi, oh, parsing cpp is much, much easier. 04:03:26 `Much easier' in the sense of climbing the stairs to your apartment versus climbing Everest. 04:03:45 Well, I'd still use the elevator. 04:07:55 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #scheme 04:11:46 -!- samth_ [~samth@c-24-128-51-63.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:07 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:15:41 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.161.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:16:22 is there a perl parser in scheme then? 04:17:25 Is there a perl grammar specified anywhere? 04:17:38 There is an executable specification! 04:18:03 Is it written in scheme? 04:18:29 I was referring to the interpreter. 04:18:50 Whatever. Is it written in scheme? That should be our ultimate answer... 04:19:10 I suppose you could write a C interpreter, in scheme... 04:19:28 Or a C compiler. 04:19:35 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 04:20:48 salami_swami [4a6fc587@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.111.197.135] has joined #scheme 04:20:51 hmm 04:21:44 That said, developing parsers of the popular languages in scheme is interesting, since that would allow translating them into scheme... 04:23:23 so scheme has web servers 04:23:30 why nto native database in scheme? 04:23:36 something that keeps data in memory 04:23:41 and logs updates to trasnaction log 04:23:50 then dump whole data to disk every hour or so 04:23:56 www.prevayler.org 04:23:58 etc 04:24:07 also is there scheme DNS server? 04:24:38 salami_swami: I'd bet there are both. At least, there are in Common Lisp. 04:25:35 nice 04:30:45 scheme should have a prevalence layer 04:30:50 without objects as such 04:30:54 just data in memory 04:30:57 data driven programming 04:31:16 and queries in scheme 04:32:28 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 04:39:09 slembcke [~slembcke@c-98-240-188-43.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:40:02 -!- salami_swami [4a6fc587@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.111.197.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:45:49 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:51:04 -!- otzi [~r333t@189.107.165.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:54:15 Jafet1 [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 04:54:37 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:54:39 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 04:56:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:57:59 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 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has joined #scheme 11:34:22 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: zZzZzZz] 11:41:11 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 11:41:20 tupi [~david@189.60.161.65] has joined #scheme 11:51:44 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55:10 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 12:03:42 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:06:05 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 12:08:25 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:08:46 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 12:13:27 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 12:15:58 -!- tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: tshauck] 12:22:11 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@62.101.146.61] has joined #scheme 12:22:16 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:22:33 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:32:22 -!- Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:34:16 Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 12:37:05 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:58:06 lusory [~bart@bb220-255-193-239.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 12:58:37 fridge [~fridge@114-198-40-46.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 12:58:56 I know this is a long shot, but is there any web scheme interpreters ? 12:59:39 fridge: there are some very simple interpreters in javascript, if I understand your question. 12:59:46 -!- fbass [~zac@75-173-91-146.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:25 yes, I'm looking for interactive interpreter session to evaluate small scheme snippets 13:01:35 ie sicp from a browser 13:02:24 fridge: ok. You can either use a client side interpreter (in javascript) or use a server side interpreter. 13:03:10 fridge: For a server side example, see section 4 of http://gazette.call-cc.org/issues/10.html 13:23:33 rostayob [~astroboy@wavelan130.doc.ic.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 13:24:45 -!- samth_ [~samth@c-24-128-51-63.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:25:44 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:27:25 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:34:36 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 13:35:42 thanks 13:35:44 -!- fridge [~fridge@114-198-40-46.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #scheme 13:36:48 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-9.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:46:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:16 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 13:54:46 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:45 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.69] has joined #scheme 13:56:45 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.69] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:45 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:00:01 rgee [~rgrinberg@66.49.226.251] has joined #scheme 14:00:25 -!