00:02:05 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:03:53 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:14:39 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:15:49 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 00:23:28 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-159-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:26:14 ijp: Did you ever figure out yin-yang? 00:28:07 -!- NaN [~NaN@166.pool85-54-128.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:05 mechnik_ [4b48807a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.72.128.122] has joined #scheme 00:31:29 klutometis: I did, but it took me a while 00:33:24 -!- mechnik_ [4b48807a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.72.128.122] has quit [Client Quit] 00:34:57 Then you have to move on to the 3D version 00:35:23 yin-yang-lee 00:37:52 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 00:40:03 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:45:18 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:18 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:55:19 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:29 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:58:50 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:18:41 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:32 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 01:24:43 ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-57-102-171.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:24:52 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:36:02 -!- vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:38:02 vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has joined #scheme 01:41:24 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@62.101.146.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:55:29 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:59:35 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:04:20 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:24 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:09:35 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:49 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 02:13:29 tdignan [~tom@pdpc/supporter/student/tdignan] has joined #scheme 02:16:28 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:32:33 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #scheme 02:39:05 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:42:50 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:48:40 -!- SmartViking [~smartviki@unaffiliated/smartviking] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:58:35 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-vwtogbwlvuqutibn] has joined #scheme 02:58:39 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-vwtogbwlvuqutibn] has quit [Changing host] 02:58:39 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 02:59:59 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:08:26 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 03:08:47 jcowan: ; don't bother, actually. Q.v. URL. 03:09:12 ijp: Is it a matter of staring into the abyss of yin-yang for long enough; or did you employ some more disciplined mechanism? 03:09:19 klutometis: I'm face-blind, so I don't know who they are. 03:09:58 jcowan: Damn; foiled again by the semantic poverty of text. I think you're joking; but that is an actual disease. 03:11:05 Yes, and I actually do have it. 03:11:12 One of the 2% who are congenitally so. 03:11:33 I have a moderate case; I can usually recognize my immediate family members, and I always recognize myself in a mirror or photo. 03:12:23 klutometis: I employed paper :) 03:13:12 Origami handcuffs, perhaps? Very disciplined mechanism. 03:14:19 jcowan: Prosopagnosia? I'm surprised that affects 2%; it seems like face-perception should be deeply embedded in the reptilian brain or something. 03:15:16 I'd guess not; most mammals are all about scent-recognition, not sight recognition. 03:16:33 Hmm; are you able to make same-different judgements about faces; and derive age and gender? 03:17:47 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:17:56 jcowan: an interesting thought, but no, there was a pencil involved too. 03:19:04 klutometis: Yes, definitely. It's only recognition ("Who is this?") that's broken -- very specific. 03:19:24 I perceive the aesthetic elements of faces too. 03:19:53 But I can't, for example, recognize my friends or acquaintances out of context, or even know (if they don't speak) that they *are* my friends or acquaintances. 03:20:05 I had a rough time in school as a consequence, when nobody understood this. 03:26:45 Wow, I had no idea such a disease existed. 2% seems huge. 03:27:47 Well, none of us thought there was anything to complain about. What you never had, you don't miss. 03:27:51 I wear idiosyncratic shoes, and my accent is weird; so maybe I've encountered the two-percent club without knowing it. 03:28:00 *jcowan* chuckles. 03:28:02 Likely. 03:28:12 jcowan: I take it you can do induction on other qualities? 03:28:17 Voices, clothes, location, topics of conversation... 03:28:22 (Or is it deduction?) 03:28:39 It's not even that I can't recognize *any* face. It's just that I have to use the slow, unreliable mechanisms of general cognition to do so. 03:28:57 I.e., it's not hardware-optimized. 03:29:01 I'm about as good as recognizing faces as you all would be recognizing individual stones if you met them in different places later on. 03:29:08 Would you say you find it easier to distinguish identical twins? 