- bremner_ is now known as bremner 14:10:03 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:14:02 is there a function that gives all but the last elements of a list in scheme? basically reverse . cdr . reverse 14:14:03 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 14:16:57 rostayob: butlast (from srfi-1) 14:17:13 mario-goulart: thanks 14:17:17 There's no BUTLAST in SRFI 1. There is, however, a DROP-RIGHT. 14:17:21 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 14:17:25 (drop-right list 1) 14:17:44 rostayob: Riastradh is right 14:19:03 mario-goulart: butlast works in chicken 14:19:08 *mario-goulart* somehow thought butlast was from srfi-1 14:19:17 mario-goulart: as usual :P 14:19:20 rostayob: yeah, it's from the data-structures unit 14:19:47 regarding Riastradh being right :P 14:19:56 also, is there something to do partial application in lisp? 14:19:57 I supposed so. :-) 14:20:32 rostayob: the most general answer is lambda, but there are convenience functions 14:20:35 rostayob: SRFI 26. 14:21:00 bremner: yeah exactly it would be syntactic sugar for lambda in scheme's case 14:21:22 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:21:32 of course for dino-lisps without lexical scope, I don't really know 14:23:01 Great expression! 14:23:05 bremner: dino-lisps? 14:23:38 elisp, autolisp, newlisp. 14:23:48 also, wait a second, there are lisps without lexical scoping? 14:23:50 oh 14:24:16 Traditional Lisp interpreters had dynamic scope, but both Common Lisp and Scheme have lexical scope. 14:24:37 (CL provides dynamic scope also, and it's easy to emulate it in Scheme if you really want to.) 14:25:05 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:25:08 oh, interesting, I didn't know 14:25:51 No, it's not, jcowan. Fortunately, almost every practical system out there provides it appropriately. 14:26:30 And what do you mean by "appropriately"? 14:26:52 `doesn't interfere with concurrency' 14:27:36 Which is why R7RS provides it. 14:29:42 Riastradh: what does T know that it would be worthwhile to resurrect it? 14:32:45 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 14:33:10 fantazo [~fantazo@91-115-174-73.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 14:36:32 -!- rostayob [~astroboy@wavelan130.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 14:37:19 The dead are always worth resurrecting, provided you put a bag on them so you can beat them to death again if they turn out bad to the bone. 14:38:19 jcowan: the bag could be optional 14:38:35 Sure it's optional. But the costs of omitting it can be ... ominously large. 14:39:51 After all, it was I who modified the Foogol compiler to generate C rather than Vax assembly language, thus preserving its dubious benefits for a new generation. 14:40:22 Yay 14:40:38 Did anyone do the ICFP contest this year? 14:41:11 contest? we've got scheme standards and compilers to write ;) 14:41:18 no time for contests ;) 14:41:25 Well, that's my excuse... 14:41:49 *jcowan* is always looking for people to write WG2 package proposals. 14:41:53 Just saying. 14:41:57 But there are plenty of idle bums here. 14:42:10 *foof* looks meaningfully at Riastradh 14:43:27 Him, idle? You think it's easy to make up utterances as simultaneously magisterial and obscure as he does? 14:43:55 -!- gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-237-46.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:45:51 some years ago #scheme participated in the ICFP contest 14:46:10 -!- ianl` [~ianl@Bluenose.CS.Dal.Ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:46:45 we didn't sleep much, but it was fun 14:47:12 This year's contest looked pretty cool. 14:47:37 ianl` [~ianl@Bluenose.CS.Dal.Ca] has joined #scheme 14:47:47 my favourite was the ray tracer and the virtual machine 14:48:08 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:59 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 14:50:18 http://www.boundvariable.org/ 14:51:13 were* 14:54:57 *Riastradh* stares blankly at foof. 14:54:59 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:56:00 z0d, not much. It has a fairly tightly designed compiler back end and data representations that enable it to generate locally pretty good code. 14:57:36 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:57:47 Its method dispatch mechanism is cute, and has the nice property that it is lexically scoped, but I don't think it's quite right. 14:58:01 How many of you are chicken fans? 14:58:29 *jcowan* waves his hand. 14:58:33 I eat chicken, but I wouldn't call myself a fan of chicken the way I am a fan of duck. 14:58:56 =] 14:58:57 *jcowan* occasionally wonders about turducken, but has never eaten any. 14:58:59 chicken scheme of course. 14:59:04 But I love eating chicken too. 14:59:17 Or rather, the chicken compiler. 14:59:20 Chickens are nice 14:59:29 Including the compiler 14:59:32 =] 14:59:44 I'm interested in the performance of compiled scheme. 14:59:54 `slow' 14:59:59 Oh? 15:00:24 (Unless you're comparing it to, say, Ruby, which is like comparing a snail to a bacterium.) 15:00:31 =] 15:00:52 There are two kinds of PL communities, those which are obsessed with speed and those which aren't. 15:01:10 *askhader* is neither, merely interested. 15:01:27 The former have suffered a psychological wound in the past (sometimes decades in the past) of being mocked for slowness. 15:01:31 =P 15:02:02 Lisp has been mocked for slowness throughout its history. 15:02:05 So is `slowness` something observed in all compiled scheme or with chicken-compiled scheme in particular? 15:02:22 Chicken is generally considered to be on the fast end. 15:02:37 Is there something inherent in the design of lisp that makes compiling it to quick `byte-code` difficult? 15:02:38 Except when doing floating-point, at which it is fairly slow. 15:02:42 Ah. 15:02:59 Oh, if bytecode is your standard, then no, most Schemes are fast. 15:03:27 Hmm 15:03:31 I should look up words before I use them 15:03:33 I didn't mean bytecode. 15:03:44 Stand-alone executable instructions... 15:04:02 native code ;) 15:04:05 Yes. 15:04:07 =D 15:04:09 Not in principle, no. 15:04:14 Do you want to implement hairy computer vision algorithms? If you want to do it in Scheme, you have your work cut out for you to substantially improve your compiler no matter which one you choose. 15:05:06 So this is a lack of support thing? 15:05:14 Only partly. 15:05:20 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:48 (a) Nobody cares to use it, so there's no pressure to implement it well. (b) Nobody cares to implement it well, so there's no incentive to use it. 15:06:11 How unfortunate. 15:06:40 I guess the optimizations that remain to be added to a scheme compiler must be rather non-trivial to implement. 15:06:51 s/a/any 15:07:42 askhader: The same argument applies to almost all languages, though, except C/C++. 15:07:47 algorithms are hard, let's go shopping 15:07:48 (This is an approximate picture. There is a small intersection of people who would like to use it and people who would like to implement it well who have just enough time to make sure it works well enough not to be totally useless for personal applications. But it's too small to matter for anything but personal applications.) 15:08:27 I see. 15:08:32 You can probably do computer vision in Java, and maybe in Ocaml. 15:08:52 a friend who did it in ocaml ended up writing an ocaml->c++ compiler and hairy dynamic linker. 15:09:08 but hey, compilers are fun! 15:09:09 But speaking to the realities of particular Scheme implementations: 15:09:13 Fortran would be fast enough but is old and clumsy. 15:09:14 And all the papers on the subject of compiling Scheme well have already been written, so there's no incentive for academics to get into it seriously. 15:09:37 Stalin produces extremely fast code but takes forever to compile, due to its intense optimizations. 15:09:41 Have any of you written something in scheme where speed was an issue? 15:09:48 Gambit is the fastest ordinary Scheme. 15:09:50 And I'm not talking about writing naieve code. 15:10:03 Interesting. 15:10:04 Chicken is somewhat behind it, not being focused as obsessively on speed as Gambit. 15:10:09 askhader: Yes, I worked on NLP and Scheme was unusable. 15:10:21 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:10:34 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:10:41 askhader: So what does foof do? He goes out and writes the slowest available Scheme. 15:10:47 lol 15:10:48 Which did he use? 15:10:50 *That* is the spirit of the Scheme community. 15:11:02 Oh he literally wrote the slowest scheme. 15:11:12 jcowan: It's an order of magnitude faster than tinyscheme/scheme9/scm. 15:11:21 Well, okay. 15:11:22 foof: Could you be a bit more specific about where you ran into issues? 15:11:57 Tinyscheme is not Scheme at all, Scheme 9 is a pure codewalking interpreter -- is SCM also a codewalking interpreter? 15:12:23 Riastradh: so it's purely a problem of all those papers not being implemented in one compiler? 15:12:41 askhader: it was too slow 15:14:08 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.121.185] has joined #scheme 15:14:52 And no, I was not using chibi :) 15:15:04 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.161.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:15:06 Nobody does the static analysis combined with the back end design necessary to interprocedurally eliminate data representation checks and conversions, askhader. 15:15:41 you can do that with dynamic techniques, riastradh. 15:15:44 Not even Stalin? I thought that was precisely what it did. 15:15:50 (Stalin doesn't count because you can't use it for just about anything useful.) 15:16:04 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:16:51 Why not? 15:16:58 Slooooooowwwww compile times. 15:17:05 It takes more than a day for Stalin to compile itself. 15:17:25 That seems... excessive 15:17:30 Not good enough, wingo, unless it is acceptable to run your compiler simultaneously with your program on the overloaded network server that lulzsec is trying to attack by feeding it cat macros to do computer vision on. Said dynamic techniques might bring you from a bacterium to a snail. 15:17:32 or at the very least, impractical 15:17:49 HG` [~HG@p579F7F96.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:17:52 Ah I see. 15:17:57 Completely ungodly compile times. 15:18:11 Riastradh: you are being silly. 15:18:14 Stalin is buggy and non-interactive and generally nigh unusable. 15:18:21 self's techniques are applicable to scheme. 15:18:23 On theoretical grounds I would think that Scheme would be an excellent candidate for JIT rather than AOT compiling. 