03:30:21 The only pair I've ever known wore very different clothes and took different classes. 03:31:27 http://web.archive.org/web/20090525034533/http://www.prosopagnosia.com/main/stones/index.asp <-- Prosopagnosia and Stones 03:31:28 http://tinyurl.com/4y6swfo 03:32:17 (So who are the people in 207_not_sure_if_serious.jpg? Or does it not matter?) 03:35:30 The people who acquire prosopagnosia (from brain trauma, generally), are very rare, maybe one in 10^5, but they squawk loudly as soon as the gadget stops working, so those cases were discovered first. 03:36:17 I'd guess that nerds tend to have a higher percentage than the general population, just as they are more likely to be myopic. (Glasses-wearer, not too many friends => nerd.) 03:39:20 jcowan: It's a still from The Dark Knight with an anonymous interlocutor and Heath Ledger; whose tagline, "Why so serious?" was modified appropriately. 03:39:56 Ah, okay. I probably would know that if I'd seen the movie. 03:40:25 I was guessing a member of Anonymous accosting a member of the Bilderberg Group. 03:40:36 aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.143] has joined #scheme 03:44:12 Heh; that's good, actually. 03:47:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:57:42 http://teacherhumor.blogspot.com/2007/04/guy-goes-to-supermarket-and-notices.html <-- "I'm that guy" 03:57:43 http://tinyurl.com/3t4vucy 04:02:48 -!- aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.143] has quit [Quit: tutorial] 04:08:05 aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.143] has joined #scheme 04:12:38 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:15:34 -!- evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: the tubes they are clogged] 04:15:56 evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 04:18:52 Harlan D. Harre-Har, Esq 04:19:39 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-57-102-171.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:26:24 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 04:27:55 -!- evhan is now known as evhan` 04:27:57 THat's Har-Harre to you 04:28:07 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:53 -!- evhan` is now known as evhan 04:30:42 I think I know how to spell my own name. 04:30:58 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:34:12 Your own name, forsooth! I suppose you have said a name-consecration spell over it?! 04:36:08 trade secret. 04:46:04 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:46:59 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 04:55:27 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:56:07 djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 04:56:08 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:57:27 -!- evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:57:41 evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 05:00:25 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 05:02:40 -!- aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.143] has quit [Quit: hometime] 05:07:52 -!- evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: .] 05:07:59 evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 05:21:55 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable072.213-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: --> Put something intelligent here when I'm more bored <--] 05:22:20 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable072.213-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:23:01 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:36:58 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:37:36 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 05:39:57 -!- djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:20 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:47:06 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:50:49 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable072.213-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: --> Put something intelligent here when I'm more bored <--] 05:51:11 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:54:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:54:56 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:06:18 minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:26:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:27:49 -!- somnium [~user@adsl-98-65-189-155.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:02 bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-173-064.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:34:05 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:35:29 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:36:46 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:42:33 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 06:43:37 rotty, I have just been thinking a little about optional parameters, and I have concluded that the whole `supplied variable' business is bogus. In particular, if a procedure takes a different action depending on whether some optional parameter was literally supplied in the call site, which cannot be induced by passing any particular argument for the parameter, then that mechanism is not composable. 06:45:26 it's still a more concise form for an equivalent `case-lambda', and no worse, right? 06:45:59 *rotty* is stating the obvious 06:46:15 Oh, sure, CASE-LAMBDA isn't good for anything but implementing optional parameters. 