15:18:30 <-- what wingo said 15:18:47 self's techniques? 15:18:59 Self is the son of Smalltalk and the father of modern Java implementations. 15:19:00 wingo's techniques ;) 15:19:09 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 15:19:11 :P 15:19:11 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:19:19 lol 15:19:25 http://labs.oracle.com/self/papers/papers.html 15:19:26 the racket folk have lots of JIT experience... 15:19:56 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 15:20:29 It's always possible to invent problems that are harder than the state of the art, for any state of the art. 15:20:35 they have a jit; but i am not aware that it has anything on v8... 15:20:52 v8 is very good. 15:20:59 what is it with your v8 obsession lately :) 15:21:00 I am being only partially silly, wingo. 15:21:13 "Yes, but will your web app survive MILLIONS of users hitting it BILLIONS of times per second, each? No? Not scalable! No VC biscuit!" 15:21:24 wingo: well, v8 is not exactly portable last time I checked, if you care about that. 15:21:40 bremner: no native-code compiler is portable 15:21:51 that said, v8 does x86-32, -64, arm, and mips. 15:21:58 Well, no, there are techniques for portable JITs 15:22:07 wingo: oh, that is better than I thought 15:22:16 MIPS FTW 15:23:47 The classic way to do a portable JIT is to write each block of code in C, put a label at the beginning and end of each one, and memcpy the compiled code about using the labels as void* pointers. Not gonna be very fast, but it's still faster than interpretation. 15:24:04 (Probably needs gcc) 15:24:18 probably need some old gcc 15:24:28 modern gcc does a lot of reordering of blocks 15:24:47 Make each one a function, then. YOu have no function-calling overhead. 15:25:00 because the preludes and postludes are never executed. 15:25:29 Until GCC starts to do trace compiling or heavy interprocedural optimiization, that should suffice. 15:26:42 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 15:30:48 you might be amused at this bug report: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.guile.bugs/5653 15:31:14 6 people trying to make a program that gcc won't inline :P 15:35:08 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:33 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.250] has joined #scheme 15:37:05 Put the test routine in a separate object and pass in an address it has to write to. 15:37:55 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:04 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 15:38:15 jcowan [4a4470bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.68.112.189] has joined #scheme 15:39:26 void find_stack_direction(int *d) { (*d) = (((int *) (void *) (&d)) < d); } 15:43:41 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:43:49 *jcowan* detests, loathes, and despises programs whose windows grab the focus, especially when they are transient windows. 15:44:32 This particular app pops up a window saying, in essence, "Working...." with a Cancel button, and grabs focus. If you happen to be typing into a text window and hit space or enter at the wrong moment, the program gets canceled. 15:44:34 Bah. 15:44:51 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:45:37 jcowan, I wrote a long treatise on the subject. You can find it in the 2011-05-09 entry of . 15:46:34 amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 15:46:46 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7F96.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:47:07 Huh. I wonder why that didn't pop up in my RSS reader. Maybe it did and I've just forgotten. 15:47:53 I think it's one of the more clearly written and refined pieces in the blag. 15:47:55 *offby1* agrees 15:48:19 I haven't been irked by that recently but used to be 15:51:05 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 15:51:32 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51:32 -!- docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:20 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:26 amoe [~amoe@cpc3-brig16-2-0-cust858.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 15:57:12 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 15:58:43 docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has joined #scheme 16:01:35 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 16:04:59 -!- levi` is now known as levi 16:06:39 Wow, Riastradh is workin' for the man now. 16:07:30 Although, now I suspect the 2011-03-32 entry is a joke. 16:08:24 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 16:08:48 Riastradh: i think your assessment of Scheme compiler speeds is overly pessimistic, not to say wrong 16:09:14 good Scheme compilers are in the same ballpark as ocaml or erlang 16:09:29 or F# 16:16:00 levi: so March as 32 days now, eh? 16:17:36 at february's expense. 16:17:46 took its lunch money, too. 16:19:05 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:20:24 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:20:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:37 bully 16:26:04 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:50 Riastradh: that was a beautifully written blag entry. even better than the March entry, imho. 16:40:11 ckrailo_ [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 16:40:17 *Riastradh* bows. 16:41:35 (Erlang?) 16:42:58 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:42:58 -!- ckrailo_ is now known as ckrailo 16:44:27 Riastradh: are you skeptical of my claim, or that Erlang a good comparison, or ? 16:45:04 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.231] has joined #scheme 16:45:17 I wouldn't dream of using Erlang for any high-performance computing... 16:45:51 Riastradh: that all depends on what you mean by high-performance computing (which is a technical term as well as a general catchall) 16:48:14 Well, no, it doesn't. 16:49:23 There's always Etos. 16:50:49 Riastradh: people certainly use erlang for code that's "high performance" in the general sense 16:50:53 I might consider using it to implement a high-level routing system for a grid or something, but not to implement the programs that are actually doing any interesting computation. 16:51:44 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:51:58 large companies successfully use erlang for "interesting computation" that runs fast 16:52:15 so while you might not consider it ... 16:52:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-90.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:52:17 the market has spoken 16:52:58 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 16:53:54 ckrailo_ [~ckrailo@208.86.167.250] has joined #scheme 16:55:25 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:25 -!- ckrailo_ is now known as ckrailo 16:55:41 HG` [~HG@p579F7F96.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:24 ckrailo_ [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 17:00:00 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:00:00 -!- ckrailo_ is now known as ckrailo 17:03:38 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 17:06:12 Riastradh: Is your blog really just a text feed? 17:06:15 Apparently it is... 17:07:01 Blog? I don't have a blog: . 17:07:11 meh semantics 17:08:57 There is an RSS feed for it at http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/blag.xml . 17:13:33 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:06 The heading on your RSS feed is outdated, jcowan. 17:15:34 NNshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 17:15:34 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:10 Indeed, it is not well formed either. 17:18:10 *jcowan* investigates 17:18:42 well formed xml is so last year 17:19:58 True. The rise of MicroXML is just beginning (though it is still well-formed XML) 17:22:07 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 17:22:23 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.231] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 17:25:53 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.231] has joined #scheme 17:26:06 mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 17:26:55 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:11 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:33:41 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:39:54 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:40:22 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:48 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.69] has joined #scheme 17:45:48 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.69] has quit [Changing host] 17:45:48 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 17:46:18 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:49:09 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.231] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 17:49:55 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.231] has joined #scheme 17:50:59 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-90.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-90.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:05:53 choas [~lars@p578F6E65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:06:33 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.231] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 18:15:33 Well, the XML is ill-formed because there is a bug in the state machine that interprets the blag. 18:17:08 why is v8's regex engine so good? 18:17:42 or i guess my real question is "how" 18:18:35 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 18:20:03 lots of thrust 18:22:12 hm... looks like there's some bits of info here: http://blog.chromium.org/2009/02/irregexp-google-chromes-new-regexp.html 18:22:18 elly: err. torque? 18:22:32 or are you thinking of the rockets? 18:22:44 I'm thinking of the rockets. 18:23:14 same name as foof's implementation 18:23:33 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:17 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Quit: brb] 18:25:54 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #scheme 18:25:59 (we've got the rockets!) 18:26:24 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:36 not quite the same name, foof's doesn't have a "p" at the end 18:27:04 indeed 18:28:01 Google's is a statement, foof's is a predicate 18:28:12 or rather vice versa 18:28:15 (irregexp soup) 18:28:22 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 18:29:04 I love working at a place where one thinks "hm, how can we make sure we don't have a performance regression?" "well, let's just try running it across the entire internet and see if it slows down anywhere" 18:37:54 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:49:14 -!- jcowan [4a4470bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.68.112.