06:48:15 well, I think it's useful for implementing things like `call-with-input-file*', where there may be 1 <= N <= 3 parameters for the final `receiver' procedure parameter 06:49:00 s/for/before/ 06:49:22 ? 06:51:10 Oh, I see. Yechh. 06:56:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:58:21 I think I like the way Racket added named parameters. There are a couple details I'm missing, but it's roughly what for a long time I've wanted someone to do. And it largely obviates any desire for optional positional parameters. 07:00:13 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:00:33 It requires hooking deeper into the system than CASE-LAMBDA does, but I think that's worth it. 07:10:43 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:17:35 eli, can I use LAMBDA to express what MAKE-KEYWORD-PROCEDURE expresses, or is the latter an essential primitive? 07:17:53 -!- foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:18:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 07:18:53 In other words, is there an analogue of &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS? 07:19:13 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 07:19:19 (Well, `analogue' is too strong a word, but anyway.) 07:20:16 Riastradh: No, you need `make-keyword-procedure' in order to build your own meta level functionality. (Eg, things like "get any keyword/values and pass them along", or "accept all keywords that `foo' does", or "... except #:bleh", or "... with #:blah added".) 07:20:51 But note that there is no claim that there's no need for something like that. 07:20:54 morning, schemers 07:20:58 wingo, does Guile support Racket's named parameter system? If not, you should consider it. 07:21:27 guile does the cl thing, basically. i do like racket's system tho! 07:21:34 It was basically left to deal with later, when there's a more pressing need for it, and, hopefully, some obvious way to do so. 07:21:46 Anyway, it's hours past my bed time, so *poof* 07:22:41 Riastradh: for related TL-style entertainment, there's some lambda the ultimate post with ... fun content. 07:34:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:35:20 foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 07:39:09 -!- entrix [~entrix@93-80-219-152.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 07:42:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:42:58 EbiDK [511bd602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.27.214.2] has joined #scheme 07:45:32 kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 08:01:33 -!- bipt 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15:10:25 Here's the use case I have for this. I know I can implement it easily in CPS, just want to know if it's been named already 15:10:27 s/something/a procedure/ 15:11:07 I have a function that takes a callback. I want to write as though I'm just getting the results from it in-line 15:11:31 So I'd do (call/cc-but-not-quite (thing-that-takes-callback)) 15:11:41 I don't have to check if I'm falling through from that or not 15:11:53 What is call/cc-but-not-quite's name, if it's been named? 15:12:47 If you can implement it in CPS, can you show the CPS code? What you have described is not clear to me. 15:13:28 same 15:13:41 What does the function do with that callback? 15:14:07 ohwow, it calls the callback after some external event occurs 15:14:15 and what should the callback do? 15:14:49 I'm sure it will be clearer to explain in Scheme than to explain further in English. 15:15:37 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 15:16:58 pyrony [~epic@173-116-183-175.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 15:17:22 *Sgeo* will try 15:18:18 So, if the callback is called, then you don't want this procedure to continue? 15:19:33 http://pastie.org/2032797 the former is what I want a name for, the latter is what I'm assuming regular call/cc looks like (I might be mistaken) 15:19:41 ijp, let the code explain. 15:20:34 Oh, actually, no, that's not quite what call/cc looks like is it 15:20:43 theratking862 [~theratkin@static-98-118-55-77.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:20:51 (lambda (k2)) isn't valid Scheme. (You're also missing the arguments for the values to return to the continuation, and you probably want to decide whether the continuation argument goes first or last in your CPS.) 15:21:09 Continuation going last 15:21:45 Is my intent clear despite the invalid scheme? 15:22:27 When you said you're also missing, are you talking about my call/cc estimate, or the first function? 15:22:32 No. I can't guess what you want the escape procedure given to FUNC to do. 15:22:45 Do you want something like CL: (catch 'exit (f (lambda () (throw 'exit)))) ? 15:22:52 The first one. 15:23:15 I want it to go to right after call/cc-but-not-quite was called 15:23:20 So that when the call back (the lambda) is called by f, it doesn't return, and f is not finished. 15:23:21 From your talk of external events, though, it sounds as though you just want to store a callback in some table and pull it out of the table later in a select loop or similar. 15:23:41 pjb, that's not substantially different from (cwcc f). 15:23:46 (at least in the context of the present discussion, as far as I can tell) 15:23:46 Yes. 15:23:49 Riastradh, that sounds about right 15:24:48 I'm trying to learn a bit of scheme by programming short graphical apps. anyone have any recommendations? (I just finished conways game of life and need a new project!) 15:24:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:24:54 -!- pyrony [~epic@173-116-183-175.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:25:37 Sgeo, oh, you want something that will return when the event happens? In that case, combine it with your table: (cwcc (lambda (k) (call-when-event-happens k) (return-to-event-loop] 15:25:46 theratking862: make a simple platformer game? 15:26:10 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:48 that might be a bit too adventurous. maybe something like asteroids? something with some list manipulations 15:26:49 And return-to-event-loop itself doesn't return? 15:26:55 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:19 Um, right. Hmm, I guess the way I phrased it the way I did is because the event loop will be outside the system 15:28:01 But would it be at all more efficient to just write the function to do that in CPS directly? 15:28:11 This isn't Scheme, btww 15:28:11 That's right, RETURN-TO-EVENT-LOOP returns control to the event loop, not to the caller; it discards the continuation you call it with. 15:28:52 Well, (define (return-when-event-happens k) (call-when-event-happens k (lambda () (return-to-event-loop k)))) is how you would write the same thing in CPS. 15:28:57 z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #scheme 15:28:57 -!- z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Changing host] 15:28:57 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 15:29:22 Is there a reason to have separate call/cc and return-when-event-happens instead of just a function that combines them? 15:29:32 ernm I mean return-to-event-loop 15:29:54 Just to separate the distinct concepts. 15:30:11 pyrony [~epic@72-57-39-238.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 15:30:13 ymasory [~ymasory@128.91.39.26] has joined #scheme 15:30:19 You might use RETURN-TO-EVENT-LOOP without saving your continuation. `I'm done with handling this client. Return to the event loop and forget any state I had.' 15:30:53 ...I think that just solved another problem I had, maybe 15:31:32 What to do when multiple things are trying to get info from one event, and deciding whether to continue processing the rest of the scheduled callbacks for the event or not 15:31:38 Actuallly, no 15:31:53 Conflating them like that is a bad idea, probably 15:32:33 I think I need sleep 15:33:39 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:33:47 -!- theratking862 [~theratkin@static-98-118-55-77.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #scheme 15:36:30 I'm thinking that my call-when-event-happens function should, as one of the return values, return a function that can tell it to process the rest of the callbacks or not 15:50:54 -!- pyrony [~epic@72-57-39-238.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:58:03 -!- evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:58:27 evhan [~evhan@thunktastic.com] has joined #scheme 16:00:42 -!- ijp [~user@host109-154-194-139.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:02:54 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:05:21 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:05:27 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 16:08:39 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #scheme 16:16:11 minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:16:27 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:21:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 16:28:38 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:01 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:46:37 EbiDK [3e6b7ac3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.107.122.195] has joined #scheme 16:55:48 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:00:29 bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-173-064.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:01:21 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:02:24 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:03:13 -!- NaN [~NaN@166.pool85-54-128.dynamic.orange.es] has left #scheme 17:04:04 -!- saccadewrk [~saccadewr@nat/google/x-qnwdnjbiigvubtbk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:07:24 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:09:54 homie` [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-186-211.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:12:20 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-189-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:21:32 -!- EbiDK [3e6b7ac3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.107.122.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:28:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:30:57 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:19 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:37:48 eli, gee, what possessed you to hold a conversation with that character? 17:41:17 it's glyph ? 17:41:28 lol 17:41:34 -!- homie` [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-186-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:41:45 Hmm. (keyword-apply p (append k0 k1) (append a0 a1) (append p0 p10)) doesn't work; you need to merge the sorted lists, or KEYWORD-APPLY needs to sort itself. 17:44:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-187-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:44:29 Isn't that a Racket thing? 17:45:01 Yes. 17:45:05 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-186-211.