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:08 jcowan [c6b91248@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.72] has joined #scheme 18:55:50 -!- jcowan [c6b91248@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:59:07 -!- XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:59:23 XTL [~XTL@84.248.106.251] has joined #scheme 19:00:59 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:07:05 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 19:12:43 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:35 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-4.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:28:28 turbofail: it jit-compiles, basically 19:28:46 fwiw jsc also has a good regexp jit compiler 19:30:54 hrm 19:31:34 "yarrr", it's called. 19:33:38 yarr is also used in firefox 19:37:42 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-4.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:38:55 i hear you are a javascript hacker these days samth 19:44:36 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:45:40 -!- penryu [~tanuki@unaffiliated/penryu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:46:45 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 19:50:27 HG`` [~HG@p579F7704.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:51:07 penryu [~tanuki@unaffiliated/penryu] has joined #scheme 19:51:24 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #scheme 19:53:43 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7F96.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:02:51 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 20:09:59 stis [~stis@host-90-239-48-167.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 20:25:05 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:26:28 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-40.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:27:41 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:28:02 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 20:28:06 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:29:35 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:35:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-90.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:35:34 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:38:06 wingo: not really, just a standards hacker 20:38:46 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 20:47:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-90.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:52:20 -!- Kajtek is now known as szkla 20:52:34 -!- szkla is now known as Kajtek 20:57:32 -!- ianl` [~ianl@Bluenose.CS.Dal.Ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:20 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-115-174-73.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-90.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:02 githogori [~githogori@105.sub-75-208-195.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 21:46:15 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 22:06:05 Riastradh: Were you aware of Dijkstra's paper () when you established the foof-loop-axiom, "Lower bounds are inclusive; upper bounds are exclusive?" 22:06:29 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:10:39 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.210.170.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:14 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-239-48-167.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:04 -!- githogori [~githogori@105.sub-75-208-195.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:16:08 klutometis: I'd read that before (and I'm not certain it's 100% serious) but it's still beautiful. 22:16:13 I wonder why it's hand-lettered? 22:16:18 *offby1* ponders having it printed on a T-shirt 22:16:48 Wasn't everything by Dijkstra hand-written? 22:16:48 sorry, for asking again 22:17:03 no-one remember article, how-to use gtk lib by calling functions directly from *.so? 22:17:03 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-170-119.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:17:30 not me 22:17:39 offby1: That's how Dijkstra all of Dijkstra's manuscripts are maintained, I think: . 22:17:49 s/Dijkstra//1 22:18:03 xvilka, are you asking how to use an ffi? 22:18:24 gosh 22:18:33 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.145] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:38 makes me seriously consider the word "manuscript" 22:19:20 thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.145] has joined #scheme 22:20:30 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:27:07 yes. dijkstra was rigorous about hand-writing his letters. 22:27:39 and I'd guess it's entirely serious, from what else I've read of his. 22:33:34 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.145] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:07 otzi [~r333t@189.107.165.63] has joined #scheme 22:34:14 -!- choas [~lars@p578F6E65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:34:25 thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.145] has joined #scheme 22:48:10 jonrafkind: no 22:48:28 jonrafkind: i'm want to implement ffi 22:48:47 directly on scheme with dlopen/etc 22:49:21 so are you asking how to use dlopen and dlsym? 22:49:38 God damn: I've heard that Beethoven's late quartets were sublime (and even experienced them as a teen); but nothing prepared me for the Cavatina of op. 130. Then lo and behold: ! 