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:46:32 Riastradh: :) I was bored, so I bit. 17:47:08 And yes, you need to sort them. 17:47:34 ...which is again related to what I said -- it would be nice to have some higher level support, but none was needed so far. 17:47:47 OK. 17:50:14 -!- Hal9k- [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:40 Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:50:40 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:50:40 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 17:55:49 HG` [~HG@p5DC05C1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:58:14 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 17:58:20 djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:00:20 EbiDK [3e6b7ac3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.107.122.195] has joined #scheme 18:01:55 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:41 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:33:12 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 18:39:09 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-28-76-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:22 framling [~user@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:45:19 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:46:38 rudybot: eval (procedure-keywords (make-keyword-procedure (lambda x x))) 18:46:39 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 18:46:39 Riastradh: ; Value: () 18:46:40 Riastradh: ; Value#2: #f 18:51:12 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 18:51:17 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:52:37 -!- EbiDK [3e6b7ac3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.107.122.195] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:01:49 entrix [~entrix@95-28-33-45.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:02:08 -!- Guest17452 is now known as SmartViking 19:02:09 -!- SmartViking [~smartviki@ti0069a380-dhcp0827.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 19:02:09 SmartViking [~smartviki@unaffiliated/smartviking] has joined #scheme 19:02:28 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:00 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-28-33-45.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:17:12 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 19:17:31 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-159-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:18:23 githogori_ [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 19:18:28 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:28 -!- githogori_ [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:47 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 19:19:22 EbiDK [3e6b7ac3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.107.122.195] has joined #scheme 19:27:25 entrix [~entrix@89-178-50-238.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:27:39 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:34:34 -!- tdignan [~tom@pdpc/supporter/student/tdignan] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:35:07 tdignan1 [~tom@50.10.214.58] has joined #scheme 19:40:36 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:33 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:44:06 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 19:49:46 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:04:13 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 20:06:24 eli, what is the second argument to MAKE-KEYWORD-PROCEDURE good for? 20:14:24 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@128.91.39.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:06 I went through every use of it in Racket 5.0. It looks like in every case the second argument is used only as a performance hack. Is this an accurate assessment of the extent of its intended purpose? 20:16:51 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-173-064.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:20:54 masm [~masm@2.80.159.94] has joined #scheme 20:21:16 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 20:27:26 -!- entrix [~entrix@89-178-50-238.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:29:59 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:59 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:28 -!- XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:32:47 lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:12 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:18 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:36:17 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-166-197.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:36:23 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-186-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:38:48 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #scheme 20:45:41 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 20:45:49 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05C1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:47:22 So, how should CHAR-NUMERIC? be extended into the Unicode world? The definition in R6RS and R7RS draft 1 is broken. 20:47:42 (It refers to the Unicode property "Numeric", which does not exist.) 20:48:17 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.251.88] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 20:49:15 There are four proposals on the table: ASCII digits only, any digit, any numeric character, any character (including certain Chinese characters) sometimes used for numbering. 20:49:39 Flush it. 20:49:56 That needs a very strong rationale, since it is in IEEE Scheme. 20:49:58 (or, fix it to 0123456789 and effectively flush it) 20:50:31 "Existing features of IEEE Scheme may be removed only if a strong case can be made that they are fundamentally flawed." --WG1 charter 20:50:49 Say `Deprecated in the Unicode world. Use (char-in-set? x (string->char-set "0123456789")) for clarity instead.' 20:51:33 If we had character sets, maybe. 20:52:43 Excuse me for my stupid question, but why do we have a character type? 20:52:57 Hysterical raisins, mario-goulart. 20:53:02 Same with STRING-SET!. 20:53:16 -!- stis [~stis@82.182.254.46] has left #scheme 20:53:23 *jcowan* agrees on both counts. 20:53:27 What the R5RS calls strings ought to be fixed to be octet vectors and something new should handle the Unicode world. 20:54:39 R7RS is taking the position that strings are mutable vectors of characters, implementations MUST support the ASCII repertoire, MAY support any further repertoire they want, and MUST do so in a way consistent with Unicode. 20:55:09 Thanks, Riastradh. 20:55:21 It also has blobs, which may get renamed, but we haven't settled yet whether they are vectors of small unsigned exact integers or something more general. 20:55:46 ... which can be treated as vectors of u8. 20:56:44 Do you have a view on that point, Riastradh? 20:57:59 What would be more general? 21:04:45 Depends. 21:05:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:14 If you see these things as specialized vectors, then it makes sense to provide all the same procedures that vectors get: make-blob with and without fill argument, blob, blob-map, blob-for-each, *->blob, blob->*. 21:06:42 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has joined #scheme 21:07:04 -!- JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-166-197.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:11 If you see them as a general construct over which specialized vectors should be built, then only a very limited set of procedures make sense. You need blob-set and blob-ref, because you have to have access to the blob, but the higher-level procedures should be provided by the specialized versions. 21:07:24 s/the blob/the blob's bits/ 21:08:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:57 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:07 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:11:02 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has joined #scheme 21:11:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:22 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:11:22 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-166-197.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:50 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:51 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-44-141.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:21 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-44-141.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 21:13:45 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has joined #scheme 21:18:39 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:54 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:45 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:22:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-187-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:12 Blobs or u8-vectors (Floor wax or dessert topping?) 21:27:42 -!- minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:29:06 Riastradh: Yes, though "hack" is a strong word. 21:29:35 Without that argument a keyword function must be called with the extra two arguments, but with it, you get the zero runtime cost when there are no keywords in a call. 21:31:37 jcowan, the difference between the options you've described is not clear to me. In either case it's a sequence of octets, no? 21:33:48 bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-173-064.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:35:26 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:48:51 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 21:52:35 eli, how much is the cost of passing two more arguments when you're already consing up a rest list? 21:53:29 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:55 Riastradh: Probably neglegible (I didn't measure that directly), but you don't have to use a rest argument for that function. 22:01:16 Hmm. There's only one use of MAKE-KEYWORD-PROCEDURE's second argument in Racket 5.0 that doesn't always use rest arguments, and I doubt whether it's performance-critical -- NEGATE in collects/racket/function.rkt. 22:03:18 No. In one case it is a sequence of octets; in the other, it is a polymorphic object whose representation (like the representation of every object) is a sequence of octets. In the latter case there needs to be a primitive getter and setter, which can be in terms of octets, or bits, or whatever. 22:03:54 The whole definition could be replaced by (compose not f). 22:05:12 jcowan, if you choose octets as the primitive thing in the latter case, how is a blob not simply a sequence of octets? 22:06:20 aisa [~aisa@209.234.140.58] has joined #scheme 22:10:31 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:10:58 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable020.240-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:12:52 Riastradh: Conceptually. An integer is not a sequence of digits. 