22:49:49 (Last entry.) 22:50:28 jonrafkind: some kind of. I've seen such article somewhere for scheme and gtk+ libs 22:50:54 what scheme system are you using 22:51:54 r4rs 22:52:06 home-made 22:57:23 klutometis: would be helpful if that site included a download link :) 23:07:02 ecraven: You're right; you could do worse than Guarneri: . 23:07:56 tricus [~tricus@h69-130-142-158.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.121.185] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:12:51 zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 23:13:08 -!- Kajtek is now known as Putin 23:13:23 -!- Putin is now known as jacaato 23:13:55 -!- jacaato is now known as Kajtek 23:15:19 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:08 fwiw, I found out about clang, it seems like a nice parser for C++ which works with C and C++. However, I couldn't find any bindings to scheme. 23:18:13 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 23:18:59 otzi: Why not make your own? 23:19:05 Oh! That's so sad! 23:19:17 No bindings to scheme! 23:19:39 Really inconsiderate on the part of those C compiler developers... 23:19:53 yesterday I was talking about how I wanted a c++ parser to scheme, today I'm reporting what I've found. 23:21:36 otzi: you got the parser, now do the scheme part! 23:23:07 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:23:57 i like how "the parser library" section in the clang internals manual is just blank 23:24:33 I've been looking this tutorial, seems promissing: http://amnoid.de/tmp/clangtut/tut.html 23:24:58 after reading the intro, it seems to be exactly what I need 23:26:40 otzi: (Sorry; by "make your own" I'm referring to Scheme bindings, of course.) 23:27:01 alright 23:27:30 otzi: perhaps swig can help. 23:27:44 otzi: I know it generates bindings for CL, perhaps it can do it for scheme too. 23:28:11 Yes, for chicken and mzscheme/racket. 23:29:01 cool 23:29:28 otzi, nice tutorial, I think ill use it 23:30:37 nice, what do you have in mind? 23:31:11 at first just doing very shallow things like checking for spelling mistakes in variables 23:31:22 eventually i want to do some static analysis of some c++ code I have to find bugs 23:31:38 cool 23:36:10 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:36:13 ah, seems clang has evolved since this tutorial was written, the examples dont compile as-is.. 23:36:34 that's both good and bad :P 23:37:00 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:37:14 how I love coding to moving api's :p 23:37:34 yeah, seems like clang is a work in progress 23:38:12 the best was when I upgraded to ubuntu 11.04 and clang couldn't find the native gcc stuff because it was in a path that wasn't in the hard coded list of paths clang uses, so i had to hack clangs source 23:38:40 there can only be one executable location! 23:39:01 it was some permutation of 'usr', 'lib', 'gcc', 'i686', and 'gnu' or something 23:39:06 we should have our executable paths fight to the death 23:39:40 I guess it's still very early in its development, huh? #llvm seems empty as well, otherwise it would make a good place to ask about the frontend. 23:39:58 the real llvm channel is on a different server 23:40:04 irc.oftc.net or something 23:40:08 oh, you're right 23:40:12 it's oftc 23:40:42 huh... guess they're too good for the mainstream servers 23:40:46 irc hipsters 23:40:51 i asked them why the paths were broken and they said someone was going to fix it eventually 23:41:00 hehe 23:41:33 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:43:41 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-138-183-74.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 23:44:25 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-183-74.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:44:57 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@62.101.146.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:47:14 githogori [~githogori@173.sub-75-247-51.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 23:50:09 otzi: you can't have your cake and eat it. Either it's work in progress, or it's "unmaintained". 23:50:17 chrissbx [~chrissbx@69-196-152-229.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:52:06 Is there some srfi or other commonly used function to build groups from list items? Like sort, but make sublists of those which are equal regarding the given comparison function. 23:52:33 I have an equivalence-classes function written in Common Lisp. You could translate it... 23:52:39 -!- githogori [~githogori@173.sub-75-247-51.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:53:15 Hm. I really think this should be something standard, I just don't know how you'd call it. 23:53:29 group-by or something. section maybe. 23:54:02 equivalence-classes 23:54:04 https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/cesarum/list.lisp 23:54:05 http://tinyurl.com/3bzdk5r 23:55:55 Well, fun, that's just a single loop usage. 23:56:00 -!- HG`` [~HG@p579F7704.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:56:29 What's the complexity of that solution, pjb? 23:57:57 I guess I'll just write a function that takes a sorted list and breaks it into sublists of equal items. 23:58:01 O(number of items) assuming the number of classes is small. 23:58:10 If you have a lot of classes, you can change the list to a hash-table. 23:58:21 well, that's called O(n^2) 23:58:34 Usually the number of class is very small.