22:13:09 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.159.94] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:14 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:19 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 22:13:58 In the second view, what we have is a set of bits, for which an accessor and mutator is provided eight at a time on natural boundaries, for the sake of efficiency. 22:14:23 In the first view, we have a vector whose elements are limited to small non-negative integers. 22:14:57 -!- aisa [~aisa@209.234.140.58] has quit [Quit: aisa] 22:16:42 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:16 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:17:59 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:17 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:20 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 22:18:42 Riastradh: I'll try to measure the difference later. Perhaps also defining `negate' via `compose' would be fine. 22:19:03 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 22:19:14 IIRC, I did some measuring when I implemented that, but the results tend to change with the core. 22:19:30 eli, a little more to the point, it would enable you to focus your argument-crufting efforts on COMPOSE rather than scatter them throughout the system. 22:20:04 tupi [~david@189.60.161.65] has joined #scheme 22:21:09 Riastradh: That's true, and I certainly would do that if the cost isn't too prohibitive. Like I said, it's very possible that it would be fine now. 22:21:50 (And I definitely remember hating to write all of that just for a `negate', so it's not like I have some sado-masochistic motivation...) 22:23:35 BTW, one thing that we're sorely missing is cross-module inlining; that would make a significant change and render many such hacks unnecessary. 22:23:46 -!- JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-166-197.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:22 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-166-197.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:13 kuribas [~user@94-227-92-29.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 22:30:55 rudybot: eval ((lambda (#:x (x y) #:y (y x)) (list x y)) 0 1) 22:30:57 Riastradh: error: procedure eval:1:1: expects 0 arguments plus optional arguments with keywords #:x and #:y, given 2: 0 1 22:31:08 rudybot: eval ((lambda (#:x (x y) #:y (y x)) (list x y)) #:x 0 #:y 1) 22:31:08 Riastradh: ; Value: (0 1) 22:31:20 rudybot: eval ((lambda (#:x (x y) #:y (y x)) (list x y))) 22:31:22 Riastradh: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: y in module: 'program 22:31:34 rudybot: eval ((lambda (#:x (x y) #:y (y x)) (list x y)) #:x 0) 22:31:35 Riastradh: ; Value: (0 0) 22:31:41 rudybot: eval ((lambda (#:x (x y) #:y (y x)) (list x y)) #:y 0) 22:31:42 Riastradh: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: y in module: 'program 22:31:58 rudybot: eval ((lambda (#:y (y x) #:x (x y)) (list x y)) #:y 0) 22:31:59 Riastradh: ; Value: (0 0) 22:32:04 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 22:32:18 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:32:42 Hmm, so in Racket, it matters in what order you write the parameters, and it's the callee that does argument parsing, not the caller or linker. 22:33:15 (The order of parameters in the lambda is what matters, that is, not the order of arguments in the call site.) 22:36:12 I wrote an implementation for MIT Scheme (before I looked at Racket) in which the caller/linker does argument parsing (which can be done statically in many cases), but the default expressions can't refer to other parameters. 22:37:05 How important is it to be able to refer to other parameters in the default expressions? 22:37:34 Obviously, semantics-wise, it would be nice, of course. 22:40:59 matt5 [~sints@unaffiliated/matt5] has joined #scheme 22:49:04 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:50:50 I would not be a fan of that. 22:50:59 (parameter cross-reference) 22:51:52 Any particular reason why not? 22:52:46 You then need another rule barring circular references. 22:53:06 IOW, it is neither let nor let*. 22:54:53 I suppose one could introduce let+, where both forward and backward references are permitted but no circular ones, and define keyword semantics in terms of that. But is it really useful to have such a thing? 22:54:58 s/no/not 22:55:14 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:55:25 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #scheme 22:59:18 Well, obviously it would be a bit silly for every procedure application to compute a topological sort of a graph. 22:59:38 And that's not what Racket does. 22:59:49 Rather, Racket treats parameter specifiers like LET*. 23:00:13 Oh, okay. 23:04:10 turbofai` [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:04:34 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:04:48 -!- turbofai` is now known as turbofail 23:07:59 -!- devogon [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:02 -!- kuribas [~user@94-227-92-29.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:19:04 -!- user17 [~user@unaffiliated/user17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:28 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.105.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:20:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:35:45 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:35:57 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:37:00 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 23:38:54 fbass [~zac@75-173-81-110.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 23:39:25 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:34 cool, so anyone have any ideas on how I can set up a dev environment with vim to use scheme instead of emacs? I'm going to be reading sicp. 23:39:59 Here's how I set it up: :q! RET emacs RET 23:40:20 dude, I'm freaking serious man. 23:40:39 I don't want to use emacs. 23:41:00 Well, why not? 23:41:01 M-x viper RET 23:41:14 fbass: is that a superhero? 23:42:00 well, the technical reasons, other than the fact that I like vim better, is that emacs has poor syntax highlighting support, viper mode is not a snappy as vim, and there is no good line numbering. Those are just a few reasons. 23:42:24 Also, viper mode doesn't cover all of the vim commands. 23:43:02 Poor syntax highlighting? Poor line numbering? Can you be more specific? 23:43:08 also emacs has useless features like, m-x calendar, m-x calc. 23:43:52 Poor syntax highlighting: emacs has shit syntax highlighting compared with vim, and vim has syntax themes. Emacs will not number lines on the side. 23:43:53 fbass: vim requires very little setup for scheme, although you might want to tweak the highlighting a little and browse the user scripts. 23:43:56 I'm sure vim has absolutely no useless features. 23:44:35 Riastradh: when compared with emacs vim has _way_ fewer useless features. 23:45:05 also vim is more ergonomic than emacs' default keylayout. 23:45:15 I never use alt 23:45:36 I use caps for ctrl and do ctrl-[ for esc. it's much faster. 23:45:56 How is that any different from Emacs? 23:45:56 Vim is about 95% useless features, except people don't agree on which they are. 23:46:10 Let's not have a vim vs emacs battle: both have their own way of doing things and comparisons between the two are mostly religious. 23:46:23 cowan: disagree 23:46:23 I feel free to dis both, because I use "ex". 23:46:39 cow: most people just don't know very many of the features 23:46:44 I'm not asking about religious things, Obfuscate. I'm asking about practical things. 23:46:47 usually i just use notpad though. 23:46:52 Right. Which makes them effectively useless. 23:47:45 cow: only to u 23:48:12 Riastradh: The most important difference between vim and emacs is vim's modal nature, and arguments for and against don't matter a hell of a lot when some people despise modes while others want the shortest possible control sequences. 23:48:14 Obfuscate: so any ideas of how I can do this? any recommended plugins? 23:48:58 pyrony: That's my *point*. People only know about 5% of the feature set, so the remaining 95% is useless to them. Which 5% they know and use, of course, varies. 23:49:20 In Emacs people know less than 5%, but they don't expect to know any more, because they don't think of the feature set as fixed. 23:49:38 technically the main things I like better with vim than emacs is, ergonomic keybindings (almost no use of alt), quick snappy editing, better syntax highlighting, better line numbering. 23:49:57 yes, you said that already. 23:49:59 "Ex" has very few features and I use almost all of them (well, most of the "set" parameters I set and forget) 23:51:00 fbass: slimv (ie., slime for vim) is useful, and you can steal the highlighting extras from lisp syntax, if you like rainbow parens and such. 23:51:01 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:51:17 cool 23:51:29 ah, nice, I didn't slimv existed. What schemes does it work with? 23:52:00 Obfuscate, Emacs is modal too. There are plenty of brief commands in Emacs too, although you're not required to use them: all you actually need to know in Emacs is M-x and C-h. More importantly, Emacs is self-documenting and mnemonic with useful, consistent conventions for keys. Every time a Lisper accidentally zaps X is a testament to this. 23:52:31 All I know of vi is h,j,k,l,x, i, and (most important) Q. 23:52:58 fbass, do you mean putting line numbers in the left-hand column? It would surprise me if this were not implemented in GNU Emacs. 23:53:12 yeah. It's not implemented in emacs afaik. 23:53:20 All I know of emacs is M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead, Ctrl-G, and Ctrl-X Ctrl-C. 23:53:35 fbass: There's a mode for that. 23:53:38 jcowan so you really use ex as your main editor? 23:53:42 Yes, I really do. 23:53:52 Riastradh: I've used both vim and emacs for prolonged periods, and the differences to me were not earth-shaking or better for either: just different. 23:53:54 Or rather, I don't need to "use" it; it's part of me, like my fingers. 23:53:54 cool 23:54:19 fbass, you can use C-[ as a substitute for Meta in Emacs too. 23:54:34 that's an ascii feature ;) 23:54:42 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has left #scheme 23:55:19 It is not limited to US-ASCII-based terminals. In GNU Emacs, it works also for X11 frames. 23:56:24 emacs doesn't have blue wavy lines. 23:56:49 also the emacs status bar is rediculous. 23:57:24 vim is more elegant 23:57:44 *offby1* pouts 23:57:55 *bremner* lost track of who is trolling whom. Please wear uniforms or something. 23:57:59 I don't know what this business of blue wavy lines is, but if by the status bar you mean the mode line, you can always change that to look however you like. 23:58:26 :set ruler is enough for me. 23:58:37 *offby1* flies his freak flag at half-mast 23:59:11 *bremner* hopes that is not a euphemism 23:59:52 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme